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I LOVE DAMIEN COX

One final note. It continues to blow my mind that some insist Mats Sundin "owed" the Leafs the chance to trade him last winter and get draft picks and prospects for him.

Here’s what he owed the Leafs.

He owed them a willingness to play hard under the terms of his contract, to play through injuries, to provide solid leadership, to put points on the board and to set an example for young players. His job was to fulfill his playing contract, period.

To wallow in these ill-conceived, illogical past grievances against the player who was the team’s best for more than a decade is to demean not only him, but the franchise and the sport.

11 months ago Plate_tiny eyebleaf 365 comments 0 recs  | 

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It's official

You’ve finally completely lost your mind, saying you love Damien.

You are now officially a lost cause, and may God have mercy on your soul.

by lordosis on Feb 19, 2009 11:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the well wishes, honey

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just had hope we could keep you on the good side, but you’ve officially fully crossed over.

Break’s my heart.

by lordosis on Feb 19, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

don’t know what that little apostrophe is doing in there. whoops.

by lordosis on Feb 19, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

now I can understand that you really like what Damien said… but you should not, never, ever love him. Please recant and come back to the good side eyebeleaf!

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

when it comes to Sundin, I’ve been on the same page as him since the get go.

So, to be clear, I love him when it comes to Sundin, and only Sundin.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok

’cause one good statement does not a good columnist make….

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

indeed.

But I’m glad he’s writing what he is when it comes to Mats…asking them to show some class on Saturday night, included.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

actually...

I think the moment he lost his mind was when he bought tickets to the Battalion game tonight and decided to voluntarily go to Brampton………..

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it’s crazy, i know

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But you look like a local ;)

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am shocked — shocked! — that Damien has chosen to come down on the opposite side of most Leaf fans!

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Feb 19, 2009 11:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

just because “most” Leafs fans on this site choose to throw mud at Sundin, doesn’t mean that “most” Leafs fans in general are not on Sundin’s side.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Count me amongst the non-mud slinging contingent.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Me too.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ditto. Mats is still captain of my heart.. <3

too gay?

by LeafFanInVan on Feb 19, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably. But I’m up for a bromance when it comes to Mats.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hetero life partner!

by LeafFanInVan on Feb 19, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pissed at Mats

But I’m taking the long view. If I was at the game, I would not boo. I might cheer, but there is a greater chance I would just do nothing.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Same, I would be happy for him if they happened to make it to the cup, but I don’t think that’s a real possibility anyway.

by LeafFanInVan on Feb 19, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll be there, and plan to stand for the entire game.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pissed because Mats didn’t tell us the truth at the time he was captain of a team in the middle of a playoff race? Isn’t that setting the bar a little high? I just don’t see it; seems to me that to expect a pro athlete to answer those kinds of questions honestly – while still a member of his current team – is setting him up for failure. If he says he wants to leave, he gets ripped for waving the white flag and trashing the morale of the team. If he says he wants to stay – but then doesn’t – we call him a liar. The problem is worse for a team captain.

I think I hear what you’re saying – you wish it didn’t end that way – and I concur. It seems petty to me, though to let that incident, in the course of our breakup with Mats, sour the entire relationship the fanbase had with him. I can’t just forget all those nights when the team would come back from some deficit, get the game into overtime and you just KNEW Mats was going to will the puck in to the net somehow – and he did it. There were nights he dominated games like only one or two other Leaf players I’ve ever seen. He gets my “long view” props for that

-With all due respect to PPP and the “Fredo” thing, which is amusing but I think ultimately misguided.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry...

what team were you watching? I don’t recall any playoff race last year…not for the Leafs.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There was a race, dammit . As late as March 10th or 11th last year, we were still talking about “must win” games for the Leafs. It was an admitted long shot to get in, but the team rallied and did put a bit of a run together. I’m not saying it was truly realistic, but if I as a fan could get sucked in to rooting them on to qualify, I can’t blame the players for refusing to quit on the season.

(I remember one particular game against the Flyers around this time in March that reminded me, at the time, why I follow pro sports.)

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i remember watching that run...

and thinking how they were screwing up their draft position.

i guess distance gives you some perspective sometimes.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That screw-up (plus a couple picks) got us Mr. Schenn…

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but

If they lose a few more games, they don’t need to trade any picks to get Schenn.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or worse...

they win a few more games and we never see Schenn

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand, but you can’t fault a player for doing what players are supposed to do – trying to win games. They can’t be deciding whether or not to golf one in the net by sizing up the standings, the anticipated depth of next year’s draft, the strength of the organization’s scouting unit and the contract status of all of their team-mates. Players should play, and play to win.

As much as I want the Leafs to get a top 5 pick this year, I would permanently banish any player who even so much as thought of tanking.

It’s different for us as fans.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

With all due respect to PPP and the "Fredo" thing, which is amusing but I think ultimately misguided.

It has layers.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we should start a letter writing campaign.

let’s all start sending Mr. Cox letters and messages about how much we love the idea of building a winner. That, we love it so much, we’re going to stop going to see games. we’re not going to watch them on TV, and we’re calling for a boycott of all MLSE related merchandise.

will his head explode, or will Cox be the first one to say this is a bad idea, and we should be shelling out our hard earned dollars to support our team?

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm on board

I like being part of campaigns.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In all seriousness, if the wind was blowing the other way and Leaf fans were lining up to give Mats an ovation, does anybody doubt for a second that Cox would write a column about how we’re all suckers, we’re too easy-going, we’ll give standing ovations to guys who never won a thing, etc? Couldn’t you almost write the article for him at this point?

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Feb 19, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

absolutely.

i can’t wait for the day the Leafs win the Cup. What Cox will write on that day will be nothing short of high comedy. The headline would be something akin to “Leafs Fail to Plan for Next Year, Blow it by Winning it All This Year”

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i only say this because i love you...

but this calls for an intervention.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 11:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

can we go on the A&E show?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry eyebleaf, but we disagree
provide solid leadership

This is the part he did not fulfill. As Kaberle has shown this year by giving Burke a preferred list of teams, while acknowleding he’d still rather be a Maple Leaf, leadership comes from setting a positive example, pragmatism and maturity, doing what’s best for the team above all else, representing managements’ decisions, not disagreeing with them, not holding out against them, and certainly not deluding the rest of the dressing room into chasing childish fanatasies of being a playoff contender, under the mantra of “anything is possible”.

There’s a guy in my office who will only lift a finger when he’s contractually obligated to do so. He’s selfish, uncomprimising, stubborn, and refuses to sacrifice. Nobody calls him a leader. In fact, nobody likes him at all. He has completly the wrong attitude for company success and the last thing we want is for new employees to learn from him.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 12:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

no offense, but I have to call horse dung

Kaberle is in a completely different position. He’s under contract and can be sent anywhere this summer. Mats was not.

