Remembrance Day
by Chemmy on Nov 11, 2009 9:42 AM EST
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Being an American who follows the Leafs from his home in New England I get an interesting look into the subtle cultural differences between the Northeast and Canada. To be honest there's less of a difference between being in Massachusetts and Ontario than there is between Massachusetts and Arizona, but because Canada is an entirely different country there's an asymptote of sorts at the border with regards to media coverage.
In Canada, the CBC's Hockey Night In Canada is broadcast nationally and is one of the most watched shows on Canadian TV. During the first intermission the CBC broadcasts "Coach's Corner": a segment where a delusional claptrap (Don Cherry, pictured above with wacky suit) insults foreigners and his generally knowledgeable but meek co-host (Ron McLean, pictured above in a normal suit looking embarassed).
Don Cherry's a very polarizing figure and like the "US vs. Canada" argument above it's out of scope for what we're getting to: Don Cherry does at least one thing that we all understand and respect.
At the end of every Coach's Corner since the Canadian occupation of Afghanistan began, Don Cherry shows pictures of fallen Canadians in their dress uniforms. Most weeks he reads their names aloud live on the air along with what hockey team they rooted for and where they were from. This video is from November 7th, 2009, and is a sort of recap of all the soldiers who gave their lives for their country:
The video isn't about Don's personal agenda regarding the war. There's no politicking about whether or not what the Canadian Forces are doing is right or wrong. Don Cherry through the CBC is simply showing Canadian viewers young men and women that have died for their country recently and it's enormously powerful.
Hockey Night in Canada is one of the most watched shows in Canada, its American equivalent would be something like Monday Night Football or American Idol; it's something that's watched in most houses religiously. So on Remembrance Day or Veteran's Day my point is this:
Monday Night Football and American Idol or their equivalents should be doing what Don Cherry does: showing Americans who have fallen in battle to remind people that the wars we tacitly accept as some sort of nebulous problem somewhere else are real events with real consequences. They're not something to be acknowledged solely on Remembrance Day like a senile relative whose family only visits near Christmas. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan shouldn't be something people accept as just happening: people are dying and the great majority of Americans don't have that fact in their faces on a weekly basis.
Don Cherry, whom I personally find generally entertaining even though he may be someone's unvisited xenophobic crazy relative in another universe, provides a powerful message through his broadcasts and it's something I wish CBS, NBC, or ABC was gutsy enough to do.
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I love Don, and I fully support him and his desire to have the fallen troops honoured on HNIC. I think its something we need to be reminded of as most of us take for granted what an amazing life we all really have. These troops are the real heros of our world, not NHL players, and Im glad Don is allowed to honour them.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
I like that the segment happens during a hockey game, not during the news. Plenty of people don’t watch the news.
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For all the crazed rambling that Cherry does each and every week
I find it very, very class of him to salute the brave heroes who fight for our freedom on the front lines, and risk their lives in doing so.
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
heh, i usually agree with what Don has to say. Its not as crazed as people make it out to be. He is just old and has a hard time spitting out what he is trying to say, but if you get past the stuttering and the fact he tries to fit so much in to such a small amount of time you can see what he is getting at
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 11, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
just doesn't fit...
Difficult subject – yes I definitely get teary eyed every time I think about what some of our vets were subjected to, the sacrifice should be carefully honoured.
Still, I find the constant Saturday night dead soldier of the week a little maudlin, and out of context to the looney banter that is Cherry’s world.
I honour the sacrifices of past generations. I feel our current volunteer force is being needlessly exposed to a bunch of crazy zealots in a “war” (really an out of control policing action) that can not be won. What a waste, what terrible political leadership….(there I’m tearing up again)
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 10:14 AM EST reply actions
out of context
That’s exactly what it is and exactly why it is meaningful.
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by Chemmy on Nov 11, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But what he does is amazing in that it doesn’t bring the political part of the war effort into it, the fact that some people might find this war pointless doesn’t change the fact that these people have died fighting for something they believe in, something that every Canadian, through the power of indirect democracy, also figuratively believes in.
Plus, its really moving when Cherry names off the soldiers who have died and you can hear him choking up, it shows that just like many of us, who may say or do things that others disagree with, he is a human who has his priorities in order.
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something that every Canadian, through the power of indirect democracy, also figuratively believes in.
Statements like this really bother me. The whole point of the sacrifice today recognises is that nobody gets to decide what every <whatever> believes in. The fact that we get to disagree about everything from the necessity of war to the necessity of some local council ordinance is something to cherish. That’s one of the things I love most about Cherry’s soldier segments: it puts the issue in the forefront and makes us have the argument.
Great post, Chemmy. I would love to see something like this happen on Monday Night Football.
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by puckurgently on Nov 11, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
I guess when I said “believe” i meant more like “support”… technically we voted in the government, and they chose to go to war, so basically we chose to go to war…. sorry for the confusion.
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No less absurd. People are not their governments.
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by puckurgently on Nov 11, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Not actually, but technically the Government is designed to represent the people.
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But it doesn’t. Especially in a plurality rule system, even when the governing party does the best possible job of adhering to the platform on which it was elected (which is never), it’s still representing, what, a third of the people? And even most of them compromised something to pick that team.
