Anybody Else Tired of the "Respect" Argument?
by Belligerent Burkie on Nov 3, 2009 10:35 AM EST
29 comments
I just finished reading Adam Proteau's new article on players speaking out against head shots. It's a usual article for someone of his ilk; but I saw a quote from Keith Primeau, one that many people have said time and time again, and it got me thinking, is it really true that players today have less respect for each other than they did in previous generations?
I'm going to start off with a little disclaimer: I don't buy the argument that "players today have less respect for each other than they did in previous generations." I'm also making an assumption here: that disrespect in hockey can easily be personified by acts of violence that have nothing to do with or have no place in the game (so stick swinging, hitting from behind, etc...). That said, let's take a look at history.
Everyone is celebrating the introduction of the goalie mask by Plante 50 years ago. Anybody know why he put the mask on? Because Andy Bathgate had just shot a puck at his face, intentionally. This was in retaliation to Plante tripping Bathgate intentionally a few weeks earlier that sent him crashing into the end boards. Bathgate & Plante did a segment for TSN last weekend, where they recalled the events leading up to Plante donning the mask. Shooting a puck at a guy's face intentionally displays at least a noticeable degree of disrespect and disregard for that person's well being, no? While Bathgate said to Plante that it wasn't personal he still had the disregard to shoot at his face, which could have had worse consequences then giving Plante a broken nose and cementing their place in hockey history.
But wait, there's more: click here to see CBCs top-10 "lowlights". Below are some of the more memorable ones.
March 13, 1955, Rocket Richard is given a match penalty for tomahawking Hal Laycoe over the head with his stick and suspended for the rest of the season. That's disrespect and disregard for human life, no?
Wayne Maki vs. Ted Greene: In the midst of a pre-season game, (a freaking preseason game!) Maki knocked Green down from behind. The latter retaliated by slashing Maki, who hit the ice. Maki speared Green, who again sent Maki flying. The pair soon exchanged vicious slashes until Maki clubbed Green over the head, fracturing his skull. Green needed three major operations to save his life and had a steel plate inserted in his head. That was at the end of the 60's. Clearly no respect, right? Again, that was a pre-season game.
Nov. 5, 1975, Don Maloney tomahawks Brian Glennie, completely knocking him out cold. Clearly Maloney had a tremendous amount of respect for Glennie, and showed him how much he respected him by whacking him over the head with his stick.
Also, please check out this list of violent and illegal moments from Wikipedia. I know it's Wikipedia, so there's a better than average chance that somebody's tampered with it, but one of the things is from a reliable source; Hockey: A People's History, where they state that in 1904, 4 players were killed from brawls and stick work.
Now, regardless of your stance on head shots, fighting, etc... I think it's farily clear that you cannot argue that the players today have less respect for each other than they did 30+ years ago. The level of respect between players isn't much higher or lower now than at any point in history. The only possible argument for a lack of respect now as opposed to the past would be if your definition of "now" was anytime between the year 2009 and 1900; in which case please read a dictionary; for the love of God, read a dictionary.
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The reason I posted this here, is because it felt out of place on THN. It isn’t really an argument for or against Proteau’s over-arching point, and is too long to be written as one paragraph – as all comments are on THN, for some dumb reason.
by Belligerent Burkie on Nov 2, 2009 8:32 PM EST reply actions
This is a good post. I’ll probably front page it later.
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If I don’t, this is what happens when your overlords are lazy sacks of crap. Sorry in advance.
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I have related this story before on here, and I believe it is applicable so I will tell it again.
I have played over 24 seasons of inline hockey and ice hockey combined, starting when I was about 6 years old and continuing today. In that entire period I have only taken two penalties. One was a tripping call and was entirely deserved. The other was a hit from behind for which I received a game misconduct. My intention was not to hit from behind, the guy (who happened to be a close friend) turned at the last moment and I couldn’t avoid it. There is no way I would have intentionally driven him into the boards, not him or any other player.
To me it is apparent that penalties do not have to be as prevalent as they are. Not to say that every player could go an entire season without taking a penalty, but I think the amount of penalties that are taken are is needless. I accept the fact that you will get accidental high sticks and tripping calls on breakaways when the defenceman does everything possible to prevent the breakaway, but I think most penalties could be avoided. Slashing, cross checking, elbowing, interference, these are all things that take a conscious choice from the player to commit. I’m sure there are more but those are just the ones I think of off the top of my head. These penalties are not things you accidentally do, so they are preventable. With that being said, I think that the respect level shown by hockey players has always been below that abstract desired level that I would call “decency”, and I don’t see it changing any time soon.
-Graham-
I think it really relates to the level of competition, and a win at all costs mentality that gets you to play on the edge of the rules. There are several classes of this:
Elbowing, holding: this is usually playing the odds of how often you get caught. If you get away with it, it helps beat the other team.
