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Some Musings on the Toronto Marlies

Editor's Note: So the Marlies have been officially eliminated from the playoffs. I meant to write a recap after the game but life happened. Anyway, here's my experience at the game and some thoughts on the torrent of complaints that have been fired at the Marlies, MLSE, the citizens of Toronto, and Justin Pogge.

As you can guess by the result I attended Tuesday night's Toronto Marlies game. It did not go well. In my defence, I went with a good friend of mine who is poison for the home team. We've seen one or two amazing wins but the vast majority have been clunkers. It even transcends sports since the Bills lost to Miami when we went. As we walked out I came to a realization: the Leafs have not made the playoffs since he moved to Toronto in May of 2005. We're currently working on figuring out if he has had relatives living in the city since 1967. I might be on to something.

The Marlies were taking on the conference's top seed in game four of their series looking to go up 3-1. Despite this the rink was essentially empty. Being in the rink, I can tell you that the attendance was even lower than TSM noted on TV. There were 500 people there last night. Maybe 750 tops since I am notoriously bad at counting crowds and didn't have the patience to count the fans one-by-one.

I don't know why people complain about the Marlies. "It's not the Leafs!" they cry but from my seat in the McDonald's section they looked just like the Leafs. They played hard but committed some bad turnovers, their PP could not score on a 5-on-3, they took some dumb penalties and their porous PK cost them the game. My partner in hockey watching was not impressed with Pogge. He took two penalties, one stupid and one hilarious (he skated out of his net to push over a Moose and then skated back), and his problems with screens continue. For such a big goalie he does a terrible job of making himself big and seeing past the screens. As a comparison, Roberto Luongo does those two things amazingly. You have to wonder what changed from the first three games when Pogge was outduelling Schneider but if it's any indication it's his teammates' awful play. They allowed 3 powerplay goals and made an atrocious giveaway on another. It doesn't totally absolve Pogge of blame but it certainly doesn't warrant getting benched in the deciding game of the series. I'd love to know the reasoning behind that move because it looks like a panic move by Gilbert and suggests that if player development is our goal that he might not be the man that should be in charge going forward.

Star-divide

I wasn't the only one that was curious enough about the Marlies to make my way down to the Ricoh to catch playoff hockey. TSM actually made it out to the Sunday game and has been a frequent visitor to the Ricoh with little TSM. He had a list of observations that reflect his greater familiarity with the Marlies games. Based on my visit there are some valid complaints. Others likely require multiple visits to notice.

The most obvious issue with the Marlies is the price of tickets. If you can believe it they've actually gone down with time but at $38 for the best tickets, $30 for anything on the side, $21 for the cheapest section and a limited amount of tickets at $13 they are still way out of whack with what will work in the GTA.  My friend noted that he'd love to know who did the marketing report that suggested that those prices were feasible. The thing that seems to be lost on the decision makers is that Toronto is a major league city. There is such a wealth of world class events and attractions (insert joke about it being great to have a world class hockey team) that you cannot be charging those kinds of prices for the minor leagues. My friend made an observation that basically everyone in the Marlies organization was working towards the big club from the concession workers to the mascot Duke to the players and coaches. The price of tickets should reflect that reality.

Revamping the entire ticketing strategy goes hand in hand with addressing the slings and arrows that have been throw at Toronto's hockey fans. A lot of that rant is just that, ranting, and should probably be aimed at MLSE than the fans. It is unfortunate that the players do not get the support that they need or that their opponents feel great playing on the road in Toronto. Does it look bad when an OHL game outdraws the Marlies? Only if you don't bother considering the massive difference in ticket prices. Toronto Mike notes that the players are great with the fans, the PR/marketing department work their tail off, and the game is a good time. They have a band in the rafters which I actually enjoyed and was a nice change from the usual arena music. However, with parking at $12 and concessions being just as overpriced as the rest of MLSE holdings it makes a night out very expensive.

Those factors don't even consider the atmosphere. TFC, for the majority of its existence, have been terrible for a variety of reasons too many to list. They have also sold out every game, have 14,000 season ticket holders, and 7,000 on the waiting list. How come? Part of the reason is that going to a TFC game is an event. The crowd participation is unreal in the supporters sections and even the corporate seats make noise during the simpler chants. Compare that to the Ricoh where the crowd is sparse and the decibel level can be measured in single digits. If I was running the show I'd make all tickets the same price. The idea is obviously that the Marlies are in Toronto because that helps the development of the Leafs' prospects. It allows greater movement between the clubs which can help with the salary cap as well. Essentially, it is to the Leafs' advantage to be able to have the financial resources to lose money on the Marlies.

