Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Explaining Jeremy Lin's Early, Surprising Success

The Maple Leafs' Goaltending Dilemma

 We had huge plans of doing previews for all of the individual players but then Burke made some trades and there was actual competition for positions and then players were sent to the Marlies and then, well, life happened. So instead, you get three previews that'll go by position. If you don't like it...well, you can write your own player previews. 

We're going to start out with the most controversial of all topics: the Toronto Maple Leafs' goaltending situation. Since the lockout the Leafs have been 21st, 25th, 27th, and 30th in goals against. What to do about the team's goaltending this year has become a very passionate debate on par with the Great Sundin Debates of Aught Eight. To say it's generated some heat would an understatement. Obviously, what Chemmy and I wish would happen is that someone hypnotise Vesa Toskala, tell him it's the 2003-2004 season so that he might be tricked into returning to a time when he was posting elite numbers because since then he has been average at best and terrible at worst. This isn't some witch hunt inspired by a couple of (now seemingly regularly occurring) softies. This is a request that the acknowledgement be made that Toskala, at the age of 32 and after numerous surgeries, returning to his best form in Toronto (year one) is neither likely nor good enough. After the jump, I'll show you some numbers that will likely make you cry so before that I'd invite to watch this video and build up some (or more) sympathy for the guy with this video. To the accompaniment of I Tried So Hard by Bone Thugs N Harmony:

    

 

Star-divide

Now some people have suggested that Toskala is being magically thrown under the bus without any provocation. Yes, the comment that Toskala has 'sucked for 7000 minutes' comment was me and it was mostly facetious because it should have read "he's been mediocre for 7000 minutes'. I'm not going to sit idly by and let crap and misleading statistics be spouted in defence of the Finnish goaltender because all they do is prove that Mark Twain was right when he said, "there are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics." Especially when the source has consistently taken the correct path previously.

Many will defend his ability, arguing that he is a skilled goalie playing behind a suspect defense. Frankly, that might be true in an individual game, but over the long haul, trends are definitely discernible...Either way, Toskala's recent level of play can not continue if this team hopes to improve elsewhere on the ice.

- Steve, November 9th, 2008

Toskala_cumulative_medium

This sad graph shows Toskala's cumulative save percentage over the course of his 119 appearances as a Toronto Maple Leaf. A .900 save percentage has somehow become a benchmark for suitability as an NHL calibre goaltender. His cumulative save percentage bottoms out at .865 and peaks at .909.

However, a closer look shows that in 2007-2008 a .900Sv% would have placed the goalie 38th in the league among goalies that played at least 27 games. Vesa Toskala's .904 was good enough for 31st in the league while his high of .909 would have tied him with Marty Turco and Nikolai Khabibulin for 24th best in the NHL. He ended the year 9th in shots faced while every goalie ahead of him had a better save percentage but one who tied him. One of those goalies, Ilya Bryzgalov, played on a team that finished below the Leafs in the standings. In the top 30 in shots against only Rick DiPietro (.902), Olie Kolzig (.892), Johan Holmqvist (.898), and Chris Mason (.898) had worse save percentages. Even worse, the goalies for three  teams that finished below the Maple Leafs in the standings had goalies with better save percentages.

2008-2009 is obviously a much worse example. The mythical benchmark of .900 would have left Toskala in 37th place among goalies that played at least 27 games while his real save percentage of .891 had him in 44th place. The only goalies behind him were Chris Osgood, who kills the theory that good defensive teams make good goalies all of the time, Johan Hedberg, and Manny Legace. His peak cumulative save percentage would have placed him in 28th along with Ty Conklin and Cristobal Huet. He faced the 20th most shots in the league and obviously everyone above him had a better save percentage. But what about the team's awfulness?

Before anyone defends Toskala against my horrible criticisms, and argues that the Leafs as a team have played a proo game defensively in fron of him...they should consider the fact that I'm including Atlanta, the New York Islanders, Dallas, St. Louis, Los Angeles, Columbus, and every cruddy NHL franchise so far this season in my analysis.

