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The Dissenting View: It's too late to turn back, here we go...

Editor's Note: Since it looks like this Burke thing is as good as done why not take a look at where each side stands. For the dissent I present MF37 of Bitter Leaf Fan fame who will outline exactly why the Brian Burke hiring should not be a slam dunk.

Before we begin, I want to hitch up my grandpa pants, get my favourite cane and take up a seat on the front porch so I can yell at you kids.

The Leafs are hiring a new GM to help get them out of the desert and away from a plague of meddling owners. It’s a decision that needs to be entirely separate from and outside of the fact that someone needs to smite the likes of Strachan, Simmons, Cox, Berger or Kypreos (and feel free to sub-in your own favourite media target here - it's pretty much an endless list).

If hiring a GM was all about f*cking with the media, I’d be blogging about the little known hockey skills of Dick Cheney, Larry Flynt or John "Damien Cox is going to get his tits caught in a wringer" Mitchell (ok, he’s dead, but he would have been great).

But the Leafs's next hire has to be bigger than that.

It has to be about building a champion, ending a drought, transforming a culture and the restoration of hope,

The media are like flies at a murder scene - they aren't, and should never be, the focus.

Now get off my lawn.

[muttering]kids today with the hair and the music and the piercings…[/muttering]

Star-divide

Facts are to the mind what food is to the body - the other Burke (Edmund)

The limited success that the Leafs, and by extension we fans, have enjoyed has unarguably happened when two conditions were met:

1. A professional, veteran hockey executive was at the helm;
2. Ownership interference was minimal.

Consider this: Jim Gregory made the Leafs a pretty competitive club from 1973 to 78, bringing in some of this franchise’s most famous faces: Salming, Sittler, MacDonald, Palmateer. The Leafs had a sparkling resurgence under the stewardship of Cliff Fletcher nearly 20 years ago, resulting in Gilmour and Sundin in the Blue and White, and then there were  remarkable runs with Pat Quinn not so long ago.

What do these eras have in common? They brought fans hope, restored respectability to an oft-tarnished fracnhise and they all collapsed spectacularly when ownership got too involved or brought in weak executives.

Which leads us to Brian Burke, who, according to the media, will be the next GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs. It's no longer a matter of if, it's only a matter of when.

Burke certainly satisfies these two criteria: he has an admittedly impressive hockey resume and a reputation as someone who would never stand for, nor suffer, any interference from the likes of Peddie and Tannenbaum (although it should be noted that Peddie has stated explicitly and frequently that he will step down as President of the Leafs as part of this hiring process, so it won't be just Burke who gets the so-called Colangelo deal, it will be standard operating procedure for all the prospective candidates).

But what else does Burke bring to the table?

This ain't Anaheim

As many strides as Fletcher and Wilson have made (and really, how hard would it be to look better than the fiasco that was JFJ?) the 2008-09 Toronto Maple Leafs are not Bryan Murray’s Anaheim Ducks.

Burke is not walking into a team that’s a tweak or two away from contention and just a few years removed from a Stanley Cup run. This Leafs squad is not loaded with young talent like Getzlaf, Perry and Penner. Toskala is no Gigeure and, as far as I know, no current Leafs have a brother like Scott Nidermayer who’s a UFA and just dying to sign with the Blue and White, nor is a player like Selanne is not standing by waiting to give an (adopted) home-town discount.

Unlike the situation he inherited in Anaheim, Burke is going to have to do some heavy lifting to get the Leafs on track. In order to do so, he’s going to have to succeed at the draft, manage the cap and get a little lucky. He's one for three on that count in Anaheim and, to my mind, that's not good enough to be the next GM of the Leafs.

Burke's Draft History

1999
Brian Burke pulled off a great draft day deal that landed the Canucks the Sedin twins. The rest of the draft can be filed under "name that ECHL player"

2000
Burke had seven picks, they've combined for a total of 6 NHL games played with zero points.

2001
Burke used his first round draft pick to land R. J. Umberger who was traded before he ever laced them up for the Canucks for 13 games of Martin Rucinsky. Burke also drafted Kevin Bieksa, who was looking all sorts of good before getting injured last year. The rest of his picks have played a combined total of 67 NHL games

2002
Burke traded the Canucks’ first round pick (Alexander Semin) to the Washington Capitals for Trevor Linden. A move that makes him the perfect man to run the Leafs, I can picture the 2015 Mclean's article now. Hockey’s Future sums up Burke's 2002 draft day performance best:

With one NHL appearance between the 11 former prospects, the Canucks take home the 2002 Futile Draft Award with an appalling average of just 0.09 games per prospect. And if you want to look at it closer, the only selection to appear in any NHL uniform was goaltender Rob McVicar whose NHL experienced totals less than three minutes from a brief appearance during the 2005-06 season against Edmonton. This equals approximately 15 seconds of NHL ice time per pick.

2003
The last draft for Burke in Vancouver, he grabbed Ryan Kesler at the 23rd spot with their first pick. Not a bad pick-up (Mike Richards went 24th and Corey Perry went 28th). The rest of the players Burke drafted have played a combined 23 NHL games.

As for his drafting history with the Ducks, it’s way too early to tell what sort of talent Burke has been able to compile. But his prize draft pick, Bobby Ryan (drafted one spot behind Sidney Crosby) has yet to make the NHL, most likely because Burke doesn’t have the cap space for him.

Which leads me to the other half of building a solid contender in a hard cap environment: salary cap management.

Salary Cap Management

As we’ve seen across the NHL, it’s not spending to the cap that matters - it’s the price to quality ratio that counts. As MC79 has pointed out, the NHL has really become an efficiency contest. Successful teams have a core of young developing players that can contribute to the team’s success without depleting the budget. UFA signings should only be utilized to fill-in the gaps or to put a team over the top. $4MM for 15 goal scorers never seems to be a good thing.

In Anaheim, Burke has stumbled with the cap, losing Dustin Penner, signing Todd Bertuzzi to a head-scratching 2 year deal at $4 Million per and then buying him out 10 month later, and signing Schneider to a whopping $5+M deal only to ship him off for spare parts when cap space ran out.

