No idea if I'll do this more often but here's another response to Damien Cox's "blog" (ie extra column that didn't make the newspaper because it wasn't good enough). I submitted part of it as a comment so we'll see if it gets 'moderated'.
You swallowed Kostopolous' BS about Van Ryn "turning at the last second" like a good Anti-Leaf kool-aid drinker.
Watch the replay and show where he turned at the last second. And what about Kostopolous' forearm shiver to Van Ryn's name plate that served only to ensure that his head would be driven into the glass? What good NHL play was he making then?
Before continuing, here is video of the hit on Van Ryn again and try to see if you can find any evidence of whatever the hell The Omen thinks that he sees:
No intent to injure. Just a good play gone bad.
So no, Kostopoulos doesn't deserve a suspension, although the nature of the hit mandated his expulsion from the match. He probably will get at least one game off, however, for making that play in a nationally televised Montreal-Toronto game with the entire hockey world watching. If it happens in Nashville in a game between the Predators and Blue Jackets, we probably never hear about it.
But he doesn't deserve a suspension.
As someone with two functioning eyes and a brain that doesn't focus on how to anger Leaf fans first I can tell you that hits like Saturday's have in fact happened in games without the Leafs or Habs and they have attracted some attention. It helps in building strawmen if you didn't select something that is so obviously ridiculous.
Now if you want to change the rules, that's another thing. If you want to go to no-touch icing, or let the goalies play the puck anywhere they want again, or outlaw hitting within five feet of the end boards, then you might avoid that kind of play in the future.
Otherwise, it's going to happen in this sport of high-speed, violent collisions. But this wasn't dirty. This wasn't Cam Janssen hitting Tomas Kaberle five Mississippis after the puck was gone or repeat offender Ryan Hollweg hammering an opponent from behind for the zillionth time.
Of course, if you build one strawman he might get lonely so you need to give him (or her) someone to play with (that's what she said!). Of course, the only thing that would have prevented this kind of hit is a change to the rules. Well, the only thing except for enforcing the existing rules. And you can even take your pick!:
Rule 42 - Boarding
42.1 Boarding - A boarding penalty shall be imposed on any player or goalkeeper who checks an opponent in such a manner that causes the opponent to be thrown violently in the boards. The severity of the penalty, based upon the degree of violence of the impact with the boards, shall be at the discretion of the Referee. There is an enormous amount of judgment involved in the application of this rule by the Referees.
The onus is on the player (or goalkeeper) applying the check to ensure his opponent is not in a vulnerable position and if so, he must avoid the contact. However, there is also a responsibility on the player with the puck to avoid placing himself in a dangerous and vulnerable position. This balance must be considered by the Referees when applying this rule.
Any unnecessary contact with a player playing the puck on an obvious "icing" or "off-side" play which results in that player being knocked into the boards is "boarding" and must be penalized as such. In other instances where there is no contact with the boards, it should be treated as "charging."
Rule 44 - Checking from Behind
44.1 Checking from Behind A check from behind is a check delivered on a player who is not aware of the impending hit, therefore unable to protect or defend himself, and contact is made on the back part of the body. When a player intentionally turns his body to create contact with his back, no penalty shall be assessed.
And what happens if supplementary discipline is needed? Well, there is a process for that too:
Rule 29 - Supplementary Discipline
29.1 Supplementary Discipline In addition to the automatic fines and suspensions imposed under these rules, the Commissioner may, at his discretion, investigate any incident that occurs in connection with any Pre-season, Exhibition, League or Playoff game and may assess additional fines and/or suspensions for any offense committed during the course of a game or any aftermath thereof by a player, goalkeeper, Trainer, Manager, Coach or non-playing Club personnel or Club executive, whether or not such offense has been penalized by the Referee.
If an investigation is requested by a Club or by the League on its own initiative, it must be initiated within twenty-four (24) hours following the completion of the game in which the incident occurred.
I can't really fault Damien for not being aware of these rules since it took me all of 15 seconds to google "NHL Rulebook" and another 30 to find the relevant entries. A multimedia star like Cox can't waste 45 seconds researching his opinion piece so that he doesn't look like an ignorant asshole.