- Steve, December 23rd, 2008

Exactly. The point of those numbers is to highlight that Toskala has been nothing more than mediocre during his tenure with the Leafs. Even if he recaptures the best long-term form of his time in Toronto it won't land in the top half of the league. Is that what we want to settle for? As for the San Jose days? His last year in 2006-2007 he only played 38 games and posted a .908 save percentage. The year prior he played 37 games and had a save percentage of .901 behind the eleventh and fifth ranked teams in the standings respectively. You have to go back to his 28 games played in 2003-2004 to see a save percentage worth getting excited over when he posted a .930 figure. What are the odds that a 32 year old coming off of multiple surgeries will recapture that form? Ultimately, this sums up my thoughts on Toskala

I'm not saying that Toskala is incapable of good goaltending. He is more than capable of a good stretch of play. What he has yet to provide the Leafs with is a solid run of play that lasts more than 6 or 7 games.

- Steve, November 10th, 2008

Toskala_gbg_medium

This is a graph of Toskala's game-by-game save percentage. It looks like he is having a heart attack which is what most Leaf fans can feel coming on every time a shot is directed towards the net. Here are some numbers from that graph:

  • His longest streak with a save percentage over .900: 6 games done once
  • Other streaks of a better than .900 save percentage: 4 games - twice, 3 - seven times, 2 - seven times
  • His longest streak with a save percentage below .900: 7 games done once
  • Other streaks of a worse than .900 save percentage: 5 games - once, 4 games - once, 3 games - six times, 2 games - five times.
  • Overall he's posted the following number of games in each range of save percentages: .900+ - 59 times, .800-.899 - 45 times, .700-.799 - 10 times, .600-.699 4 times, .500-.599 - once

That gives you 59 games above .900sv% and 60 games below it. That's the definition of mediocre. Now, you can pick and choose short snippets of his time in Toronto when he looked good and try to ignore the fact that the more games that you look at the worse he looks. But why stop with him? Mikhail Grabovski is an equally streaky player:

As Dobber pointed out in his seasons previews for fantasy hockey: "He had the following runs last year, in order: two points in 11 games; 16 in 14; six in 20; and he finished off the year with 16 in 13."

Look at that! 32 points in 27 games! Over 82 games that works out to 97 points. HOLY SHIT! Unfortunately, the reality is that any improvement in Grabovski's game will be much less dramatic than that just like any improvement from Toskala most likely won't be enough to get him into the level where the Maple Leafs need their goaltending to be in order to improve enough to a. keep that first rounder they traded to Boston from becoming Taylor Hall and b. make the playoffs. So what to do?

Unfortunately, the alternative is to throw rookie Jonas Gustavsson, he of the microscopic GAA and astounding GAA in the SEL, to the wolves. Ideally the plan would be to ease him into the NHL with a couple of spot starts and some strong practice time to make up for his abbreviated training camp. Ultimately, the Leafs will have to determine whether The Monster is going to be the future of the Leafs in net or if he is just the next Mikael Tellqvist. Ron Wilson has already stated emphatically that Vesa Toskala is the man in net starting on Thursday but the Leafs can't afford to give him too long to find his feet after a couple of major surgeries and the hiring of a new goalie coach. The race for eighth place will be tight and every point lost in October will be sorely missed come April not to mention those in November.

At 32 years of age and six years removed from his last flirtation with an elite save percentage Vesa Toskala is clearly not the man that will be tending net when the Leafs become Stanley Cup contenders. It's going to either be Jonas Gustavsson, James Reimer, or some other goalie that we cannot even imagine at this moment. If it's not The Monster than Joey MacDonald needs to come up because missing the playoffs might not be a disaster for a rebuilding team but for one that has sacrificed it's first rounder finishing in the lottery because they kept the faith with a mediocre goalie would be one.

So it's clear that this is not just a knee-jerk reaction as much as some try to paint it. This is not a case of Leaf fans being fickle. We are demanding better than we have seen over two seasons. As for the injuries, yes, they had an affect on Vesa but it's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt when he chose to hide his injury from November 11th until he was called out by Brian Burke at which point he finally sought treatment. Even if that's held up as a reason to have hope his recent record suggests that an improvement likely won't amount to much. Toskala will be given the starter's job along with the rope to hang himself if he fails. I hope to God he doesn't but at the same time that rope better be pretty damn short because there is only one way that the Leafs will have any hope of improving:

If the Leafs hope to improve, they need a HUGE improvement in their goaltending, and they need it ASAP.