Interference, charging, slashing: these are often borderline calls. The more physical you are, the better it is for your team, so players play on the edge of committing these fouls. Sometimes they cross the line, and it’s not intentional, but if they weren’t trying to get as close to the line as possible they wouldn’t call it.
Tripping: this is often simply a conscious tradeoff between a penalty and a scoring chance. Or an accident. If you’ve never been given a penalty for accidentally tripping a player, maybe your stick isn’t ‘active’ enough.
I don’t get many penalties either – most of mine are by accident – but I’ve never played in a hyper-competitive league. I’ve never had an incentive (or desire) to be as physically dangerous as possible.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Nov 3, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completely about the level of competition and the lack of a “win at all costs” mentality difference between the NHL and the leagues I have played in.
In terms of the mentality, I never try to “play the odds” and see how much I can get away with without being caught. My mentality is “if you never do it, you never get caught doing it.” I think this has worked very well in my favour. Contrary to making the team less competitive, I think it helps the team quite a bit. I won’t even hazard a guess as to how many penalties I’ve drawn, but I know that it is many times greater than the number that I have taken. The cost is that I allow the other team some scoring chances, but the benefit is that I never put the team shorthanded and instead put us on the powerplay more often.
-Graham-
by CanadianMaple09 on Nov 3, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
I forgot to mention Kaberle. He hardly takes any penalties, yet no one would say that he is less competitive than most of the other defencemen in the league. I think it was yesterday Ron Wilson said in an interview that he is really pleased with Kaberle’s defensive play, perhaps as much as his offensive output so far. I think it proves that you can take a no-penalty mentality and still be competitive.
-Graham-
by CanadianMaple09 on Nov 3, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think it’s so much a question of whether players respect each other or the rules in general. Some do, some don’t, it’s always been that way, and probably always will. The question is, from where I’m sitting, more about how the disrespect manifests itself in a game situation.
Helmets, for example, are often credited with having diminished players’ respect for the head. Someone who goes for the head to begin with is probably not overly concerned with his opponent’s safety, but there is some truth to the argument that it’s easier for a guy to justify a headshot to himself if he believes the recipient is likely to be protected from the worst possible outcomes. I still think their protection against accidental things makes helmets worthwhile on balance, but I don’t take much issue with the suggestion that someone who’s going to take a dirty shot has less of a deterrent with a helmeted opponent.
I think a headshot penalty would probably be the same. It’s not going to stop a Bertuzzi, and isn’t intended to. It might encourage a bit more discipline in someone who’s careless about his hits, which is probably worth doing. That’s still a respect issue, even if it doesn’t solve every douchey tendency of people who have been constantly fawned over since they were teenagers.
Leafs Rumination: hockey and sesquipedalianism.
Agreed – I think the equipment has players feeling so invincible out there that they don’t think twice. The new shoulder pads also cause a lot more damage than the old ones did.
You watch old footage or read old accounts, though – players have always been really nasty to each other. It comes out of the competitive drive.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
indeed
this is one thing I think Cherry’s got right – the hard, plastic equipment is partly to blame for the brutality we see, along with bigger, faster players.
But yes, after having watched Hockey – A People’s History, it’s hard to say players have less respect now than ever before. There’s been a lot of shockingly violent things done during the course of a hockey game.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
Another lowlight:
1933 – After being checked by King Clancy, Eddie Shore retaliates by hitting Ace Bailey from behind fracturing his skull.
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Thereby giving us the all-star game.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
That bastard.
Leafs Rumination: hockey and sesquipedalianism.
by puckurgently on Nov 3, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
There are a million of them. Shore/Bailey was everything that Bertuzzi/Moore was.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Thus lending obvious weight to the “players have always been dicks to each other” argument.
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Go Flyers!
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by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Nov 4, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Maurice Richard assaulted officials and put sticks to the heads of other players on multiple occasions. The NHL has a trophy named after him.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Clearly an anti-French conspiracy
Clarence Campbell just suspended him because he was French and not because he tomahawked a dude in the head.
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Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
Another thing to consider: the media.
The 24-7 news cycle, the pervasiveness of sports talk on blogs, TV and the radio, the ability to find anything and everything about the game on the internet: all of this create so much more publicity and awareness surrounding today’s acts of disrespect.
In the past, there doubtless were more such incidents, but because they happened with little or no media around, relatively few people witnessed the incidents in question.
This gives the appearance that things are worse today than ever before, when in reality it is probably not much different than what it ever was.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, still. Now truculently rebranded!
A little food for thought
In the six-team league, an entire season consisted of 210 games.
Nowadays, it’s over 1200. Even if incidents happen at the same rate, you’d expect to see six times as many as you used to, simply because there are six times as many opportunities for them to happen.
Even in the mayhem-strewn 70s, a season was only 720 games (18 teams playing an 80-game sched).
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Yeah those are interesting points and certainly true.
It does certainly seem though that when something happens you hear more about it more quickly and with more outrage than in the past. Still think that’s the media impact at work.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, still. Now truculently rebranded!
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