This is Kaberle’s one chance to control any part of his destiny. There is nothing positive about it. Pragmatic, yes. Positive, leader-like? Nothing of the sort.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

of course buddy, sundin was a terrible leader.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i love how pragmatism and maturity is agreeing to be traded.

doing what’s best for the team? your notion of pro sports is misguided. sundin was looking out for himself, which you would have done as well.

you can’t compare someone in your office to someone who plays pro sports for a living. it simply cannot be done.

up until a few months ago, you would have been one to say that sundin was one of the greatest leafs ever. it’s a shame that view has changed

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The greatest Leafs ever

1. Wendel
2. Schenn
3. Bill Berg
4. Bob Rouse
5. Felix Potvin

That is all.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah...

that’s about right

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice list Till, butu you forgot Brad Smith, Brit Selby and Howie Meeker.

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Feb 19, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

“Bob Rouse is a beautiful defenceman.”

- Dave Bidini

by Ando Rich on Feb 19, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Before the lock-out Sundin was awesome, no question. After the lock-out, he was a very good regular season player, a great marquee spokesperson, but the Leafs were a bad team with bad management. Failure and dissapointment, 3 years in a row.

The aftermath of Sundin’s leadership is a new management dedicated to irradicating and completely deconstructing the prevailing atmosphere and attitudes established over the last 3 seasons.

it’s a shame that view has changed

It certainly is. Poker has a lot to do with that too.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again, goaltending had nothing to do with those 3 seasons, right general?

the fact that the leafs couldn’t kill a mother fcukin penalty had nothing to do with it, right general?

keep picking and choosing. it’s very entertaining.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

And what do we hate the most about Andrew Raycroft? His laissez-faire attitude. As Big Julius Campbell said in Remember The Titans:

Attitude reflects Leadership.

I assume that this will leave you as stunned as it left Gerry Burtier.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hahah nice!

Speaking of Andrew, I would say the attitude in concert with him tilting and scratching his head while mentioning his record breaking season does it for me.

Oh! And he averts his eyes a lot like he wants to be somewhere else too – so did I Ray, so did I.

by Ando Rich on Feb 19, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know if Damien Cox is the guy I’d want in my corner…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 12:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow

actually…… he’s not the only one who has Damien in his corner:

Same goes for Justin Pogge. To me, the way in which the Leafs have gone about trying to develop this young goaltender has been intelligent and exemplary, with the exception of sitting him down for almost the entire AHL playoffs last spring.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea what you are talking about….

Damn you Karina!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait

Does that make Mirtle’s post yesterday correct?

They’re a Schizo-Cox for everyone…

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Strange

Cox wrote yesterday that Leafs fans should be upset that the team didn’t get any assets in return for Sundin. Am I missing something, or is Cox talking out both sides of his ass?

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

And lord knows

Cox has always praised Sundin’s leadership over the years.

“Muskoka Five”, anyone?

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Muskoka Five

Is the one thing I will give Cox props for. Remember how we were going to make T-Shirts?

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, it was hilarious, no doubt – but one of many examples of DC Talk dumping on Mats’ leadership abilities.

Total Pratt and Failure were praising Cox’s last column last night.

And then Steve Simmons came on and said Sundin should be booed for selling out the fans. I FEEL LIKE I’M TAKING CRAZY PILLS

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But...

…Mats was the leader of the Muskoka Five, and they got want they wanted (for a while anyway). That is leadership!

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pratt and Failure praise Cox a lot. This is another reason I hate them.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, Kim - did you see this?

From the Coxbag

Carlos Harvoski, Peterborough

Do you know this guy? Seems like a fake name to me…..

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 12:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Do you think Sylvia Sutherland is a Habs fan?

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Scratch that

If Sylvia needed an alias, she’d probably use Vera Duckworth or something along those lines.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

his best line

"He obviously never understood the value of Obi-Wan Kenobi agreeing to be struck down by Darth Vader in Star Wars… "

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely the best line.

by Ando Rich on Feb 19, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The way I see it...

Leafs fans have every right to be upset if they believe that Mats looked them in the eye and lied to them. On the other hand, you can give Sundin the benefit of the doubt and make a legitimate argument that Mats had every right to change his mind. I`m willing to accept this from EyeBeleaf, but not from Cox. The dude is still taking cheapshots at Tlusty more than a year after the “incident”. He’s the last one to be lecturing us about “ill-conceived, illogical past grievances.”

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

And still taking shots at Darcy Tucker. And Domi.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And Quinn, and Fletcher, and…

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And he's off on Jiri today

Tlusty made a fool of himself with his web antics last year and hasn’t blown the doors off anyone as a professional, but then suddenly he had one of those nights that make you think that eventually, he’s going to get it.

19 points in 8 games. 41 pts in 43 games.

It’s pretty funny that he likes to criticize Leafs fans for not being hockey fans due to the Marlies not drawing. What does his lack of knowledge about the Marlies say about him as a hockey journalist, m’kay?

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jiri duty?

ba-dum pish.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i am thoroughly convinced sundin was going to retire in the summer…

DGB and I will be posting about this in the coming days, of course.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I also believe that but to go back through the wringer (as I did Tuesday night with another member of Traitor Nation):

- Why say all of that BS about wanting to retire a Leaf and hammering the idea of rental players (and slamming Bourque, Selanne, and Niedermayer) if he wasn’t sure? Why not be honest if he wasn’t sure if he wanted to play anymore?
- Why not tell the other four to make their own decisions? Why sell them on staying for what the General rightly described as a ridiculous pursuit. Rumours have circled about him holding a meeting to get all of the guys to do the same thing.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cause if

the other four had waived, it would have made it tougher on him. Darcy I odubt would ever have waived, but possibly the other 3.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know

And that’s the leadership the team wanted…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so leadership is defined as agreeing to be traded?

that’s nonsense.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Leadership that actively seeks to undermine management in order to ensure that tough questions aren’t asked of him?

That’s nonsense

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

undermine management by agreeing to use a no-trade that both team and player agreed upon?

yeah, that makes a whole lot of bloody sense triple P

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you forget that...

the leafs were “under new management”

new ball game, new direction. screw what JFJ did…

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and it wasn’t Mats’ job to fix the clusterfuck that JFJ created. period.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no

it was Cliffs, and he attempted to fix it.

also, you are referring to Mats Sundin and the Muskoka 5 as a “clusterfuck”?

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he attempted, yes, but, AGAIN, it wasn’t Mats’ job to do what Cliff wanted him to do.