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by puckurgently on Nov 11, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
But its not just the governing party that makes decisions, the opposing parties also have seats and a say in government, especially in a minority system like we have had the last few years. For the most part, the government’s actions are supported by the population; usually when they aren’t its just a case of a misinformed/naive population (i.e. the whole “a coalition is undemocratic” thing)
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Before this turns into a stupid political debate
All I was trying to say is that:
1) He isn’t politicizing it, meaning its acceptable
2) Even people who don’t agree with the cause of the war should accept this segment because they government they elected chose to go into the war.
That’s it.
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the government they elected
Unless they were part of the population that voted against them. This is the crux of the argument.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
no
that’s democracy.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yes of course it is but democracy doesn’t end at the ballot box.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a long line of people affecting change while not elected to any office that disagree.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Quoting Churchill? Because he was such a nice man…
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
Read the Wit of Winston Churchill. That guy was funny.
And a great man I thought…
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But we’ll gloss over the whole ‘Wanting to gas Iraqis’ episode
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
exactly
so “the government they elected” argument is a cop out.
it’s democracy, elected government or not, you still have the ability and power to make your voice heard.
and that is why today people are honoring fallen soldiers.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Chemmy hit the nail on the head.
Truth be told, things are not all that different in California. Not in the day to day at least. It’s the little things (not saying this should be considered trivial or “little”) that truly highlight the differences in our countries.
In the states, during the former president’s tenure, there was a ban on photographs of the coffins of fallen soldiers returning home. In Canada, things like this occurred.
During a time of war, I can think of no reason as to why I should not be constantly reminded of the price being paid.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 10:21 AM EST reply actions
During a time of war, I can think of no reason as to why I should not be constantly reminded of the price being paid.
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Great thought Chemmy.
The American ignoring of war dead is a pretty recent phenomena. They used to cover it much more in past conflicts.
Although Cherry’s exact format might not works so well in the States, just because there are so many more casualties for the Americans (the American army being much bigger, and they’re in Iraq too, which Canada never was) making it difficult to list them all. There’s well over 1,000 American ones by now.
and the Mustache of Truculence (formerly Canada4Mizzou)
Then it’s going to take a while to read all of their names.
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Actually, US casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001 are now at 6195. Yet another thing most Americans have no clue about.
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Fatalities. Many, many more casualties.
In Iraq and Afghanistan, US forces have suffered around 40,000 casualties. Over 5,000 of whom were killed.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2006/12/iraq-medicine/shea-text.html
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In the states, during the former president’s tenure, there was a ban on photographs of the coffins of fallen soldiers returning home. In Canada, things like this occurred.
Harper’s government did deny the media access to the coffins of dead soldiers coming home, just an FYI.
Unable to actually speak French since 1980.
by Pamplemousse on Nov 11, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Good catch
It was just as out of character here.
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yet
people showed up, en masse, to recognize them…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, the Highway of Heroes is pretty awesome.
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Agreed.
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
British war dead are flown back to an airfield outside the town of Wootton Bassett. When the coffins are driven through the town, the streets are always lined with people paying their respects.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
by article1 on Nov 11, 2009 12:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If we really need constant reminders of the sacrifices still being made in the field …what we sorely need is reporting from the field.
With none of the horror being brought into our homes – and only the solemn displays of honouring our dead, it unfortunately adds up to a potent public relations display for continuing support for the war.
I realize that is not a respectful thought for a day that belongs to our dead and injured, so I’ll shut up about the manipulation stuff now.
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 10:31 AM EST reply actions
I don’t think this galvanizes support for the war. Start showing American housewives their dead children on TV and see where public support goes.
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They can do both but to have soldiers’ bodies return under cover of darkness or to have their sacrifices relegated to easily ignored news segments does everyone a disservice.
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It's a generational difference...
Currently the media is far more concerned with reporting on how “things are tough at home” and a housing crisis and whether or not Lindsey Lohan is in rehab this week.
In WW2, things were tough at home, it’s just that people realized how much tougher they were elsewhere…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
Fuck the news, put it on something people watch.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t really watch the news because it reeks of being a smoke and mirrors distraction.
“A house burned down in New York.” And? Who cares? How does this affect my life?
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In the US, we had reporting from the field in the form of “embedded” reporters. Also, who watches the news?
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
I really, really am trying to keep silent on this…but embedded reporters are not reporting. It’s Stars & Stripes stuff -Everything they put out has the military stamp of approval on it. What’s needed is Viet Nam style – in your home with the wounded – no military edits allowed. Then let’s see how long our mothers can stand it.
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Re-reading my comment, it doesn’t have enough shitting on the concept of “embedded” reporting. Thanks.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Simply put, if you don’t have the military’s stamp of approval, you don’t have a story. They used to use a pool system where reporters were lumped together and taken to approved sites to film. So every news outlet used the same stories and the same footage. If a reporter wasn’t in the pool, they got no access.
It’s a very clever form of censorship.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
by article1 on Nov 11, 2009 12:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s not that clever.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
There’s lot’s and lot’s of it, Wendel. The REAL problem is getting any of their work off of their blog pages and onto primetime news spots, when media execs are deciding what is “news” and not news.
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Yep …nothing shows me the conspiracy of $$$ interests in perpetuating the war more than this. The truth is out there, soldiers are blogging about it, and corporate controlled media doesn’t dare publish the dark reality of the situation.