The funny thing is that Damien had a much different reaction to Ryan Hollweg's dirty hit (similar in style, much less dangerous in its result):
Let's be clear. This oaf on skates doesn't score goals, or set up plays, or generate a forecheck or even protect his teammates. Ever since he's been in the league, he has been known as a player who does one of three things every time he's on the ice:
1) Takes about 25 strides and charges an opponent. 2) Leaves his feet to hit an opponent. 3) Hits opponents from behind.
He's a dangerous, dangerous hockey player, and for all the wrong reasons. Everybody knew it before he got here after his years of playing for the Rangers. You might remember him as the player who helped Chris Simon snap last season. Well, snap the first time.
His proposed solution: A team imposed ban. For a franchise that is so much classier (kind of like being more maverick-y) than the rest of the league Cox has hit upon what they can do to continue to earn that self-anointed title: Suspend Kostopolous for as long as Mike Van Ryn will be out of action. Right now, the Leafs defenceman is out four to six weeks just for the broken pinky but his concussion is the big worry. As that article notes, Patrice Bergeron just returned this season after being put out by a similarly dirty hit. The penalty? two games.
But wait, if two strawmen are good then three strawmen would be great!
But others will differ, and some will suggest the play never would have happened if the Leafs had a goon in their lineup. Those people you'll never convince of anything, and the presence of Georges Laraque didn't stop the Leafs from steamrolling Carey Price on three separate occasions on Saturday night.
This continues Damien's crusade against fighting. Maybe he should tell his colleague Mark Zwolinski that he thinks that he's a dummy for suggesting that the Leafs bring up Andre Deveaux from the Marlies. Note the language he uses for the three times the Leafs came in contact with Jim Carey Price. "Steamrolling" Jim Carey Price three times? Grabovski went after a rebound and slid Price out of the way and Blake was hit into Price after his collision with a Habs defenceman. Of course, their intent was a good hockey play (going after a rebound) so we can ignore the outcome right? Oh, it's just another double standard for the Leafs? Quel surprise.
Finally, Damien manages to keep The Spin going with a nice admission that maybe Van Ryn isn't the C-level defender that he said he was just one post down the page:
The unfortunate thing for Van Ryn is that after missing time last year with wrist problems, his game was coming to together nicely in Toronto, and then this happens. Game's just not fair sometimes.
The real unfortunate result is that the real argument is being ignored thanks to Cox and his coterie of strawmen. What does the league have to do to eliminate these kinds of hits is what should be asked of people. One way is to signal an intent to deal severely with this kind of filth so that hits like Kostopolous' result in the league jumping on the offender with both feet.
It's a shame that someone that had such a great time slamming Hollweg (rightly) for his hit on Pietrangelo now thinks that it's all rainbows and mistaken intentions after a Leaf is left with a broken finger, nose, a serious concussion, and is facing an unknown amount of time on the sidelines. Yeah, the game's not fair sometimes but you can always count on The Omen never being fair.
PPP, another well reasoned point. Too bad Cox won’t pay attention, but maybe someone else will.
And while I voted for 11 – 20 games, and some will think that is only because I’m a Leafs fan, let me say this right here and now:
I’d have been for Hollweg getting the same number of games for his stupidity earlier this season. And if he ever is allowed to play again for the Leafs, and he does something similar, I’ll be leading the charge to suspend his ass for a quarter of the season.
Suspensions have to have balls if they are to be taken seriously.
I saw Cox had an article on it (I avoid the Star sports section, but it was in the columns listing) and I couldn’t resist. I read, then puked, then looked up to the heavens in askance, then puked some more.
And the worst part? Is that people actually are swallowing that tripe, that Van Ryn did something wrong. He didn’t. He didn’t ‘turn into the check’ as some have alleged. He didn’t ‘change direction at the last second’. He continued on the path he was clearly on for 30 seconds before the hit.
