A query;

by wrap around curl on Dec 20, 2009 4:40 PM EST Comment 19 comments

I know there has been much discussion and debate about Luke Schenn. Obviously I don't like hearing ugly talk about him. But I can't help but wonder if there are contributing factors affecting how we analyze Schenn. So, is it because the Leafs are much better (in some aspects, bear with me) this season that he looks worse? Or is it because the team was in rough shape last year and he looked that much better? Discuss.

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its a combination of things me thinks
he got bumped down the depth chart with the off season trades and White being generally awesome so that probably hurt his confidence a might.
Also the team blew pretty bad for a while and that didnt help anyones confidence
then throw in the fact that he is no longer a rookie and his mistakes are no longer being looked at with the whole “oh its his first time” mentality

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by JaredFromLondon on Dec 20, 2009 4:45 PM EST reply actions

It’s probably the haters that piss me off the most. They expect him to be like Jay Bouwmeester or Shea Weber. He’s a shutdown defenseman and that’s his job. He has done well, i’ve got no problems with him really. My fanpost about Schenn was more of a point of comparison to other draft picks in the draft/rant about stupidity involving people judging Schenn. When you’re 19 and you’re the (studly) face of the francise, you’d probably feel alot of pressure. Crosby had Lemieux on his team/by his side in his rookie season (when he was 18 too), while Ovechkin had Crosby’s hype shielding him/no expectations from anything out of Washington. Noone really cared about the Blackhawks until Patrick Kane was playing for them. Schenn was just a guy who impressed his coach and made the team with hard work. This year Burke has made him the “face” of the franchise and with the expectations of playing in Toronto thanks to morons like Cox and Berger saying that the Leafs are doomed to mediocrity. Anyone who’s giving him crap should just shut their trap about him and try looking at it from his perspective

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by Kevin Sellathamby on Dec 20, 2009 5:06 PM EST reply actions

Anyone who’s giving him crap should just shut their trap about him and try looking at it from his perspective

I probably sound like a hypocrite because I give far more leeway to troubled athletes than most people, but I don’t think Luke Schenn was naive to the expectations expected of him as a top-5 draft pick. If Schenn can’t handle criticisms and/or learns how to deal with the constant media/fan probe, he won’t be long for Toronto. Should he do it alone? Of course not, but ultimately, the responsibility lies with Luke himself to internalize what he needs to improve on, learn to play his game, and take note from advice given to him by his coaching staff.

Schenn isn’t a franchise player if he doesn’t play like one. And given his lofty draft position, unfair expectations and criticisms will be heaped upon him. I have my own questions about how Toronto has handled Luke Schenn and his development so far, but that doesn’t mean Schenn himself is immune to critique if appropriate. Schenn is paid handsomely to play hockey and it’s on him to play his game, whatever that will be in the future. Don’t heap scorn on the people who rightfully calls shenanigans on his play, which hasn’t been up to snuff this season.

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by bkblades on Dec 20, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions

bearing in mind he's 20 years old and his opponents are the best hockey players in the world..

i don’t think people are “rightfully calling shenanigans” he has struggled compared to last year, yes this is true but you have to consider there is a year’s worth of film on him now, his weaknesses have been exposed and other teams attack him differently than they did last year.. when luke’s play reaches the same solid standard that it was at last year he will be playing at a much higher level.. the process of development for a defensive player is all about mitigating threats and minimizing weaknesses.. if you can stop the man but can’t take away the passing lanes to save your life, other teams are going to do nothing but pass (weak example but if you insert any two key skills for a defensive player you’ll see my point) luke isn’t getting the minutes he was last year because teams have learned to play against him, when his defense becomes more complete you’ll see the responsibility placed back on his shoulders and he’ll be a much more complete player…

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by AkiSchennberg on Dec 20, 2009 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs

rec'd

for sharp analysis

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by Wan Ihite on Dec 21, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions

Someone may have to verify this, but wasn’t this year his first time playing the left side?

That might excuse some of the poor play early on.

by Robot Godzilla on Dec 20, 2009 5:50 PM EST reply actions

I do think you are correct on that. I recall Cherry ranting about it early in the season.

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by wrap around curl on Dec 20, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions

Okay

First – we should have sent him back to juniors last year. Yes yes hindsight is 20/20 but why the hell did we rush a 19 year old defenseman? He was given all sorts of leeway last year because a) it was his rookie year, b) we really didn’t have anyone else stepping up c) he played some decent hockey.

I think the Leafs have mismanaged him since last year and we are seeing the results this year. He was given the reigns on this team as a top 4 minute guy – who in fact has been playing top 4 minutes in pretty much his entire hockey life up until now. Getting in a whole new slew of D-men (only Kabby, White and Finger remain from last year’s group) to play with and figuring out where you belong is a difficult thing to do for this kid.

Yes he is a professional hockey player and he has shown maturity beyond his years, but he is playing in the biggest most hockey-mad market ever for a team that has lacked success for several years. Honestly guys, some people are treating him like he is a 10 year veteran. He is still developing physically(conditioning wise) mentally and emotionally. Also, he has only one year of experience to draw from.

Sure I don’t see into the private life of Luke Schenn, but from my perspective he has not been handled anywhere close to optimally. The organization needs to step up and get this kid what he needs – whether it is a sports psychologist or a mentor or whatever – to get his development (YES DEVELOPMENT) back on track. We drafted this kid in June a year and a half a go!

Also, he is slated and projected to be a defensive defenseman – this is a different kind of talent than being offensively gifted. Being able to score and pass beautifully is something that can be worked on but it is basically an innate ability. Being an offensive Dman is an easier skill to build on because you are initiating plays.

Trying to play a defensive role is(in my opinion) more difficult because you have to anticipate the play and be in the proper position to make the best play. Schenn’s ability to read the play is not up to the NHL level yet and it may be a few more years before he is able to effectively shut down top players

Let’s face it, there are multiyear veterans out there who have a hard time shutting down top offensive talent as it is and somehow we expect this kid to smother the likes of Ovechkin, Crosby, Carter, etc?

Let’s have a reality check, people. This kid has enough pressure that he puts on himself, we don’t need to be heaping on unrealistic expectations.

He is having (seemingly in everyone’s minds) a poor first 30 some-odd games…

We have to face the fact that although he has great potential we can’t expect him to just step on the ice and be a phenomenal player. He is not a generational talent or even an elite player – he is a guy that we want to develop into an anchor on the defensive end of our team for years to come.

Relax, take a breath, step back and hope that he can get back on track and eventually become the player he has the potential to be.

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by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Dec 20, 2009 6:36 PM EST reply actions

At first I thought it was a mistake to keep him up but afterwards I realized if he is getting the minutes they are likely more valuable being NHL minutes vs. AHL minutes. Now I do not think this is the case is every situation, for some players it would be beneficial to be in the minors and doing better (I.e the confidence issue). But depending on the player if they are level-headed enough I imagine getting minutes in the NHL teaches them more.

Is Schenn one of the ones that is level headed enough about taking on the learning curve in the NHL? I don’t know. The people closer to the team would be a better situation to judge that then fans.

However even with the struggles he has faced this year I don’t see the AHL being beneficial at all to Schenn, I can’t see him learning anymore there then he would here and because of that I would keep him up with the big club now.

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by JohnnyG on Dec 20, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions

Honestly

I don’t see how Luke can learn playing against weaker opponents and at a slower pace, both of which the AHL is ripe with. He’s proven he can hang tough in the NHL, so the thing now is to challenge the kid even further, so to speak.

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by Marc Pilgrim on Dec 20, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions

completely wrong

I don’t see how Luke can learn playing against weaker opponents and at a slower pace, both of which the AHL is ripe with. He’s proven he can hang tough in the NHL, so the thing now is to challenge the kid even further, so to speak.

But depending on the player if they are level-headed enough I imagine getting minutes in the NHL teaches them more.
Is Schenn one of the ones that is level headed enough about taking on the learning curve in the NHL?
However even with the struggles he has faced this year I don’t see the AHL being beneficial at all to Schenn, I can’t see him learning anymore there then he would here and because of that I would keep him up with the big club now.

Both of you are completely wrong. The NHL is not for learning. The NHL is for winning and showing you are the best. Its a professional game. Its a job, and its supposed to be taken seriously by the people who are paid to play it. You have to be in shape. You have to have stamina. You have to have skill. You have to have the tools for every situation. You’re supposed to practice hard, and you’re supposed to play well. Not knowing your positioning is just as unforgivable as not having the endurance to play a whole game. Many players don’t understand this. They think just because they are blessed with gobs of talent, the waters will part and they don’t have to listen to anyone. That mentality sees all kinds of guys off to Europe or Russia. Coaches and players are paid to be mistake-free and to show that they can win in the regular season, win in the playoffs, and win the Cup. Period.

The AHL is for development. So are the junior leagues/college. That’s where you are supposed to make mistakes. That’s where your coach will take you aside and tell you what you did wrong, and how to fix it. That’s where a player can learn to read plays, and see gaps develop, and figure out when to pinch and when to rush, how to fake a shot or dangle a defenceman or make that breakaway pass up the middle.
You can’t try things out in an NHL game against NHL opponents. They will burn you. The game is too strong, too fast, and too important. If you screw up too many times, you will get cut/traded/forgotten.

