Your Toronto Maple Leafs: How Did We Get Here?
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 11:32 AM EST
257 comments
An anonymous comment over at my blog Bitter Leaf Fan raised the question of how exactly the Leafs arrived in their current mess.
There’s not a single cause or easy explantion.
This franchise has gone through three, maybe even four, different phases since 2000, however; with the exception of one small window, all of these phases have focused on the short-term, sacrificing picks and prospects for a supposed fix.
After the jump, a look at the Leafs' propensity to deal away the future and the pile of pocket lint, loose change and used gum wrappers they got in return.
Pre-Lockout
The Pat Quinn teams of the early 2000s were powerful clubs. Each made the playoffs and several flirted with 100 point seasons. They combined a nice mix of talent and flair (Sundin, Mogilny) with grit (Roberts, Tucker) and solid goaltending (Cujo, Belfour).
These teams were often legitimate threats to go deep in the post season and on more than one occasion it was widely thought they could challenge for a cup. As a result, these teams made a number of trades where the future was sacrificed for the present. There was a small window of success and the Leafs went for it, selling off the future in the hopes of a big pay-day.
In 2003, the Leafs trade Brad Boyes (2000 1st round pick), Alyn McCauley and a 1st round pick for Owen Nolan
In 2004, the Leafs trade two prospects, a 1st and 2nd round pick for Brian Leetch.
In addition to dealing away those three first round picks, the Leafs also had some bad luck when their 1999 first round selection (and WJC 1st team all-star) Luca Cereda had to hang up his skates due to health complications with his heart.
From 1999 to 2004, the Leafs emerged with just two first round draft picks: Carlo Colaiacovo and Alexander Steen. Both would later be traded to St. Louis for Lee Stempniak.
The Missing Years
John Ferguson Junior’s tenure was like a ship lost at sea…or maybe it was a ship that kept running into ice bergs…or a lost ship, on fire, that kept hitting ice bergs. Choose your own nautical disaster metaphor and, in keeping with JFJ’s reign of error, the more apocalyptic and dire your selection the more accurate it will be.
Ferguson was GM from the 2004 to 2007 drafts.
Out of those five drafts, he managed to hold on to his first round pick in just once – giving the franchise Jiri Tlusty and a whole lotta NSFW jokes.
Unable to shake-off the "win now!" edict from the MLSE board, in just two years Ferguson sacrificed two first, a second and a fourth round pick in an effort to shore-up the team’s goaltending. Some four years later, goaltending remains a position of weakness that hasn’t been adequately addressed.
JFJ's draft day magic:
- The 2005 first round pick (Tukka Rask) dealt for Andrew Raycroft.
- The 2006 first round pick was Jiri Tlusty.
- The 2007 first round and second round picks (along with a 2009 4th) to San Jose for Vesa Toskala.
- The 2008 second round pick to Phoenix for Yannic Perreault.
Draft Schmaft Redux?
In 2008, Cliff Fletcher was brought in to try to move out the NTCs/NMCs on the club and start the, ahem, rebuilding process.
Given the need to get more talent into the system, he made some, shall we say, curious moves:
- A swap of first round picks, 2008 3rd round pick, 2009 2nd round pick for Luke Schenn
- 2008 3rd round pick for Jamal Mayers
- 2008 4th round pick to get rid of Bryan McCabe
- 2008 5th round pick for Ryan Hollwegg
- 2010 2nd round pick for Mikhail Grabovski
In fairness to Fletcher, he also acquired a small parcel of picks:
- 2008 2nd round pick and a 2009 5th round pick for Hal Gill
- 2008 3rd round pick for Chad Kilger
- 2008 5th round pick for Wade Belak
An Eye for Talent? Um. Not really...
If you’re going to trade away picks and prospects, the returning players better pan out.
Clearly that has not been the case for the Leafs.
By my math, the Leafs traded five first round and three second round picks for the following return:
- 69 games from Owen Nolan.
- 28 games of Brian Leetch.
- 91 games (and 268 goals against) of Andrew Raycroft (plus a multi-year buyout)
- 17 games of Yanic Perreault
- 127 games (and counting) from Vesa Toskala
Stop and marvel at that return.
Five first and three third round picks for 332 games played (plus Toskala's starts until the end of the season).
I'll spare the Leaf defenders from doing the math - Brad Boyes, one of the former first rounders traded away, has played 347 NHL games, 15 more than this motley collection managed for the Leafs.
What's worse is that every single one of these players left the Leafs without a single asset coming back in return.
I'll wait while you drink it all in.
I don’t know about you, but I don't think there’s an adjective that can adequately summarize this. One could argue that only Bernie Madoff has done a worse job of asset management - and even that might be a stretch.
Making Mistakes Beyond the Draft
Even more painfully, that poor return only reflects the draft side of the equation.
The Leafs have not excelled in the free agency department (Blake, Finger), have made poor decisions in awarding NMCs and NTCs, and have made a series of poor decisions on talent retention – signing McCabe, Tucker and others to long-term deals rather than trading them at peak value. But I’ll save that rant/analysis for another day…
For now, in a nutshell, this is a good first step toward building a franchise that’s on target for a 50 point season and has limited options at hand.