In the 70’s, the media liked nothing more than to dig up whatever dirt they could. Now they fall into line, like little Murdoch drones.
It’s disturbing – but on the upside, it causes me to lose no sleep as these sorry excuses for journalism close down day after day now – paper by paper, station by station.
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
With none of the horror being brought into our homes – and only the solemn displays of honouring our dead, it unfortunately adds up to a potent public relations display for continuing support for the war.
The reason why the American public turned against the Vietnam War was because of reporting from the frontline and the horrific images people were seeing almost live for the first time in human history. Images of severely injured or dead heroes would turn people against the war pretty quickly.
That’s basically what brought an early end to Persian Gulf War. Once images of the Highway of Death were publicized around the world, every called for a stop to the fighting and we declared a seize fire the very next day.
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truth
According to the then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and former Secretary of State Colin Powell, the “shooting gallery” scenes of carnage was the reason to end the Gulf War hostilities after the liberation of Kuwait. He wrote later in his autobiography My American Journey that “the television coverage was starting to make it look as if we were engaged in slaughter for slaughter’s sake.”
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Love how shooting gallery is in quotes. We bombed the front and backs of convoys and then shelled the trapped middle while strafing in airplanes.
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And it’s a less violent tactic than anything in World War II. One thing that annoys me about all the media coverage of war, is that it was always worse. War is much cleaner nowadays and we should be grateful for that.
132 Canadians have died in over 8 years of war in Afghanistan. This number would be much higher if this was over 30 years ago.
Cleaner?
Not by a longshot. 99% of casualties now are civilians.
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Hmmm….didn’t know that.
Still, I would think that more civilians died in a week during the London Blitz than die in a month in Afghanistan.
You cannot begin to argue number here.
The difference here is that back in WWII, Germany was targeting civilians. Today, terrorists and their ilk are using civilians for cover. But they don’t care for The Geneva Convention and have no nations to punish for their crimes, so there is little to be done about it.
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Both sides were bombing civilians. The bombing of Dresden is a good example.
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My freshman year of college they asked if anyone was interested in studying abroad… in Dresden. I asked “Dresden as in the place we firebombed from the outside in fifty years ago?”
No one had any idea.
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
in Afghanistan and Iraq, the argument i’ve heard rationalizing the loss of civilian life is that if they didn’t support the enemy, we wouldn’t be over there.
simplistic and naive. long story short, war is hell. people die. that’s the point of today.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Be careful there. The Allies also targeted civilians. Look at the firebombing atrocity of Hamburg- where the entire city was burned up in one night. or Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
As General Lemay-Doan commented, lets hope we win, our we’re all going to be tried as war criminals.
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
Eh, not sold on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A prolonged ground invasion of Japan likely would have killed way more civilians.
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I concur – but there’s no doubt many of our generals would have been hung as war criminals had the war been lost.
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
History is written by the victorious.
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for the first twenty years. Then the revisions start. Remember when Stalin was our great ally? Then Sadam was our bulwork in the region against Islamic fundamentalism….
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
If the Cold War never happened then Stalin would have been seen as a great ally. Future history changes things.
Some guy at work was railing on about how US involvement in Iraq was justified because they had chemical weapons.
“Of course they had chemical weapons. We knew that they had chemical weapons because we sold them the chemical weapons.”
“That’s all overblown by the media.”
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I’m not up on my WWII or war theory, but Richard Rhodes’ The Making of the Atomic Bomb was one of the best books I read this year.
There was some fascinating debate over selecting targets in Japan. The country was so destroyed, Nagasaki and Hiroshima were chosen as targets as there was virtually nothing left to bomb.
Rhodes’ book won the Pulitzer, The National Book Award, and The National Book Critics Circle Award.
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Not available on Kindle. Sigh.
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What, you’ve given up on paper?
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Nah, just annoying that I bought a Kindle which I love but not everything’s available on it which throws a monkey wrench into the calculations I used to justify its purchase.
Worse than unavailable titles is how lazy a lot of the Kindle versions are; typos galore.
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Wow Chemmy…never had ya figured as the kindle-reader guy on here. Gotta go put my pencil protector in my shirt pocket…..
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
I’m way cooler than PPP, don’t worry.
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excellent point. In all of our obsession over dirty new weapons , we forget the sheer horrific effect of repeated cluster bombing of large civilian areas. The allies were masters at it.
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Fun Fact
Firstly, firebombing of Japanese cities hadn’t started in earnest until the Allies were well on their way to attaining nuclear weapons. Based on this, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were purposely avoided in the area bombing campaign so that they could be used as more or less “pristine” targets so that the total effect of an atomic explosion on an urban area could be accurately assessed. No point in nuking a city that’s already been burned to the ground.
Maybe so, but more people died in the Tokyo firebombing than in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
Another fun fact: this guy survived both atomic bombs.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
that is mainly because the enemy doesn’t care about Civilian casualties and will bomb a market full of children to take out one Canadian soldier.
There are still “accidents” and friendly fire, but, sadly that is the nature of war
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by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
They definitely contribute but the vast majority of civilian deaths are as a result of our actions whether directly (bombing weddings) or indirectly (destroyed infrastructure).
It’s been the nature of war that civilian casualties have increased throughout every armed conflict.
