Point/Counterpoint: Vesa Toskala
The Leafs are increasingly seeing some promising efforts derailed by Vesa Toskala. As much as he says that he's been feeling fine it's clear that something is wrong with the little goalie that Leaf fans had hoped might be one of a handful of attractive assets that could be moved at the trade deadline. At this rate, we might have to see if CSKA Moscow might be interested. So what should the Leafs do? Should they listen to Chemmy and irrationally blow up any potential to move Toskala? Or should they take a calm and measured approach? When is it time to turn the team over to Justin Pogge? Or do we hand the reins back to CuJo and try to recapture the magic of the Quinn years?
Well, having those questions answered is why they invented Even Stephven which we will now rip-off.

The Mensa chapter president PPP tries his best to convince the Forrest Gump-like Chemmy that he shouldn't panic...or eat worms.
(p.s. Chemmy tried to change the above caption to make me the dumb one but then let me finish editing the post again. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that one)

Chemmy
Here's Vesa Toskala's stat line so far this season:
Here's Andrew Raycroft's stat line from 06-07 when we all agreed he needed to be fired into the sun:
We literally wanted someone to set Andrew Raycroft on fire and run him out of town. We wanted to see Raycroft tarred and feathered for his poor play, and Vesa Toskala is substantially worse this year. This isn't a short slump, Toskala has been awful for 18 games. He ranks 39th in the NHL in GAA, and 42nd in SV%.
Granted, some of it is the fault of the defense. We've seen a neverending streak of goals go in off of our defensemen's legs and sticks. That said, an 0.876SV% isn't pretty no matter how it happens, and 41 other goals in the NHL can manage better.
There's one small difference in those two stat lines. Maybe someone that can count past the number of fingers and toes that they possess (ask Chemmy about Chinese Finger Traps) would have noticed that Raycroft picked up those numbers over the course of 72 games rather than just a scant 18 starts.
Actually, that's a little disingenuous of me. Chemmy's not asking us to believe that Toskala will actually be that bad over the course of the season. What he is asking us to do is the equivalent of taking cash out of our pockets and burning it while simultaneously giving our broker the rest of our savings to invest. Let me clarify that analogy.
Toskala, our goaltending assets or "cash", has suffered a rough first quarter of the season. A closer look at VeTo's stat line shows 411 saves on 469 shots for a horrible .876 Sv%. What would it take to get Toskala back up to last year's .904 which, while not great, was enough to convince us that he could be flipped at the deadline for worthwhile assets? 13 extra saves. That's .722 more saves per game. Thanks to Ron Wilson's defensive focus on blocking shots every goal makes a much bigger impact on save percentage. You could probably find at least one goal a game that was in no way Toskala's fault.
Pogge's poor play in the AHL is probably directly attributable to his being on a crappy Marlies team with no good players (Mark Bell? Egads.) Pogge looked good in the preseason for the Leafs, and he looked good in the playoffs in the AHL last year. Pogge has sat behind Clemmensen for no reason and now he's sitting behind Toskala for no reason.
We don't need to throw Pogge to the wolves but giving him three or four starts sprinkled through the season with Cujo as his backup lets Hirsch work with Toskala for extended periods. Giving Pogge a start tells him that the organization is serious about its goaltending prospect, but that he needs to shine.
Hopefully a good Pogge start also lights a fire under Toskala's "rear end". Toskala played well platooning with Nabokov in San Jose, and he played well with the threat of Raycroft constantly snoozing on the bench. Toskala has played abyssmally as the undisputed number 1.
Give Pogge five games this season, what's the harm?
Let's go back to the second part of my previous analogy that I left dangling in the wind in the hopes that Chemmy would blindly stumble into my trap. That would be putting Pogge, the rest of our goaltending assets (dear Brian, draft a goalie) or "cash", into the frying pan during a rebuilding year. It's essentially a no-win situation. Not only is there the risk of destroying Toskala as an asset (moreso than his poor play) or that Pogge will get shelled and lose confidence (though it hasn't killed Schenn yet) but it goes against what Ron Wilson is instilling in his team: accountability.
Justin Pogge is well aware of the opportunity that awaits him. He showed that he was close to ready in the preseason but what has he done in the AHL? 2.71 GAA and .901 Sv%. Sounds good right? Well, it ranks him 19th on the top goalies list. Maybe those numbers are depressed because the Marlies are in the NHL but the top goalies in the league have significantly better stats. He's also only played 41 and 48 games in his previous two seasons. Are the Marlies that bad anyway? Last year they made it to the Conference Final (ie were brutal in mediaspeak) and while there have been changes the core of the team is still intact and has been bolstered by Bell and Devereaux.
Let Pogge play a full professional season as a starter and show he's earned it before throwing him into the middle of a rebuild.
Have you even looked at Toskala's weak spots?
Actually, JavaGeek at Hockey Numbers was kind enough to give me a breakdown of VeTo's save percentages per area through 18 games.