- Steve, November 17th, 2008

I agree completely.

Poll
What do you think will happen with Vesa Toskala this year?
Move his save percentage into the top 15 of goalies
24 votes
Move into top 16-30
100 votes
End up outside of the top 30
52 votes
End up hanging from a lampost outside of the ACC tarred and feathered
90 votes

266 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 120 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Toskala's wonky groin

Solid analysis, I think my favourite line was this:

“This is not a case of Leaf fans being fickle. We are demanding better than we have seen over two seasons.”

As they should be. Hopefully this is the season where Leafs’ playoff hopes aren’t resting on New Jersey losing in regulation.

by hockeyhead on Oct 1, 2009 9:38 AM EDT reply actions  

so your saying Toskala is hopelessly mediocre?

Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions  

For you PPP

Sex Panther. 60% of the time, it works everytime.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions  

BWAHAHA

I freaking forgot to add that…yet.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Vesa Toskala studied goaltending at Ryerson.

Leafs Rumination: hockey and sesquipedalianism.

by puckurgently on Oct 1, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

FLAGGED

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I BELIEVE IN THE MONSTER!!!

Read the Blog and follow your Hunger

by Hungry Leafs Fan on Oct 1, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions  

I believe on ghosts

Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

i believe at zombies.

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

chris chelios wants your brains

Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

i remember the day

i hit the requirements for the Chelios unlockable in Left for Dead.

You have to light 40,000 infected on fire using Cheli’s Chili.

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

hahah i’ve got to keep playing i guess

by Ando Rich on Oct 1, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the people voting "move into top 16-30"

Why do you think that this will happen?
Will it be over an entire season as the starter?
And is it good enough?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

1) I think that he can do it, and with improved defense in front of him, improved health, and a backup who is a legitimate threat, I think there’s a good chance that he will do it.

2) Yes; or at least a 1-1A rotation.

3) Enough for what? To keep his job? Yes. To make the playoffs? Based on last year, this would probably be enough. To be a contender? No. Not on this team.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Oct 1, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

1) Blind Hope
2) No (Well maybe a real platoon situation like in San Jose)
3) No

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Oct 1, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

To expand on my last point. PFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTT

In all seriousness though, It may be deemed “Good enough” but not for me I want better for this team and maybe that is because I was spoiled by watching CuJo and Eddie guard the braided bread baskets (Go Bowen!) but I don’t want to merely be average.

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Oct 1, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I voted 16-30.

I think the much improved blueline with both lessen the total amount of shots on net, and cut back on the amount of quality scoring chances that our netminders face. I see low quality perimeter shots being the norm for what the goalies face.

Toronto as a team averaged 30.3 SOG last year, 17th in the league. I see that number going down. Let us not forget, Luke Schenn led the league last year in blocked shots. Add to that that we’ve drastically improved our shut down line, and added shut down d-men in Happy Trails and Komikazi, and I see fewer quality opportunities for Toskala to let the puck through.

That being said, I don’t see Toskala being the #1 goalie for the second half of the season. I wager that The Monster beats him out for the job. Even to get into the top 30, alls he needs is a .906 average; which is average. The Monster has potential to break .920. If he does that through 10-15 starts, Wilson and Burke would be labeled morons for not having him be the #1 starter. End of the year, I expect 45+ starts for Monster, with Toskala and McDonald picking up the rest.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Schenn led all rookies it looks like, not the whole league?

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Whoops. yeah just rookies. Also, Komi was 4th in the league, Finger 18th, Schenn 58th, White 61st. Pretty good stat line.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

increased block shots alone should help out Vesa! maybe not sv%, but hopefully GAA.

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

82 games of Komisarek will reduce the GAA significantly. Komi is a puck sponge

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

1) I’m trying to be reasonable and optimistic.

2)Hopefully

3) If we make the playoffs, for sure.

More: Top 15 is tough, there’s a lot of good goaltenders and the difference between 14-18 is probably very slight. I wouldn’t be satisfied with 19-30 and I doubt he can climb into the top 13.

by general borschevsky on Oct 1, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

optimism?