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yeah, mainly through the progression that war has become less civilized, from lining up and shooting at each other to using human shields and guerrilla warfare
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by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
It’s not even just about the insurgents, for example, using human shields.
It’s about using things like Predator drones to bomb targets without ever having confirmation that they are attacking militants
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I remember hearing about the first confirmed Predator kill in the war. Sent shivers down my spine.
Reminds me of the movie “Toys”
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, ever closer to the days of robot war
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by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
This is all part of a very serious and ongoing debate regarding the laws of war. When the line between an enemy soldier and civilians become blurry you end up with some very sticky legal situations. The latest development is the creation of the term “illegal combatant” in international law, the details of which essentially make it unlawful to attack the army with the Hague in its back pocket.
Troubling…
Great stuff Chemmy, completely agree. MNF would never have the balls to do it either which is a shame.
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They’d rather use that 30 second time slot to sell you Chevy’s latest piece of shit car.
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ARE YOU DRIVING A CHEVY YET YOU PUSSY? NO? WELL THIS GUY DRIVES A CHEVY AND HE JUST FUCKED YOUR WIFE. WHAT AR YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
DRIVE A CHEVY OR ELSE
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
That’s the amazing thing about the CBC. They could cut Cherry’s segment short and roll three ads on their highest rated program but they don’t.
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One thing I fear about this is once Cherry stops doing Coach’s Corner, this tradition will end (should Canada still be engaged in war at the time). I only think the CBC is doing this because they are bending to Cherry’s sheer force of personality and will. Once he’s gone, I highly doubt the execs at CBC will have the guts to continue commemorating the troops.
I hope they prove me wrong.
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Don’t hold your breath.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
Question is
Will Cherry’s eventual replacement have the guts to even salute our troops?
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
The end of Don Cherry will be a dark day.
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The sports broadcasting world needs more crazy.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Would they allow any of us to go near
a sports broadcasting thing?
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
And if not an ad for Chevy or Bud, they’ll just give Charlie Daniels more airtime which is even more confusing.
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by Yankee Canuck on Nov 11, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed on both points. Stellar post Chemmy.
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by Scotty Hockey on Nov 11, 2009 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
I know it's not exactly a sport...
but the WWE does this thing where they broadcast one of their shows in Afghanistan each and every year, and do many things to honour the troops.
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Yup, they did an Afghanistan and Iraq tour this summer. Of all the sports / sports entertainment businesses and leagues, they by far do it the best.
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Agreed.
I also liked what The Colbert Report did this past Summer (I know it’s not even sports), broadcasting from Iraq.
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed, Colbert did a great job.
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by Yankee Canuck on Nov 11, 2009 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
Poppy Question
In the matter of respect, do you stop wearing it after 11am or after the day has finished?
At the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, after the official ceremony, it has become custom for the public to walk past and place their poppies atop the tomb.
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Speaking of school
We had the moment of silence, and yet there were some people fidgeting about.
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
I can’t stand Don Cherry and his logorrhea, but I totally respect that he honours Canadian soldiers. It may be the only cogent part of his segement.
There’s a fascinating cultural bifurcation happening with the US and Canada. If you told me that a country had renamed it’s major highway system in honour of fallen soldiers, that the public were showing up en masse on overpasses and taking their hats off in respect as the remains of these soldier were transported past, and that the names of the fallen would be read aloud during one of the most watched tv broadcasts each week I never would have guessed you were talking about Canada.
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/why-is-nov-11th-blooming/article1358891/
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Thanks for that link…I visited Vimy Ridge in 2001 and it was one of those goosebump moments. Something I’ll never forget.
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Beaumont Hamel is another Canadian memorial worth visiting in France and another tragic WWI story.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Did you watch the story on The Black Watch last night on History? It’s stuff like that that makes me shake my head on how some people can rise so high in the military while lacking a critical thing known as common sense.
Longer Quotation
‘The English Generals are wanting in strategy. We should have no chance if they possessed as much science as their officers and men had of courage and bravery. They are lions led by donkeys.’
I did a massive project in high school on WWI and that point was hammered home repeatedly. Too often the brave fighting men and women are lost for no reason other than the incompetence of their leaders.
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Exactly
The reason why Vimy Ridge was so successful was becuase Byng and Currie spent countless hours strategising and when it came to giving orders each platoon was given their orders. This helped prevent the chain of command of orders from being broken because every soldier knew what he had to do and what is objective was. If his superior officer is killed, a soldier still knew what his job was that day.
And that is how one of the few advances after the stalemate happened.
The problem with that view of World War 1 is that it’s rubbish.
Mistakes were made, yes. Outright blunders were made, often costing thousands of lives. But the idea that tactics, strategy and technology remained stagnant is ludicrous. The battles of The Hundred Days in 1918 are the greatest victories the British Army has ever won.
If the British generals were really that bad, how did we win? No, they were not perfect, but it is unlikely anyone could have performed better in the constantly mutating circumstances of The Western Front.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
by article1 on Nov 11, 2009 12:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
True
Hindsight is 20/20.
Eventually people were put in place that were equipped to succeed and all sides dealt with having outmoded training but there were a number of absolutely horrific blunders as well.
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The first day.
