Maple Leafs 5 v. Bruins 7: Time For Reflection

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 2:07 PM EDT in Game Recaps

Justin Pogge contemplates his evening

Justin Pogge kept that helmet on for a while once he got to the bench. You can see from this angle the 1000 mile stare he's got as he wonders what went so wrong in front of the home crowd again. There will be no shortage of talk about how Pogge is the worst goalie ever and not going to make the NHL. Considering his statistics:

	GP	MIN	W	L	T	EGA	GA	GAA	SA	SV	SV%	SO
2008 - Justin Pogge	7	372	1	4	1	0	27	4.35	173	146	.844	0

The two appearances back-to-back can give a bit of a better perspective. Friday night he went into the game when the Leafs' were down 4-0 and there was no pressure. He stopped 14 of 15 shots and the Leafs' played a good game defensively. Last night he starts the game at home on a Saturday night and you could see the tension. His puck handling was terrible even though it's normally a strong part of his game. Unfortunately, his teammates didn't help out with their play.

The goals run the gamut from completely his fault to completely his teammates' fault.

Grabovski tries to block Kobasew's backhand and manages to deflect it just under the bar. Can't fault Pogge for that one.
Ryder trips up Pogge as he chases a lose puck which gets him disoriented but their is no excusing leaving that massive gap on the short side.
The first Recchi deflection is a function of this odd focus on being in front of the opponent when they are in front of the net rather than tying up their stick. Ian White would have been better served by doing that. The most ridiculous comment of the night came on this goal as Pogge was at the top of the blue ice and yet somehow still too deep.
Another Recchi deflection. Again, this time Luke Schenn, he was allowed to position himself for a deflection. Pogge could have been another foot out but he was far from deep in his net.
He was definitely deep on this shot and didn't square up properly on the shot.
He has to see that Grabovski is harrassing Krejci and has to come out further to challenge the shooter.

The verdict: It's the little things that are killing Pogge. Once Gerber returns from his league mandated vacation he'll head down to the Marlies to hopefully lead them into the playoffs. I liked his post-game attitude. He acknowledged where he had gone wrong and you can't improve weak spots without realizing that they need work.

Now, there was some good news from last night's game with regard to the Leafs' future. The Mob (Kulemin-Grabbovski-Ponikarovsky) absolutely torched Chara. You can see the shift charts here at the wonderful Time On Ice. The line put up three goals and four assists between them while taking on one of the league's best defenders. Grabovski, especially, used his speed to harrass the Bruins' defence and made a really nice play on Poni's second.

Jay Harrison returned from Switzerland with more confidence. He looked good in particular on one shift in the third when he twice read the play perfectly and intercepted passes to keep the Bruins' pinned in their zone. Hopefully he'll add some more competition to the blueline going forward. Jay's definitely a Brian Burke kind of defenceman. And finally, Niklas Hagman returned only 6 games after Brendan Witt's suspension ended. Hagman was right back in form and potted his 20th of the year.

So the Leafs are off until April 1st when they play the Flyers. I wonder if Hagman should put on a bigger helmet...

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I think

the most ridiculous comment of the night was that Pogge should look at Thomas for inspiration. “Keep your chin up, kid, and everything will come up aces!” As a fan, I’m not so much interested in how he makes himself good enough to play, I want to see him WHEN he’s good enough to play in the NHL. I think Pogge may have showed himself (finally) as being expendable. {insert JFJ/Tuuka Rask joke here}

Tanking by accident?

by Haeyena on Mar 29, 2009 2:24 PM EDT reply actions

The only decent goaltending prospect with pro-hockey experience in a club is never expendable unless you get a comparable player back.

Old Guys in Blue and White

by koopa kid on Mar 29, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions

The problem with goalies is...

They only look as good as the team in front of them. While a guy like Grabovski can have a long run of bad games without much effect past the lack of points if Pogge has a bad game his errors are all there in big bright lights.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Pretty much exactly

Fernandez, if anything, looked far worse than Pogge in the first half of the night. Boston settled their game eventually, while the Leafs continued to turn the puck over in the neutral zone and not get penetration in the Boston end, and that’s when Boston opened up the game on us.

Does anybody remember this game? Games between us and Boston are hardly goaltending clinics, and Tim Thomas is an all-star. Bad games happen.

Old Guys in Blue and White

by koopa kid on Mar 29, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Except...

a goalie can lose the game and still put up a good performance PPP.