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Depressing
In my mind, I’ve rationalized both the Nolan and Leetch trades. The Leafs were “close” at that point. And those guys were impact players. I’ll never forget Nolan’s first game with the Leafs, when he scored twice, I believe. Even Leetch. A defence core of Leetch, McCabe and Kaberle gave me a serious boner.
“And counting” from Toskala makes my heart hurt.
No draft picks should ever have been traded to acquire the likes of Perreault, Mayers, and Hollweg. That is completely unacceptable.
It all seems like a bad dream. A very, very bad dream.
A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...
by eyebleaf on Nov 20, 2009 11:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
There were some extenuating circumstances. Nolan’s knee, the lockout costing us the second season of Leetch.
The rest? Not so much.
The one thing I can say is that the more recent moves involving higher picks are all made in the acquisition of players who are younger. There are no more 30+ players coming in. Grabovski was 24, Kessel 21. Schenn 19. Yes, picks are going out, but there is a very different kind of return. The concern is more that we are giving 2 and three picks for a single player. There is no depth in numbers.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
by 1967ers on Nov 20, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Management
has been screwing up on how they handle picks for awhile now, and this is not even from drafting players, it’s the transactions… they’ve been atrocious… they’re either hiring GMs who simply don’t value draft picks or the GMs has no confidence in our scouting department
JFJ especially, came from a scouting back ground, the fact that he was so ready to throw picks out was disturbing to watch…
I dunno
by PLAYOFFS!!!1 on Nov 20, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Drafting is so hit or miss...
In 2003 the traded away Leafs first rounder drafted Mark Stuart (Nolan), 2004 the traded Leafs pick drafted Lauri Korpikoski (Leetch), the 2007 traded first rounder resulted in Lars Eller (Toskala). Then, of course, Tukka Rask.
That’s not all that impressive. No franchise players slipping through our fingers.
I agree that building through the draft is important, but it is also difficult and risky. Kessel is worth 2 first rounders because he’s a proven NHL sniper, unlike anyone that would result from those picks.
Better free agent signings over the last three years would have had a bigger impact on the team than retaining our first rounders.
by TMLSiegeinVancouver on Nov 20, 2009 12:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention the whole issue with “Would the Leafs had drafted that guy?” there is all kinds of if’s and but’s.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s easy to rationalize throwing away firsts on guys like Leetch because hopefully you go deep in the playoffs and a 20+ 1st round pick might as well be a 2nd rounder.
Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Nov 20, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Judging the traded picks by what the other teams drafted makes no sense. If give you $20 and you waste it on ALF pogs, it doesn’t mean I would have spent that $20 the same way.
Who knows who the Leafs would have drafted had they held on to those picks. Their own draft record certainly suggests that they have a pretty good eye for talent.
Boyes was a great pick in 2001 and the Leafs had a phenomenal day at the draft table in 2002 and Rask is looking pretty good for 2004.
Given that track record, I think they would have fared pretty well with many of those lost picks.
The Leetch and Nolan deals also made sense given where the team was in it’s development cycle.
The Raycroft, Toskala and Perreault deals? Not so much.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Leetch and Nolan deals also made sense given where the team was in it’s development cycle.
The Raycroft, Toskala and Perreault deals? Not so much.
That was my only beef.
Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Nov 20, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
at the time
i could talk myself into the Raycroft and Toskala deals as making some sense.
The Leafs needed goaltending, but the price paid does not equal the ROI, unfortunately. Where does the blame lie in that? Doesn’t scouting play a part in trades? Not trying to absolve anyone, but it’s quite upsetting to see the team trade for players of the same position, two years apart, with no real improvement.
Perrault? Still scratching my head over that…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
And that’s why the increase in scouting needs to be matched with an increase and improvement in player development.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who says ALF pogs are a waste?
Leaf, the universe and everything.
by 1967ers on Nov 20, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it's all relative
just like draft picks!
by PLAYOFFS!!!1 on Nov 20, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Nov 20, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You remember Alf?
Well he’s back – in pog form!
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Nov 20, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Alf pogs are never a waste of money
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whew...
That’s a relief. Oh, wait, they could have taken Mike Richards (2003) and Mike Green (2004)? And, well, Lars Eller (2007), who is only 20 but has scored a point per game so far in the AHL?
See, it’s silly to evaluate picks based on who was eventually chosen; most of the time there’s a gem taken two picks after the bust. The picks are valuable for the opportunity to get them right. And if the Leafs had just one player like Mike Richards in the lineup right now, the future would sure look better.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Nov 20, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point
I know we all use the “the picks could be busts” argument to refute the idea that lost picks are guaranteed to be stars but the reality is that losing the opportunity (as MF37 noted) that hurts.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i call bullshit
so the leetch trade was a big win for the rangers because they got the ‘opportunity’ that comes with draft picks, even though all of those picks (and prospects for that matter) turned into nothing players? WAT?
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
by daoust on Nov 20, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Leetch trade had the potential to be a big win for the Rangers. That said, and I don’t know if I was explicit enough about this in the post, both the Leetch and Nolan deals made a lot of sense at the time they went down. Those clubs had a legitmate shot and they loaded up for a cup run.