I don’t know Kostopoulos, but I’ll assume he wasn’t trying to ‘really injure’ Van Ryn. Fine. But you did, and it is clealy against the rules, so sit the eff down and smarten up.
the “turned at the last second” is the WEAKEST argument there is. Seriously, any of you ever say that in reference to Hollweg’s next hit from behind, I’ll go all Bruce Banner on you.
Hockey is Fast. Capital Crack Loving Methed up F. Anything that happens in one second, may as well not be happening. Anyone who uses that argument to absolve a play has either never played hockey, or never seen a game live. Van Ryn had his face to the boards the ENTIRE time, he didn’t turn into them. If he did, it still wouldn’t matter. Pieterangelo turned into the boards when Hollweg nailed him, and I still though it was weg’s fault. A hit to the back is the most dangerous play imagineable in hockey, especially at that speed, with that size of players. Not to mention the sharpened knives on everyone’s feet, and the rock hard playing surface…
but I digress. There really is no exuse for this kind of hit. I take Kostopolous at his word, in that he never meant to injure Van Ryn. He doesn’t strike me as that kind of player. I still think, on this play, he had more than enough opportunity to let up. Given their proximity to the end boards, his forearm shiver to “finish the check” was probably more instictual than attempt to injure, but that’s the piece the rules should address. Near the end boards, guys should not be flying into one another.
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
I agree with you! On all fronts. It doesn’t matter if he did turn at the last second, but he didn’t, so bringing it up is moot. He didn’t do ANYTHING wrong. And I felt the same way about Hollweg. Also, even if you can’t stop, for the most part, you can do something to soften the blow.
As for the idea that it is instinct, well, if I can train my dog to not pee on the carpet, I’d like to think hockey players can learn not to deliver forearm shivs to their opponents. Call me an optimist.
just the threat of you going Bruce Banner was causing me to quiver in my boots, and I wanted to state up front that I’m with you. I blame my inability to be clear on my rage at Cox and Habs fans who defend that hit.
i always liked the “put them on a bicycle, tie the bike to the back of your car, pull them down the street, and then cut the rope as you near the ER” approach, but that’s just me
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
but I don’t feel safe riding my bike in Toronto. Maybe I’ll just open the door of the cab and push ’em out as we near the ER. It would save me having to explain the stab wounds to the doctors. Nosy bastards…
i almost severed my middle finger on my left hand in a too crazy to be true bagel slicing accident. My parents car at the time was a 1980 Citation, and i ruined the upholstery on the way to the ER, forever ruining their chances of obtaining any kind of fair re-sell value.
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
was a 1974 (catch a theme here?) Toyota Corolla, 4 speed, i called the colour “Gobstopper yellow” becuase it had that oxidization effect that made it look powdery, like a gobstopper you sucked on, then took out of your mouth and let dry.
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
I’m far too much of a city-girl for this line of discussion. I recognize the words you two are using, but I had no idea they could be put together like that.
in my theory that Cox didn’t watch this whole game, he definitely missed the initial hit and this is fairly concrete evidence that he hasn’t watched the replay, and is basing his entire judgment solely on Kostopolous’ BS excuse of a lie
The only people I can see defending Kostopolous’ hit are the die-hard, rabid Habs fans who have lost all ability for reasoning.
Now I am tempted to get a Habs jersey with Cox’s name on the back, I just need a number… 67?
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
Hee. I like that idea muchly. Though my theory is that years ago, someone on the Leafs ran off with his wife, stole his car, and killed his dog, and he’s been bitter ever since.
But really, any money you give to the Leafs just supports their years of mediocrity, and you don’t want to do that, do you? You’re not a sheep, are you?
Damien is from Hamilton, so the anti-Toronto thing is kind of bred into him.
Though my theory is that years ago, someone on the Leafs ran off with his wife, stole his car, and killed his dog, and he’s been bitter ever since.
Reminds me of the old joke about what happens when you play country music backwards – you get your car back, you get your dog back, you get your girl back….
But, and maybe I’m crazy here, but shouldn’t someone who covers sports for a particular city not be prejudiced against the team and/or city itself? And if they are born and bred with this distaste, maybe they aren’t the best choice, even if they can write (And yes, I recognize that Cox isn’t exactly a geniuis with the prose) as they won’t be able to do their job. Shouldn’t there be at least a pretense of objectivity? Anyone?