Pogge crapped the bed. Again. Lot’s of problems with his game. But, hey he said all the right things in the post game…

He needs lots of time away from the NHL before he should get another shot. He’s in his own head too much. Yes, he’s our top goaltending prospect, but he’s not our only one, and there’s no reason to not look in another direction to see what’s available from other teams in regards to goaltending prospects. As of right now, he’s done nothing to show that he’s got an inside track on the starter position for the Marlies, let alone the Leafs…

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Mar 29, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions

It would be foolish to suggest that the Leafs should bank on only one option in net going forward.

The tools are there so, yes, saying the right things post-game should give you some hope that can work on and improve his game.

He’s up right now because of Gerber’s suspension. Burke and Wilson made it clear that he hadn’t earned it. No point throwing the baby out with the bathwater though.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 30, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions

it would be foolish to bank on Pogge at this juncture.

I’m not throwing anything out, I’m just done with the whole “if the team played better” and “he’s not ready” excuses. At some point, we should get the idea that maybe, just maybe, Pogge isn’t all that good.

Since Atlanta, I’ve been waiting to see him put on another stellar display of goaltending, and he hasn’t. Not in the AHL, and certainly not in the AHL.

I was watching the Canucks at Blackhawks game today, and although the Hawks were losing, the kind of stops Khabibulin was making were the kind the Leafs could use every once in a while. A few highlight glove grabs, maybe a kick save stopping what was a certain goal only a second prior. Pogge has done none of that (no Leaf goalie has done that, but we’re talking about Pogge, and he showed us bits of that in Atlanta.) His play at the beginning of the season has progressively gotten worse in the Marlies. His last 5 games he had a save percentage all under 0.875. If we want to be competitive in less than 5 years, then Pogge needs to be much further a long in his development, or not be a part of the team.

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Mar 30, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions

a goalie can lose the game and still put up a good performance PPP.

Define a good performance? 1 mistake? 2 mistakes? Unfortunately for a goalie every mistake ends up in the back of the net. Out of that list there are 3 and arguably only 2 mistakes. If Schenn made three mistakes that glaring we’d shrug it off because odds are they don’t end up in the net.

Just like with every other rookie that the Leafs have dressed it’s part of the process.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 30, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions

but that's the point

a good goalie can cover a d man’s mistakes. I don’t expect shutouts, but I would hope that every pedestrian stop isn’t an adventure.

seroiusly, he was worse than Raycroft last game. Just brutal…

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Mar 30, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions

but that's the point

we’re making, that all but one of the shots he let in on Saturday were not “pedestrian” in the slightest. Were they ugly goals? Oh yes, but ugly doesn’t mean bad, or easy. A pedestrian shot ending up in the net would look more like the first goal Pogge let in against Atlanta.

The other thing here is we’re not trying to claim that Pogge is a “good” NHL goalie at this juncture, and the organization is about one word away from outright saying that he’s not. We’re making the point that one game for a young prospect against one of the best teams in the East does not make him a “bad” NHL goalie now and for forever.

It’s not about needing to “get the idea that maybe, just maybe, Pogge isn’t all that good.” because I already know Pogge isn’t that good, he’s not a Steve Mason, Patrick Roy, Marty Brodeur, or Felix Potvin that will come in and win us games single-handedly that you seem to want and expect him to be. That’s why he’s a prospect, and that’s why he’s not pencilled in to an NHL slot right now.

I think you’re missing something fundamental to what a prospect is, if Pogge could actually do what you’re expecting him to on a nightly basis then we would not have Gerber in our roster. What would be the point in keeping him in the AHL if he could stone the best team in our division?

I’ve watched Pogge a lot, living in Toronto. I know he gets beat glove side a lot, gets flustered easily, often overcommits to plays with his movement, loses track of the play fairly easily, and like a lot of young guys some nights he just stinks.

However I also know that he has the frame and athleticism to be an NHL starter. I know that more experience can settle him down in his crease, help him read plays, and make him look bigger to shooters. There is nothing about Pogge’s game right now that cannot be solved with coaching and experience, and there is evidence to show that when the Leafs play a decent game in front of him he can make stops. The only question is whether or not he will actually use the tools available and develop into the player he can be consistently. Which is what makes him a prospect right now, and not an NHL starter. Why you seem to think that 2-3 years is not enough time to improve from this season, or that dumping a player like Pogge would be prudent for any reason, I’m not sure.

Old Guys in Blue and White

by koopa kid on Mar 30, 2009 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions

yet...

you make excuses for why he isn’t that good. My whole point is that, he’s not that good. No excuses. He’s young. So is Steve Mason. He’s got athleticism. So does EVERY pro hockey player. What is his selling point? What makes him our “goalie of the future” except by default?