Desperate for cap space, he also waived Ilya Bryzgalov (think about this: Wade Belak was worth more) and dealt Andy McDonald (who provided much needed second line scoring, disciplined play and 14 points in 21 playoff games during the Ducks’ run to the Cup) to St. Louis for Doug Weight, who was a healthy scratch in the playoffs. MacDonald outscored Weight in the regular season 2:1.

Clearly, cap management has not been Burke’s strong suit to the point that the franchise's top prospect remains in the AHL awaiting Anaheim to clear the salary space so he can play with the big club.

Meaningless Stat That Doesn't Quite Fit into this Post but I'm Cramming it in Anyway

While Burke headed up the Canucks and some combination involving Pat Quinn ran the Leafs, the two clubs put up the following records:
Canucks 1999 to 2004:  .538%, 4 for 6 post-season appearances, won 1 playoff series
Leafs 1999 to 2004: .597%; 6 for 6 post-season appearances, won 7 playoff series

Options

This may seem like a curveball coming 1,500 words into a badly-in-need-of-an-edit piece but I’m not completely opposed to Burke.

Yes, he mangled the cap in Anaheim, soiled the linens on draft day, and won all of a single round of playoff hockey as GM of the Canucks; but, the man has won a cup, is passionate about the game and isn’t afraid to roll the dice, make a gutsy move or correct a mistake. I just think when you really examine Burke's record there are better options out there.

David Poile and Darcy Regier both have contracts that are expiring at the conclusion of this season. Poile's Predators have never found post-season success but he's managed to build and maintain a strongly competitive club using little more than old water bottles and sock tape. Regier is unparalleled in terms of drafting and developing talent and taking new approaches to scouting. It would be fascinating to see what these men could do with MLSE's resources.

Doug Wilson’s contract status seems to be a bit of a mystery but he told the Globe and Mail this past June that he can listen to offers from other clubs in the summer of 2009. His Sharks haven't been able to get over that final hump but he's pulled off the big deals, drafted well and managed the Sharks cap pretty nicely.

After looking at Burke’s long record and considering the importance that drafting and development will have if the Leafs are to ever field an elite squad that can challenge for the cup, I’d rather the Leafs wait six more months to see if they can land one of Poile, Regier or Wilson.

If the Leafs miss out Burke as a result, so be it. I’m sure there are plenty of GMs looking for work that have enough talent to yell at the local media types and chronically strike out at the draft table. 

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Comments

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2002
Burke traded the Canucks’ first round pick (Alexander Semin) to the Washington Capitals for Trevor Linden.

This is a terrible trade on the order of all of the Leafs’ screwups, or Luongo for Bertuzzi.

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by Chemmy on Nov 13, 2008 11:22 AM EST reply actions  

Linden’s second go in Vancouver

438GP 71G 93A 164PTS

Alexander Semin SO FAR:

207GP 87G 77A 164PTS

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by Chemmy on Nov 13, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh and Semin is leading the league in points this year…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I can’t imagine the amount of ink spilled, trees killed and airwaves filled if that deal was done by a Leafs GM.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I’d kill Burke and Semin myself.

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by Chemmy on Nov 13, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Oddly enough it is rarely, if ever, mentioned by media here.. Most fans have no idea. Until I tell them.

Even still, Linden is/was universally loved by the fans here. Slavishly so. I’m sure Burke had some inkling this would be a bad trade, but it would have been incredibly unpopular with the fans if Linden hadn’t been brought back to the fold.

Sort of along the lines if the Leafs could trade for Wendel in his current shape. The hoi-polloi would still go for it with a vengeance.

Not the greatest hockey move, but a very astute move for popularity.. And in Vancouver, half of hockey is a popularity contest (Viz: YAY COWAN! BRA-BARIAN! HURR HURR HURR)

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

So you’re saying it was an even trade.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Tough Question

I can almost play Talent Show with my extremely limited wannabe a campfire hero guitar skills, but Portland is on my current mp3 playlist…I actually had Talent Show in mind when I picked the title.

Enough waffling: I’ll go with Portland.

What’s your take (songs and/or Burke)?

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 11:39 AM EST reply actions  

what!?!

Here Come a Regular and Sadly Beautiful are my two faves…

I’m not down with burkie

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

It's all about the title

The post title is from the chorus of Talent Show, but it was also the chorus to a b-side called “Portland” – so the question was Talent Show v. Portland.

I suggested my fave for the title of DGB’s post.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

mmm...

love the Replacements…sorry, I just saw those two titles, and well, truth be told, I didn’t read the title of the blog…rookie mistake.

Talent Show is a fun song though, I think i’d take that over Portland, but not above the others…

Of course, Beer for Breakfast, Date to Church…on and on…now I gotta get home and restock my iPod with Westerberg/Grandapaboy and Replacements

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree with Bitter

Color Me Impressed is definitely up there. I like the Sadly Beautiful nod though. Not their greatest, but definitely an underrated tune.

by Kim Jorn on Nov 13, 2008 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Lef tof the Dial is good...

i’ve always had a thing for I’ll be You…it’s the line:

Lonely, I guess that’s where I’m from
If I was from Canada
then I’d best be called lonesome

love that…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Genius

I’ll Be You suffers from the same production flaws as Talent Show, but the briliance of the song still shines through. You caught the best line, but I’ve always liked:

And if it’s just a game
Then we’ll hold hands just the same
So what, we’re bleeding but we ain’t cut

I heard it playing on the radio in a Value Village in Saskatoon a few months ago. Very random.

by Kim Jorn on Nov 13, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

that would be surreal...

you never hear the ‘Mats anywhere, ever. When you do, it’s like some kind of cosmic co-incidence…

a buddy of mine compiled a bunch of live bootlegs onto a cd for me. those guys were out of control. production quality is about the same as Stink and Forgot to Take Out the Trash, so it’s like listening to an early album, except with later, well written songs.

his grandpaboy stuff is half decent. He’s got a good song on Mono called Silent Film Star that has some clever lines in it…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking as a geeky blogger, the live version of Color Me Impressed by Wilco (that segues into I Wanna be sedated) rocks.