And Hamilton, I’ll make you this promise:
You take Cox back and bury him in the yard, and I’ll smooth things over with MLSE so you can get an NHL team. M’kay?
That’s just really grown up. Behaviour like that highlights why they should get their own NHL team, what with how they can handle competition and realize that sports are supposed to be fun.
I can’t wait till they get a team. I bet they’ll take tips from Ottawa city council and the Sens on how to get fans in the seats.
Well, in that case, I conclude that a lot of Hamiltonians are devoid of sense and reason, and I’m surprised that natural selection hasn’t weeded them out of the gene pool.
And you know what? If I were them, I’d just buy a team and move it there, and then tell the Leafs/NHL to see them in court. I doubt the law would side with Toronto on Hamilton being in their region (or whatever term they use.)
I imagine it is mutation due to the toxic effluent pumped into the harbour there that causes them to be kind of messed up. Lots of heavy metals around too.. Not just the Slayer variety.
I read your line about heavy metals, and my brain said “Slayer”. You should either be flattered, or terrified that we seem to be on the same wavelength.
Before we go all “let’s bash the Hammer”, I’M from the Hammer…(though maybe that explains more than I care to admit).
I love the Hammer. There are some damn ugly parts of the city, and there are some damn stupid people – but you could say that about most places. The municipal government has fucked up at every possible turn, ensuring that the city stays on its knees. But I sure as hell hope that there is a visionary leader who can step up and turn that place around.
I don’t blame the Leafs for blocking the city from having a team – I blame local government’s lack of leadership, I blame a stagnant economy and inability to attract new industry (again, local gov’t), and I blame an arena that was hastily built to accomodate a team and is now badly undersized and unsuitable for NHL hockey.
There is something odd about the Hammer and TO sports though – Cox lives there, but so does Jeff Blair (he lives in the former home of a friend of mine) and I think Brunt does too…
Wow. That does explain a lot. I’m every so sorry, and am pleased to see you try to rise above your roots. Way to go!
Oh, I kid.
I don’t have anything against the Hammer (in principle) or you (…yet).
But if people there have nothing better to do than blame Toronto and spew invectives, well, I’ve got no use for them. They started it, but I can damn well finish it.
And really, in a battle of wits and sarcasm, I’m gonna win.
Because you are ALWAYS wrong. Live it, learn it, love it. :)
And again, I say hey! That’s a myth perpetuated in order to take the responsibility of women for their actions away from them, and make us into ‘poor little things that can’t control themselves’.
You are always wrong. That statement is something you should practice in your daily lives, emblazon onto your puny brains, and embrace as a common fact.
Do you understand now, or do you need some face time with sweet lady brick?
Okay, fine. I enjoy the witty repartee and the banter. It makes my day. But that doesn’t mean that there doesn’t come a time when dudes should bend to my will. Can we agree on that?
I suppose that given the right circumstances, lighting and state of inebriation, there most likely should come a time when dudes should bend to your will.
I have to assume you are bating me, here, aren’t you? ;)
I have no need of lighting and a certain level of inebriation to bend dudes to my will. It just happens. They know when to fall in line. And they know it is totally worth it.
And I’m glad you’ve figured out that a comment like that is just an invitation, so good on you for putting it in yourself (TWSS/BCWW)
And as for the knowing me and seeing where I’m coming from, I’m going to assume that was supposed to be a compliment, and I’m taking it as such, even if it wasn’t.
Please. I’ve been holding back on all my rightness, so as to not make you all jealous. But seeing as you’re giving me all this lip, I’ll bring you the full brunt of it next time. Deal?
you didn’t read the comment I made where I likened myself to Sean Avery, in that I’m mouthy but don’t follow through when challenged to a fight, did you?
Are life-long Hamiltonians, and they told me that the general feeling in the city is that the Leafs are to blame for the city’s inability to obtain an NHL franchise.