JFJ’s dealing of picks/prospects made less sense as the team was nowhere near it’s peak in terms of competing.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True, the 2001-2004 Leafs were in a position to really go for it.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sundin
Nieuwendyk
Roberts
Nolan
Francis
McCabe
Kaberle
Antropov
Poni…
Leetch
and more
that’s the 03-04 Leafs roster. That doesn’t even seem fair…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How Dare You Forget to Add ALEXANDER MOGILNY!
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and more...
implies lots of names were left off.
The aforementioned Mogilny
Belfour
Domi
Belak
Kilger
and bright futures with
Coliacovo
Piilar
Hedin
Wellwood
Kondratiev
etc
etc
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Missed the “and more” part
Man that was a strong team, too bad injuries ruined it for us.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I had big-time love for Pilar. I really think if it wasn’t for whatever health problems that ultimately derailed him that he could have developed into a hell of a player.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bad heart, he tried to make a comeback a couple years ago but you could tell his development suffered big time.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
three players the leafs have drafted that had to pull out because of heart issues..well Vorbiev didnt stop playing as much as he’ll never play in the NHL
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I count four- Petr Svoboda, Luca Cereda, Karel Pilar, & Dmitri Vorobiev
...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...
by My Poor Friend Me on Nov 20, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
absolutely
He and Hedin were the future in my eyes.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I LOVED Pilar. That was a killer loss
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 21, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
for sure, huge burn. he looked like he was going to be a solid 3/4 D man.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
by daoust on Nov 21, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still am sad about Luca Cereda too
I really thought he was gonna be good
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 21, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
completely agree. i think that’s why i’m irritated by this post (no offence). all trades for draft picks are seemingly being lumped into the category of “mistakes that made no sense and the reason the leafs suck now”.
i know you (and others) are big on the ‘opportunity’ that comes with draft picks, but given this team’s track record drafting and developing players, i don’t know how anyone can conclude that our team would have been any better the last 5 years – or now – with any of the picks / prospects we traded away.
if we should be bitching about anything it’s the lack of money and effort spent on scouting and player development all those years.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
by daoust on Nov 20, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn’t my intent and that’s why I broke the deals into different points in time.
The Leetch and Nolan trades made sense at the time.
The Toskala, Raycroft and Perreault deals were horrible.
When you combine all of the resources that went out the door and how little the Leafs have to show for it, it’s easy to see why this team has so little talent and so few options.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think we are in complete agreement.
i still think our lack of scouting is what’s really killed us, not a lack of picks.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
by daoust on Nov 20, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to split hairs, but I think the professional scouting – not the amateur – is where the Leafs have been let down.
When they’ve held on to their picks, they’ve done quite well at the table (that 2002 draft class is amazing).
When they’ve traded for pros, they haven’t had much luck – Raycroft, Toskala, Holwegg, Mayers…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To me those trades were out of desperation. I know there’s a lot of Mayers hate but he did stand up for guys last year and I appreciate that.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hollweg was the most useless aquisition ever
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That I won’t argue with. I remember I was driving when I heard the deal was made and yelling out “what the FUCK!”
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we should be bitching about anything it’s the lack of money and effort spent on scouting and player development all those years.
Absolutely and it’s absolutely criminal that we had no idea how little they were spending on scouting before Burke arrived and Cox wrote about the changes.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 21, 2009 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying that the opportunity is more important than what the picks become just that it does hurt to not have more shots at the game.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 21, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
desperate times
- Mats Sundin’s phone rings -
Leafs: Hey, hows it going?
Sundin: Who is this?
Leafs:…. its me….
Sundin: oh…
Leafs: um anyways, I know we haven’t talk in a while and I know the way we left things last time were kind of awkward
Sundin: yeah…
Leafs: I just wanted to say, I miss you and think we should give it another shot
Sundin: oh boy
Leafs: so why do you say, wanna give it another shot?
Sundin: please don’t drunk dial me again
I have a feeling something like this is going to go down
40 years we've stayed loyal, waited, and pained. That is the honor of being a Leafs' fan.
by Kriv on Nov 20, 2009 12:50 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Atleast Sundin will have a legit winger….
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This song keeps playing on loop in my head; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vgfeLat3RI
As per new community rules; all signature tags on PPP must contain the word "truculent".
(843): the red head has a bf
(1-843): just because there's a goalie doesn't mean u can't score
by wrap around curl on Nov 20, 2009 12:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nice. That song was going through my head as I wrote this up.
Same as it ever was…same as it ever was….
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking more along the lines of Simple Plan – Untitled
Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Nov 20, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer
“Do What You Can Do (With What You’ve Got)” by Toronto band The Constantines.
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 20, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
great band, i partied with them in london a couple years ago
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent and severely underrated band. Great indie-style rock.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t actually classify them as a typical “indie-rock” style band. To me they have a very classic rock ‘n’ roll/Rush kinda feel at times. One of those bands that truly carves out their own sound.
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 20, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This article makes me wanna cry. And puke. Some more.
JFC!??
"I woke up from my work nap for THIS!?"
by SweKool on Nov 20, 2009 1:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting tweet
@Cathmoir91 What’s kinda awesome is that the LEafs have lots of upcoming UFAs, none of whom feel the need to bring it in a contract year…good stuff
i find this strangely cathartic and relieving. I’m slowly coming around to the work Burke has done on the back end of this team. Maybe this summer’s draft and free agency will be interesting after all.