It was Mats’ job to go out there and play at a bloody high level, and he did that every god damn day.

you’re just bitter because you couldn’t get what you wanted. cry me a river.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Signed contract.

It didn’t have a “screw what JFJ did clause”.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ummmm…Fletcher didn’t give him shit.

He undermined the current management by not only refusing to play ball but also by getting the others not to.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes. Sundin must have went around and told others not to accept a trade out of town.

riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

and, again, using his no-trade clause is not undermining management. THEY EFFING GAVE IT TO HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

if you want to be pissed, be pissed about what he said to the media. but this horseshit about underminding management is just that; HORSESHIT

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Leadership is doing what you’re told….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or so I’ve been told, and I must accept this or else I am not a leader….

So complex….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Leadership

is doing the right thing for the greater good.

What was that last year?

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh my god give me a god damn break.

the greater good?

this is pro sports, bud. you need to remember that these guys are all about themselves.

the greater good does not exist. only us fans think of the “greater good”

you’re living in some fairytale like world if you believe that shit

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yet...

You still believe that Mats did what he did out of some internal conflict instead of just deciding that he wanted to be comfortable.

Who’s living in fantasyland?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you and blurr are.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BWAHAHAHAHA

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that was a good one, eh?

i’m done. all sundin-defended out.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps its part of the Canadian condition, but I think that if someone asks you to leave, you should probably leave.

by Ando Rich on Feb 19, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hahaha

That reminds me of a joke I read in The Star:

Q: How do you get 50 Canadians out of a pool?
A: You make an announcement asking all Canadians to get out of the pool.

I guess in Sweden you’d have to convince them that they want to keep swimming in another pool.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I laughed because I thought you were making a joke. :(

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

making a point/making a joke

you pretty much nailed it…

we’re classic!

by Ando Rich on Feb 19, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Leadership is doing the right thing for the greater good.

This is what I’ve come to realize.

remember that these guys are all about themselves

You learn by example. I think some players might see the tribute nights for Wendel and Dougie, see the other names on the banners, see the logo on their uniform, and realize that they are just a part of something much bigger then they are, and realize that care needs to be taken to ensure that future generations will achieve the same levels of success. You pass on your accomplishments to the next generation, or it all unravels and then their isn’t a next generation.

Mostly I blame JFJ for the disgrace that the Leafs became at the end of last season, but I don’t think it’s unfair to say that a Captain should be thinking of the greater good.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no

but Mats went around saying that the team could make the playoffs, so why would anyone else accept a trade when your captain believes that?

Also, read Proteau’s article. NTCs are also used so that if there is a situation where the player will be traded, he can choose where to go. To outright refuse to be traded is a bit much. He could’ve taken the same stance as Kubina and Kabby t his year – if the team doesn’t want me here, I’ll wave the NTC. And when Fletcher asked him to waive, it was the equivalent of saying “Your time with the Leafs has finished”.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Two things

Retirement was on his mind. His time was likely finished anyway.

He also talked to Salming, who told him that his greatest regret was not retiring a Leaf. He mentioned it at the time.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

And he is not going to retire as a Leaf is he?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, he's not

Things changed over the summer.

Personally, I think that if this season is it for Mats, he’ll regret having gone to Vancouver.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and that matters only because he said he wanted to?

like i said, it’s the first time anyone’s ever changed their mind. it’s the first time a pro athlete has “lied.”

let’s throw everything out the window. yes. that makes sense.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Look, no one is saying that you can’t change your mind. The problem is when you know you’re not certain and you lead people on with your statements. Why would it have been so hard to just say that he had no fucking clue what he wanted to do?

Who would have suffered in that scenario? Mats Sundin. Because then the questions would have continued. Instead he gave a ‘definitive’ answer that he could trot out whenever he got asked what he was thinking.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DGB has pointed this out on number of occasions.

it was a PR disaster from the get-go.

We all know Sundin messed up. He knows it too.

But to continue to hold it against him? come on

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

then

what better than to come into TO on Saturday and state that very fact. As far as I know, he hasn’t said anything about messing up. He’s just gone along and done whatever he wants.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because if he’s POed at the Leafs over anything, he’s not the type to throw people under the bus.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sundin will do nothing but say how he loved his time in Toronto, and loved the fans, the city, etc. And I will believe it.

What I don’t get is that it was OK for us to trade him, he said no, but then it’s not ok for him to go sign elsewhere, even though we’re rebuilding and we want to tank for tavares.

where’s the logic?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re missing the point and I am not sure if you are doing it intentionally. It’s never been a problem that he signed somewhere else.

The problem is that he said he never wanted to play anywhere else, he didn’t believe in rental players, and he was going to retire a Leaf.

6 months on he’s playing on the team that offered him the most money.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

if you were in his position 6 months later, and decided that you wanted to play after you were sure you’d retire, you’d probably have gone to vancouver as well. where he knows the swedish cats, where he knows they have the best goalie in the world, and where he is, of course, getting paid the most dollars.

but you’ll tell me you would have signed a league minimum salary with detroit, because, of course, that is exactly what you would have done.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Depends. Is my goal to win a Stanley Cup or go somewhere else where I can be comfortable?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no logic

it’s pure emotion that is dictating that response. Mats is pretty much the reason I became a Leafs fan. He told me he wouldn’t be a rental, that he wanted to bring the cup here, and that he wanted to retire as a Leaf.
How do I not get upset and irrational at that?

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you can be upset and irrational at that.

but that doesn’t mean you throw out the other 13 years of his life in toronto out the window.

you don’t think i was upset? i’ve physically fought with ppl who didn’t support this guy. i have defended him from the haters for years.

i was upset as shit.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

but just because you’ve gotten over it doesn’t mean you should expect everyone else to.

July 1, when I heard of the offer the Canucks made to Sundin, I was raging mad.
When I heard the speculation that he was going to the Rangers, I was saddened.
When he signed with the Canucks, I wanted to cry.
When i see him playing for the Canucks, I am filled with joy because I love him so much.
But it doesn’t mean that I’m over him leaving the Leafs in the manner he did.
Now, I am not sure if I would boo him or cheer him, but your raging against people who’ve coped with the situation in a manner other than yours is confounding.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree, it is confounding, and that’s because i can’t understand how ppl can be so mad at him, after all he did for this city and for this team. it just doesn’t make sense to me.

and that’s why it angers me. it drives me batshit to see the mud that is slung on this guy for going out there and doing his job, playing hard every night.

and it speaks to a larger issue to me. if we can trade him, great, sundin’s a hero. but if not, sundin’s a bastard because he didn’t do what we wanted him to.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because we love the team not the player.

The players change but the fans remain.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

this is what it comes down to for me. I still haven’t completely separated the two, which is why I have no idea what I want to do. But eyebeleaf has clearly decided that he has unconditional love for Sundin, while many others have conditions on that love. You can’t force them to feel any differently.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Love the team but not the player?

No.

I don’t.

Can’t separate the two. I don’t cheer for the laundry. This team is made up of the players on it. Even though those players change over time, there is continuity there.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m having a very difficult time thinking of a significant number of players who left the Leafs on the kind of terms we’d all hope for.

Teeder Kennedy.

Armstrong, sort of.

Wendel v3.0

hmmmm…..

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bingo

That’s what my entire post on the day he signed was about.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and my point today, months later, is get the fuck over it and show the man the respect he deserves when he comes back.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He can have it when he offers an explanation or until his number gets honoured. Until he retires I’ll hate every stride he takes.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Curiosity

What would make for a satisfactory explanation?

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anything

Literally anything sincere.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My suspicion

Is that he was royally POed at the way things were handled. This took the Leafs out of the running for the ‘comeback’. However, to admit to that is effectively to throw rocks at the Leafs and Fletcher, and I don’t think he’ll do that.

Plus, he wanted to play and the Leafs weren’t all that into him.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

I get the feeling that he’s trying to be loyal to the Leafs and not reveal how he feels he was treated. He’s letting us all make our own conclusions about the situation, and I believe he’s willing to take the boos to treat management honourably. Which, in a way shows more loyalty to the organization than perhaps it deserves. But if Mats can do that, why can’t fans allow other fans to feel differently than they do?

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

interesting...

you’re allowed to go on hunches, but those that disagree with you are not.

fascinating stuff.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why not?

If you were a chick (yes, that is where I am going with it) and some guy whispered sweet nothings in your ear about the future and how he wants to be with you for all-time and so you give it up to him and then he turns around and says:

You know, on second thought, I don’t owe you anything. I did my job, you can just take it.

How long until you got over it?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again, i just don’t see the point in comparing this to real life scenarios. it just doesn’t work that way.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But then you compare it to people changing their mind or people not wanting to leave their job (well, 1967ers did).

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your presumption

Is that the sweet nothings were a lie.

That is not my presumption.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we’re rebuilding. we want to suck it up for tavares.

sundin said no to a trade. fine.

but he can’t sign anywhere but with us, even tho we are rebuildign?

where’s the logic?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ummm, you completely missed the point of the anecdote. The team essentially gave it up to him based on his whispered sweetness and then he pulled an about face.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

of course i missed the point, bro

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he did

He said he wanted to retire a Leaf and he didn’t like the idea of being a rental. He also said he didn’t know about playing this year.

What we don’t have is the reason why he changed his mind about a number of those things. Some assume this means he was dishonest at the time. I assume that something changed after he said that.

Odds are we will never know because unless there’s a book deal 15 years from now, nobody will tell us.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I call shenanigans.

Triple P, the questions didn’t “stop” when he said what he said. Mats gained nothing personally by staying loyal to his team-mates in the room, except their respect. How can you begrudge him that?

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he can begrudge him for not accepting to leave, and making PPP happy in the process

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I am a fan of the Leafs and I pay to see them make me happy.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he gained any marginal respect from his teammates then good for him. What they saw was a captain that preferred comfort to a championship.

There’s a reason that Burke and Fletcher have done their damndest to empty the dressing room of his cohorts. You guys can hide behind 13 years of great hockey but to deny the rot over the past three seasons is as blind as if I tried to say that Sundin’s moves erased any memory of the past which I have never done.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think he lied at all

I think it was true when he said it, but after the way things played out, his desire to keep playing (eventually) and the lack of interest from the Leafs, he wound up where he wound up.

If you ask me today whether I’m leaving my job, it’s an unequivocal no.

Something could happen an hour from now to change all that. Doesn’t mean I’m lying now.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that’s exactly what Cox, and I, have said.

things change. circumstances change.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What circumstances changed between Fletcher’s hiring and when he signed with the Canucks?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he decided he wanted to continue playing.

and he decided to play on a team that clearly doesn’t suck

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So....

He either wanted to play for a team that sucked before he changed his mind or he felt it was dishonourable to get traded to a team for a couple of months because he was going to retire?

But then, magically, he decided that he wanted to keep playing so he could shift his values and beliefs to suit his desire. Now joining a team mid-season was a-ok because he was doing it! Now retiring a Leaf wasn’t that important because Vancouver wanted him!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not my business, pls don't shoot me...

but unfortunately he didn’t magically decide… If I remember right it took him about a century to decide whether he wants $10 million play or not.

Как же так может быть?

by sleza on Feb 19, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that doesn’t change the fact that one he changed his desires he changed his beliefs.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

because the Canucks wanted him

and the leafs didn’t….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

1. When he decided he wanted to play again, there was nothing (that we know of) from the Leafs.
2. When Burke was hired, one of his first actions was to state that the Leafs would not be making Sundin an offer. Now – he put this on Mats, by saying “I don’t think we’re what he’s looking for.” But there was no offer.
3. We have no idea what was said privately after the season. Berger (I know) said that what he was picking up from Fletch was a complete lack of interest.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But at the core from the moment of Fletcher’s hiring Mats Sundin knew that he wasn’t part of the Leafs’ future.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If he was retiring, he wasn’t part of the future anyway….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, so why not leave?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

because he didn’t have to

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In reality, the NTC is meant to be a negotiating tool that allows the player virtual control and power over where he plays. And as Kaberle and McCabe and many others have demonstrated, it is often waived when the right deal comes along for all parties.

I don’t think it’s really meant to be held on to with stubborn refusal, and if players keep doing that, GMs are going to be less inclined to give them out.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

those guys have careers in front of them.

at that point in time, sundin didn’t know whether he did or not.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But he DID choose where he played.

He played here.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The good news is that Burke won’t be giving them out.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yes

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hadn’t heard about that last point before. If that’s true, I may have to reconsider my decision to not boo the television on Saturday night.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

It’s obviously a rumour but I’ve heard it from a couple of people now.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you know people?

PPP – Bill Watters

O RLY?

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hahahaha

But I like Cliff Fletcher…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think the fact of a meeting is as important as the reason behind it, and that is something we don’t have.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

By the same token

From what I heard, the room took the position of the M5 and Mats in particular as a real shot in the arm.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

A bunch of dummies got tricked by their best players into believing in the impossible dream. Not that it mattered much in the end anyway.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your preference is a bunch of guys who say, “We suck, we’re out of it, get me out of here on the next bus?”

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Last year, yes.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You need to cheer for the Sens, then….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

Are you saying what I think you’re saying?

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That they quit and bail when times are tough? Yes.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha

I thought you were trying to kick me out of Leaf Nation…

It isn’t that I wanted them to give up. I just would have preferred for Mats, Darcy, and McCabe to be trying their hardest for other teams last March and April.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Which they could only have done by giving up on their current team….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting way to look at it.

I don’t see how it can be considered giving up on your team if the people who run your team are asking you to go for the good of your team.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

These guys weren’t being asked to unilaterally quit and ask to be moved.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, not exactly

For a player to leave his team-mates – the guys he’s worked all year with – regardless of whether he’s asked by management to go or not, he’s quitting on other guys in the room by leaving them behind to flounder and fail.

That’s why I keep saying the Sundin haters are holding him to too high a standard because you’re judging him by what he said at the time (retire as a Leaf, etc.) when he really had no alternative, as the captain, to remain loyal to his mates and loyal to his team by either making a miracle run in to the playoffs or going down with the ship. To say, “you’re right, those guys in the room suck, we won’t make it, I’m out of here” is a failure of leadership.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

brilliantly put. this wasn’t just a roster player being asked to abandon his team, it was the captain.

by daoust on Feb 19, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he’s quitting on other guys in the room by leaving them behind to flounder and fail.

Flounder and fail until the end of one lost season? Big deal. What about Stajan, Kaberle, Antropov, and Ponikarovsky all floundering and failing for the next 2 years after? What about the careers of players that have several years left?

To say, "you’re right, those guys in the room suck, we won’t make it, I’m out of here" …

… and leave them with nothing to help them get back to being a better team is a failure of leadership.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree.

He’s not Jesus of Stockholm, he’s a hockey player. It’s not his job to look after everybody else’s future and career. It was his job, as captain of that team – that collection of guys in that dressing room – to do his damndest to win games with them.

The “team” is the guys who are in the room right now at any given moment. Period. Sundin can’t and couldn’t control or predict who would follow (or precede) him out of town. All he could do was look around the room and say to the group of guys who had started the season together that “we are in this together.”

That’s the leadership any player in that room would want from their captain. What you wanted from him as a fan – from a long term perspective – is different.

I choose to evaluate his performance as a player based on what he did as a player, rather than what I – as a fan – wanted him to say and do. Based on his performance on the ice and his overall long-term contribution to the team, I say he doesn’t deserve to be booed.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

we do have the right to change our minds…

now i sound like Cox!

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

for the return of...

Jeff Freaking Carter
Chris Higgins

and a few other names that escape me. plus draft picks.

Yes and Yes

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Except that was Kaberle. And Fletcher made the deal before asking him if he’d waive. Whose fault is that?

And I can’t say I’m missing Higgins.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Higgins with Carter would have been an absolute joy to watch.

I mean, ya Moore and Blake are the next Gretzky and Kurri, I know, but still…

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

as far as who's fault...

if the rumours of a “fall in line” meeting are true, I’d say it’s Sundin’s fault.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Timing?

You can’t base ‘fault’ on a meeting that exists only in rumours.

You have management giving out the NTCs like they’re candy. You have Fletcher trying to trade guys without their prior consent or despite their stated preferences.

Pretty clear to me who I blame.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

of course it’s Sundin’s fault.

unbelievable!!!!

this is fun. keep the ridiculous comments coming, boys.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ridiculous?

YOU SAID THAT YOU LOVE DAMIEN COX!

I am making sure that goes on your tombstone.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i’ll be cremated, but thanks for looking out, anyways.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The urn can be engraved.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sundin was directly responsible for the hiring of JFJ, Richard Peddie and Paul Maurice.

Of course it’s his fault.

Sundin also made sure that Bernie Parent jumped to the WHA and that the Leafs sent a rejection letter to a 12-year-old Bobby Orr.

It’s a conspiracy, I tells ya.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who handed out the no-trades?

and it’s Sundin’s fault.

my keeps exploding.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who here doesn’t hate JFJ? Show of e-hands.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

then i don’t to hear that it’s mats’ fault. that’s complete fudging lunacy

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But it IS Mats’ fault. Had he left as a free agent years ago, none of this would have ever happened!

Hell, had he simply stayed in Quebec, we might have drafted Stamkos!

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you know that a problem can be the fault of more than one person?

I know, it stunned me too when I found out.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

your sarcasm is hilarious, bro. keep it coming

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would have stopped if you had asked ;)

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No

My preference are players that buy into management’s plans. I want good soldiers that execute a good general’s plans.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't

Never been a pure management guy. I like people who can think.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

like...

Kabby? Being told what to do by Mats?

Or, do you mean the pro athlete who takes 6 months to make a decision?

Or, the guy who listens to the fans, tells them what they want to hear, and then “changes his mind?”

good free-thinkers. love ’em.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Evidence?

Other than “a guy I know said someone told him that he’d heard that Kaberle’s a puppet.”

‘Cepting now he’s mature and all that.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who said he’s mature now? sure as heck wasn’t me…

Kabby’s a quiet go with the flow type of guy. not a leader. not a free thinker.

if he wants to stay a Leaf, and there’s a very good chance he will, why the list?

doesn’t matter. I agree to disagree with you all. Mats was a great Leaf, not the greatest, but he’s up there. I still think he screwed over the organization by putting himself first, which you all agree he did.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The general did.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I did. I think he has matured. The fact that he’s still here, holding his head up high, contiributing to the team, staying out of trouble (with the exception of being benched for one period), and seems to have adapted to Wilson’s system enough to lead the team in ice time most nights, and is still saying all the right things to the media… I think he was always mature, but I think he’s matured even more. The past year has been hard, and he’s survived.

My personal feeling on Kaberle is not only should they keep him, but they should lock him up too with a contract extension for 4 more years and maybe even make him the Captain.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agree

with everything about Kabby except I don’t think he’s Captain material; he seems to shy away from at least the public part of the responsibility that comes with being Captain of the Leafs.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Feb 19, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ummm

Other than the fact that 6 months on both Kubina and Kaberle are now willing to waive their no-trade clauses and provide lists of teams that they would be willing to join?

That’s pretty strong circumstantial evidence that there was some influence wielded.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, no

It’s pretty strong circumstantial evidence that both can be traded without their consent this coming summer – and if they want any say whatsoever in their future endeavours, they’d better come up with a list and do it pronto.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i absolutely enjoy your bitterness. it’s a beautiful thing. so god damn petty.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not bitter...

but i am pretty. :)

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not bitter?

read the comments you’ve dropped in here again.

it’s typical of Leafs fans. love em until they don’t give you what you want, and then burn ’em at the stake.

it’s one thing if we were talking about Raycroft. But we’re talking about Mats God damn Sundin. It’s sad.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

SLASH AND BURN!

Ummm maybe it’s because Sundin left in a similar fashion to the other guys that have been villified of late.

I don’t hear too many people doing this to guys like Steen and Carlo…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah cuz they were the highest scoring leafs, ever. they really matter.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Doug Gilmour, Wendel Clark, and on and on…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gilmour begged to leave. But, of course, that doesn’t matter an inch to you.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

With the shit that management was giving him? Nope. It doesn’t.

That actually highlights a big difference between the two. In both cases management was dismantling the team. One guy wanted to leave to win somewhere else and the other talked his buddies into staying.

Is that fair? Probably not but fuck it I AM GODDAMNED PISSED OFF AT MATS RIGHT NOW.

Later? Probably not.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

in 10 years, after Mats has retired and the Leafs have become competative again, if this site is still running, PPP will write the best tribute to Mats Sundin the world has ever seen.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

really...?

cuz despite all reasons to the contrary, I still love Darcy Tucker.

I love Kabby, and will even if he gets traded.

I still loved Mats up until he decided that everything he ever said was a lie. That he’d rather be a rental player, and not retire a Leaf. That pissed me off. It’s his right to change his mind. It’s my right to not follow blindly wherever he goes because he once whispered sweet nothings about loving the team.

Make no mistake, that list of top leafs would include Mats if he’d stuck to his word.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i don’t give a shit what he said about rental players, and loving the team and the city.

if you think toronto doesn’t mean anything to sundin, you’re only fooling yourself. i believe he did enjoy his time here.

i love and respect him for what he did in the uniform we all adore. all those years. it ended badly, as most things do, but that doesn’t mean all is forgotten.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t care about values and beliefs. I believe that they should shift to suit your desires.

Thou Shalt Not Kill? Well, that asshole deserved it.

Thou Shalt Not Steal? Well, I can’t really be bothered to pay for it.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Once he decided to play again, is there any evidence the Leafs made a real effort to get him? Or even a cursory one?

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no. everything is based on assumptions.

my belief that he was a minute or two from retiring is an assumption.

ppp’s belief that he kept other guys from waving is an assupmtion.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

People just need to give this some time.

Gilmour was run out of this town. Despite what you read here, Wendel wasn’t universally loved when he was with the Leafs. Mahovalich was thought of as lazy.

In five or ten years when the Leafs are in the thick of things, Mats will come back to see his #13 put up in the rafters and people will, by and large, recall his accomplishments as a Leaf, not the ugly way he left.

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Feb 19, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That will definitely happen

Dougie gets off a little light considering how he whined his way off the team,

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a little!?!?!?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's true

right now we’re all very conflicted.
For my entire fanhood of the Leafs, Mats defined what it means to be a Leaf. The greatest Leaf I’ve ever seen play. My heart belonged to him, and the Leafs, because the two were one.
Now, I’m completely conflicted. I have no idea where I fall on this argument, because this is the first year I’ve ever had to separate my love for the Leafs from my love for Mats.
Once I get over that difficult emotional connection, I’ll remember my love for Mats and be able to reconcile however he left the Leafs with his great 13 years as a Leaf. But right now, I have no idea what I want, all I know is that the man who made me fall in love with the Leafs has left them after stating he wanted to retire as one.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

another pipe dream.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I even got over Darcy Tucker already. Read it: good riddance.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Feb 19, 2009 12:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I named my dog after him

Tucker the wiener dog>>>>>Tucker the fading winger

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They’re both pretty yappy.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, it’s ON

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hell Yeah!

Send yer dog after me. I’ve got a couple cats that will lay waste to him.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love to tape that

Tucker takes your dogs like Andre beating on two jobbers back in the day.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d just like to point out that I mis-read Godd’s reply as “I would love to tap that”.

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Feb 19, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dear God.

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A weiner dog is not my type of dog. They’re just not….terriers.

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Feb 19, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Terriers are my favourite breed. Cute, cuddly, easy dogs to feed.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For once, I agree with Damien.

by WildWolfdog on Feb 19, 2009 12:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

But Damien doesn’t even agree with Damien.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For once I agree with one version of SchizoCox, there are so many that I’ll resonate with something they say eventually.

by WildWolfdog on Feb 19, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

It’s hard to completely avoid the stain of agreeing with him…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And what the heck happened to Steve-nojustcallmeRichard-Simmons? He hasn’t said anything stupid in a while. Then again I’d have to read his articles in the first place.

by WildWolfdog on Feb 19, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d like to think he smartened up after we gave him the MOY at Cox Bloc last year. Something has happened to him.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I couldn’t resist – my take is here, complete with Cox’s contradictory take on things back when Cliff Fletcher was hired: http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com/2009/02/you-dont-need-weather-man-to-know-which.html

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Feb 19, 2009 1:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Time to lighten the mood:

"Leading by Example" — This is the inspirational story of Mats Sundin and his valiant efforts to keep his Muskoka Five teammates from having to endure a couple of months in a posh hotel in a new city.

Just kidding. It’s actually a nice story:

"Leading by Example" — This is the inspirational story of Master Seaman Dale Shewchuck of the Canadian Armed Forces and his journey to help Curtis Caron, a partially paralyzed nine year old hockey player from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.

 

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 1:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

PEOPLE, PEOPLE

Can’t you see? This is tearing us apart! We’re playing right into Damien’s hands.

Everyone repeat three times:

In Wendel I trust
Ottawa sucks
Schenn is godlike
Damien is dumber than a bag of farts
The Cup will come

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 1:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

there’s got to be something about Mats in there, sorry.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

why?

Mats is a Canuck now. we’re talking about the Leafs.

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wendel never played for any other team, right?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure if this is what you're asking...

One of the things that dogged Wendel when he was here was that he played for “the other team” if you know what I mean…

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Feb 19, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,

But Wendel came back.

Twice.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

your shortsightedness is laughable.

this is why people hate leafs fans.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re taking this love for Cox way too far now…

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

really...?

i’m the problem?

whatever dude…

"We’re looking forward to building the type of team the Rangers are able to buy."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Feb 19, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love Leafs and former Leafs that aren’t currently playing in the NHL.

Which category does Mats fall into?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why I won't be cheering Saturday

To me, all this Mats stuff is a little pointless. If he had of waived last year, I would have been excited about the return. If he had of stayed and lead us the playoffs, I would have loved that, and idolized him even more. Unfortunately, neither of those things happened, and the Leafs got the worst scenario. Sundin then changed his mind, that’s fine. I personally wish he would have retired, but he didn’t. I also wish he wouldn’t have “lied” or changed his mind, but he did. Whoopdedoo.