So no, not everyone in Hamilton blames the Leafs, but a lot do even though my friends don’t.
And yes, the government there has issues… I think it has something to do with a mayor who publicly has well-known connections to the mob being a major factor. I’m not surprised though given that Hamilton has the 2nd highest land-tax in the country (2nd only to Montreal), yet the town constantly looks like it’s falling apart and ready to crumble any second, and town hall is always complaining about bankruptcy.
The mountains are fairly nice, RBG is beautiful. The east end is ghetto but the west end where the university is is quite decent, Dundas is also gorgeous.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
You or Jared. I gotsa look out for my fanfic-keteers (we need a better name than that. And did we find people to fill the roles of the DA and chief of police?)
got ourselves a new insult. Instead of calling someone a moron, or idiot, or whatever, simply call them “The Damien Cox of [insert topic, area of discussion or what-have-you]”
Don’t use it lightly, however, as calling someone the DC of something isn’t easily retracted.
all you haters don’t get that Lucas was making a statement on interracial relations, and what better way to show your respect to another culture than to portray them as mildly retarded and terribly annoying?
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
That’s Billy, plain as day…I can quote him, I just didn’t dig him as much as some nerds.
You’re compiling quite a list of “things Mabel must do at PPPub nights”:
1. Tell more inappropriate stories about going to bars
2. Recite the grade 9 drama class speech
I still remember the lines, in German, that I had in the role of “Train Conductor” from our production of “Cabaret”. I can break those out for you if you like…
In Hamilton, it was a sign of a beating to come if you recited ANYTHING by Shakespeare. I just stuck to the well-known stuff so that the beatings would be tempered somewhat.
“He’s a nerd…but a nerd with only perfunctory Shakespeare knowledge. Fuck him up just a little bit!”
Yes, a weird ‘little kid’. Totally normal adult, but weird kid. Suuuure.
That’s a lot of stuff in your brain. Mine is still replete with song lyrics from anything from the 50s or 60s, large chunks of Shakespeare, simpsons quotes, details about the wars of the roses, and sports stats.
There are some truly beautiful parts of the city. I actually did grow up in the east end, and there are even some great areas out that way (as long as you stay out of the northeast end).
It breaks my heart whenever I go back and go into downtown. There are still lots of gorgeous buildings from late 19th/early 20th century that are probably beyond saving now because the city has let them go to shit.
I was reading that article, wondering “Hm, how is he going to find a way to tie this into his anti-fighting” stance. And at the end, it was like he couldn’t do it so he just gave up and threw it in anyways.
If you want to argue that the hit was OK, you can’t turn around and criticize Hollweg for doing it for the “zillionth time”. If it’s dirty, it’s dirty no matter how many times a player does it. Repeat offenders deserve harsher suspensions for sure, but it doesn’t magically switch over from clean to dirty after the fifth time.
Unless, of course, you only want to criticize the Leafs who do it, which of course if the whole point.
Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.
overcame a drug addiction (coke maybe…) to become an absolute fox.
DJ is married to Valeri Bure.
The Olsen twins are rail thin, look weird, and somehow still rich and famous.
That is why I refrained from dirty thoughts or comments because I’ll glance slightly over and be forced to promptly call for the police and surrender to them when they arrive
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
Whenever someone mentions Valeri Bure, I always think about when the all-star game was in TO a few years back. They had miked Lindros, and he and someone else were sitting on the bench making fun of Valeri, saying “hey…Waleri…over here Waleri” in fake Russian accents. Nowhere near as funny as I’m sure they thought it was, but that always pops into my head.
Their lines of clothing that they endorse has been linked to child labour. That is why they’re rich, they’re living off the suffering of third-world-orphans.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
I actually agreed with him on Hollweg – how can he do a 180 and turn into a fucking apologist for anyone who hits from behind. What’s that? Oh, right – he’s Damien Cox.
Like you know how we all used to think the world was flat and you’ll just fall off the universe if you sailed too far? I always thought that would happen if we drove outside of Toronto.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
i met a guy down here (we’re actually good friends now) who claims he’s from somewhere called “BeeSee” in a town named “Quel OwnA.” I assumed he meant something in France, because I’ve never heard of BeeSee
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
How will you see all the links that LD, Jared and others post? Did they give no thought to your needs? I’d see HR about that right quick if I were you.