Doesn’t help in the here and now unfortunately.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 1:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree. I think (once again) the team will be vastly different next year and if this happens again, I’d be surprised if Burke didn’t go after Wilson because arguably, the team would be filled with more Burke players (ie players he brought in) and at that point he may bring in HIS coach.
Not to suggest that they aren’t on the same page, but it has been mentioned that perhaps Wilson is not the fit for Burke’s preferred style.
by kilowatt44 on Nov 20, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
either the players arent listening or Wilson isnt getting his message across properly…. there just seems to be a disconnect between player – coach – gm
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the team is struggling to find an identity. wilson was brought in to preach defense and structure. that’s failed. this season we were again supposed to be tough and sound defensively, so far its failed.
to be honest, id rather wilson try and recreate the 99 version of the leafs and lets try and win games 6-4 or 7-5.
what do we have to lose besides more games…time is slowly running out and i want to win, as every other leaf fan does i’m sure.
by kilowatt44 on Nov 20, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pretty much, as fans we cant worry about the draft picks we lost, theyre gone and aint coming back. We have to just try and focus on the few positives that we do have.
Young players in the system, you guys all know the names, but it is going to take time to develop them. This year will be painful, but the hope is that long term it works out for the best.
The fact that alot of guys have expiring contracts is a great thing as well, while the UFA pool wont be as deep as we would like it to be, at least we will have money to play with and available roster spots for those who want to earn them.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there's some interesting gems in the FA pool
- Ryan Shannon
- Eric Nystrom
- Colby Armstron
- Joel Perrault
- Pierre-Alexandre Parenteau
- Dave Steckel
- Alex Frolov
- Raffi Torres
- Matthew Lombardi
not to mention, Rene Borque, Ilya Kovalchuk, Marc Savard and some guy named Chris Durno…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but they could be gems if any of them are signed to the Leafs and play well.
Maybe you’re just getting ahead of yourself! :)
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear Savard is close to resigning but Kovalchuck is holding out for now. Apparently wants insane term and dollars
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Patrick Marleau
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ill put money down right now that Burke gets Colby armstrong
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s cooled off this year after getting moved down to the third line so he might come relatively cheap.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
even though he is a burke style player, i dont see Colby being much of a difference maker in terms of wins and losses though
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely not. But he’s a better replacement for Stempniak – Primeau-Wallin-Mayers.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I fully expect Borque to be high on the Leafs’ list come July if he doesn’t re-up.
by birky on Nov 20, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He won’t. The Flames won’t have the money to sign him unless they get rid of Jokinen.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Most people bring up Chicago as the poster-team for cap problems, but boy Calgary is another one. I wonder if they’ll have to repeat their performance at the end of last season when they sat legitimate players and had to use AHL scrubs just so they wouldn’t violate the cap limit.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
re-signing
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, Jokinen will definitely hit free agency.
He’s on pace for 12 goals.
Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Nov 20, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s worth $5 million right?
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No way do i want Jokinen
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh come on. 12 goals? Lets give the guy Blake Money.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because any time you have the opportunity to sign a 12 goal scorer for $5M per, that’s a deal you HAVE to make, right?
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uhh, Blake is making $4 million and on pace for 8 goals. Hence the extra million fo Jokinen.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See the logic is flawless!
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The young guys in the system are solid prospects, but there are no guarantees. I was pretty high on Mitchell, Grabovski, Stajan and Kulemin this year, but they’re not doing much and how knows if the prospects will pan out. As for the UFA pool, it’s not very deep, and even worse when you consider that some of the UFA’s this summer will be re-signed before then.
I’m starting to wonder if Kessel will have anyone close to his ability to play with over the next couple of years, and if not, maybe we shouldn’t have traded picks away to get him.
by Akihockey on Nov 20, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hard to argue with that logic….. we could be in for some serious torture the next year or two
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a good old fashioned Gilmour style trade would be awesome right about now
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a Risebrough or Milbury-level sucker GM out there?
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Murray? Snow? ……. not anymore……
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
crazy things happen in the NHL
guys have a bad season. or two, or three.
if people want to preach development, that doesn’t mean the Marlies or junior exclusively.
Olli Jokinen didn’t crack 30 points his first 3 seasons in the NHL, Lecavalier’s first 4 years point toals were 28, 67, 51, 37.
Their teams hung on to them, let them develop. Maybe we could learn a thing or two from the South East?
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For the last decade, Toronto has been a here and now franchise that sacrifices the future as mf37 showed. It’s definitely time for a change in philosophy in T.O. (Kessel trade excluded)
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i constantly remind myself
of how badly I wanted the Leafs to get rid of Ian White at the beginning of last season, and I was not the only one.
now we want him to be the Captain.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I too thought we would move him. I wasn’t pushing him out the door, but I didn’t see him as being able to play well enough defensively to crack our lineup.