I voted that based on nothing more than it needs to happen. No evidence that it will. Just NEEDS to. If the Leafs get sub .900 goaltending this franchise is absolutely fucked.

No playoffs, maxed out salary on long term contracts, and no 1st rounders for two years. Absolutely fucked.

If it happens, I will be here in March calling for the Leafs to qualify Schenn and hope somebody throws big money at him as an RFA so they can restock picks.

Them’s the breaks, I’m afraid

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Leafs aren’t maxed out on salary. They have a ton coming off the books next year

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Oct 1, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

names please

they are within 500K now.

I don’t think the roughly $6M they get when Poni, Stajan and Stempniak are off the books can fix a team that (if it happens) misses the playoffs when they were there.

Up to $10M if you add Vesa’s money in there. Even then, $10 million doesn’t buy you the scoring forwards and a starting tender they would need to get to 8th, much less contend.

(…funny, usually my dread doesn’t kick in until the puck has actually been dropped on the first period of the first game….)

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Stajan and Stempniak will be replaced with rookies next year in Kadri and Hanson/Stefanovich, who are on cheap entry level contracts.

Poni probably gets resigned. The Monster takes over Vesa’s cap hit, and you pick up a quality backup. VanRyn is off the books, and Finger hopefully gets traded. Also, no more Raycroft buyout!!

There’s going to be plenty of cap room for high level FA talent next year. And with the “excess” of players, Burke only needs 1 or 2 signings to get great.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kadri

I don’t think he’ll start next year with us.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

marlies?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

probably

see: Ryan, Bobby. Getzlaf, Ryan and Perry, Cory.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

fine with me, just do this right, even if it takes another 2 seasons or so. I want to be top 4 in the east for a decade with at least 1 or 2 trips to the finals… is that really too much to ask!?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Stajan lover :P

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

hahaha

riiiiight.

No, it’s just not Burke’s pattern. We’ll see though.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Kadri puts on 20-25 lbs of muscle he’ll play 82 games with the Leafs.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Oct 1, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

again...

that’s based on Jonas supplanting Vesa and giving us .900+. I said if they don’t get it, they’re fucked. They have to spend that $4 million somewhere on a G. Minimum.

If Jonas can go 900-910 then fine. Sign him long term in the $3-$5M range, depending on other factors.

As for the rest of the cash, by July 1 our vaunted collegians will also be RFAs looking for raises next year if they prove to be anything resembling a hill of beans. Which gobbles up the free-up money from departing plugs.

Add it all up and I again say the group we have now has GOT TO get it done. I could see them adding one top-tier UFA and that’s it next year, on the hopes that the current core has the stuff to complement him.
 
Burke has made his bet. By the end of this year, it has be on the path to working, otherwise it’ll take another 2-3 years to unwind.

The goaltending has got to giv’er.

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Check here

Kessel, Orr and Komi are the only ones committed to after the 11/12 season, So yeah 2 years to unwind if this turns into a complete shit show sounds about right. But I don’t exactly see that happening

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Oct 1, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd

this should be stored away somewhere for future use, I’m sure this will come up time and time again this season.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

indeed, i likey

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

capgeek.com They’re the best.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oohh Shiny, I like that one better

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Oct 1, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

woah, is bozak’s contract really 3.75m per year?

Currently tracking outbreaks of Hogtown Flu, specifically the LS02 strain.

by Robot Godzilla on Oct 1, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

after bonus’s yeah,

Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

holy crap. does he have to score like 70 points and get 25 goals or something?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the reason we should feel pretty good about the cap situation is our depth means one could create a pretty strong roster next year with NONE of those UFAs. I’m not suggesting these as line combinations, just showing the depth:

Hagman Kadri Kessel
Blake Grabovski Stalberg
Tlusty Bozak Hanson
Orr Mitchell Kulemin

Rosehill

Kaberle Komi
Beauchemin Schenn
White Finger

Gustavsson
Reimer

There’s going to be lots of money to play with and my prediction is the Leafs will be one of the very few teams to have both (a) money and (b) cap space. I don’t think the UFA market will be that great but look out for the Leafs to come to the “rescue” of teams like the Hawks with cap problems.

by The '67 Sound on Oct 1, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll stop being the Chicken Little

for today since we’re basking in the glow of a new season of limitless potential, but I really don’t see this happening. (Leafs being huge UFA players next year)

Like I said, it really needs to happen, so I’ll leave it at this:

Come on Vesa, and Go Leafs Go.