How will you see all the links that LD, Jared and others post? Did they give no thought to your needs? I’d see HR about that right quick if I were you.
just for that I try to remember to put a little description of what it is after the link. You know, for my fans
Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing
on a play that easy, he’d scoop up the puck, skate back to the red line, stop, loop up at the goalie, look down at the puck, stick his tongue out of his mouth as he concentrates really hard, breath through his mouth and then let a weak wrister go, aimed directly at the goalies chest.
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
A reckless and irresponsible hit, but I’m not so sure it was that malicious.
Van Ryn fakes curling around the net and stops suddenly facing the end boards. I think we underestimate just how quickly incidents like these unfold. It was a split second that Kostopoulos had to register VR’s change in course and try to react to it. But he did not seem to show any sort of restraint, as you said PPP.
No player is ever at fault for getting rammed into the end boards, but what VR did is exactly what you’re told not to do in minor hockey. The smart play was to follow up on his curl around the net.
But that doesn’t make it right. And I’m sorry, but I don’t see this “change of direction”. Even if I did, I’d still side with “don’t hit people from behind into the boards with a forearm shiv”. And if the roles were reversed, I’d still be all for a suspension. I don’t want players injured if there is any way to stop it.
VR starts to swing his body as if he’s going to head behind the net and stops while facing the boards. It seems to me that TK was reacting to that turn that VR fakes.
Cuz that still isn’t the way the game is played. I don’t think he wanted to hurt him, but he did, and in doing so, broke a number of rules. He should be suspended. You need to make the punishment hurt, in the hopes that he (and the countless others who do the same thing) will learn better behaviour.
…but if TK thought VR was going behind the net, why didn’t he follow suit and make a left turn? If VR had gone behind the net would TK have thrown himself into the boards?
I do agree that these things happen quickly, and you can see from the look on TK’s face that he didn’t mean to hit him that way. But he did mean to hit him and knock him off the puck.
I just watched the replay again, and if you watch carefully right up to the hit, you can clearly see Kostopolous started to lean forward as he skated into Van Ryn.
He leaned forward, that means he put his fucking weight into the check. Didn’t mean to hit him that way? That’s completely bullshit. If the intention was not to slam him into the boards, Kostopolous would’ve got into the hit with his body straight, when you lean forward you’re putting your weight into it and that means the hit was fucking intentional in all its form.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
…I just watched it again too. Just before he hits Van Ryn, TK does lean forward, and brings his hands up, and then kind of propels forward through Van Ryn, into the boards. So yeah, I think I was incorrect in saying that he didn’t mean to hit him that way. He did.
The look on his face post-hit indicates to me that he was locked in and doing what he thinks his job is, only realizing afterwards what the outcome was.
Either way, we can debate intent/non-intent all day. I think we can all agree it was a dirty hit and it has to stop, regardless of what the player means to do.
“The look on his face post-hit indicates to me that he was locked in and doing what he thinks his job is, only realizing afterwards what the outcome was.”
Van Ryn changed direction because the play was blocked off. Tk came into the boards full bore, he should have let up long before he got there. His intial intent was to finish his check, and I give him full marks for playing the body, but he knew how close to the end boards they were long before Van Ryn ever turned and changed direction.
That’s the piece that needs to be taught all the way down to midget. Respect the player, play the puck in those positions. Playing the body in open ice is good hockey, but down against the boards, too many scary things have happened.
All that said, I totally agree that all of this happened so quickly, it’s much easier to say what could have happened, when truth be told, the game is so fast, and the players react more instinctually than via a plan. That just goes back to my original thought of in how the game is coached…
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
TSN has a good clip showing Van Ryn and Kostopolous’ hit including 4 seconds before. Van Ryn started heading towards the boards with Kostopolous on his tail for a full 3 seconds. During this entire time, the replay shows Van Ryn always had his back to Kostopolous, Van Ryn turned his head back once to see to Kostopolous coming at him about 2 seconds before the hit. At no point did Van Ryn change his direction, nor did Kostopolous.