Now, C or not, he is our Captain.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Nov 20, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think anyone is saying get rid of the youth, i think people want to see the under acheiving vets (BLAKE) and their big cotnracts off this team in the near future so we can give the ice to young players and let them grow as a team. They may get spanked for a year or two (maybe even longer) but we are all in the for the long haul. Burke doesnt have an easy job, and realistically, we shouldnt have expected so much out of his team this early into his tenure. This will take time
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i was referencing this:
I was pretty high on Mitchell, Grabovski, Stajan and Kulemin this year, but they’re not doing much and how knows if the prospects will pan out.
from above
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying we should dump those players, just that I don’t see indications yet that they’re going to compliment Kessel. Leafs have some solid secondary scoring depth at this point; was we need are two more top-flight forwards, and I don’t see hints of that in the system, or the liklihood of acquiring that in free agency.
by Akihockey on Nov 20, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
one season.
patience…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea, i dont think panicing and dumping young players is the way to go.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This, a billion times
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Nov 20, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wilson is dead set against moving White back to forward, but if Gunnarrson continues to play well and Komisarek returns, maybe he should consider if to bolster our offense.
by Akihockey on Nov 20, 2009 2:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hell, if it doesn’t work, MOVE HIM BACK. Wilson’s acting like once he’s moved to forward, he’s stuck there for the rest of the season.
by Akihockey on Nov 20, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But White is our most reliable defenceman right now, i dont think we can afford to lose that
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ian White – Most underrated defenseman in the NHL today.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and being paid 650,000 k
I think he is getting a bit of a raise next year
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Nov 20, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Kaberle is moved
Probably a decent raise, as he would be our top puck-moving D-man
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Nov 20, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How much is too much?
I’m falling back in love with White, but I have my limits.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea
Everyone realizes he’s under-rated and underpaid, but I couldn’t even give you a ballpark figure what he’s actually worth
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Nov 20, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True, but when Komisarek returns, why not try it for a game or two?
by Akihockey on Nov 20, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a logjam at forward already as it is, and a logjam at defense. In my opinion Burke fucked up by having too many players.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still dont know why we signed Wallin….
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For the Monster. It was a package deal without being a package deal. But yeah, what a waste as he’s taking up Hanson’s roster spot.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is the NHL, there should be no room for sympathy roster spots. Tell Jonas to deal with it, the guy wont last
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not a sympathy roster spot. He’s not the problem.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
of course hes not “The” problem, but he isnt really helping in any tangible way. I dont see it at least…. what exactly is he doing? Hes not scoring and its not like he has paid any dividends on the defensive side of the puck, we are still getting eaten alive while he is out there………
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t want to scapegoat Wilson, but jeez, maybe it’s time for him to go. I doubt that’ll happen though.
by Akihockey on Nov 20, 2009 2:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
One word
Olympics
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming Wilson gets fired; who do you replace him with? Mactavish? Laviolette?
by Akihockey on Nov 20, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Laviolette
I hate him but he made the Islanders and the Hurricanes good.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how awesome would a Burke Tortorella combo be lol
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What
about Nolan?
"I woke up from my work nap for THIS!?"
by SweKool on Nov 20, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
"I woke up from my work nap for THIS!?"
by SweKool on Nov 20, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure what he’s done in his other jobs that has made him basically radioactive to GMs looking for new coaches.
But in my opinion you can do a lot worse. Dammit, the man can coach.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d see the Leafs go after Laviolette or Ftorek before Nolan.
by birky on Nov 20, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d be fine with Laviolette too.
Ftorek, I don’t know.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ftorek has a good track record. He was just part of that Devils streak of firing coaches in April.
by birky on Nov 20, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If those sweaters are part of the deal, I want no part of Ftorek.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Do we want another ex-Canes coach?
Besides, I can’t handle those ears.
Grabo's virtual linemate.
by Sergei Puckizin on Nov 20, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
seconded
I can only assume he’s slept with every GM’s wife, as his not having a job is insane.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the leafs record is this bad this time next year, he will be gone. I think his rope lasts until this then. I just pray he has this team playing good hockey to start the season next year
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you hope carlyle gets fired and comes here
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have more
of an issue with Burke then Wilson right now
by PLAYOFFS!!!1 on Nov 20, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would anyone be happy with a lateral move?
IF the Leafs could actually make a deal, would you be OK with it only being a lateral type move? For example, if the Leafs packaged a deal for a guy like David Backes or Jeoffry Lupul, would you be satisfied? I think just a change of scenery, for me at least, would be a nice.
by birky on Nov 20, 2009 2:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I can’t even think of a package that St. Louis would accept for Backes (bad as he’s been this year) or Anaheim for Lupul.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
indeed it would be at the very least 2 nhl ready prospects to pry away backes
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lupul can’t be traded unless Pronger’s involved. I think that was in the CBA.
Resident Capologist
by clrkaitken on Nov 20, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if we had of traded kaberle and steen for pronger we would have made the playoffs at least once by now…
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Stajan
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But at the same time the Sens might’ve won the cup since Pronger was one of the key pieces to Anahiems d-core
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No because the Leafs would have eliminated them.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t say his name!
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate JFJ but he was on the right track when he went after Zdeno Chara. I think if he got him to sign he would have made that trade for Pronger with Kaberle and Steen.
Imagine THAT!
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is one big and scary top D man pairing.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like having Godzilla and Mothra on your back line.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“Redden is better than Chara, without a doubt we have to keep Redden”
-Everyone in Ottawa
The Chara acquisition would have helped a few ways, namely it would have sorted out our need for a stud dman, and he would have also breathed fire on any contract JFJ was writing with the name “Bryan McCabe” on it, for that matter, pronger = no Kubina.
by Johnny Thunder on Nov 20, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think the biggest mistakes were the goaltending follies. I mean 2 first rounders for toskala and Raycroft? were there no better options out there?