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am just curious as to why, not trying to pick a fight, but with our UFA alone we have 18.18 mil coming off the cap. A full 20Mil if you count both Frogren and Joey MacDonald. Yes hopefully Gustassvon plays well enough to deserve a raise but is he going to start making in the top 5 mil or 6 mil range for a goalie? I doubt it. He is still too new.

Burke will likely spend to the cap again as we are “Big Blue” So we will have money to spend. Plus more money to bury in the minors if it needs to be done…..

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Oct 1, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

to argue we’re f’d on the cap is ridiculous. we have one of the best cap situations in the whole league. we’ll only have 2 players making more than $5M (kessel and komi, unless i’m missing someone) and a bunch of UFAs we can let go and replace with rookies.

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

$20 million and nearly 10 NHL bodies

I agree, the Leafs can use their “relative” depth of legit NHL players (but not too many stars) to their advantage.

But the $18M figure you cite, it’s not like they can go buy three $6 million snipers. They have nearly an entire NHL roster coming off the books. That none of them are irreplaceable talent-wise is good, but they still have to be replaced.

I think they’ll eat up well over $10 million replacing their 3 and 4-line pluggers, and a few AHL guys will be able to chip in. At best, I really think they’re left with maybe $6 million to play with. That’s ONE top-tier NHL player.

And to get to the point of this whole thread, that scenario is entirely dependent on getting NHL-average tending out of Vesa or Jonas (or someone else) for $5 million worth of goaltending tandem.

To wit, we need a Monstrous goaltending display this year.

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Young guys can fill the 3-4 line roles for cheap. Orr, Wallin (like him to be resigned), Mitchell, Rosehill, Deveraux, Ondrus, probably pick up a cheap Primeaux look-a-like who is 5 years younger.

We have no problem filling the 1-2 with the depth we have now: College line, plus Kessel line (Blake, Hagman, Phil), plus Soviet line. It can be done. Stajan, Poni and Stempniak are replaced. Kadri waits another year.

by Leaf in Habland on Oct 1, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

As far as goalies go, I voted 16-30 because that is the best case scenario. .910 would be a crazy improvement. Perhaps Francois Allaire can make it happen?

by Leaf in Habland on Oct 1, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kovalchuk and Marc Savard…… mmmm droools

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dear Atlanta,

I have some toronto draft picks for sale. For the low, low price of one russian sniper, YOU TOO can draft where the Leafs would in the first round. CALL TODAY MR. WADDELL, WE’D LOVE TO SPEAK WITH YOU

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Oct 1, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

you may be on hold for a while

Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

not to mention we dont have any picks

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh sorry, that was the bruins fan speaking….

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope we’re not getting UFA’s like Kovalchuk. More like guys that teams need to unload to get under the cap. We will probably have to take some cap fodder as well, so much of this depends on MLSE’s willingness to make the Marlies the highest paid team in the AHL.

Cornelius, I desperately hope that you trade your two firsts for Ilya at the deadline. You’ll never be able to re-sign him without unloading existing talent (Burkie’s waiting!) and the Leafs aren’t shooting for the Cup this year.

That would mean you would have traded 21 year old Phil Kessel for two months of Kovalchuk and a second. As a division rival, that would be awesome. If you cripple your future we win; if you win the Cup, better a team like the Bruins than some joke like the Bolts or Canes (or some team I really hate like the Flyers).

by The '67 Sound on Oct 1, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know it’s completely unrealistic and we don’t even have the space for him cap-wise, but I’m using Ilya as a symbolic placeholder for someone that we will be able to use to help. Mark Recchi turned out to be a good pickup.