Along with the one-price policy I would close all sections outside of the middle two on each side until they were all sold out. Put tarps over the seats to keep people from spreading out. You can't create atmosphere if people are in isolated pockets all over the stands. It also makes it easier to run the promotions and giveaways that TSM suggested. The team is filling up with prospects so the attraction for the hockey fan to attend is building but the rest works to make going to the games an event which TSM is right to note is vital in Toronto.

These two moves are not without precedent. In 2006 they held the annual rookie tournament at Ricoh and I made it out to see the two games on Saturday. Those crowd numbers give you an idea of how bad I am at judging crowds since I would probably say that there were more along the lines of 1500-2000 people all on one side of the rink between the goal lines. They sold day passes for $15 (I think) or single game tickets for $10. The crowd was packed with fans out to see the futures of both clubs and included a lot of kids. It was boisterous and felt like something I would want to do again. Unfortunately, it bore no resemblance to a regular Marlies game.

Tie that in to cheaper concessions and you'll probably end up actually making money because more people will be at the games. The concessions should not be the same price as the rest of the MLSE empire in just the same way as McDonald's doesn't charge $30 for a burger just because some high-end restaurant does the same. Build better deals and take your lead from the southern hockey markets. The Marlies are essentially in the same boat in that they are trying to sell a product that people are not used to consuming. The problem with wait-times is true of every stadium run by MLSE. At BMO it is a hassle to get any food or beverages at half-time. It has to be considered to be a failure that no thought was given to the fact that the 15 minute half-time break is the only time when most of the crowd will go to eat/use the washrooms. Not to mention the narrow concourses! At the Ricoh it's more an issue of a lack of flexibility for payment. There was only one POS machine for credit/debit payments. That is just unacceptable. Everyone working the concessions is doing their best but they are hamstrung by a lack of foresight on the part of the planners.

Those are just a few of the changes that I would make to improve the Marlies' operations. Anyone here that has been to a game probably has at least a recommendation or two and I'd love to hear them. As Toronto Mike noted they are doing a lot of good work but some major decisions have hampered their efforts. The team, historically, was stocked with proven AHLers rather than Leafs' prospects, ticket prices are out of whack with what the market will bear and what makes sense for a minor league team, and the concessions are a mess.

However, there are a lot of things that they can tap into going forward. Getting to Ricoh is unbelievably easy. TFC has benefitted from it's shared location at the Exhibition stop on GO Transit (for the 905ers) and the TTC streetcar (for city-dwellers). The team is increasingly becoming the stomping ground for the Leafs' future. The team plays lots of weekend matinee games in a recently refurbished building that is actually a great place to watch a hockey game. There is a way to make the Marlies the kind of success that will keep the slanderous charges of Leaf fans not loving hockey (we've had about at least 600 comments here every night during the Leafs-less playoffs) from arising. It's just up to the powers that be to decide that they want to give their staff the tools that they need to succeed.

Poll
Why don't you attend Marlies games?
Make-up of the roster
4 votes
Ticket prices
11 votes
Level of hockey
16 votes
Other things to do
30 votes
Other (please explain in the comments)
33 votes

94 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs  |  Comment 69 comments |

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Comments

Display:

6836 mile round trip. Plus, it was a school night.

Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria.

by Mattblack on Apr 27, 2009 1:03 PM EDT reply actions  

my 400km round trip sounds puny now
thanks a lot!

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

mine’s only 200kms less than mattblack’s, but I sure made it to a game this year… ;)

Allowing fans to bang on the glass would be a good concession towards getting a better atmosphere.

by Karina on Apr 27, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

8417 kms round trip

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Apr 27, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup

there abouts…

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Apr 27, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

makes my approx. 40 km round trip seem ridicilous…thankfully I went to a playoff game

Running over terribleness in search for something positive about the Leafs. Anything? Anyone?!

by blindfolded tank driver on Apr 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

1000’s of miles round trip and for reasons I can’t discuss, I’m not allowed to leave the country.

Is it October yet?

by floridaLEAF on Apr 28, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same here, I’m a little under 450 km. It’s the Toronto traffic that I really hate going through.

by JP Nikota on Apr 29, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I went to game 3…the Marlies win of the season…just can’t get to them all…for multiple reasons…

Running over terribleness in search for something positive about the Leafs. Anything? Anyone?!

by blindfolded tank driver on Apr 27, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

arg…last win of the season…I fail at the internet

Running over terribleness in search for something positive about the Leafs. Anything? Anyone?!

by blindfolded tank driver on Apr 27, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

i voted other

because i live in California.

i know it’s a weak excuse, but it’s the best i could come up with on such short notice.