The Battle as a whole was strategically successful and a necessary precurser to the battles of 1918.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
Read "The Face of Battle" By John Keegan
If you want to get the soldiers’ perspective of that debacle.
Yeah!!!
Cormack is the man! He’s written so many letters of reference for me… have you taken or are you taking his 4th year course on the French Revolution?
Nope, I’m in my last semester in what was supposed to be a 3 year degree haha.
You taking anything right now?
It’s not really hindsight. It’s the view people held in the 1920s. It was only later that the idea took hold that The Great War was a terrible waste and sacrifice of good men by incompetant generals.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
Agreed, Beaumont Hamel was one of the first sites I visited when I went over. Those craters are enormous even after decades of erosion.
The most humbling site for me was the Abbaye d’Ardennes. Mostly because myself and a group of other young Canadians had the honour of laying wreaths for the executed soldiers on the anniversary of the liberation of Caen. Not ashamed to say I was seriously choked up.
the main reason I want to go to Europe is to visit all the major battle sites I can and pay my respects.
I have no doubt I will get choked up
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
1 WWI vet left. 91 years since hostilities ended on the Western front.
Black Dog Hates Skunks has a good post up today.
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Senior Royal Canadian Legion official Robert Butt said:
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His last name is Butt and I can’t pass up something that easy.
Carry on.
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The Canada/US culture divide was never more evident than last night. Quiet remembrance through reflection, and the reading of a poem. Drives home the magnitude of what those men standing on the ice did. In the U.S. it would have been a 21 gun salute while Whitney Huston sang The Star Spangled Banner as played by U2.
He Score, He Shoot! Number To Be Retired After Illustrious Career
If by Whitney Houston you mean Toby Keith, who would then go into a melody of all the hits off “Shock’n Y’all,” then pretty much.
Look at the anthems from the last winter classic for comparison.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Decided to change the avvy for the occasion
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it has been a song
I did it in high school. I forget the arranger, but it was pretty goosebumps-inducing
THIS IS A JOKE
Geez TSN
You’d think that they would double-check:
Soldiers, veterans and members of the public are gathering across the country and around the world to pay their respects at the 11th minute of the 11th hour of the 11th day of November - to pay tribute to the 1.5 million Canadians who have served their country since the start of the First World War. And like all walks of life, the world of sports is never above or beyond the honour that is bestowed upon Canada’s fallen heroes.
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I’m sorry, but I hate it. To me it’s just an extension of Cherry’s self-promotion and wrapping-himself-in-the-flag patriotism. You can call me uncharitable, but I hate being manipulated, especially by a bully like Cherry. And it’s not like he hides his politics. When we’re not at war, he still loves to thump the drums over how pro-soldier he is, and he certainly isn’t shy about being pro-war.
The segments may be tasteful, they may not even be hypocritical; I don’t know, I refuse to watch.
I've been looking at the sky
No need to be sorry for having a valid opinion.
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Why apologise?
You’re not the only one that feels that way.
Today’s about celebrating that we are able to have these debates because of what those soldiers sacrificed.
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by PPP on Nov 11, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes. No need to apologize, actually
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Thanks, guys
I put the sorry in there because I hate sounding like I don’t care about the sacrifices our soldiers are making. Even more because I’ve become personally convinced that they are sacrificing in vain, I also agree that it’s really important that we all take notice when our soldiers are killed.
But I can’t stand Cherry dressing himself up as Captain Canada so that everyone can see, especially when combined with his never-ending Us vs. Them xenophobia.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Nov 11, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
Even more because I’ve become personally convinced that they are sacrificing in vain
I agree with that as well. Highlighting the loss of Canadian life juxtaposed with the corrupt Afghan government, the lack of progress, the lack of will on the part of the Afghanis, and the return of the Taliban all help move this mission closer to a conclusion.
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I think the soldiers dying in vain for this mission is why we need a Captain Canada like Don Cherry.
agreed. I like that Cherry is taking the stand on this, especially since no one else is
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I like
that regardless the political climate or time of year, Cherry does this.
This isn’t a Remembrance Day only thing. He’s been doing it for as long as I can remember. The fact that it forces people to question the reasoning for a war is good and healthy, and I’d venture to guess even Don Cherry would agree. whether or not one comes to the same conclusion as Don Cherry on the war’s validity is not the point. the deaths of soldiers in service of their country is.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
…I think Cherry is sincere, and that’s fine. Good for him, even. But coming from him, I mostly see it as a tacit endorsement of the war, and of militarism in general, even if that’s not the intent, and that makes it hard for me to watch because I feel manipulated and deceived. I don’t remember exactly, but I think Cherry’s made some pretty harsh comments in the past about people who think we shouldn’t be in Afghanistan, and while pictures of dead soldiers might make many question whether it’s worth the loss of life, for others who endorse the war without really trying to understand it, it’s just sentimental porn for the heartstrings.
I don’t know that Don Cherry is intelligent enough to politicize something like this.
The point I’m trying to make is that, if by him showing you pictures of fallen soldiers, you feel ANYTHING (anger, grief, sadness, incredulity etc.) then he has done his job.
I dislike using the words “emotionally manipulated” in regards to his showing of fallen soldiers, because the point of it is for you to feel something…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Cherry was absolutely a massive supporter of Canada going into Iraq and he was incandescent with rage when Canada didn’t.