Montador not so much. I’m hoping for more recchi-style signings (or fewer guys hurt so we don’t need it – that would work too)

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Oct 1, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kovalchuk sucks hard.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Oct 1, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Top 16-30

I think it’ll happen because he has a better team in front of him, he won’t face as many chances, and those that he does face will hopefully not be as hard to save.
No, I don’t believe he’ll be the starter all season. He’ll platoon at best, back up at worst (I expect the platoon for him to improve).
It’s OK, I guess, I think it’ll be enough to keep the team in front of him playing well and from shattering the confidence of our young guys.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably copying the thoughts of others here, but…

1. I just think the lessons from Allaire will click in, he’ll be more confident and face fewer high-quality shots with an improved D in front of him, and he’ll be motivated and healthy enough to do his thing. So blind faith basically.
2. I’m hoping it will be as part of a platoon with Monster, so Vesa doesn’t play more than 50 games total.
3. Good enough to be in the playoffs hopefully, or at least right in the mix, and high enough so that we won’t have to see Taylor Hall wearing a Bruins uni.

Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!

by stucky on Oct 1, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

In the immortal words of Ice-T
“Don’t hate the playa, hate the game.”

Being 100% honkey, I have no real idea what that means….

Vesa – :(

"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Oct 1, 2009 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

YO, THIS GUYS HATES HOCKEY!!! SOMEBODY BOO THIS MAN!!

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

boo?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics

As has been pointed out by thousands of pedants (see? a stat!) before me, Twain did not coin that phrase.

It was British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli. But Twain makes for a better yarn.

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 11:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Was it Disraeli?

hmmm…the more you know.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that Toronto is totally over-reacting to this “goaltending dilemna”.
Toskala was injured for a majority of last season. He had a sub-par preseason, but thats just what it is… Preseason.
Gustavsson has 3 periods of “solid” hockey under his belt. Playing against a Red Wings team that is good, yes. But one that was also playing preseason (meaningless) hockey.
I would love to see Gustavsson eventually supplant Toskala, because his ceiling seems to be a bit higher than Vesa’s. However at the current time, I think that we should give Toskala the benefit of the doubt that he can turn things around now that he is healthy.

by laple meafs on Oct 1, 2009 11:12 AM EDT reply actions  

Me thinks you didn’t get the point that PPP was trying to get across. Even if Toskala turns things around and becomes the goalie he once was; that goalie was mediocre. He had one 28 game season with SJS where he posted a .930 save percentage (and only 12 wins…), but since then he’s hovered around .900, which is not just mediocre; it’s pretty bad.

I think Toronto’s improved defensive corp will improve his numbers a bit, but he’s still not the calibre of goalie that the Leafs need to a playoff run.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I understand the point. I just dont think the fans and media should be yelling “off with his head” before he’s suited up one injury-free regular season game with a legitimate defence in front of him.

by laple meafs on Oct 1, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

What about his time before he was with the Leafs in San Jose behind a top 10 team in the NHL?

How do you explain those numbers?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

when he was backing up Nabokov in SJ, he was getting 25-30 games per year. When a goalie is sent in to random games cold, its harder to put up numbers that compare to in form goalies that play day in day out. Even still, his save% hovered around .920 in those years

by laple meafs on Oct 1, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, he didn't

Toskala posted a .908 save percentage the year before the Leafs traded for him and .901 the year before.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 2, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

the two cup finalists last year were pittsburgh and detroit.

fleury – .912 sv% - 21st
osgood – .887 sv % —-45th

i certainly am not saying that our forwards / offence is anywhere near what pittsburgh and detroit’s are (or defence for that matter), and i defintiely agree that improved goaltending is going to be key for the leafs this year. but stellar goaltending is only one way to success, and isn’t always the deciding factor.

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

thing is

Osgoode saves himself for the playoffs. He’s old now and the team in Detroit is good enough that he doesn’t have to play up to his potential during the regular season for them to make it in. Then, come playoffs, it’s like he flips a switch and becomes a good goalie.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

stellar?

I’m not even asking for stellar. I’m asking for 16-30th in the league.

Fleury’s .912 would be more than acceptable with me from either of our guys. As a team average, even better.

We get that, we’re in the playoffs.

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

totally agreed – if we get .912 from toskala we’re in good shape.

just pointing out that neither cup finalist’s main goaltender had even a top 20 sv%.

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

.912 as a team sv% would be great.

One thing I’d point out is how were they ranked in the playoffs?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

can’t be bothered to look it up, but they were both solid if memory serves.

i’d just love to see vesa play well enough to get to the playoffs, so we can see if he can step it up from there.