Kostopolous had ample time to react, 3 seconds is a freaking lot, in traffic design we use 2.5 seconds as a conservative reaction time for your average driver, because more then 80% of the population has a reaction time lower then that. 3 seconds was way more unless Kostopolous has some sort of mental illness. The replay also showed Kostopolous had his arms up and out.
This isn’t a tough call, not even remotely. Intent to injure? Perhaps not, but Kostopolous knew what he was doing, the hit from behind into the boards was absolutely there, the evidence is clear-cut, the intention to hit Van Ryn into the boards was there.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
You’ve summed it up perfectly, Winkle. Except for the traffic design part because I don’t know anything about that, this is exactly what I’ve been trying to tell people who read and repeat The Omen as if he’s some sort of expert, which he clearly isn’t. Kostopolous followed him in from the blueline and never saw anything but numbers.
You can’t knowingly hit from behind and not have an intent to injure (unless I’m misinterpreting your last paragraph).
Play the video and count the seconds, TK should have shown more restraint as the pace at which he is barreling down on VR is very reckless… but that’s your typical fourth liner trying to leave his mark. His pace only confirms the point that there wasn’t malicious intent. There was no relenting at that speed, which makes it reckless. I don’t think there’s intent to injure here.
I do not believe Kostopolous meant to hurt Van Ryn, he was overly gung-ho on the hit, and I will give him the benefit on the doubt that he underestimated the impact of his hit, he intented to hit but didn’t think he would hurt Van Ryn that badly. Not an excuse though.
Also you proved my point, it doesn’t matter who you are, no one is going to skate full speed and barrel into the boards straight on, NO ONE. I have never seen any hockey player do that, if they do go barreling into the boards, they always turn either to the side or around so they hit the boards on the side or back, no one barrels into the board so they can get a face full of glass, it’s pure instinct. The fact that Kostopolous went into it straight on means he knew and intended to end up with Van Ryn between himself and the boards, that’s the only explanation.
I already said, Kostopolous wasn’t trying to hurt Van Ryn, but he did intend to check into the boards hard from behind, but underestimated the impact of his hit.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
I’m simply pointing out that there isn’t intent to injure on TK’s part. I’m not opposed 3 game suspension for being incredibly reckless.
If the NHL wants to seriously crack down on these incidents, they’ll dish out 3 games for dangerous play, not just when the victim is sidelined as a result of the play.
Determining intent isn’t an easy thing to do, and when you get right down to it, all you can judge people on is their actions and the results. You can’t really know what he wanted to do, so you can’t really go light on him because he didn’t mean it.
3 game suspensions aren’t any sort of deterrent. Start suspensions at 10 games and then maybe people will start training themselves out of the bad behaviour.
A perfect example is the Kostitsyn (I think) hit-from-behind on Stajan in the Leafs’ prior game against the Habs. That was worse than what TK did Saturday. The fact that Stajan (fortunately) wasn’t seriously injured should take nothing away from the sheer danger of what that Tit pulled:
Tit’s hit is from behind and can be constituted as “dirty” but two points;
1) His elbows were down, he checked Stajan with his shoulders
2) There is no clear indication that Tit leaned into the hit, in fact the lead-up to the hit in the video showed that Tit went in straight
You can make the argument that Tit was just skating really hard and ran into Stajan with too much speed. Sorry but I don’t see how this hit was worst then Van Ryn’s injury or not.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
I see your point. And it is true that sometimes suspensions don’t happen because the player wasn’t injured. That must change. Just because no one got hurt on that hit once, doesn’t mean someone won’t get hurt the next time, and if there isn’t a suspension, you can bet there will be a next time.
i think, regardless the player, be it a 4th liner or a 1st liner, the hit from behind shows a complete lack of respect for your opponent. Even if, after the game you say al the right things like “golly gee whiz, i had no idea that skating full bore into that guy with my 200+ pound frane and pasting his face into the glass would actually HURT him.”
that’s worse than the “I’m sorry you feel that way” apology, which puts the onus of the offense back on the individual you’re supposed to be apologizing to. If he said: “I was just finishing my check, it all happened so fast” I’d totally agree with him, but not this half assed attempt to absolve himself of any wrong doing.