Even though it was ultimately proven to be the right point he hasn’t backed down.
But I don’t know that showing the human side of the mission does too much to raise support. I guess he could be trying to get people to say “we have to see it through now” but most think “Jesus, what a waste”
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pain is better than indifference.
Most people totally forget that Canada is even fighting a war, and THAT is the disgusting thing.
The point isnt that he is glorifying the war, it is that he is forcing people to remember that it is going on.
We should never forget that, even if the war is wrong
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
Agree. The only people that feel it are the military and their families. There are no sacrifices here as there were during WWI and WWII
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Especially if the war is wrong, even. Though a “just” war shouldn’t go unnoticed either.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
The problem with Iraq was that before the war it seemed pretty obvious that Iraq didn’t have WMD, so Cherry being a massive supporter of Canada going into Iraq really makes him a massive supporter of Canadian soldiers getting blown to bits for no reason.
Not sure I agree. The reporting at the time definitely made it seem like it was a ‘slam-dunk’ argument and Canaada was under intense pressure to go along with our massive allies to the South.
I think saying that it was clear that the basis for Iraq was a lie at the time is a bit revisionist.
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also
Saddam needed to go.
Was it done in the right way? No. But it needed to be done.
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Why then though? After a decade of containment?
Actually, let’s not go down this path.
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nope, it doesnt. and since this could spark off a very touche debate I will end my cometary on this topic with this.
If the US didnt do it, no one ever would until a crime of such epic and costly proportions that it could not be ignored was perpetrated by Saddam and his forces
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
That’s the whole thing. Now I’m about to say something but remember, we didn’t know about the Holocaust until after the Allies made in-roads into Europe:
I can’t help but think that if the media in 1939/1940 was like today’s media then Hitler would have been able to suceed. People would have been calling for the end of the war half-way through the Battle of Britain.
Though, the whole Japan attacking Pearl Harbour thing would have kept the war going, and Britain would have probably fight for their country.
Alright, I’ll be back after debating with myself on the way to class over this.
revisionist indeed
WW2 was never about saving Jews from gas chambers. It was about ending expansionist powers in Japan, Germany and Italy.
Now it’s about liberation, and ending Germany’s murderous rampage and genocide.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 11, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree; the “evidence” provided to justify the war was pathetic, virtually non-existent, and I think this was obvious. Nobody I knew thought there was a snowball’s chance in hell that they would find a single goddamn thing, and this sentiment was the same for millions all over the world, which was why there were such massive demonstrations. Like Colin Powell’s address to the UN; “this is a truck. A WMD truck!”
The US found chemical weapons in Iraq.
No follow up questions. Gotta go.
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From what I understand, the US found expired chemical weapons already accounted for by inspectors; ie. stores of chemical weapons no longer useful, and that the US had helped Saddam make in the first place.
Actually we sold them the chemical weapons, we didn’t help them make them.
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Donnie seemed like such a nice boy.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
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by puckurgently on Nov 11, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Having said that
I disagree on this point.
Yes, Don Cherry is known as being a massive supporter of the armed services so it’s no surprise that he does something like this. If he did it randomly I’d be more likely to agree with self-promotion.
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It’s as much self-promotion as anything else he does that’s part of the Don Cherry character, like loud suits, his dog, and whining about floaty euros.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Did you see his suit on Saturday night? He kept it 100% pure class and barely said anything before the memorial because he knew he was going to break down crying.
It’s not self-promotion like riding the tank in Kingston was. When Cherry does the memorial thing, he is doing it purely to remember the fallen soldiers. There isn’t a split screen with his face or anything. It’s just pictures of soldiers with music and sometimes his voice telling his audience about those who died.
I’ve seen the segment, I saw the suit, I like the segment, Don Cherry can do class when he wants and he does it well.
That doesn’t change that when I think of Don Cherry, I think of the military along with all those other things that make him what he is.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I couldn’t find last night’s version but here is another version of Scott Newlands national anthem. He gives me chills everytime he sings.
Every time I hear The Maple Leaf forever I am filled with a huge, overwhelming sense of Canadian patriotism. Here’s a little history on the song:
“The Maple Leaf Forever” is a Canadian song written by Alexander Muir in 1867, the year of Canada’s Confederation. Muir was said to have been inspired to write this song by a large maple tree which stood on his property: Maple Cottage, a house at Memory Lane and Laing Street in Toronto. The song became quite popular in English Canada and for many years served as an unofficial national anthem. Because of its strongly British perspective it became unpopular amongst French Canadians, and this prevented it from ever becoming an official anthem, even though it was seriously considered for that role and was even used as a de facto anthem in many instances.
Written the same year as Confederation, in Toronto, inspired by a maple tree… yeah, it doesn’t get much better than that!
-Graham-
by CanadianMaple09 on Nov 11, 2009 12:53 PM EST reply actions
It’s been political correctified over the years – like everything else.
“….with thistle, shamrock, rose and twine” was replaced with “….with lily, thistle, rose & twine”.
Accomodate one group – make another slide down the bench. Even with the change – still offends – kicked it to the curb. (right beside God Save the Queen, the Canadian Ensign flag, Land of Hope and Glory, and on and on)
What a bunch of pussies we are.
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completely. There is such a thing as the “Canadian identity.” Canada’s writers and intellectuals have struggled since before Confederation to define what it means to be Canadian. In my opinion, if you strip away all of the political correctness that is a more recent phenomenon, you will find that true Canadian identity. And yes, “NOT AMERICAN” is a big part of that. Really the starting point I guess. But it’s more than that.
-Graham-
by CanadianMaple09 on Nov 11, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Alright all, I have to go to class. Be back around 4ish. Hope to have some more discussions on past wars and what not when I get back.
Peace out.
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by Marc Pilgrim on Nov 11, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Completely agree.
I find it very disrespectful that here in America we can’t take 15 minutes before a game to honor the men and women who have sacrificed so much for their country – I have never been to nor seen a pre-game ceremony that carries the emotional power of the one that Toronto does every year, or that the teams on HNIC put together. The most our vets here get are some free tickets in the upper bowl and maybe a coupon for a free hot dog and Coke.
The class that the NHL, along with the CBC, TSN, Rogers SportsNet, and RDS show towards vets is fantastic – the only American sports league I can think of that does anything of the same sort is MLB with their commemorative hats on Memorial Day, the 4th of July, and September 11th. The NBA and NFL can’t do something as simple as the NHL coaches are doing with the poppies on their lapels, and I find that sad.
Reporter: There`s a "stamp out the Beatles movement" underway in Detroit. What are you going to do about it?
Paul McCartney: We`re going to start a campaign to stamp out Detroit.
British tradition I suspect. English soccer and rugby does a great job in all games leading up to Remembrance day ( prefer their poppy pins to ours by the way)
by wendel over mats on Nov 11, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
I really dislike this portion of HNIC. It has nothing to do with hockey, and despite what you are saying, it is showing Cherry’s agenda. He doesn’t simply say “these people died.” He always refers to the soldiers as the greatest young Canadians, the real heroes, the good guys, etc. etc. etc. I don’t see how that is not political.
I agree that it’s good that Canadians realize how many people are dying in this stupid war, but the problem is that Cherry never suggests that there’s a problem that we’re sending these kids off to die. He never suggests that there’s a way — outside of continuing our stay in Afghanistan — to cease the bloodshed. And I find that extremely troubling.
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He always refers to the soldiers as the greatest young Canadians, the real heroes, the good guys, etc. etc. etc. I don’t see how that is not political.
“These idiots died because they’re not as smart as soldiers who are still alive, CA-NA-DA!”
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Hahaha, well, he just uses a blanket statement about all kids going off to war for all the right reasons, and that they’re all just amazing human beings.
The people I’ve known who have gone off to Afghanistan — and I am not going to say that they’re representative of the majority of soldiers, I’m just saying the ones I’ve seen — are not heroes. They’re not bad people, either. They’re kids who like the glorified version of war they’ve seen in movies and have nothing else to do with their lives right now. They need work, so they join the military.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
And despite the fact that this war in most of our eyes is unnecessary those kids with nothing else to do with their lives die to keep you safe.
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They do not die to keep me safe. Come on, what is happening in Afghanistan is not protecting me. The war is unnecessary in most eyes, but not in all. Some people believe that what they are doing is protecting every other Canadian, but it doesn’t mean it is.
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You’re missing the point because of your political views. I must have written in the comments and this article 50 times that this war is unnecessary in my eyes.
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I think that canada and the US realize that they should not be there now, but to pull out now and leave the country in total chaos (even more than it is now) isnt a good idea either. they are pretty much stuck there until a long term solution can be realized
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 11, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
You need to read the last 100 years or history of Afghanistan if you think having foreign troops of any kind there is a solution for anything. If fact, they provide more moral fuel for the Taliban than anything else. Unless the people of Afghan decide they don’t want to be a theocratic corrupt country, there’s little to nothing we can do to change things. Maybe if they were given a few generations to decide their own fate they would choose a form of government that puts an end to being ruled by fundamentalists and warlords.
I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.
Exactly
Look how long it’s taken Iran to even get to the very fringes of an overthrow of their government.
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I know you’ve mentioned that. But you said that these kids are dying to keep me safe, which I disagree with.
Thinking that they’re dying to keep me safe and dying to keep me safe are very, very different things.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
They would die to keep you safe if that’s what their mission was. That’s what you’re missing.
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I realize that. And that’s extremely noble, but it’s hard to support something that I believe is misguided.
As an example: I am a vegan. I support the basis of PeTA’s message – that of animal rights. However, I do not like at all PeTA’s methods, and would never support PeTA.
I like the idea that people want to work for fundamental freedoms, and are willing to risk their lives for others. However, when it’s done in a way that involves killing thousands of innocent people, I disagree with the method, and therefore do not support the military.
It doesn’t mean that a soldier’s death isn’t tragic, it doesn’t mean that their belief isn’t noble. But just the fact that someone has good intentions does not mean that I need to support their way of achieving their goals.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
If troops were dying somewhere to protect you from something you viewed as a direct threat would they be heroes?
They’re dying in Afghanistan and because they’re grunts on the battlefront nobody ever asked their opinion of what they were sent off to do. If you’ve got beef with their job tell your politicians who should tell their generals.
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Afghanistan was run by an insane religious group that was harbouring and funding a terrorist group that struck American targets repeatedly and has since attempted to attack Canada.
Soldiers in Afghanistan were dying to keep you safe. Now I don’t think that they are because the mission has devolved into keeping a puppet regime in power.
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Also, congratulations to every fuck up, layabout, screw up, etc. who joins the Army. It’s hard work and they want to better their lives.
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Yeah
They aren’t exactly signing up for a vacation
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anyone who willingly does a job that puts them in harms way for the purpose of bettering the lives of others is a hero. Military, Police, Firefighters, Paramedics etc.
Why they do it is pretty much irrelevant (unless they are a sicko who signs up because they want to kill, maim see pain whatever)
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
There’s a distinction between military and the others. Paramedics, etc, do not kill other people. That’s a huge, huge difference.
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Police sometimes shoot people. Doctors fuck up surgeries and kill people. I’m sure more than one ambulance driver has crashed or taken a wrong turn that’s resulted in death.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
intent is completely different in those scenarios, though.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
the intent is to save lives, and it is the same all over. The methods are different for sure. But the soldiers arnt going over there with the intent to kill someone just because, they are going over to kill a group that is killing innocents
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
If someone were trying to kill them I bet they would.
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there’s a reason people are trying to kill soldiers – because soldiers are trying to kill their countrymen. it’s a vicious cycle.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
I don’t think it’s radical to say that the first part of the Afghan mission was indeed for the right reasons.
They may be out of work but there’s lots of other choices besides signing up to get shot at in an attempt to improve the lives of others.
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Fair enough. I respect your opinion, I wanted to voice mine, but I can’t keep up with the litany of responses and we’re just going to tire ourselves out with our opposing beliefs. I don’t think they’re going to be resolved any time soon, and I’m tired of some responses completely distorting what I have said.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
What’s been distorted?
Your dismissal of what it means to join the military?
The people I’ve known who have gone off to Afghanistan — and I am not going to say that they’re representative of the majority of soldiers, I’m just saying the ones I’ve seen — are not heroes. They’re not bad people, either. They’re kids who like the glorified version of war they’ve seen in movies and have nothing else to do with their lives right now. They need work, so they join the military.
Or that, at least in this case, the people that are shooting back are the people that actually deserve to be shot at
there’s a reason people are trying to kill soldiers – because soldiers are trying to kill their countrymen. it’s a vicious cycle.
Your belief that the entire mission in Afghanistan has been a waste?
Come on, what is happening in Afghanistan is not protecting me.
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yeah, that sounds about right about whats being distorted. I’m sending you an email to clarify my perspective, but:
quote A says people I’ve known who join the military. I explicitly stated I was not defining every soldier or the majority of soldiers.
quote B is not saying “the enemy is actually in the right!” or anything like that. I don’t believe either side is justified in what they are doing, and neither side deserves to be shot at.
quote C does not refer to the entire mission in Afghanistan. Happening, not happened. I am not commenting on the entire mission.
Silver Seven: the Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators blogs.
What a ridiculous bastardization of an argument
Whether or not I agree with anything Darren has said, you’ve completely (and seemingly intentionally) misinterpreted every single point he’s made so far.
by Peter Raaymakers on Nov 13, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Nope
He’s just presented it terribly. It happens.
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Cherry never suggests that there’s a problem that we’re sending these kids off to die. He never suggests that there’s a way — outside of continuing our stay in Afghanistan — to cease the bloodshed. And I find that extremely troubling.
Exactly. He never brings up either side. He just notes that these are people that voluntarily signed up for the armed services and did their jobs and tragically died. The message you take from it is entirely up to you.
I don’t see how it’s political to call people that die serving in the armed services as good people. Should we spit on them like people did to Vietnam vets?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
weather you agree with the reasons behind the war is irrelevent here, the whole point cherry is making is support the troops. These are canadian men and women who are fighting in the name of canada and they deserve to be recognized for their sacrifice.
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by Matt_Roberts on Nov 11, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
indeed. Soldiers will fight harder to come home if they think they have a home to come back to. Even then, when they do come back, if they are hurt, either physically or mentally, the support of the country is HUGE to their recovery and integration back into society
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
One father’s tribute to his fallen son.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
That link ended up at Gmail for me.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
same
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Let's try again
One father’s tribute to his fallen son
Did that one work?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
its amazing for sure
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
That’s an awesome tribute. Well-done custom paint job.
Side note: “Lest we forget” is cooler wording than “Never forget”
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Nov 11, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
thats awesome
wonder how much the guy spent on it…its beautiful. definitely will be keeping my eyes peeled now.
by leafsfan4life94 on Nov 12, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
awesome picture
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 11, 2009 4:25 PM EST reply actions
I think this will always be a touchy subject, and anything where war and politics are regarded and will be long after we’ve typed some comments on the internet. I think that if we look at the core message that remembering the men and women who’ve made the choice to stand in harm’s way (whether we agree or not, means nothing to the dead and their families). Kudos to Cherry and ultimately HNIC for using the biggest outlet to Canadian tv viewers to show the cost of such choices. Remember the Dead, they sacrifice so you don’t have to.
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by blindfolded tank driver on Nov 11, 2009 9:38 PM EST reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Good post, but...
“Canadian occupation of Afghanistan”? Really?
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
What’s your objection? Canadian or occupation? Canada was in charge of the mission until recently I think. And it’s definitely an occupation now.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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