Also, Pogge sucks

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Apr 27, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Voted “Other” because I live nine hours away. I went to a game once though, and would have gone to see them if they played a playoff series within 3 hours of here.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Apr 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I voted other since I will soon no longer be in the same country as the marlies

Making stuff up since real Leafs news is far too depressing

by loser domi on Apr 27, 2009 1:17 PM EDT reply actions  

The answer is clear: There are too many damn foreigners on this site.

Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria.

by Mattblack on Apr 27, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

ya

youse guys need to take off eh.

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Apr 27, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

PRENTENDER!

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I vote we move the Marlies to Montreal

I’d become a season ticket holder. We will still call them the Toronto Marlies though.

by lordosis on Apr 27, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I voted other because I live in Pennsylvania

But I did make it to one Marlies game this year. Road tripping up to Scranton to see them lose to the Penguins…so I go when I can.

Zug be with you.
And also with you.

by NewJackCity on Apr 27, 2009 1:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I work late...

that’s my excuse.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team, and Mats Sundin, the GREATEST TORONTO MAPLE LEAF EVER...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Apr 27, 2009 1:57 PM EDT reply actions  

duh

simple solution!

quit your job.

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental."
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Apr 27, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pain in the ass

for me to get down to Exhibition Place, I’ll have to take the subway from Finch down to Union and than hop on the street cars down to there

I’m too lazy to bother with going into downtown T.O.

"God's in His heaven. All's right with the world." - Robert Browning (1812-1889)

by Winkle on Apr 27, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s actually a really easy trip to take. Once you get to the subway it’s like 100 steps worth of walking to the front door of Ricoh.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Canada Needs a southern ontario bullet train that runs Windsor to KIngston
this would make things much easier

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same

I live on the Eastside. I walk or ride my bike everywhere. I hate going all the way to Dufferin or beyond cause I can’t stand being on a streetcar for that long. Honestly, if the game’s were at Maple Leaf Gardens and I could just walk over from work, or ride my bike home after, I’d probably go to at least 10 games next year.

by general borschevsky on Apr 27, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only time a streetcar has been uncomfortable for me is when I’m headed towards BMO on a game day. It’s amazing how many people can get crammed in there!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

the streetcar to the Ex can be pretty hairy as well

by Karina on Apr 27, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe the TTC is a poor excuse, but honestly if they played at MLG, I’d go to 10 games a year, easy.

by general borschevsky on Apr 27, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely agree. Ricoh is in a horrible location. Just going to the TFC game last week I was delayed by 45 mins waiting for that Exhibition streetcar. That isn’t the first time that’s happened.

If they put the game in MLG I’d probably go.

A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Leafs Nation, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.

by furcifer on Apr 30, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also the tickets are too expensive for a minor league sport. If I can get to a Jays game for about $5 (used to be $2) I shouldn’t have to pay more for the Marlies. I say make the tickets $2-$25 and cater to school groups etc., get some reasonably priced beer and the place will be much fuller.

A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Leafs Nation, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.

by furcifer on Apr 30, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Would've seen a game...

but Chemmy and I had to brave a blizzard to get up to T.O. for Wendel Clark night and had to skip their game in Binghamton to do so.

That and the fact that I live near NYC.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.

by SkinnyFish on Apr 27, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

true.dat

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Apr 27, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

excuses, excuses

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where we unequivocally and unapologetically support the home team, and Mats Sundin, the GREATEST TORONTO MAPLE LEAF EVER...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Apr 27, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Other

I’m a poor student.

Keep firing Assholes!
Akiyama is the Japanese word for Sexify.

by Ubernoober on Apr 27, 2009 2:13 PM EDT reply actions  

don’t they have special prices for students?

by Karina on Apr 27, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

well there is an area they really really should promote. It’s so easy for Ryerson and U of T students to get to games, why aren’t they marketing to them?
When I was at Ryerson, we had some sort of deal to go to what is now the Scotiabank theatre. Something like it was half price with a Ryerson student ID (was also good for York and U of T students). We went to way more movies than we would have otherwise…

by Karina on Apr 27, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

It’s another great idea that I don’t think gets exploited enough by businesses.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mabel

needs to graduate and get a job with the Marlies….

by Karina on Apr 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm working on it

Seriously, they could use the help.

"If rubbing frozen dirt in your crotch is wrong, hey, I don't wanna be right."

by Mabel on Apr 27, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

yay! Free Gin night here we come!! Woot!

Running over terribleness in search for something positive about the Leafs. Anything? Anyone?!

by blindfolded tank driver on Apr 27, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Free Gin night? That could work…

/writes down in book

"If rubbing frozen dirt in your crotch is wrong, hey, I don't wanna be right."

by Mabel on Apr 28, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

best way to fill the seats

lower beer prices, even by 3 bucks. people will come pouring in for the “cheap” draft

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Then you get the rowdies though. I remember WHL games way back in the day, they would get absolutely crazy with the drunks being idiots. Not a fun place to bring kids.