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Osgood had a save% of .926 (4th), GAA of 2.06 (2nd), and 2 shutouts (1st)

Fleury had a save% of .908 (8th), GAA of 2.61 (7th), and 0 shutouts (9 goalies had at least one)

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting

That’s a huge jump in Osgood’s save%, definitely backs up what Karina said.

As for Fleury, it looks like a case not of “great all the time” but “great when he needed to be”.

Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!

by stucky on Oct 1, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

And he is getting the chance. He is the number 1,

Most here believe he is not going to get better and to be completely honest here the stats and situation back up their beliefs. Between his age, declining stats and the fact that he is coming off a surgery does not bode well.

I really hope he does well, heck I even voted for 16-30 in the NHL for % (Although I can’t really figure out why now I am reading what I am writing) but which each passing minute that I watch him play I am finding it harder and harder to believe in Vesa Toskala.

Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...

by JohnnyG on Oct 1, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

However at the current time, I think that we should give Toskala the benefit of the doubt that he can turn things around now that he is healthy.

Yeah, Toskala is going to be the starter for the reason you stated, namely that Gustavsson is super green. But a bad start to the season can carry through.

I hope that Toskala will magically become better than he has been since before the lockout but I don’t know if I’d give him the benefit of the doubt.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having said all I need to say on this issue, (and feeling better since having done so, thank you very much) I’ll just say that I hope we see some breath-taking goaltending from the Vesa tonight.
If not, at least I’ll be in good company.

"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09

by kidkawartha on Oct 1, 2009 11:21 AM EDT reply actions  

ditto

except ironically, if Vesa does stand on its head and pitch a 38-save shutout wit multiple game-savers, what does that say of our much-vaunted, nearly $30M defence?

Oh man, I hate being a Leaf fan some days. The pessimism has hit early and unexpectedly.

But this post needed to be said, PPP.

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not gonna lie, i didn’t read any of the post, I just skipped to the comments.

Charts and Pies are for Smart People and Wellwood.

Getting saltier by the post.

by ohshrit on Oct 1, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Graphs?!?

Do you wear a suit to Leafs games and make graphs? If so, you’re a redneck douche.

by Another Good Kingston Boy on Oct 1, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions  

I love getting a head start on drinking the day of a Leafs game too.

"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09

by kidkawartha on Oct 1, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

why are you taking shots at me? we’ve never even met, man!

by daoust on Oct 1, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope

I wear a signed Wendel Clark jersey to the standing room section and am not afraid of numbers.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

arent you afriad to get your signed jersey stained with shit? im terrified to bust out my signed sundin jersey but i think i will today….

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

A little

I am very careful and also I will murder anyone that wrecks it.

Plus, Wendel’s still alive so he can sign another one.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow

you say like that’s easy to get done…

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

PPP’s got the connections

Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

even i’ve met wendel…

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry

I’d just woke up and for some reason a graph showing me how much Toskala blow’s when I’ve been fuming about him already this week must’ve put me over the edge.

by Another Good Kingston Boy on Oct 1, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what's coming

I BELIEVE IN VESA TOSKALA

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Oct 1, 2009 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

drunk already eye?

Getting saltier by the post.

by ohshrit on Oct 1, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

i wish i was drunk already….. this has been the longest day of work ever

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

whats the over/under on injured Habs tonight?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

How many people are they suiting up?

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha enough guys so each leaf gets his own hab to injure

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Orr vs Laraque

After the first commercial break.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Oct 1, 2009 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

heh, wouldn tthat be one of those ‘staged’ fights that THN keeps bitchin about…
Rosehill vs Gionta! yea baby!

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

geez hope there is a priest and a morgue nearby. Rosehill vs Moen. That would shut up all these Habs fans who think Moen is the next Jesus Price

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Oct 1, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, look who called it.

"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09

by kidkawartha on Oct 2, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Toskala - Helsinki Hellcats - Beer League

I hope B.B. pulls the trigger on Toskala very quickly. Everybody knows Burke doesn’t like him or trust him. We need Jonas down with the Marlies getting some game action while MacDonald plays and tries to hold the fort. I am not worried about tonite, but I am worried about Saturday in Washington.

Godd Till?

by HabHater on Oct 1, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Oct 1, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I need some help Chemmy.