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the other domino effect. Either those two are good enough to mask Raycroft or they give JFJ the confidence to go with Tellqvist/Aubin ORRRRRRRRRRRR
having those two makes Toronto an unbelievably appealing destination for UFA goalies.
Plus, maybe the knock on effect is that instead of Vancouver getting Luongo the leafs would have had the assets to make the deal
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
godamn it. why us?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this day has become just way too depressing
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2007 (toskala trade) FA goalies
Garon
Nitymakki
Saborin
Boucher
2006 (raycrof trade) UFA goalies
Dunham
Gerber
McLennen
Hasek
Graham
Johnson
all could have been had for “free”
nothing spectacular, but still, could they have been worse?
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gerber in 06 and anyone but Saborin in 07 would have been fine.
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So now the question is who do we replace Toskala with for next year?
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right now, Joey Mac
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ehhh I’m not sold on him he’s a great back up (10-25 games) but right now we’ll need someone to tandem with Gusto.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right now yes we do, but do we next year?
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry I worded it right, I meant:
“ehhh I’m not sold on him he’s a great back up (10-25 games) but we’ll need someone to tandem with Gusto.”
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
UFA goalies for next year
Take your pick:
http://capgeek.com/contracts.php?Year=2010&Team=All&Position=G&FAType=2&FilterButton=APPLY+FILTER
They call me Splodeybones.
by SkinnyFish on Nov 20, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm…. toug choice
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hiller, Nabokov and Turco will all be resigned
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Emery keeps playing well I can imagine the Flyers trying to reup him too.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Rinne in Nashville
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
by JohnnyG on Nov 20, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but he might paper chase unless he really likes philly
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d imagine they’ll give him a contract he’ll like
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Turco might not be. He’s not the same goalie he was a few years back.
he’s also 34 now.
by birky on Nov 20, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think they have anyone else in mind either though
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They’ll prolly sign him to a 1-2 year deal
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Biron could be had for cheap, want?
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He wants to be a starter though
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s going to have to prove it this year
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hasek in 2006 would have been a hell of a pick up…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
THANKS JFJ
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
after the 1999 conference finals, I loathed Hasek. And will continue this. FOREVER.
by birky on Nov 20, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
me too, and he just woulda got hurt for us instead of the sens after they olympics, but we’d still have Rask….
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Legace (the guy that beat the Leafs last night in Carolina) was also a UFA at the time of the Raycroft deal.
Raycroft was an RFA when the Leafs acquired him. The compensation for the contract he signed with the Leafs would have been a 2nd round pick.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
god that burns
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bryzgalov was waived by Anaheim two months after we paid a first for Toskala.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Nov 20, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But did Phoenix get a power forward like Mark Bell with Bryzgalov? Oh, wait…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 9:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
indeed, there had to have been something he could have acquired for half the cost and gotten just as much out of them
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
funny thing to, im pretty sure belfour still played better than raycroft with florida that year
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah he did:
Belfour .902 vs He who shall not be named .894
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think the biggest mistakes were the goaltending follies. I mean 2 first rounders for toskala and Raycroft?
I agree.
The biggest non-move was the failure to trade McCabe and Tucker.
They were at their absolute peak value as pending UFAs and should have been moved for a mountain of picks and prospects.
Instead they got boat anchor contracts, both with NMCs.
Tucker’s buy-out is still on the books and McCabe cost the Leafs a 4th round pick to move.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but at the time of their signings they were beloved by the, if JFJ didn’t resign McCabe he would’ve gotten a lot of flac for it.
The Tucker buyout IMO was premature.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tucker and McCabe would have both fetched a kings ransom in the pre cap era
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But they were both resigned after the salary cap we instituted.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly, if they had been traded at peak value, which was the year before the lock out (im pretty sure anyways)
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
According to CapGeek:
Tucker was re-signed in 2007 & McCabe in 2006
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tucker re-upped in February 2007.
McCabe re-upped in the summer of 2006.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
never mind then, this is scrambling my brain
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GMs are paid to make the right decisions not the popular ones.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I was a major proponent for trading Tucker back in ’07.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a friend that sent out angry e-mails after every game in McCabe’s contract year because he knew it would be an anchor of a contract.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too – 10 reasons to trade Tucker from January 2007.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Tucker buyout IMO was premature.
2008 74GP 18G 16A -8
2009 64GP 8G 8A -13
You might want to reconsider that position.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We should’ve waited a year, at the very least. We’re paying him $1M for the next 6 Years!
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes we are
which is precisely why we should grit our teeth and bear jason blake until 2012.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
id rather have him claimbed through waivers than bought ou t
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’d make it through the first round. Teams would wait for him on recall to see if they could get him at $2M/per.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, he’d be snatched on re-call for sure
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So pay him $3M to play poorly and be a bad apple in the room, just to shave a year off the buyout? Interesting…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
- 2 years off the buyout.
Last year we were rebuilding, and we had the cap space so that $3M wouldn’t have hurt as much.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I despise Tucker for saddling the team with a buyout. How he escapes flack for that is beyond me.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfzPsv2KT2Y
and others.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All prior to his new deal in 2007.