I however, will not be cheering him, because I don’t cheer for any opponent. There are players I like around the league, for a variety of reasons. Ovie, because he does things I’ve never seen before, and has the excitement in him I wish all players had. Others, because they’ve represented Canada so well over the years (i.e. Doan, Smyth, Yzerman, Sakic, etc). None of these players however, would be cheered when they came to MLG or the ACC. They are the enemy then. I can cheer for them against any other team, but not against the Leafs.

I personally will save the Sundin love until he either A) becomes a Leaf again, or B) retires. Then I’ll cheer him heartily anytime he sets foot in the ACC again.

I wouldn’t boo, just because I save booing for players I loathe. And I really don’t think anybody here loathes Sundin. It’s like a girlfriend that breaks up with you, no matter how much she hurt you there will always be some feelings for her. I will only ever boo the people who I never want to see put a Leafs uniform on (i.e. Alfreddson). And hell, even if they somehow become Leafs I’d probably change my mind. I know I did a bit with Peca (though I didn’t really loathe him, just dislike him). Hell, I didn’t like Burke until his name was brought up originally.

So boo, cheer, do whatever you want to do. I’ll be treating Sundin no different than any other Canuck on Saturday, meaning I hope Schenn pastes him with the biggest open ice hit I’ve ever seen.

by lordosis on Feb 19, 2009 1:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think he deserves a cheer on his first shift, and then he’s a Canuck.

Who’d better not score the winner in OT, despite the Leafs needing the loss.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that was Cox’s argument. Show him some respect at the get-go, and from there on out, he’s a Canuck, treat him like any other Canuck.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just out of curiousity

For those of you in the know, did Dougie or Wendel get cheers or boos or neither in their return(s) as visitors?

by lordosis on Feb 19, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can find Dougie’s return on Youtube. IIRC, no boos.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

Lots and lots of cheers

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and they do a big presentation and charity donation on Doug’s behalf. I wonder what MLSe will do this time.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Soo...

Will you boo Sundin louder than whichever goalie you put in gets yanked by the end of the first that night?

…Just warming up friends!

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Leafs goalies tend to get pulled in games against teams that can score. There is a better chance of Toskala getting pulled because he falls asleep watching the Canucks cycle around the corner for 20 minutes.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s hypnotic really. Think of it as mental warfare.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hope you didn’t get heard climbing back on the bandwagon with the rest of Vancouver last week.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Better Question

Do you think Leafs fans will be as hard on Sundin as Canucks fans were two weeks ago.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t get heard no. But no worries I don’t like Sundin at all. His best benefit is he seems to have woken up Kesler and for that I’m thankful.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

HURT!

Dammit, you know what he was talking about.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no no no no!

don’t get pulled into that well of deceit from Canucks fans…. just let it go!!!!

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And see?

Now we know you are married to one of the deceitful crew!

…one of us, one of us, one of us…

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, but he is also married to her, and we are more places than you can possibly be!

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 19, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no

lol… dammit…. are you my husband?

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m outnumbered, what, 400 to one here? I’ll use whatever I got! But I’m not on the Sundin bandwagon at all. For the record (straightens tie, grunts)

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Outnumbered like Canucks fans are in GM Place when the Leafs visit, or like how there are about 40x more Leafs fans nationwide?

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Both

Though I’m so used to more Ranger fans than anything else. And if that’s the case I can only hope Leafs fans aren’t as fat as they are. A portly bunch without question.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope you didn’t go to all this trouble just to bring some “maybe Leafs fans are like Rangers fans” smack.

I award you no points, and may Wendel have mercy on your soul.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Aww, no points?

And to think I even put pants on to wander into the PPP area.

Don’t worry sir, I’m enjoying the free flow of ideas between all of you, though saddened that poor Wellwood is not brought up as a potential target.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s earmarked for tomorrow.

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We’re sharpening our harpoons!

Ba-dum-tish

by LeafFanInVan on Feb 19, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no no

we don’t need to target Wellwood, Vigneault does that for us.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Diabetes has him square in the sites already

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 19, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also the Japanese, for “research”

by LeafFanInVan on Feb 19, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But he’s such a huge target!

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You wore pants?

That’s basically frowned upon here.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well,

they can be worn ‘unusually’….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh god

we’re so busy fighting with ourselves, I don’t wanna see the all-out war that will start on Saturday night.
But nevermind.
I’ll have a front row seat at home….

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

THIS SUNDIN THINK IS TEARING US APART!

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 19, 2009 2:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I know :(

I think it’s an outward expression of the internal battle we’re all fighting. Or at least I am.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

too late. it’s torn us apart.

my apologies to anyone i’ve offended with my ridiculous comments. as karina said, it’s truly unconditional love, and it makes me do and say stupid shit.

so, to those i’ve offended, my most sincere apologies.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you get offended talking sports you shouldn’t like sports. Dummy.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you all so crazy, dont ever change

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 19, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i can be a bit of a douche on this issue. just a bit.

it’s highly emotional.

but this is why i love everyone here, and this site. it’s where we can talk about shit. and debate. and fight.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and make

NSFW Tlusty comments….

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it's OK

I understand the emotion, that’s pretty much how I am for things most of the time. I’m just horribly confused about this whole issue and having the two sides be raging like they are is no help.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also

to let you in a little deeper, I think I’ve decided that I love Sundin no matter what, but my husband is a Canucks fan so he says that if I love Sundin than I must be a Canucks fan too, so this also contributes to my continued confusion.
I just need him to retire so I can love him without any strings attached.

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it’s hard to believe he’s gone, really. b/w all the fighting amongst us leafers, i haven’t thought about it much. but i’ve been enjoying watching canucks games online. he looks like he’s having fun out there, playing with Kesler and Demitra. i just want him to be happy.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I miss him

and all this talk makes me want to cry.
Seeing him playing in another uniform breaks my heart while at the same time I’m happy for him.
It’s like that first love that you never really got over……………………

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sundin

is a friggin’ liar. Simple as that; there’s no disputing it. Boo away.

by AlecB on Feb 19, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

wonderful insight

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

?

What else needs to be said?

by AlecB on Feb 19, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nothing. that’s why I said, “wonderful insight.”

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In that case,

thank you.

Leafs fans have a right to be upset when lied to.

by AlecB on Feb 19, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh i completely disagree with you, but that’s not the point.

he lied to you. he didn’t lie to me.

but, hey, that’s me. i unconditionally love that bald, swedish man. and i will defend his honour until i die.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To me a lie is when you make up a story about something you actually did, not what you may or may not do. Situations change, so to say someone is a liar because he said he wouldn’t do something and then he goes and does it is perhaps technically correct but it isn’t quite in the paint the guy as a liar vein..

by LeafFanInVan on Feb 19, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But....