There’s an interesting (albeit very old) discussion of the Replacements’ best 21 songs over at Glorious Noise that’s worth a look.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh and #*%&#

Alex Chilton and I Will Dare I probably like even more than the two I mentioned below…

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Bacon and cigarettes

This is one of my favourite Replacements/ Paul Westerberg stories. Scan down to the comment by Patrick Healy.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn, great story

I always thought it was “Bacon and cigarettes” too….

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Chilton

goes without saying…

their cover of “Another Girl” on “All for Nothing” is pretty good to…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Talent Show suffers from the glossy production, but I have a bootleg of the song (Amsterdam I believe) that seriously rocks. The melody and vocal delivery on Portland makes it one of Westerberg’s best meloncholy world-weary moments. If I had to pick, it would be Talent Show (but only because I’m a nerdy blogger and I take bootlegs into account….)

As for Burke…For the sake of Coxbloc it is a slam-dunk. A Burke/Wilson tag-team would keep us busy. And, as you mentioned, independence from ownership would go a long way to improving this team. On the other hand, I didn’t know about that Linden trade until you brought it up. I’m not sure Burke is the best fit for this team at this stage. Consider me unsatisfied.

by Kim Jorn on Nov 13, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Linden trade

but what’s the guarantee that Washington would take Semin with that pick? I have a hard time slagging people for trades when the pick could’ve just as easily been a bust as a superstar.

The Umberger one, however, I wasn’t impressed with. But wasn’t Umberger determined to not sign with Vancouver and demanding a trade anyways? Besides that was a crazy year, after Bertuzzi’s attack on Moore, and he left a huge hole in that lineup.

I don’t like his drafting record, but before the lockout there wasn’t as much emphasis on drafting. Also, even though you call Vancouver a small market, they’re right up there in team value and spend more money on the Canucks than you’d think. Ownership was a bit up in the air when Burke was still with the Canucks which could’ve affected his performance as well.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Every GM has made some bad trades. If we judged everyone by their worst deal, we never would have hired Cliff “Hull for Ramage” Fletcher in 1991.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

Besides, we all seem to have good faith in Cliff’s ability to draft now, despite his track record….

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Fletcher, albeit when he keeps his picks, has a pretty solid draft record: Vernon, McInnis, Niewendyk, Roberts, Suter, Hull, Loob, Matteau, Grimson, Jonsson, Modin, Berezin, Markov…

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed that a GM shouldn’t be judged by bad deals (although Hull was a fat kid who never scored, Ramage helped anchor the D that won the Flames the cup) but Burke has a history of trading away high picks, prospects [i]and[/i] drafting poorly. I don’t think that’s an optimal pedigree to bring to the Leafs.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

To an extent

Quinn drafted Stajan, Steen, White, etc.

But, more importantly, I don’t want Quinn back as GM either.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Well no

but pre-cap, Burke built the same way as Quinn did. I say we should give him the benefit of the doubt and a clean slate to work with (as Fletcher seems to be setting up for him).

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt

If the Ducks cap situation wasn’t pooched by none other than Mr. Burke (who also gave away Schneider, Bryzgalov and McDonald in the process).

Here’s the UFAs Anaheim has to deal with next year. It ain’t pretty.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

How much

of the cap problem is dealing with the inherent problems of keeping a championship team together in a cap situation? If the Leafs win a Cup under Burke, I won’t give a #$%# if the cap is pooched for a few years…

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Some, but Bertuzzi at $4M had nothing to do with keeping a champioinship team together. That was just bad management and it cost the club McDonald.

Not filing for arbitration with Penner was also a screw-up on Burke’s part…

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

I would be pretty happy if I was offered that compensation package in a trade for Dustin Penner, wouldn’t you?

Yeah, the Bertuzzi thing was brutal. Hopefully he learned from that.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

The primary idea is to protect your assets so that RFA sheets aren’t forthcoming. One way to do that is to file for arbitration.

That said, I too would take that package for Penner…

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Penner

If I had to not lock up one of this four: Perry, Getzlaf, Penner, Kunitz… I’d lose Penner every time.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

but that's a false choice...

Burke could have locked them all up.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Point taken

The point I was trying to make is “Burke lost Penner to Kevin Lowe being a moron” does not equal “Burke cannot retain young assets.”

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

but it sort of does

Had Burke simply filed for arbitration with Penner he would have protected his asset from the threat of an RFA offer sheet.

Burke didn’t file, the RFA sheet came in and the asset was turned into a slate of Oilers draft picks.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Sort of

Or does it imply ‘he squandered one young player’ like Quinn with Sullivan or Fletcher with (maybe) Wellwood? It’s not like he JFJed* them all for magic beans and Andrew Raycroft.

*Yes, JFJed is a verb now, eg “Till JFJed his driver’s test 4 times before he finally passed”

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I’d just like my GM to do the simple things to cover his assets.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

I am concerned, but overall, you get the guy, cause he’s the best guy available. Also, you know he is going to be motivated as all hell.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

And JFJ

was half good at covering his assets…

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Quinn

Quinn had the pieces to build around when he got to Toronto. The new Leafs GM will be starting almost from scratch.

by Kim Jorn on Nov 13, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

except...

the new GM has Hagman (our next captain!) I loves me some Hagman…maybe his wife will move over to TO, that would be a bonus…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

HAgman

Grabs, Kulemin, Schenn, Stralman, Pogge (?) Kubina and Kaberle for stability… there are pieces here.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

Exactly the same as Cujo and Mats Sundin entering the prime of their careers.

by Kim Jorn on Nov 13, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Not having two hall of famers entering their primes

= starting from scratch. Got it. Cashman is screwed next year, huh?

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

True, but in Vancouver and especially in Anaheim he had teams that he felt were on the verge of a Cup run. I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t understand that the Leafs are rebuilding and he’ll need a different approach.