Also, i like how there’s two ‘tits on the Habs. Symetrical and appealing to my juvenile inner 5 year old sense of humour. Now when they play, I’ll think boobies…
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
He got 2 for his hit in the pre-season and then 3 for his hit on Pietrangelo. Those were automatic suspensions for accumulating game misconducts. He didn’t actually get any supplementary discipline.
And he should have, in my mind. He does dangerous stuff and is lucky that no one has been too seriously injured (at least, as far as I know) by his actions. Throw the book at people who do that type of stuff.
I agree. A suspension of 5 games or less really does nothing to send a message. I liked where they were going with the big suspensions to Simon and Downie.
3 games for anything serious enough to warrant suspension is pointless.
I don’t get why they occasionally give out big(ish) suspensions and then back off. You have to be consistent, whether you are training a puppy, boyfriend or hockey player.
Especially for his hit on Pieterangelo. That was dirty, and they shoulda tacked on some more games if the 3 games was just an automatic suspension for being a repeat offender.
if there were set suspensions for a hit like that, say 10 games, and if you are a repeat offender (Hollweg, I’m looking in your direction here) then you get an additional 3-5 games added on top of the 10, just for being a dumbass who doesn’t learn?
‘Weg should still be sitting for that hit I think. If he was, the decision on TK would probably landed more in our court, and he’d be seeing something closer to ten games.
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
"Woman… woe-man… whoooa-man. She was a thief, you got to belief, she stole my heart and my cat. Judy, Betty, Josie and those hot Pussycats… they make me horny, on Saturday morny… girls of cartoo-ins will leave me in ruins… I want to to be Betty’s Barney. Hey Jane… get me off this crazy thing… called love. "
Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock
and butter? Do you work for the Butter Council of Canada or something? I get it. I’m on my way to the store right now to pick some up. Will that make you happy?
(and no, I don’t kid. I have to go buy groceries, and butter is on the list.)
True, but you gotta have an escape plan. No matter the situation. So, I always do, and pray I never need to break the seal on the folder with all the escape details.
If they can manage to get through the west without too much damage, I’ll be pleased. Not that I don’t think they can handle it, but mostly because in recent years west coast trips haven’t always gone well. And if I’ve learned anything from the media, it is that if it was true last year with a different bunch of players, it’ll be true this year.
The media is so wise. No sense in playing the games, really. Just have the sages write up the standings as they see them unfolding and print them by early summer so we can see who won.
That’s a great idea! Think of all the money that could be saved – they wouldn’t have to pay people to work concession stands, or take tickets or anything. The teams that aren’t doing well will start turning a profit, and all of a sudden the league will be out of financial troubles.
Good cookies can work wonders. When I left my last job, it was made clear that I was going to have to stop by occasionally with cookies for everyone. I think they miss my cookies even more than they miss me.
High expectations are a good thing to have. I’m the same way. And I certainly wouldn’t want you to promise anything you don’t think you can keep.
And I’ll bring it. Don’t you worry about that. I may be a chirpy little thing, but unlike Avery, I do occasionally backup my chirping. Especially when challenged.
and it is appreciated. Both by LD (I assume, who doesn’t want company in their emo-ness?) and by the rest of us. And by the rest of us, I mean the people who count. Which is me.
wow. Doesn’t really answer LD’s philosophical construct, as it was, in fact, published. But so many things to discuss here:
1) someone wrote a poem intending to combine emo and hockey (though somehow it ends up being about the need to pee, which I’m not sure qualifies as emo per se)
2) good on you for finding this…
3) the best part is the single comment that someone named “Yoonoos Peerbocus” left. It reads “pleasant piece……………………………………”
Alright all – it’s been incredibly fun to “work from home” with all of you today. I’m off to tend goal for the ball hockey team of destiny…wish me luck!