Chemmy
Welp!

PPP
I know. It's almost like CuJo needs to play while VeTo gets some time to practice on his Raycroft-like glove hand.

Chemmy
POGGE!
JOSEPH!

Chemmy
POGGE!!
JOSEPH!!
JOSEPH!!!/POGGE!!!!
And that's been another installment of Even PPP/Chemmy.
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TOSKALA!
Disagreeing is fun!
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 27, 2008 1:34 PM EST reply actions
I don't agree with that.
;)
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
then we’ll have to disagree to agree to disagree
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 27, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely not.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
no, X or nothing
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 27, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Toskala
Keep Pogge down unless Vesa gets hurt.
If they DO bring Pogge up they better keep him up as starter, otherwise if he rots on the bench then no one wins.
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
He keeps playing like this, It might be Wilson that hurts him.
by JohnnyG on Nov 27, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Tampa Bay Buccaneers’ first head coach, Jon McKay was once asked by a reporter what he felt about his team’s execution.
He answered, “I’m in favor of it.”
*"favor" spelled without the “u” in honour of our American cousins’ Thanksgiving…
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Ranger goalie Gump Worsley was once asked what team gave him the most trouble. His answer?
“The Rangers.”
That’s likely Vesa’s answer, too. (No, not “the Rangers.” “The LEAFS!” Work with me here, people!)
Give Pogge his 10 starts already.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Those two are two of my favorite (it’s your day America!) sports quips.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
The other one I like is Harry Neale’s old line that his Canucks “just needed to find another place to play” – because they couldn’t win on the road, and they couldn’t win at home.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
#@#$&^$#*@#$
By a minute!
Last time I ever verify anything before posting….
Leaf, the universe and everything.
The version you quote is more complete, 1967ers, and does the original more justice.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Speaking of bad football teams
I always found this quip to be hilarious:
“Wells Fargo (owner) will contribute $5,000 to the 49ers Foundation to help under-served youth in the Bay Area for every 49ers touchdown scored this season. [Pause] There’s going to be a lot of sad kids.”
— Joe Starkey, San Francisco 49ers radio broadcaster
FUHR!
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 27, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
If only blogs had existed in the eras of Ing and Bester. The grammatical fun one could have with -Ing. And Bester, I remember his stickerbook picture from ’87-ish was priceless. He had the distinct facial expression of someone being, uh, “serviced.”
Lighthouse Hockey: a New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
And ESPN tracked him down for us!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=lebrun_pierre&id=3725538&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab7pos1
Magog
not that far from where I am right now, actually
Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing
you
should totally go hand out with the Cat
Big Smoke Sports - We Burn The Buds, Roll The Raps, and Smoke The Jays
i don' think he'd like me
plus he seems a bit creepy, maybe it’ s the goatee?
Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing
That makes people evil not creepy…
I mean I have a goatee and Im not creepy…
Really Im not..
STOP STARING AT ME!
he is not
THAT fat, like he’s not gonna starve of anything, he’s not a stick but he’s not a blimp
Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing
Speaking of Potvin
There was a random article done by Lebrun on ESPN on what Felix the Cat is up to these days. Let’s just say he’s skating with little boys.
Check the fanshots
Someone posted it if you’re looking for it.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
On the topic
I typed it before, and I’ll type it again:
Putting a young guy like Pogge or Carey Price in goal in the NHL is a dangerous move; goaltending is a position that, more than any other, relies on self-confidence. There are lots of people who will tell you that Price struggled quite a bit during last year’s playoffs. Price appears to have survived it, but that guy is robot cool, man – his hair could be on fire and he wouldn’t even run across the room to get a glass of water to put it out. That’s not the personality of every ‘tender, and I would hazard a guess – based on the apparent struggles of Pogge in the "A" that it’s not him.
So forget about Pogge this year. He doesn’t exist as far as the Leafs are concerned, at all. The only way Pogge should see NHL action this year- at all – is as a reward, at the end of the year, for working hard and getting his shit together – once the parent club is definitively out of the playoff picture, and the pressure (to the greatest extent possible in this town) is off.
If people are worried about somebody pushing VeTo a little bit, convince CuJo to retire and pick up somebody like Wade Dubliewicz fer Chrissake. The wins and losses don’t matter this year, people. So with all due respect, Chemmy, getcher stinkin’ hands off my goalie of the future; part of building a winner in the future is not fucking up the pieces we already have.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Waivers
Just snatch the next goalie that goes on waivers and see how it works out.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Agreed
There’s no need to go out of your way to acquire goaltending IMO… There’s always a team with too many goalies (look at how Phoenix stole Bryzgalov) looking to dump one on the cheap.
Big Smoke Sports - We Burn The Buds, Roll The Raps, and Smoke The Jays
That was my point re: Dubliewicz: he’s sitting at home, not playing for anyone right now.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Unfortunately, Dubie is in Russia. (“Danny, Danny, this isn’t Russia, is this Russia?”). But since the NHL and KHL aren’t big on the whole “contract” thing, maybe…
Dubie would be awesome for a rebuilding year. His style immediately makes him a fan favorite. He goes all out and has to do some interesting things to compensate for his size. I think if he played regularly some of his size-compensation tactics would be exposed, but he’d be great to be in the mix and push someone like Toskala.
Lighthouse Hockey: a New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
Wow, the more you know...
I have to admit Dubie’s .887 save percentage – in the KHL – makes me rethink that whole scenario. What’s Johnny Bower doing these days?
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
That save percentage did give me pause — although it’s higher than Toskala’s [winces]… Maybe the KHL makes non-natives play with a patch over one eye?
Lighthouse Hockey: a New York Islanders blog with hip issues.
And Price isn't even normal
As in the way he was brought up was so analogous to how young goalies developed. There aren’t many who won WJC gold, AHL championship (only playing the playoffs to boot), and the NHL in same calendar year. That’s unprecedented and quite frankly, it’s why Price can’t be used for any comparison for how young goalies have to be brought up to the NHL.
Also:
Any move that lands the team someone named “Dubliewicz” and nicknamed “Doobie” is given a ‘green’-light by me
Big Smoke Sports - We Burn The Buds, Roll The Raps, and Smoke The Jays
It is broke, but don't fix it.
Isn’t this season going exactly according to plan? Ice a competitive, exciting team that loses as many one goal games as possible, suffers the odd blow-out, but maintains a shot at a top five pick.
Let’s look at the options:
1. Call up Pogge to replace Cujo
Does this give Pogge the ice-time he needs to continue developing? What happens if the Leafs D continues to stand around and Pogge’s sv% is in the 700s? Too many variables for me to go with this option.
2. Get a decent back-up to replace Cujo
So the Leafs get an extra win every five games. Great. Those extra points will be so rewarding when the Leafs finish out of the playoffs and draft 13th overall.
3. Get a warm body to replace Toskala
The Leafs pay $4M for Toskala to sit on the bench and see his trade value plummet like Lehmann Brothers stock. The incoming goalie plays marginally better and the Leafs draft eight instead of having a lottery pick.
4. Do nothing