Great to be here. Great site bro’! Middle of the morning here in China now. 3:20 a.m. Drinking Great Wall of China vino prepping for game time. Just want to know this: how do I change Godd Till? to Wiger Tilliams? I hope Wiger Tilliams ain’t taken. Thanks man! God, I miss Toronto. Will be with all you cats and catettes in spirit this evening Leaf time, this morning China time. GO LEAFS GO!

Godd Till?

by HabHater on Oct 1, 2009 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

is there a buzz in the city for opening night?…. or not so much….?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Oct 1, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

they had a parade today

to celebrate the opening of the Leafs season in beijing.

or so i heard

by pevans on Oct 1, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions  

It occurs to me that the best thing Toskala has ever done as a Leaf is concede a shootout goal to Mats Sundin in a game against the Canucks.

Make of that what you will.

"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer

by article1 on Oct 1, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions  

Pevans. Parade in Beijing.

T’was truly an awesome sight in Beijing today. Sadly, I must report the parade was not in the Leafs honour. I am lobbying President Hu Jintao of China Nation along with President Brian Burke of Leaf Nation to hold their parade in honour of the Leafs next year. Awesome firepower display today. Something like what we will see tonight against the Scabs, oops, the Habs. Offensive firepower awesome. Defensive missile systems excellent. Nuclear deterrent also excellent as our last defence. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of Toronto as long as Vesa remains our nuclear deterrent and final line of defence.

Godd Till?

by HabHater on Oct 1, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Yanno`

It’s hard to argue with myself… but I do it at least once a day.

Seriously though, I do realize Toskala has been pretty sub par for the past two years. I guess the reason for all my argumentativeness over the past week was that I feel that pre-season is horribly over-rated as a measuring stick of any NHL player.

I just think we should wait until he screws up in the regular season before we tar and feather him… or whatever the plan is.

Plus… I just like to argue for the sake of arguing, but I think you guys already knew that.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2009 4:34 PM EDT reply actions  

and we love you for it

Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would like to add that

Toskala’s numbers last season prior to his injury were almost identical to his numbers from the previous season. Not stellar, but not as bad as the majority of last season. Theoretically if he can get back to THAT level, and then the Leafs D improves, he should be able to get beyond that hurdle… or not.

If he sucks again this year I’m putting the over-under at 10 starts. Other’s thoughts?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’ll definitely start more than 10 games. No way Monster puts in 72 starts in his first season unless he’s pitching a shutout every other night.

If you mean 10 games for Vesa until Monster is made the #1; I’ve still got the over.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by truculent osmosis.

by SkinnyFish on Oct 1, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except for the fact

that they have Joey MacDonald to call up should Toskala crap the bed. So I’m still putting it around 10 games… if Toskala is horrible, and he’s the reason they’re losing points in the standings, I don’t see Burke waiting long to pull the trigger.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

me too

no way Gustavsson plays 72 games, Joey Mac can platoon with him, I could see him getting 20 games, and Gustavsson around 50 at the most.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Oct 1, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Your best source for quality Toronto Maple Leafs news, rumours, analysis, stats and scores from the fan perspective.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Frank_serpico_by_drawmanou_small
How to Value Mikhail Grabovski

Recent FanPosts

N907005365_1934770_7971_small
Leafs vs. Habs and the red hot $cott Gomez!!
Black_sox_small
First-time jersey purchase
Blawrie_small
Irresponsible Speculation Time
Syrupglleaf17lg_small
The Stretch Drive Schedule: DIY Analysis (AKA I have way too much time on my hands)
Leafs_small
Heartbreaking S-O Loss to Penguins
N907005365_1934770_7971_small
Complaining like an All-Star
Small
Mental Health and Kevin Bieksa
Leafs_small
AllStar Fantasy Draft........P'neuf Already
Frank_serpico_by_drawmanou_small
Team Defense Cap Hit vs. Performance

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

StatCounter

wordpress visitor


Chief Blogging Officers

Calvin_small PPP

Aen1_small Chemmy

PPP's Girlfriends

Don_t_panic_small SkinnyFish

Picture_1_small JP Nikota

Fg_small birky

Christian-hanson-wrecks-brian-o_1__small Bower Power