Right now, we have no other options in net. Athleticism is all well and good, but I would still expect a better result from this guy. I want to see him grab the opportunity he’s given and run with it. So far what he’s got going for him is that he’s young, and he’s athletic. He has not been good in the AHL, he’s been average. His stats prove he’s been average. He’s had just as crappy games in the minors as he has in the NHL.

I’ve yet to see an argument that makes sense in that we should keep giving this kid the keys. We need more options in net. If that means Pogge gets squeezed out, so be it. If he can’t handle competition, then why would you want him to play on this team?

I want our goalie to show emotion, to make the big save when it’s needed, and, on occasion, win the game when the team doesn’t deserve it. Remember guys like Cujo, Eddie and Potvin. Guys who could come in and play out of their mind lights out crazy good hockey? We don’t have those guys anymore. Pogge has yet to show that he can be one of those guys. Arguments that say he plays better with no pressure are useless. Every game should be pressure, if he can’t handle pressure, then he can’t handle playing net as a pro. Saying that the team played poorly in front of him means nothing. I’ve seen far too many golaies play behind crappy teams and still put on a stellar show.

Justin Pogge is not the answer in net for the Leafs if this team expects to be competetive in less than 5 years. And, quite frankly in 5 years, he better be 1000 times better than he is now, or else we’re looking down the barrel of a Cubs-esque drought. Don’t try to tell me he’s a good goalie when he’s not even top 10 in the AHL. At some point or another, the problem is with the goalie, not the team in front of him. Guys like DiPietro and Luongo played behind really crappy teams, yet still were able to post decent save percentage and GAA numbers.

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Mar 30, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions

I’ve yet to see an argument that makes sense in that we should keep giving this kid the keys. We need more options in net. If that means Pogge gets squeezed out, so be it. If he can’t handle competition, then why would you want him to play on this team?

You haven’t seen it because we haven’t been trying to make it.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 30, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions

then...

why the rush to defend the guy? Because he’s our only prospect in net?

He sucks, and he’s got a lot to work on before he deserves another chance. At this point, I’d rather have Raycroft in net than Pogge. I see no reason to rest our hope on him being the next starting goalie for the Leafs.

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Mar 30, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions

I see no reason to rest our hope on him being the next starting goalie for the Leafs.

Key. Right there.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Mar 30, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

why the rush to defend the guy? Because he’s our only prospect in net?

Why not let both sides of the story get aired?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 30, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

what's your side?

he’s good because he’s young?

sorry, wrong.

He MIGHT be good, someday. He currently, is not…

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Mar 30, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, he is currently not a good goalie. He is a young kid who wasn’t even supposed to be playing these games. We’re advocating giving the kid a break.

The only person who seems to think it’s a revelation that an AHL goaltender without stellar numbers maybe isn’t a show-stopper in the NHL is yourself, and I’m having a hard time convincing you that this season’s play isn’t actually a big deal.

And once again, we’re not “giving him the keys”, he was never supposed to play in the NHL again this season, and we’re not advocating Pogge become a starter in the near future here either. We’re just stating that there’s nothing wrong with Pogge’s development path, there’s nothing wrong with him losing an NHL game at this stage in his career, and there’s nothing wrong with keeping him around to see what happens.

Old Guys in Blue and White

by koopa kid on Mar 30, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Something to bear in mind…

Only three teams have put five past the best-in-the-east Bruins this season. Penguins, Sharks and us. And we’ve done it twice.

You've had all your word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Mar 29, 2009 3:20 PM EDT reply actions

Wow, I hadn’t realized that. St. Louis did too, but only if you count the shootout. Which you shouldn’t.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 29, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Indeed.

You've had all your word nourishment for one day.

by Mattblack on Mar 30, 2009 5:05 AM EDT up reply actions

You are really calling that line the Mob? Oh honey, it’s not snappy enough….

Ain't nothing but puck drops and poke checks, babydoll.
Now Princess Game Thread.

by Wrap Around Curl on Mar 29, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions

Yes

Unless someone comes up with something snappier. Plus, they swarm like a mob.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions

I always called them The Eastern Bloc. They make me think of vodka.

Ain't nothing but puck drops and poke checks, babydoll.
Now Princess Game Thread.

by Wrap Around Curl on Mar 29, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions

Pogge makes me think of Vodka, for other reasons

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 29, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions

If only it was Bonikarovsky instead of Ponikarovsky we could call them The KGB…

by snaptoit on Mar 29, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

that would work…all I got is the PKG (package) line…which is lame

Running over terribleness in search for something positive about the Leafs. Anything? Anyone?!

by blindfolded tank driver on Mar 29, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Any line called the Package Line has to have Tlusty on it.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it really would

Running over terribleness in search for something positive about the Leafs. Anything? Anyone?!

by blindfolded tank driver on Mar 29, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Welcome

Thanks for joining.