Gerber power!!!1

by LeafFanInVan on Apr 27, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

well its a start, plus it would attract more students

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s a good idea. The beer, along with all of the concessions, are way over-priced. The one thing is what LFiV pointed out. Ticket discounts will work the best to attract students.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

lower tickets plus cheaper beer and you’ve got a packed house every weekend game

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t get me wrong, I love inexpensive beer too but unfortunately a group of the population has no way to properly regulate themselves.

Gerber power!!!1

by LeafFanInVan on Apr 27, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

true, I have some very interesting memories as a child in Kingston when the Frontinacs had cheap brew

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

the “bad environments for children” of yesterday are the breeding grounds of creativity of today!

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Apr 27, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly! I was exposed to it plenty as a child and I turned out……well….er…good…uh not ba…… well I havnt killed any….. I have fantastic teeth!

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Apr 27, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Research

PPP,
I’m going to put this post to good use if you know what I mean and I think you do.

cough

by Sherry on Apr 27, 2009 4:52 PM EDT reply actions  

hahaha

Great. Maybe it’ll help with the other thing.

cough

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sherry, Torontosportsmedia had a pretty good list of suggestions as well, probably worth a read.

http://torontosportsmedia.com/sports-and-toronto/ohl-game-outdraws-toronto-marlies/

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Apr 28, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

p.s. I don’t even go to providence bruins games, I don’t know why I’d go to some other teams’ minor league games.

At least providence is still in the playoffs (low, I know…sorry…at least Hamilton is out!)

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Apr 27, 2009 5:01 PM EDT reply actions  

haha

That made me laugh.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only a 900km round trip here, but I am still in Ontario… east down the 401 for 4 plus hours.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Apr 27, 2009 5:09 PM EDT reply actions  

yea over 1000km’s to see the marlies is a bit much…but ive flown down for leafs games…if the marlies were in town too id go.

by PeterZezel on Apr 27, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

The good thing is that sometimes they have games on Saturday or Sunday afternoons so you can do both.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea. I was there in january…but the marlies were in texas otherwise I would have certainly gone.

by PeterZezel on Apr 27, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Locals

Any other locals?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Locals rule! Represent!!

Running over terribleness in search for something positive about the Leafs. Anything? Anyone?!

by blindfolded tank driver on Apr 27, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m a cheap-ass student, who saves my pennies for gin and food.

"If rubbing frozen dirt in your crotch is wrong, hey, I don't wanna be right."

by Mabel on Apr 28, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't like hockey nearly enough

Simple explanation, right?

Borderline Genius- We Burn The Buds, Roll The Raps, and Smoke The Jays

by Archimedies on Apr 27, 2009 7:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Yup

But they also have new bands playing which you might like ;)

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Apr 27, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I used to have a blast going to watch the U of T Blues,way back when.Talk about atmosphere!! Tom Watt was the coach,the last time I went.It has been so long since I’ve been back to Toronto,I don’t know if Varsity Arena even exists anymore.

Carey Farelli was my favorite Blue….don’t remember the years he played..Late 70’s?

by wayne scarlett on Apr 28, 2009 1:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Munro starting

the elimination game – has there been a rationale given for this?
I really want the Marlies’ coach fired. But in a rather irrational way.

by Karina on Apr 28, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions  

I made it to the Thursday tilt

I agree with the take on Pogge… he looked like crap.

The team needs to do some serious rethinking on the pricing and the presentation quality could use some work. The whole thing appears bush league which is part of the allure.

I took transit so the parking argument doesn’t particularly bother me… my transit pass is in use all week so I didn’t have to pay to make the trip down. The $30 seats were all it cost me.

They need more advertising in the local press though. They’re too far below the radar level of most average joe fans. Only real hockey fans even pay them any attention. If the press wrote about them even more, and mentioned game times, I’m guessing more attention would be paid.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Apr 29, 2009 12:12 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree about the media needing to pay more attention

I like to be able to follow the ups and downs of a team, and to develop a ‘relationship’ with them before I’m motivated to go out and see them in person. I like to be able to listen/watch games, read articles and game reports, learn about the players. This isn’t easy with the Marlies, so my only incentive is that someday, some of them will be Leafs. Thanks, but I want more, or I’m just going to spend my few entertainment dollars elsewhere.

"If rubbing frozen dirt in your crotch is wrong, hey, I don't wanna be right."

by Mabel on Apr 29, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

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