By the time he was re-upped he had clearly peaked and he should have been dealt.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the problem with some Leaf fans, we get too caught up with the players we have because they ONLY watch the Leafs and don’t see other talent around the league as a baseline.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As the proud owner of a Darcy Tucker jersey, it saddens me to agree with you.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i wouldn’t say i despise him, but it’s tainted him for me.
mccabe gets shit on still a fair bit, but he dealt with his exit about as professionally as could be expected.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
by daoust on Nov 20, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We should all remember this
They were at their absolute peak value as pending UFAs and should have been moved for a mountain of picks and prospects.
when Kaberle’s name comes up. Should have done the same thing with Stajan last season….
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, I think the move has to be made now.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not saying i agree with you
but i TOTALLY agree with you
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Torn
Half of me wants to trade Kaberle but the other half of me says that puck moving d-men are hard to come by and replacing him would be difficult.
The big factor is when does Burke think the team will be competitive, if he intended to do a real rebuild, then by all means trade him.
But since Burke is intent on re-tooling and gunning for the playoffs this year and next, then perhaps keeping him is the best option.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I fear trading Kaberle would be like trading a shiny looney for two rolls of pennies.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
peak value
if that’s what it is, that’s what it is.
highest scoring d-man in the league, on the worst team in the league? Somebody is more than interested in his services…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. If the price is right, everyone – even Kessel – is expendable.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
amen
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Burke may have initially intended to re-tool and go for the playoffs, but if he honestly thinks there’s a chance this team makes the playoffs next year much less this year then he’s deluding himself.
I’m not sure Kabby will be good enough by the time the Leafs are competitive again, and he won’t be all that young. I know puck moving d-men are hard to find but maybe it’s time for us to cut our emotional ties to him and for Burke and his staff to find new ones somehow.
The only thing Burke should be calculating re: Kaberle is if he can get more value for him now than at the trade deadline. And I know he said he wouldn’t ask Kabby to waive his NTC, but you know what? Circumstances change, and people who don’t realize that and act accordingly are fools.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am pretty sure Kabby is gone next summer at the latest
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a team in our position needs to deal veteran assets for puicks/prospects, i dont think we have much choice anymore
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if the Leafs are this bad all season, I think burke will be recouping picks like they are going out of style
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
for sure, that being said. We always have our late feb early march winning streak that gets us out of the draft lottery to look forward to
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With what though?
If I were a rival GM I wouldn’t even touch half this Leafs team, not to mention I can some of them for “free” come free agency.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
teams would want depth guys for playoff runs. we wouldnt get much for them (3rd – 5th round picks) but at least its something. Stemp, Mayers, Stajan, poni, primeau could all net you something of value
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see a team even giving up a 6th rounder for Stajan Mayers or Primeau
Poni if he continues to be the big body up front could MAYBE get a 2nd from a desperate team. Stemp… maybe something but not much
With Leafs goggles off… these are not quality players
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Nov 20, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
stajan would get a 3rd out of a team needing a 2 way depth center, Mayers and Exelby wont get anything higher than a 4th
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stajan and Poni will each go for a low 2nd or a 3rd.
Exelby might get a 4th.
Primeau and Mayers a 5th or 6th.
Small, diminishing returns…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thus secondary deals with those picks. I don’t see any firsts coming back for anything short of Kabby, Schenn and Kessel, but there might be a way to get a few seconds
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to put things into perspective:
Antropov went for a 2nd + Conditional 4th
I really don’t think anyone is going to offer a 2nd for either players.
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why?
Stajan is an excellent third liner and PK guy, playing out of his element.
In a playoff run, when injuries mount and the season hangs on a thread of win or go home, you’ll need to be as deep (or as lucky) as possible to go the distance.
guys like Stajan, Stempniak and Poni are what GM’s are looking for. Relatively cheap, expiring contracts and proven NHL abilities.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
even exelby falls into that category for a team berthed of defensemen or gritt
but he would net less of a return
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GMs will look back at the relatively recent complete dissolution of the Sabres finals hopes due to injury and realize they don’t want to be in that position.
those Sabres were stacked, and IIRC, they had 7 regular roster players out of the lineup.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Rick Jeanneret was dressed as the 7th D for game seven against the ’Canes.
That Sabres team was decimated by injuries.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Getting a little cramped in here…
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah and something ridiculous like 4 or 5 of their normal top 6 D were out. Unbelievable.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
look at the pens right now
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yup, then i can see Burke doing secondary movies like (non realistic example) Tlusty and a 3rd for a 1st
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d do that in a heartbeat
by PassivelyTruculent on Nov 20, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Puck moving defencemen
Beauchemin
Gunnarsson
White
None are on par with Kaberle, but we don’t exactly have only one mover. Beauchemin has started settling down, his game is getting more polished. He’s picking his pinches a little better…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also Mikus and Blacker project as good two way defensemen
Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 20, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
plus, we have had kaberle as our puck moving dman for a long time and we havent made the playoffs in going on 5 years now, is he really worth that much to us? its not like we even do that well with him running shit the way he does. if we can get a 1st rounder and a prospect, i make the deal
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 20, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s sad because if JFJ had only pulled a Costanza and done the complete opposite of his gut instinct he would have been a great GM.
Trade McCabe and Tucker
Sign UFA goalies
Better draft position
More draft picks
He really highlighted Bill Simmons’ theory that common sense could be a better GM.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 20, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Better draft position
More draft picks
And this would have allowed him to rely on his instincts where they were actually good; finding and drafting talent.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
by stucky on Nov 20, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
INTERESTING
The Blackhawks may need to shed salary before they can officially announce the signings of Toews, Kane and Keith.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good thing the Leafs have $500K in cap space…time to fire up the waiver wire and clear some room.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Nov 20, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
YES
positivity. It’s infectious!
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Nov 20, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This wouldn’t be an issue. If they Leafs can deal expiring contracts with equal value for players with long-term deals, this could work.
by birky on Nov 20, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
About Ted *Chief* Nolan
- what IS the story about his career? Everybody seems to agree that he is a really great coach. But why isn´t he an NHL-coach? What happened after his Islanders gig?
He must have ticked off some important people in the league, or?
I heard some rumours here in Sweden( from a player) supposedly in “the know” a bit, that he has a drinking problem that flares up now and then – if it´s true, I have no clue.
All I do know is that he has a great record and is a players coach.
So why is he no longer in the NHL coaching?
"I woke up from my work nap for THIS!?"
by SweKool on Nov 20, 2009 7:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’ve heard some chatter (unsourced) that it’s his native heritage that makes him “difficult”, makes owners/GMs find reasons to fire him or some other bullshit excuse.
In other words, racial issues in the NHL aren’t exactly solved.
I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.
by kidkawartha on Nov 20, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve heard some other less savoury and more outlandish rumours.
Whatever the reason, it’s ridiculous.
Although we probably shouldn’t speculate anymore. We have no idea.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 21, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Shut the F... UP
It could be last call, actually it should be. Stop your F#%^&#$g anaysis.We suck,but onjy for now,I am not new to Maple Leaf heartbreak. DGB is right on, my daughters had me pegged for 8 out of the 10. You want pain? I’ll give you effing pain…12 yrs old,new to Canada. First 8 out of 12 years here…4,yes 4 fucking Cups,what a great country,what a great city,I am now resigned to the fact that I reside in Montreal, and nothing gives me greater pleasure than knowing people in Montreal my age don’t give a shit about 24 Stanley Cups..they can.t stand the fact about the one that “got away” in 1967. So F them and their 67 chants. As an elder statesman I am happy to remind them that 1993 will soon be their 1967.
by trappedinhabland on Nov 20, 2009 9:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
A few things:
1. That sucks. You want pain? about seein 0 Cups.
2. What would you have us do? Not talk about it? We’ll talk about it as much as we like and you can read it as much as you like.
3. Keep up the good work in Montreal. Keep reminding them that 1993 is going to be their 1967.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 21, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm impressed with some of the answers...
… posed in the comment section. I agree that there are several factors that over-ride another. But one event doesn’t necessarily mitigate the effects of another’s consequences. Examples; Draft picks for Toskala and Bell or Rask for Raycroft. While it is true that these trades crippled our franchise’s depth, I feel it’s not the right excuse; quality players can be found everywhere, even in Afghanistan if you look hard enough.
What I’m proposing is that the Muskoka Five’s attitudes and last-stand defiance still reverberates in today’s dressing room. Jason Blake, Alexei Ponikarovsky, Vesa Toskala, Matt Stajan, Ian White, and Tomas Kaberle are the remaining hold-overs from that disastrous 2007-08 season. They were around to see how Mats Sundin, Pavel Kubina, Bryan McCabe, and Darcy Tucker conducted themselves during the media shit-storm that followed the team that year. It was an awful year for both the team and the fans. I’d argue that that season game-to-game was worse than what we’re going through today.
Each of those hold-overs from that ugly season, other than Kaberle and White, are mired in ugly slumps, languid play, lazy back-checking efforts, and poor on-ice decision making. What bugs me is that they are all considered to be the “veterans” on that team. Veterans influence kids. Try this on for size; John Mitchell, a great Toronto guy, understands what this team means to the city, a good player in his own right, is playing like Jason Blake: selfishly, lazily, and stupidly. Same goes for Luke Schenn, Niklas Hagman, Mikhail Grabovski, and Nikolas Kulemin. All are so maddeningly inconsistent. None have progressed, other than Grabovski, who has a close relationship to Wilson.
I think the veterans I’ve singled out have tuned out Wilson and some of the younger guys are unwittingly following suit. However, I’ve noticed that ever since Mike Komisarek arrived, we’re beginning to see a bit of a culture shift. It’s subtle, but every-time he’s on the ice, the team plays harder, more courageously, and smarter. Recently, our play has been terrible. I don’t think it’s much of a surprise that the proponent of that success has been Toskala. His ass is on the line and he’s starting to take charge and responsibility.
Making I’m over-analyzing this, but if I had to blame anyone for this entire mess, it’s the Muskoka Five for making a clusterfuck of that dressing room. We need to get rid of Blake, Stajan, Poni, and Toskala as soon as possible.
by hockeysense on Nov 23, 2009 8:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good thoughts
I think that the attitude problem was the first thing Wilson noted and he’s not done with it.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Nov 24, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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