Schenn stood out last year because he was on a terrible team that lost a lot of games. He played what, 23-ish minutes per game last season? And the team let in the most goals in the league. Worst. Last. #30 of 30. So a supposed top defenceman wasn’t helping all that much with team defence. And now that the team has real professionals and a real defensive core, his faults are glaringly apparent. He’s not the players that Kaberle/White/Beauchemin are. His closest model is Komisarek, and has nowhere near the poise or knowledge that Komi does. Right now, he’s about as good as Finger, which is why he finds himself on the same benched/scratched merry-go-round. And being Finger Jr is not a good thing; the guy was a marginal NHLer who shows it every time he is in a critical situation, and will soon find himself counting his buyout money outside of the NHL.

But I’m not saying it’s Schenn’s fault, or that he’s a bust or anything like that. He’s barely 20 years old. He should still be in Kelowna, but that ship has sailed. He does need to learn a lot now. He’s barely NHL ready, which is why Wilson only trusts him with 15 minutes or less. He needs to earn back his 20+ minutes, and that can only come with confident, mistake-free shifts. And since he clearly looks lost on the ice at times [missed coverage in front of the net, slow response to play coming back to Toronto’s end, puckhandling flubs] he definitely needs to learn how to play better.

The AHL is slower. The competition is worse. That’s the point, that’s why it’s meant to be a learning ground. You can find your game because you’re given more opportunities and less punishment. Guys aren’t as quick on turnovers, guys aren’t as hard on the forecheck, guys don’t pass as well or shoot as well, guys don’t cycle as well, guys aren’t as committed to coverage. You get the time and space to do the right thing. You learn what the right thing is. You learn where to be, and when to go and when to stop.

Take Stalberg. In the pre-season, we all thought this guy looked phenomenal: great speed, great shot, and he seemed to know what to do with himself on the ice. Then he got rocked by Volchenkov and all that exuberence seemingly got knocked out of him, along with Wilson’s trust. He lost his game. So they sent him down to the Marlies. Was it as punishment? Did he get worse with all the lesser talent and the slower game? Of course not. That environment helped him rediscover his game. Here’s what he had to say before the Buffalo game (paraphrased): “Dallas Eakins was a great coach. I got to be in a lot of different situations that I didn’t normally see: powerplay, penalty kill, last shifts of the period or the game. He gave me a lot of ice-time and helped my defensive-zone play.”
That’s why the AHL is important. It’s not a barn league anymore. Its run by experienced coaches who are given their orders by the bigwigs of the main club. They know what to work on with each player. The guys that are almost there are given the opportunities to show they can do what’s expected at the NHL-level. The guys that aren’t close enough stay down until they are shown all the things they do wrong and get taught all the right moves. That’s where Schenn should be. That’s the environment where he won’t be scrutinized (which can be just as damaging to a young player) but will be given all the chances to figure out his game.

Most players aren’t blessed with instant NHL ability. They have to come along slowly. Forwards typically break out between 22-24. Defence typically 24-26. Goalies are usually around 26 or 27. By all normal measures, Schenn could be another 4 years away from being a great pro. So if he has to spend a year or two with the Marlies, and then another year or two being a secondary defenceman before he emerges as that true top-pairing that we all hope he is, so what? Because I’d rather us wait for him to be good than give up too early; no player was ever ruined by waiting a bit longer, but plenty have been by being rushed.
And tell me, on a 2-on-1 in the third period of a one-goal Game Seven, is Luke Schenn the defenceman you want taking that rush? Are you confident right now that he will make the right play 9 times out of 10? As confident as you’d be if it was Kaberle? Or Lidstrom? Or Chara, Niedermayer, or Pronger? Because I’m not. Every time I watch him play D I get a lump in my throat because I think he will get beaten on the outside, or miss a clear, or cough up the puck, or lose his man. And I don’t wan’t that to happen anymore. I want him to be that Game Seven defender. I want him to be one of the best and most reliable in the league.

And I can wait.

by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 21, 2009 4:44 AM EST up reply actions

Holy rant batman.

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by nhlcheapshot on Dec 21, 2009 9:08 AM EST up reply actions

whoaa

before you go throwing out WRONGs all over the place.. luke won’t see the same talent that he’s being challenged to stop right now if he gets sent to the AHL, his fundamental game is fine which he showed last year its the holes in his game that are being exposed right now that are failing him and he won’t face a competition that is as skilled at exposing said holes in the AHL (or kelowna for that matter).. i’d rather not have kabby as my 1 on a 2 on 1 and if its schenn and he does get burned i’d rather it happen this year when we are not going to win it all.. the kid gets burnt and learns how to make that never happen again..

my point is we have an opportunity to develop his game faster here than if he were to be sent down.. give the kid 5 years in the AHL (exaggeration) and when he comes up he’ll STILL have to adjust to the NHL game and get burned a few times.. we’re getting those things out of the way now

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by AkiSchennberg on Dec 21, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions

But in the AHL he’d get more icetime and a longer leash. He wouldn’t find himself benched for most of the third or see his minutes dropped to sub-10 levels. Wilson sits him because he wants to win, and Schenn isn’t always conducive to that goal.
Burke and Wilson are not going to throw close games to let Schenn get “burned a few times” so that he can learn.

They have a good system down in the AHL. Gunnarsson stepped in and didn’t look out of place at all. Stralman apparently learned enough with the Marlies to be a valuable piece for Columbus (where he’s tied with Nash at 12 pts on the PP). Oreskovic’s and Sifers’ adequate fill-in stints prove that the learning they get with the Marlies is much more important than the player’s innate abilities.

Also, he’s only 20. He’s still going to — watch yourself, wrap — mature and grow into his body. He still has to get bigger/faster/stronger. If he takes the time now to learn what to do at a slower pace, getting more speed is just a matter of off-season fitness and training. If Schenn gets to the point where he can easily handle the AHLers at 80% of speed, then all he would need to do is fill out and get the trainers to help him build the speed to handle the pros at 100% speed.

by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 21, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions

Great debate

Not sure DBL is quite as wrong as you paint. In fact, I think you’re both arguing different sides of the same coin.

Synthesis: Defense is difficult to learn, you have to anticipate rather than create, etc. Schenn has a solid understanding, but at the elite NHL level other teams have smart people dedicated to analysing your game, picking out the holes in your skill set, and strong skilled players who can be unforgiving in exploiting them.

Divergence: Presumably the Leafs can also be aware of his exploitable shortcomings (especially if they play him every so often in the NHL), but is he better off working them out with plenty of time in a “sandbox” where he can experiment in a more forgiving environment, or in the NHL which will give far more immediate and visceral feedback forcing him to do it all at top speed.

I think it depends on how close he is. If he has to learn substantive new skills, probably better to do that in the AHL. If he’s AAALMOST there, and it’s just a matter of being forced to do it all fast enough then he’s probably better off in the NHL. I leave it up to more competent observers to decide which that is though.

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by Wan Ihite on Dec 21, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions

Part of the deal with playing as a defenceman is playing time. A lot of defencemen play better the more often they play. Schenn may be one of those guys. Last year, he played a lot, and generally played well. This year, he’s not playing as often, so he finds it more difficult to get into a rhythm and so he struggles. Plus as was mentioned learning to play on the other side of the ice doesn’t help either.

Thing is, right now he’s going to have to adjust to less playing time. Barring injuries, Komi, Beauch, Kabby and White are ahead of Schenn on the depth chart, and deservedly so at this point. Schenn has to get used to playing fewer minutes and playing well with those minutes. That’s the mark of a good player, playing well in whatever role you have with whatever ice time you get.

Schenn is still young; I think he’s just 20. This is his second season. Defence is one of the positions most difficult to learn and most difficult for players to adjust to playing well at an NHL level. I do think Schenn has the ability to succeed, but there will be bumps along the way. As long as he makes an effort to improve, doesn’t get discouraged when things don’t go well, and plays as well and consistently as he can, I’m willing to ride out some of the bumpiness that is still yet to come.

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by stucky on Dec 20, 2009 8:10 PM EST reply actions

My only comment on Schenn, is I agree that I think we gave him too much leeway last season and have now taken that carrot away from him. I believe the sad state of the Leafs defense last season gave him an opportunity to stand up and be noticed. he was and realistically he was really good until he got hurt and decent to fading down the stretch. That’s when the management should have acted. Now, they gave him an off-season regiment, which knowing Luke, he probably followed it to the letter, and it’s not helping him get where he was so easily last season. Now, he gets less minutes and with the depth the Leafs have (of course not all have been stellar back there either, except maybe White whos been the most consistent back there) he won’t be getting it for awhile, the beauty is as a 20 year old defense man he can play 3rd pair minutes and develop because he won’t be hitting his defensive stride until 25.

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by blindfolded tank driver on Dec 21, 2009 8:40 AM EST reply actions

Schenn's young.

People need to give him time to hit his stride. It’s the same issue with our d-men in Dallas. Niskanen is frustrating, but the Stars are giving him time to grow.

You can’t be too impatient with young guys, especially defensemen.

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by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Dec 21, 2009 11:29 AM EST reply actions