Either Toskala turns this thing around and becomes nice trade bait at the deadline or the Leafs continue to pile up the losses guaranteeing a nice high draft pick. I don’t see how this isn’t the best option.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
MF is right
There’s n better option. We need to lose. And I have a feeling Burke’s going to help that process along bigtime. He likes making a draft day splash – I think he really wants a shot at Tavares.
I'm on the boat
With mf there
"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)
Burke
Will move heaven and earth to get Tavares AND Hedman. Just a prediction.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Isn’t this season going exactly according to plan? Ice a competitive, exciting team that loses as many one goal games as possible, suffers the odd blow-out, but maintains a shot at a top five pick.
Yes. I remember that being described as the perfect season.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Yes.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Spoiled
by the Quinn years of getting to the second round more than a few times(also obliterating Ottawa hopes as a bonus), it is hard to watch the shit show. I am moving towards accepting it. But I am also a veteran fan who (somewhat) remembers the 80’s and early 90’s poo-teams. It just feels all too familiar….
Rebuilding, not tanking
This team is increasingly reminding me of an 80's team
The only difference is that we expect this team to stop losing eventually, and those teams didn’t. I’m not dead sure why we expect this team to stop losing eventually, but we do.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
And
there were great, standout players then. We don’t have a Salming, Vaive or Clark now.
Rebuilding, not tanking
Tavares
Looks like the next Bossy or Espo. The Leafs have never had a guy like that in my time. I’m moe than happy to lose and long as we stay fun to watch and guys are getting developed.
Just so long as they don’t draft John Anderson and Trevor Johansen instead….
Leaf, the universe and everything.
This city needs a new hamburger czar and I’m totally down with the next John Anderson being drafted by the Leafs.
As someone who watched this team go 12 years with hitting .500, I can do 60 games of bad goaltending in my sleep. As GT pointed out, so long as the kids are developing and showing promise up front, I say bring on the losses.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
My only concern is that if the Leafs pigeonhole on Tavares only. The 2009 draft is exceptionally deep and I’m not sure I would be in favour of absolutely ripping apart the future (IE. give up multiple future picks AND prospects) just for Tavares.
The Leafs’ braintrust one year ago:
John Ferguson Junior
Mike Penny
Jeff Jackson
The Leafs’ braintrust in a week or so:
Cliff Fletcher
Brian Burke
Joe Niewendyk
Dave Nonis
Al Coates
I don’t think we need to worry about piegonholes and limiting choices.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
And that gives me great hope as well. To be honest, I might be more in favor (it’s for you, USA) of trading down from the number one pick (if the Leafs miraculously get it) and getting two top 7 picks – even if that means no Tavares. That’s probably blasphemy, but we’ll see how Tavares ends his last year in junior.
ummm....
this needs to be an ongoing series…..it reminds me of muppet v muppet which is the best series of posts in all of blogdom!
"Holy crip!! He's a CRAPPLE!!!"
I can see it now
TASTES GREAT!
LESS FILLING!
Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing
I love Muppet v. Muppet.
If people like it we’ll keep doing it. Colbert knows I love doing them. We just need more topics where it’s easy to disagree.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
I think you should debate who has better goaltending, Sens or Leafs.
by James Mirtle on Nov 27, 2008 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
The sens are enjoying a nice little run of goaltending. As long as Gerber isn’t in the net it might continue.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
one bad game (I’m saying Toskala V anyone before last night bad) and his confidence will he shot
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 28, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions

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