That doesn’t mean he’ll be a great GM of a rebuilding team, just that you can’t assume he’ll make the same sort of moves that he made in the past.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

The man hasn’t operated under the cap in a rebuilding situation as of yet. He has built a perennial contender with one team and won a cup with another. Sure it’s not ideal to have someone who hasn’t built a winner under the current system, but those are very few and far between (Ken Holland is all that I can think of… since we’ve only had the cap for such a short time).

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

which team is the perrenial contender?

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The current system has only been in place for four years. Burke won a Cup one of those years. Yes he started with some pieces in place, but the list of GMs who’ve built a championship team from scratch under the current system has zero names on it.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I would argue it takes longer than four years to build a team from scratch. Being four years post-lockout it’s no surprise that there are zero names.

Penguins came awfully close though.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Very true

and thus I rest my point. There is noone who has proven a winner under the current system, so if someone has the smarts and resources, we should give them a chance. Burke learned from Lamorello and while he’s screwed up a few times (ie. Bertuzzi) I would like to see what he can do.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Just because no one has won under the current system doesn’t mean there aren’t better candidates out there.

I’d rather see Poile, Regier or Wilson have a shot in Toronto than Burke. All three are better at the draft, better with the cap and have pretty solid track records.

As for the Lamoreillo connection, JFJ was one of Lou’s protege’s so I’m not sure that’s the golden stamp I’m looking for.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is

just as DGB wrote in his post… there’s no guarantee they’ll become available.

Sure, I’d love Poile or Wilson, either may become available this summer, but I think Regier will be resigned. And what if neither becomes available? Who do you hire then? Noone else around has Burke’s resume, and those who have better resumes aren’t available.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Problem with that is

Will Burke wait till we go after him in the off-season, I mean if no one becomes available and we have to go with Burke, he may have signed with another team by then and we risk coming out of it with no one or the next JFJ?

Dicey game, and I’m fairly confident Burke isn’t going to wait especially being content with being the back up date because the one we really wanted to pick up rejected us.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

If we try to go that route, we can guarantee Burke won’t come. He’s positioned himself very well right now since there’s pretty much no other options on the market, and while Toronto is the only team that has an open position, there’s no reason to think other teams won’t make the change.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

no no no...

Joey is in the wings, and I’d be more than content with Fletch doing what he does for another season after this one, then handing the reigns over…

sometimes the best guy is the one you’ve already got

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't doubt Fletcher's ability

I doubt his age and health

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Keep in mind Blurr

I’m still on the fence about Burke

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

If that makes Fletch McCain

Is Nieuwy Sarah Palin?

“I said thanks but no thanks on that Blake to Nowhere!” /winks

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure

that even though the Leafs have removed the interim tag from his title, he’s not here past this summer, and they won’t give the position to Joe right away. They want someone with experience and pedigree, and a cup on their resume.

Which, I guess, rules out Regeir and Poile, doesn’t it?

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Cup on their resume

That’s a mistake though, wining a Cup so quickly after taking over a team speaks volumes from both good and bad… either they did a really good job or they may have just gotten a really good inheritance and I’m starting to think that latter what with the way the Ducks have been getting more messed up with each year after their Cup win.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

they’ve had a slow start this year. but they’ve got depth. Giggy is still a money goalie (despite what you think about his pad size) and Pronger on the D is prolly half the reason Edmonton got as far as they did…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

And

they are tied for the 3rd most points in the tough conference. I’ll take that ‘slow start’ most years…

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

I keep saying, stay up late and watch some Pacific Coast games, but no PPP is all “I have a job, I’ll be tired…” Wah

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

I still haven’t see any evidence to show the west coast isn’t a mythological location like Atlantis.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Regardless

Of a slow start, they have a solid roster on paper, and given their cap situation, they should be doing better then 3rd… plus that 3rd is a tie anyway with the Canucks and Flames.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

that's weak...

tying their hands like that was a stupid move. MLSE should know better than to tell the media anything about anything.

Fletcher is the perfect teacher for Joe, and Cliff’s already been told after his GM stint, he’ll be staying on in a senior advisor role, so it’s not like the training wheels come off right away.

We’re rebuilding, and we’re talking about 5-7 years, not 2. Let’s see if Joe’s the guy, after all we hired him to be GM one day, didn’t we?

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

But they've stated

that they will not let a rookie run this team. So that is not an option, but it’s also not a good situation because whoever is hired to be the new GM comes into a job with his successor already in place.

So basically, the Leafs haven’t done anything and they’ve already screwed us over for the next 5-7 years.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Joe's job as future Leaf's GM

Guaranteed though? I find that hard to believe.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a clue

I’m just working with blurr’s assumption.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

why bring him in as an assistant

if you didn’t at least plan on him being GM capable at one point.

Mgmt 101 – always know who your successor is

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

If Burke comes here, he’ll bring his buddy Nonis with him no doubt.

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't like Nonis

His claim to fame is dumping Bertuzzi for Loungo but that’s it, there’s no team in front of Loungo

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s still a pretty good claim to fame!

He got screwed by the change in ownership too, they fire him for Mike Gillis? Bizarre. Ah well, I don’t really care about the Canucks. It’s better when they’re doing poorly because I get less guff from my coworkers about the Leafs..

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

screwed us over...

that’s not a shock.

I just say screw it all. There’s no magic formula for building a winning team. Who’s to say Burke has the answers any more than Joe?

Personally, the idea of building from within should be a top down idea, much like Detroit. Their management team has been trained from within, and I think it makes more sense to have that environment established from the get go.

If Burke’s the best guy for us, then great. But saying he meets the criteria established by MLSE management, whom we don’t want anywhere near the team is kind of counter-intuitive to me. Make sense…?

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

But they're hiring him

so what does it matter? The reality is that the management team hires the GM, and they’ve come out with criteria for the position and we should expect that it will be filled as such.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Burke's hiring isn't set in stone

Until its set in stone

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

it is what it is

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Nov 13, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I am teetering on the side of

Not wanting Burke in T.O.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

stone-ish?

cement-like?

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying it is

but what I am saying is that it’s unreasonable to expect Cliff to stay on until they feel Joe is ready for the position.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

On a re read

that does seem to be what I said.

Oops. Must think more before posting.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

That's alright

We still love you Karina

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

how do you know he is ready?

word on the street was his(joe’s) hiring was one of their best mgmt moves. he’s smart, wants to succeed, and most importantly, wants to be with MLSE. He knows players, he knows what makes a good team (he has won a few cups as well…)

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I am not comfortable

With placing that much faith in Joe, I heart him and all but with no management background or track record to gauge him on…

Of course I’ll be happy if he proves me wrong

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the question...

MSLE thought JFJ was ready.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think so

Far as I was concerned, MLSE wanted to try something “new” like “think outside the box” and hire an “unproven GM” in the hopes that they strike gold by pure fluke.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Well that's just

unresponsible. They wasted 4 years of my life for nothing!

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

they were looking for catching lightning, and the intial read on JFJ was that he a GM in waiting, without really having learned the position.

Your aprehension on Joe is understandable, but I think it’s more a byproduct of the JFJ years than anything else.

MLSE wants Burke to prove the front office is stable, as they tagged Fletch as interim, and even if they took the label off, he’s still seen as such, and hence the front office appears to be in flux…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You are spot on

About my apprehension on Joe stemming from the train-wreck that was JFJ.

And I hope you were being sarcastic Karina on your “unresponsible” label of MLSE management.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course I was

I mean, we all know that MSLE always thinks of our best interests when making decisions…

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry

I’m slow
Its one of those days

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Duhastchek says the Bruins, Rangers, Black Hawks and Leafs are all bidding for Burke’s services.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

If other people want him we must get him regardless of cost!@#

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

"Kids Don't Follow"

or “Color Me Impressed”

I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere – part of Burke’s success in Anaheim was ditching some awful contracts (Fedorov, Prospal). That’s another data point in his favour.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

Can't Hardly Wait -the Tim Version...

He got lucky with Beauchemin in the Federov deal, but he still had to take on Marchant, who’s not exactly getting paid on the cheap. Agree on the Prospal deal, although that I believe was amicable. Prospal isn’t bad, it’s just that he’s got to be used in a very specific way. He’s support al the way, but he was brought in to carry the offense when he signed on with the ducks…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Point is, they

were bad contracts and he got value. Saying that he got lucky with Beauchemin is uncharitable unless you want to say he was just unlucky with Doug Weight…

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

his Weight deal

was a cap move. He dumped MacDonald for someone on their last year who was UFA, giving him space for the Perry and Getzlaf signings as i recall.

I still think he got the shaft mainly due to Selanne and Niedermeyer’s waffling, at least in regards to cap managment. You can say he should have planned better for them to return, but I really thought Selanne was done after the cup, and Scotty didn’t look to sure about coming back again either.

However, no one thought he was getting a top 4 d0man in Beauchemin, not even him I would guess…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I would guess that Blake would be the first Burke shoots out the airlock on the orbiting Leaf HQ..

And there was much rejoicing.

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Suddenly I want Burke for GM

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

you could notch that as a popularity move...

a la LFinV stated the Linden move was…

except, we’d come out on the winning end no matter what!

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, it’s win-win-win (Michael Scott)

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

OT, but

Check out the Omen today:

. Look at the way in which folks have responded to a Leaf team this season that has scored a surprising amount of goals. It’s as if offence for its own sake is as good as winning. I guess folks would prefer attacking, creative hockey to defensive hockey if the result, in the end, is going to be the same. So you can blame this succession of coaches, but maybe they’re just delivering that which this particular market seems to value more than ultimate success.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:39 PM EST reply actions  

more and more

ever day, i hate the man

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

So lemme get this straight

He’s criticizing the Leafs playing more offensive and blasting the fans for liking to see more goals?

I can’t wait until he condemns us for pro-creating.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

if we didn't

how would he have another generation of morons and followers to hate…? He does need the readers…although, it would be funny to see if he did say that

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions  

But wait! There;s more!

Right now, Grabovski is playing and producing and seems happy. Maybe tomorrow he’ll be a Belarusian version of Jason Blake. We’ll see.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder

If Cox was ever on his high school debate team

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

COx in High school debate

“No, YOU’RE a towel!”

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Nov 13, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

"Right now, the sun makes all human life possible."

“Maybe tomorrow, it will explode, killing us all. We’ll see.”

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

“No, YOUR mom sucks”

“Damien we’re discussing lowering the speed limit on highways”

“So?”

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Nov 13, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Clearly

The speed limit on highways should be RAISED, I suggest 90 mph because that is the speed at which your nose eject mucus when you sneeze.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

that still doesn't change

that your mom sucks

j/k

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Nov 13, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That

Was kinda random

But it works!

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I was continuing what I said earlier about Cox’s debate techniques

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Nov 13, 2008 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

That's why I said it works

Because of the randomness

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

and nonseneicalness?

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Nov 13, 2008 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactliness

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

My mind is officially boggled. Is he a journalist or a devil’s advocate?

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

hey now...

he can diss me all day long, but comparing Grabs to Blake. That’s over the line buster!

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Blurr

Would your head explode if Cox compared Hagman to Blake?

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

no

but my killing spree would be epic.

they’d probably write a folk song about…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

That's

All I wanted to know

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...

…he co-hosted the FAN morning show yesterday and was guffawing over how excited everyone was getting over Grabbo’s start. Let’s not award him the Calder just yet…

Yes – I think Leaf fans to a person are calling the Calder race right now for Mikhail Grabovski.

HATE!

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve decided that Cox is nothing more than an internet troll, however one with newspaper distribution. Ignore him accordingly.

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Umm, yeah

Kinda wouldn’t work out for Kim and I…

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I know, I know.. like a bus crash or a nun falling down a flight of stairs, you just can’t look away!

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

and there’s the whole blog named after him thing…

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure, Gretzky is scoring 200 points a year now but what about if he decides to give up and retires suddenly ? What will the Oilers have to show for him then?
Seriously, does anyone read that shit back to Damien?!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

it’s so bad, even he won’t read it back to himself i imagine…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

He's just chuckling at foibles...

It’s his mission statement on his little columnist bio:

“Damien Cox, Toronto Star hockey columnist, loves to stir up trouble while chuckling at the foibles of the sporting world.”

We can’t fault him for any of this. He’s just doing his job, chuckling at the foibles."

Foibles, people.

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

One thing to remember...

As great as a job Poile or Regier or anyone else you may think is a better choice than Burke, one question arises: Have any of their teams won it all while they were the GM? Maybe these guys can only take a team as far as they have. Like for instance, Regier; no matter which star players the Slugs lose, they still ice a competitive team – mind you I said competitive not a championship team… as for Poile, he as done a similar job as others have but the one thing they haven’t been able to do yet is win it all and maybe that’s the extend of their talent. I’m not saying that they may never but how much longer would it be before they do? And why do we think that they could do it here of all places if they haven’t been able to do it else where?

Why do you think that having someone else, like these two, would really improve the chance of winning it all more so than Burke? I don’t understand the reasoning in this thinking. They could be like many other high profile people (players) that came to Toronto and just fail all the same. My feeling is, if Burke comes to Toronto, he will have as good as a chance to win it here than anyone else and maybe more so because he wants to win and win it here plus he knows what it takes to win it all.

...

by puckbuddy on Nov 13, 2008 1:58 PM EST reply actions  

Mats Sundin never won it all

was he a bad guy to build the franchise around?

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that depends… are you happy with a team that wins plays hard but at the end, never become champs or are you more in the we want a championship team camp?

...

by puckbuddy on Nov 13, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

looking at his 3.5-4 years

with Anaheim and nothing else, sure he looks good. looking at the work he did in Vancouver (although it was comendable, taking that team from near bankruptcy to competetive) nad the rest is where his real record shows.

Don’t forget, he tweaked an already incredibly strong team. As someone else posted. he didn’t do the work to get Scotty, Pronger or Selanne. They were all handed to him on a silver platter.

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Both

Poile and Regeir have been limited because their teams have no $$. The idea is that with the resources of MSLE behind them, they could win.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Again, dangerous assumption

These GMs have proven that they are good building decent teams with little money because of tight purse strings but if they came to Toronto were cash flow is abundant, that introduces a new variable into the equation as in that they have no experience managing a team with a huge budget… all of a sudden they HAVE to worry about a cap when they didn’t before because they can’t spend that much money… so how will they handle/deal with that?

Lots and lots of factors, assumptions are difficult to make.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

see Sather, Glen

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Very true

Sometimes constraints make you far more creative than having an empty sheet.

Thanks, Architecture school!

But that’s the theory.

Which is why… whoever’s hired as the new GM, there’ll be questions, just a different set than we have of Burke.

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe but..

There’s just no real hard proof of that. I am not saying that maybe they can’t, they obviously have an eye for talent but they both showed that in this cap restricting league, they have yet to ice a winner. On one hand we have a GM (as much as many say he walked into it) won a cup and on the other we have a bunch of hopefuls that have yet to accomplish this feat. Again it doesn’t mean they wont ever but it also doesn’t mean that because you can find these treasures that you have what it takes to win it all either.

...

by puckbuddy on Nov 13, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

On one hand we have a GM (as much as many say he walked into it) won a cup and on the other we have a bunch of hopefuls that have yet to accomplish this feat. Again it doesn’t mean they wont ever but it also doesn’t mean that because you can find these treasures that you have what it takes to win it all either.

It works both ways, just because Burke won it once, it doesn’t mean he can capture lightning in a bottle a second time. See Neil Smith, Jay Feaster, Glen Sather, Jim Rutherford, Serge Savard…

If it weren’t for injuries, Regier’s Sabres would have been in the Stanley Cup in 2006. They were so banged up on the backend that Jerry Korab was getting ready to be the 6th D.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I only put forward those GMs...

…because if I didn’t, I knew there would be 16 posts saying, “Ok smarty pants, name another GM that you’d rather have.”

As for GMs winning it all, I think that’s far too narrow a requirement or metric. No GM in the history of the NHL has ever won the cup with 2 teams.

Why do you think that having someone else, like these two, would really improve the chance of winning it all more so than Burke?

Because the current CBA makes drafting and cap management the two most imporant aspects for any GM. Burke’s draft record is horrid, both in Vancouver and to date in Anaheim, and he’s mismanaged the cap during his time in Anaheim, costing the team numerous assets in the process.

My feeling is, if Burke comes to Toronto, he will have as good as a chance to win it here than anyone else and maybe more so because he wants to win and win it here plus he knows what it takes to win it all.

I’m may be misinterpreting this, but since Burke doesn’t draft well and has a poor record with the cap, he doesn’t have as good a chance as GMs that have a proven track record draft, developing and cost-managing talent. As for you latter point, do you think other GMs don’t want to win?

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

So..

Does the fact that the dissenting view has a lot more comments mean that we’re more pro or con on Burke? Or is it just because it was the later one posted..

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:01 PM EST reply actions  

I think it’s the latter. Both got good discussion going but the Affirmative hit music hard and now I am lost!

I wish I could have done it in two columns at the same time instead of at the same time with one on top of the other.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

here's what you do...

go out and buy yourself some Replacements CD’s, or maybe just their Double CD best of (All for Nothing). Pick up a copy of Guns n’ Roses Appetite for Destruction. Get yourself a Husker Du CD (i’ve always liked Zen Arcade…) and then go to the 99¢ bin and grab either Tone Loc or Young MC.

you’re all set!

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Everyone should just e-mail me music to listen too. Just titles and artists and I’ll start my education.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

careful what you wish for...

i’ve got a hair under 5000 CD’s, and a hard drive with close to 15000 mp3’s.

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

WOW

And I thought my dad had a lot of music…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

i worked in a record store for 5 years

before i got married.

lot’s of promos. Still, I probably spent more than I paid while I was there.

i’m like Cusak in High Fidelity. If my daughter was a boy, we were going to name him Costello (after Elvis Costello)

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve always liked the name Declan. Or MacManus. Either one works ;)

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Naming a kid anything with “anus” in it would provide for a potentially painful elementary school time..

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Ack...

…good call. You’ve saved an unborn child from a miserable series of beatings.

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Used to have a friend

Dood’s Russian, last name is Mintz, he said if he ever had a son, he’ll name him Junior so that his full name would be Junior Mintz…

Let me know if you don’t get the joke

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Mmmmm

junior mints…..

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh I get it Winkle…I take it Junior Mintz was never born?

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Not that I am aware of

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

me too!

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Cool!

Now I have homework.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitchfork media's list of top 500 songs, EVAR

The list has some interesting tracks on it too. Pitchfork is a site of total hipster music snobs, but I find it useful for tracking down stuff that I wouldn’tve heard of in my “square” lifestyle otherwise..

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

i emailed you a list

of like 40 or so albums to start with…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Chinese Democract starts now…

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Not pictured: biker shorts (thank god)

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Bah..

Almost did it again… That pic was a couple years old. In the hollywood forever cemetery where Korn was having a halloween party. Wow that was a while back… You should find the other picture where you see more of the Leafs jersey…

...

by puckbuddy on Nov 13, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure what you mean. I just did a Google search for “most awesome picture in the world” and it was the first one that came up.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

For real?

Naw I don’t mind but I’m sure my ex-employers hate seeing that. I find it funny that I see my work floating around. I’m glad to produce stuff that people want/like…
Just to give some background on the photo… as when/why it was taken as well as his gf at the time was from TO. He loves hockey jerseys and the Leafs one is one of if not his favorite. Still funny though!

...

by puckbuddy on Nov 13, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

also...

Crips affiliated rappers like it cuz the leaf looks like a marijuanna cigarette, and they’re blue…

the more you know…

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Hell. I say the more the better! Share and share alike! I don’t mind seeing my stuff everywhere :D

...

by puckbuddy on Nov 13, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually I just remember seeing it in the past. I searched “axl leafs” and it popped up everywhere. I think the one I grabbed was from some Polish site.

Cool to find out you took it.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That

Is my TMLfans avatar. I should get it for here.

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Or an homage to Todd Gill.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

How could anyone not have a copy of Appetite? is that even possible?

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

no, no it's not...

it’s so sad, it’s worse than emo

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Bust a move is pretty awesome you have to admit

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Close.

Black Sheep for the win.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Your best friend Harry has a brother Larry
In five days from now he’s going to marry
He’s hoping you can make it there if you can
Cause in the ceremony, you’ll be the best man.

Wait, what? Larry wants you to be the best man? He’s not your best friend, Harry is. In fact it sounds like you barely know the guy. And why isn’t he having his brother be best man? What kind of messed up family dynamics are going on here? He snubs his own brother, and chooses his brother’s best friend? Talk about passive-aggressive. And what’s with only giving you five day’s notice? What kind of half-assed wedding is this?

This has bothered me for 17 years.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I took it that Harry was in fact getting married, the fact that he has a brother Larry is incidental in order to get the cadence right.

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

This has never occurred to me.

I have to go sit in a dark room and think about this.

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome.

Not even gold. We’re talking pure platinum, DGB.

I’m gonna have to let that one sink in with me for a while.

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Thin Lizzy

That reminds me of something I read recently in Chuck Thompson’s excellent book “Smile When You’re Lying”.

He had a problem with the lyrics to Jailbreak by Thin Lizzy.

Tonight there’s going to be a jailbreak
Somewhere in this town.

Ummmm…maybe at the fucking jail?

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure

but overall it’s nowhere near close.

“This is the 80s and I’m down with the ladies” GOLD!

by Godd Till on Nov 13, 2008 2:33 PM EST reply actions  

here's an oldie...

anyone remember Oran “Juice” Jones and his “hit” – “walking in the rain”

awesome.

also, RUN DMC. ’nuff said

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, stuff played at weddings and jr high dances

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

People

play rap at weddings?

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

pop rap, sure.. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a wedding reception (with DJ) where they didn’t play bust a move. It’s required by law or something.

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Ewww

If rap was played at the wedding I’ll go straight to the lawyer’s office and file for an immediate divorce.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

No rap here...

although that was a close call with the hubby…

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea I just remembered

My GF doesn’t mind hip-hop

I may have to re-examine our relationship there…

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not hard

just threaten to play Cotton Eyed Joe if they want rap…

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know

what that is

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

WHAT?!?

They play it at a lot of hockey games….

by Karina on Nov 13, 2008 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I will probably know the song

If I heard it, just don’t know the name

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

it’s pop-rap! it’s not like it’s the wu-tang clan or something.. which would also be awesome.

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I would want music

Rap and any form of it is not music

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

How very white of you!

by LeafFanInVan on Nov 13, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Close

But I’m not white

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Nov 13, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

me neither...

i’m more pale…translucent even… :P

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Don’t go to Chemmy’s wedding then. It’ll be polkas and Wu-Tang.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

ploka and wu tang mashups?

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Nov 13, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Holiday rap was the tune/line-dance of choice for most bar mitzvahs in the late 80s early 90s.

It redefined funky.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

all time worst rap rhyming couplet

Here’s my entry:

I kicks the flava like Stephen King writes horror
If I was a jew I’d light a menorah.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

topper

Jump up in my Lamborghini Gallardo
Go to my place and just kick it like taebo

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Nov 13, 2008 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

My dick: size of a pumpkin.
Your dick look like Macaulay Culkin.

by clark4calder on Nov 13, 2008 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Good post mf

The problem lies in the fact that we don’t have a whole lot of record of what Burke does in a situation like ours. His drafting hasn’t been stellar, but I don’t think it’s fair to talk about what he’s given up in order to try and contend.

Poile, a season after the salary cap was imposed, gave up Ryan Parent, Scotty Upshall, a 1st and a 3rd for how many games of Peter Forsberg? How many playoff points did the guy get in their first round exit? Simply put, first rounders and prospects didn’t hold the same sort of weight when teams were still learning to negotiate under the cap, and if we’re holding Burke accountable for prospects sacrificed for a championship then, well, most GMs have pretty bad skeletons.

He’s actually drafted some really good players with the picks that he’s had, at least betetr than the Leafs have compiled in the same string. We “cleaned up” in 2002, adding perennial 40 point 16-18 goal achievers Stajan and Steen, as well as the oft-scratched White and minor-leaguer Kronwall. It’s not exactly an honour roll, and the players nabbed in subsequent drafts have been the equal or better of what the Leafs have accomplished (so far). Bobby Ryan is also an excellent player, stuck in Burke’s mess.

Which stems as much from Teemu Selanne and Scott Niedermayer as it does Burke. Simply put, I admire that Burke kept his word and welcomed them both back into the fold, but their waffling retirement completely fucked the guy over. Signing Todd Bertuzzi was a boneheaded signing it’s true, but signing Schneider at the time seemed like a pretty sweet move.

I just don’t think that those negatives you’ve listed really exist in the context of our franchise and what the salary cap has done to the league so far. Burke hasn’t been stellar in his handling of the Ducks situation, but keeping a contender together is probably even harder in the cap world than building one up.

by koopa kid on Nov 13, 2008 2:55 PM EST reply actions  

X2

I agree with you here as you make some valid points regarding our current situation and the Ducks. Also one has to keep in mind that if he does come here, he will be in complete sync with the coaching staff… Imagine that a GM and coach, both hard-nosed and on the same page with just about everything… See a pattern forming here? It will start at the top and move it was down.

Burke might not be the best but who is to say, without doubt, he will not do a great job for us?

...

by puckbuddy on Nov 13, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

He very well may

but I’m not trying to argue that because I don’t believe Burke has been as awful as certain evidence may suggest that he is all of a sudden the best GM evar. I just think that most of those negatives don’t really fully apply in context to what we’re doing, or that there are any GMs that have had tenure in the NHL as long that don’t carry similar experiences.

Not only that, but both Nashville and Buffalo tend to operate fairly cheaply, both for varying ownership/market reasons. While it’s true that their contracts are due past this season, what incentives will their owners have to let them walk free? Both have produced playoff teams for almost nothing, generating more revenue for the dollar than most would think possible. Nabbing another GM is just as much a pipe dream as Nash and Kovy ’10.

by koopa kid on Nov 13, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Also one has to keep in mind that if he does come here, he will be in complete sync with the coaching staff

JFJ and Maurice were on the same page, how’d that work out?

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem lies in the fact that we don’t have a whole lot of record of what Burke does in a situation like ours. His drafting hasn’t been stellar, but I don’t think it’s fair to talk about what he’s given up in order to try and contend.

I think we need to separate trades from drafting.

Burke has a terrible, terrible draft record and drafting has to be the cornerstone of the Leafs future. I think that’s a huge black mark against him.

On the trade front, I think Burke is pretty solid.

Poile, a season after the salary cap was imposed, gave up Ryan Parent, Scotty Upshall, a 1st and a 3rd for how many games of Peter Forsberg? How many playoff points did the guy get in their first round exit?

Not to defend Poile (that’s a horrible trade, just awful) but I do wonder how much of that was a business decision to try to get that franchise deeper into the playoffs and strengthen the fan base.

Simply put, first rounders and prospects didn’t hold the same sort of weight when teams were still learning to negotiate under the cap, and if we’re holding Burke accountable for prospects sacrificed for a championship then, well, most GMs have pretty bad skeletons.

I didn’t mention a single prospect sacrificed for Anaheim’s cup.

What I tried to draw attention to was Burke’s two-fold failure at drafting and trading whilst GM of the Canucks. He dealt away prospects and got nothing in return and he stunk out the joint at the draft table. In the end, his teams won one single playoff round during his six year tenure.

He’s actually drafted some really good players with the picks that he’s had, at least betetr than the Leafs have compiled in the same string. We "cleaned up" in 2002, adding perennial 40 point 16-18 goal achievers Stajan and Steen, as well as the oft-scratched White and minor-leaguer Kronwall. It’s not exactly an honour roll, and the players nabbed in subsequent drafts have been the equal or better of what the Leafs have accomplished (so far). Bobby Ryan is also an excellent player, stuck in Burke’s mess.

Name one of Burke’s picks since 2000 that’s cracked the 50 point plateau. There isn’t one.

He’s helmed five drafts in Anaheim and here’s the line total for all of his drafted players combined (even those playing elsewhere): 26 GP, 6G, 5A.

I just don’t think that those negatives you’ve listed really exist in the context of our franchise and what the salary cap has done to the league so far.

Not to be a broken record, and perhaps we’ll just have to agree to disagree here, but from where I sit the future of the Leafs is all about drafting and cap management. Looking at Burke’s track record over the last 10 years he’s been sub-par in both categories. I would submit that these negatives have everything to with the current context of the Leafs’ organization.

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

So

who won? DGB or Bitter Leaf?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Nov 13, 2008 3:23 PM EST reply actions  

We All Won

Two very good posts and a good debate.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

that soundsl like a tie...

we don’t have those anymore.

We’re going to a shootout!

Anybody throws me against the boards I'm gonna piss all over myself.
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Nov 13, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Three Fanshots each!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Nov 13, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Am I going to get Toskala’d? Is PPP going to get General Borschevsky to write fanposts for me instead?

Down Goes Brown - Because it's technically possible that things may get better before we all die.

by Down Goes Brown on Nov 13, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m a little rusty but I’ll start getting warmed up in the hall.

Hey – it’s entertainment right? I’ve got to like being in that position, at least you can come in and you’ve got a chance.

by general borschevsky on Nov 13, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd like DGB's odds in a shootout

He’s quick, while I’m more like Jason Allison (I can grow a mean neckbeard too).

A life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com

by mf37 on Nov 13, 2008 9:02 PM EST reply actions  

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