If a Christian tells you that their belief is that there should be no sex before marriage and then he gets drunk and finds an acceptably good looking woman to seduce doesn’t that make them a liar?

No?

You’re right. Hypocrite is the word I am looking for.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now

If people were on him for hypocrisy, I’d be arguing a lot less.

The word “lie” irks me because I think it’s simply wrong.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just pretend that we meant hypocrisy this entire time then we’re right.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Never said I wouldn't argue at all

Just less…. :)

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

because

it’s really only hypocrisy if he CONTINUES to say it despite having done it and offers no mea culpas about his own actions.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

offers no mea culpas about his own actions.

Well there we go.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And continues to say the rest of it.

no selective editing….

:)

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well

At that point he’s just compromising his morals to justify his actions so it’s something just as bad but not hypocrisy per se.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We need a new term.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DAMN!

I can’t believe I missed all this over lunch. Sorry for leaving you alone in here, eyebeleaf.

I hate to say it, but Damien’s 100% right about Sundin. Even a blind squirrel finds the odd nut. As a reminder, if you’re in the anti-Sundin camp, that puts you in cahoots with Don Cherry and PJ (laughing)Stock. I’ll take Damien over those two turds.

What was the supposed deal for Sundin last year anyway? Higgins and a first? What has Higgins done this year? Would that deal really have changed the course of this rebuild significantly? And didn’t anyone else get the impression that Mats would have come back here this year if Burke would have him?

I just found out I get to be at the game Saturday. Fucking right. I’ll have my Mats jersey on, and I’ll be on my feet cheering for him. I may also have to make a sign that lets Mats know the cool kids still love him, and that the boobirds are mentally challenged.

by daoust on Feb 19, 2009 2:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

daoust. i’ll be at the game too. in my sundin jersey. i gotta buy you a beer.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

damn you people

I’ve still never been to a Leafs game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve been spoiled. My old job at the bank meant I usually got to see 2 or 3 games a year from the Golds (does that disqualify me as a real fan? The seats were ‘corporate’, and I was wearing a tie at the game. ). And the last 5 or 6 years I’ve been able to score reasonably priced tix for 2 or 3 games a year from a couple of friends whose families have season tix (purples and greens). It’s not as hard to get tix as people say, and there are definitely plenty of ‘real’ hockey fans that have access to season’s tix.

by daoust on Feb 19, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I paid out the ass for these seats. and they’re God damn purples. Craigslist will do that.

But, if there’s one game I had to be at, it’s this one.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I defended his right to stay. Several times, in public, on Cox Bloc.

What I am pissed about

“The whole journey” no.
“Not about the money” no.
“Wants to win a Cup” not on that (#*#&ing team, no.

He has a right to change his mind, I have a right to say he lied.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember that epic post…“Keep Sundin.”

I loved that shit.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I meant every word. And based on what transpired since, I’m pissed. Anyhow, I wouldn’t boo, but I doubt I’d cheer. Not yet, anyhow.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

It’s the boo-birds who really irk me. To know that you wouldn’t boo brings me some joy.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Boo-birds bug me to some degree because it just reeks of groupthink.

by LeafFanInVan on Feb 19, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly. i can totally understand people being emotional about Sundin leaving, and maybe being a little bit upset. but to boo one of the best and classiest leaf players of all time is total bush league mob mentality. if he gets booed badly it’s going to be really embarrassing.

by daoust on Feb 19, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about if I am the guy that starts the booing?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Silence would be the worst thing, eyebleaf. Could you imagine no one reacts at all to Sundin’s presence? Just awkward silence? That’d be even harder. The boos let him know we still care.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i’m going to be there, so there will be no silence, that’s for sure.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team...

by eyebleaf on Feb 19, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome. It does make me happy that there are fans like you who will cheer for him, because he does deserve it, but there’s a lot of emotions involved and they should all be represented.

I cheered for him at the Festival Cup. I really wanted him to come back to Toronto. Going to Vancouver is a huge dissapointment. PokerSluts is just embarrassing.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Though I can’t think of any commercial he did that really wowed me.

The soup thing wasn’t really worth writing home about.

Was he in something with Gretzky?

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That one was OK.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The one where he slams that douchebag into the glass.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

who looks kinda lke Jason Spezza

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 19, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

that one was the best for sure.

by daoust on Feb 19, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Best

“I hate you Maple Leafs! You remind me of Mats Sundin! You’re de wurst Leafs on d’earth!”

Brilliant.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

vaguely familiar

Need to see it on youtube

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There it is. Just above you.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Does that include the glass-slamming? That’s the one I want to see….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, just the gardener.

by general borschevsky on Feb 19, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

whole journey – no, but a lot longer than a rental who joins in March. If the canucks make the playoffs, i suspect Mats will have been a big factor, which is all Mats wanted.

Money? he probably would have taken less in Toronto if Brian Burke would have offered.

Van has a better chance than we do this year. I guess unless Mats signed with Boston, Detroit or San Jose, he’d just be a sellout chasing a paycheque?

by daoust on Feb 19, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No

He would have been chasing a Stanley Cup because none of those teams could come close to coming within sniffing distance of Vancouver’s offer.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was very surprised it wasn't Detroit

Though they weren’t ever really in the running, I don’t think.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 19, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Gillis had the money and patience no other GM had.

'Nucks Misconduct - Housing Swedish Millionaires Since 2000.

by Yankee Canuck on Feb 19, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

how long of a lunch did you take?!?!?

by Karina on Feb 19, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

couple of hours. it was a business lunch… i almost never have them, but this one was legit.

by daoust on Feb 19, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I will be eating at my desk and watching City-Copenhagen.

Till = slacker.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FCK!

Is it at Parken or City of Manchester?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Parken. Are you already aware of score, GT?

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

And hey, Atiba Hutchison!

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hadn’t even noticed he was playing, sheesh.

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ARGH!

*$&#@, City are maddening.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You do love your lost causes, don’t you? :)

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OH NO YOU DIDN'T

Till isn’t going to be a happy man now…

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FC Copenhagen!

Owns Manchester. Well, at home anyway.

by Kim Jorn on Feb 19, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahhh….

Something we can all agree to hate on :

Soccer Canada!

by Ando Rich on Feb 19, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh God Yes

There will be a special circle in hell for those bastards.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Feb 19, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s a ‘yes’ then :)

You've had enough word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Feb 19, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In Denmark. City lead 1-0 at the half.

by Godd Till on Feb 19, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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