Well, they’re all Russian anyway. Could still be the KGB line.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions

In soviet russia, goal scores you!

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 29, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions

dude...

being part of the soviet union doesn’t make you russian. it just means you were forced to learn how to speak it. soviet bastards.

my lithuanian grandparents would give you a slap upside the head if you called them russian.

by daoust on Mar 29, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions

True

So just call them Soviets?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions

or just eastern european. i know that will throw a wrench in your attempts to come up with a catchy name for the line, but you’re a creative guy, you’ll figure something out.

actually, i like wrap’s suggestion of ‘the eastern bloc’.

by daoust on Mar 29, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah

Poni and Antro were the Soviet Bloc so Eastern Bloc works.

I mean, other than The Mob ;)

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions

You are just bitter my suggestion is better!

Ain't nothing but puck drops and poke checks, babydoll.
Now Princess Game Thread.

by Wrap Around Curl on Mar 30, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions

We’ve already had a bloc line. You’re suggestion is derivative :P

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 30, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions

ok, if we want to switch it up, i think some sort of reference to cabbage rolls or pierogies may be appropriate.

by daoust on Mar 30, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Too bad Poni’s name didn’t start with a B otherwise that line should be called the KGB line. Maybe in russian a P looks like a B?

...

by puckbuddy on Mar 30, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions

Once

JUST ONCE Id like to see this team play well in front of Pogge, give him a goddamned chance

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 29, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions

Here you go!

(he lets in a soft goal :D )

Seriously though, that game was a good indicator for Pogge’s potential. Good size and lateral movement, a spotty glove hand and fundamentals.

Old Guys in Blue and White

by koopa kid on Mar 29, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions

ah yes, I had to work during that game

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 29, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah

One good game and not a bad result for Pogge. It’s all part of the learning process. Burke and Wilson tell him what to do and he has to go down and work on it.

It would be great if the Leafs could hire a new goalie coach though.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions

a good goalie coach would go along way. Pogge seems to have the right attitude and the desire to improve his flaws. I just hope he can preform well enough in the AHL post season to boost his confidence to where he can get past these set backs.

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 29, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Just saw that there’s an LA Kings site linking to a blog post by Damien Cox today called “Troubles in Net, Troubles on the Net” that apparently talks about the Brian Burke twitter. However, that post isn’t on the Star site right now.

Did Cox actually write something and then take it down? Or is this just some sort of made up hijinks? Because being a faker on the internet is not cool.

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Mar 29, 2009 8:53 PM EDT reply actions

SUPER FISHY

Damn, wish we could have seen it. Wonder what was so bad about it that he had to delete it.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 29, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions

May have just been posted early. Maybe we’ll see it tomorrow.

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Mar 29, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Meh

I’m starting lose hope on Pogge, he may be a fine AHL-level goalie, or at most, a decent back-up at the NHL level but he’ll never be the starter that was envisioned of him when JFJ traded Raaks away.

I didn’t watch the game on Friday, but his performance on Saturday was just awful and there was little redemption in his play that night. I’m weary of the constant excuse of the rest of his team leaving him high and dry, you would think by now that he has developed enough that he can cover for his team mates once in awhile when they screw up… that’s what good, or even great goalies do. CuJo did it and can still do it as he showed last week, and Belfour did it every bloody game. Pogge? Haven’t really seen it.

As of right now, I see no evidence that he’s going to replace Toskalol or Gerber as the Leaf’s starting goalie… ever… and we’re going to have to look elsewhere for a replacement because all we’re doing is developing a barely adequate back-up.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Mar 30, 2009 8:31 AM EDT reply actions

Funny how the 14 of 15 performance Friday night gets completely glossed over…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 30, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions

I told you I didn’t see it, and even then as you mentioned he came off the bench when the team was down 4-nil so there was no pressure. That just further shows that he has the makings of a back-up goalie who can come off the bench and play well but not as a starter. And my argument is that he hasn’t really shown that he has what it takes to be a full-time starting goalie to replace Toskalol.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Mar 30, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions

I meant in general but anyway it shows that he can do it but he needs work :) which is all we’re asking for: that he get the time to do more work on his game.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Mar 30, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions