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Droughts Again and 1967 - *Warning - Some Math.*

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via www.extrememathgames.com




I guess it's the SI article on ownership that has me irked at the moment.  Leaving aside their inability to figure out winning percentage in a sport that involves ties, their presumption as to what makes a good ownership group leaves a lot to be desired.

Basically, if you've won a championship or are close, you're a good owner.  If you haven't, you're not.

Which brings us back again to the inevitable 1967.

I've posted the drought list before, so there's no point in doing it again.  A link will suffice.  Let's deal with the numbers a bit, though. 

The picture above is of a 30-sided die.  Roll it and you get a number somewhere between 1 and 30.  Let's pick a number to represent the Toronto Maple Leafs, say 17.  If you were to roll this die, there's a 1-in-30 chance it will land on 17.  That's 3.33 percent.  Conversely, 96.66 percent of the time, it will land on something other than 17.

Eventually, though, the thing HAS to land on 17, doesn't it?  Well, yes and no.  There is a certain probability that it will, but there's never a certainty.  Each throw has that same one-in-30 chance of hitting, but the odds get better if you throw it lots of times.  Even after 30 throws, though, there's still a 36 percent chance that #17 will have never come up.  (Thanks, Mr. Bernoulli.)

In NHL terms, that means that even if things were purely random, a 30-year Cup drought would be nothing unusual.

Of course, things aren't purely random.  The die in the NHL is somewhat loaded.  There are weights attached to five or six numbers.  A weight will stay attached to a given number for five or six throws, then move onto another number.  It might return in another five or six throws, or it might not.  For an unweighted number, the odds aren't 1-in-30, they're a lot worse.  Even if a given number is weighted, though, there's no guarantee.  If six teams have an equal chance at something over five years, odds are 2-in-5 that any given team won't win anything.

When you look at the history of Stanley Cup winners, you see lots of clustering.  Typically, 3-5 teams will win a Cup in a given ten year period.  Normally, a team that wins one will win another within a year or so.  Once they fade out, they won't come back for quite some time.

Detoit, for example, is the best team in recent memory.  That has allowed them to have an extended stay at the top, winning four Cups in the past 11 seasons.  However, they've also won four Cups in the past 52.

Looking at the other teams still in action:

(Note - calculated to 2008, as they haven't lost this year as of yet.)

Boston, still with a shot this year - 0 Cups in the past 35 seasons, 2 in the past 68.

Anaheim - 1 victory in 2007 to show for their 14 seasons.

Pittsburgh - 0 for their past 15 seasons, 2 for 42 overall.

Chicago - 0 for their past 46 seasons, 1 for their past 69.

Other teams of interest:

Vancouver - 0 for their 38 seasons.

Calgary - 0 for 19, have won three playoff rounds since 1989.

Edmonton - 0 for 18.

Montreal - 0 for 15.  Haven't gone past the second round since 1993.

Of the 21 teams that were in the NHL as of 1979-80, 11 are currently in droughts of at least 20 years.  Nine of those are better than 30 years, and four are 40 or more.  Toronto, LA and St. Louis are stuck at 42 while Chicago is at 46.

Of the 30 teams in the NHL at the moment, 13 have never won a championship at all, five of those with histories extending past 30 seasons.

Can someone explain again WHY 1967 is so deserving of mention?

Once again - droughts aren't unusual.  They are the norm.  This is how it is SUPPOSED to work.  To win it all, a team needs talent, good health and a whole lot of luck.  It needs the calls to be made, it needs the bounces to go its way.  It needs that shot to go in from centre when momentum is against it.  Undeserving teams don't win championships, but deserving teams don't get them all the time.

As an aside, the real statistical anomaly in Stanley Cup history is Montreal.  Between 1953 and 1979, they managed to string together about four distinct clusters, which is completely unheard of.  There were 27 Cups awarded between 1953 and 1979.  Montreal won 16 of them.  If you start in 1956, they got 15 of 24.  They won 10 of 15 between 1965 and 1979.  This is the basis of their entire legend.  Over the other 72 seasons they played, they won 8.  Pretty good, but not that far off the norm overall.

That great run coincided with the birth of hockey on TV and the arrival of baby boomers as hockey fans.  That also helped with the growth of the legend.  TV and boomer memory being what they are, though, lead folks to think that they were always great, rather than being a team that went on what pretty much has to be the greatest 25-year tear in professional sport.

As a further aside, this isn't just a hockey thing.  Baseball has 15 teams in droughts of 20 years or more, led by the Cubs at 100.  Basketball has 9, led by Sacramento at 57.  The NFL has 17, led by the Arizona Cardinals, who last won a championship in 1947.  That's 61 seasons ago.

This is why I don't get bent out of shape when the Leafs don't win.  The odds against it are staggering.  I just want to see good hockey.  The rest is a bonus.

 

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Leafer

I really wish I had conenctions in the newspaper industry to get this published somewhere… excellent work explaining probabilities and how they relate to sports…

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on May 14, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions  

This is why I don’t get bent out of shape when the Leafs don’t win. The odds against it are staggering. I just want to see good hockey. The rest is a bonus.

My sentiments exactly. This is what I was explaining to someone just yesterday who was trying to get me to freak out by poking me repeatedly with the Leafs’ lack of recent success. He’s not a Canucks fan, he just likes to be a jerk, one of those friends, you know? :)

Anyway I kept a zen-like composure because of exactly that. I just like to watch hockey. If I worried about winning a championship, I’d cheer for the wings or whoever is hot that year and be just another bandwagon jumper d-bag.

Gerber power!!!1

by LeafFanInVan on May 14, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

everyone wants to see their team win the championship, of course. but if your only goal as a fan every year is to win a championship, and not to be entertained, you are setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment.

by daoust on May 14, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Love the article. the math and odds in understanding how lucky a team is to win, makes it more special when it happens. People attach their beliefs to numbers, without understanding the depth within them. Sadly 1967 has become a millstone for which the Leafs are forever judged, because as we all know, it is the only team that matters.

Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!

by blindfolded tank driver on May 14, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions  

great post 67

it’s a shame cox and WCH will never read it.

by daoust on May 14, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Everyone should e-mail it to them.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on May 14, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

they read emails?

Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!

by blindfolded tank driver on May 14, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think your rationalization can also explain why you don’t have to win it all in Toronto to be popular. Arguably the most popular Leaf team in history was the 92-93 squad that didn’t win anything. In fact, sometimes I wonder if, say, by some miracle the Leafs had sneaked into the playoffs and won the cup this year, the 92-93 team would still be the most beloved, simply by virtue of the way they played the game and connected with the city. But I could be wrong about that.

I think what your numbers do not take into account is the varying potential for a dynasty to emerge. The closest thing we have to a dynasty is the Detroit Red Wings. But there is certainly more parity in the league now than ever before, which makes winning it all seem more about luck than anything else. This is why as a Leaf fan I almost don’t even want them to just win one cup and then go back to being average. I think the goal ought to be to become the next great dynasty; to put a string of 3 or 4 cups in a row together. This is obviously exceedingly difficult to achieve in today’s NHL, but it should be the goal nonetheless.

palhalpall.blogspot.com

by Pal Hal Pall on May 14, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s really where I was going with the whole “weighting the die” thing. Of 30 teams, there are really only 5-6 real contenders, and they’ve got about 5 years on average to win what they’re going to win.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 14, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

so in your opinion, is it even possible to have the kind of dynasty that I mentioned, or given parity and the size of the league, would you say it’s simply impossible? Do you count the Red Wings as a dynasty?

by Pal Hal Pall on May 14, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dynasties

Like the Oilers/Isles/Habs?

I kind of doubt it. Can’t keep players together long enough.

I don’t consider the Wings a dynasty, but they’re clearly the top team of this era.

I actually kind of like the fact that there are a good half-dozen contenders. It’s more interesting than watching the same team win it again and again.

Though prior to last night, we had the last three Cup winners still active, last year’s losing finalist, and then the two newbies. Not a lot of changeover. Weighted dice….

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

This kind of depresses me. I always looked at the 1/30 odds as a good chance we’ll eventually win. Now I look at it completely differently.

A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Leafs Nation, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.

by furcifer on May 14, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s actually a certain freedom in it, I find.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

The whole 1-in-30 thing is one aspect, but obviously the key is to be one of those 5-6 teams that have the die weighted in their favour.

A couple of the Quinn teams were good enough to win. They didn’t, and that’s the whole 2-in-5 thing, but they had the chance, and that certainly is better than not having it.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 19, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

92-93

That team is also so well remembered because it was the one that really drove a stake through the heart of the Ballard era. No subsequent team is remembered as fondly as that one.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I always find it curious that Chicago and Boston don’t get a lot of ink for not only their droughts, but their lack of success overall given their history. Both Boston and Chicago have been the biggest underachievers in the NHL, but the Leafs are always reminded and ridiculed over the 1967 mark. If the Leafs had their own Bobby Orr or Bobby Hull/Stan Mikita, I think the Leafs drought gets mentioned far less.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on May 14, 2009 5:51 PM EDT reply actions  

sittler, Salming, Keon et all are not enough apparently

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on May 14, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well..

Orr is the greatest defenceman ever and older people will tell you that he might be the best player ever.

Not sure why Chicago gets a pass though…

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on May 14, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, Orr is in that super stratosphere of players with Gretz, Lemeux, Howe and Richard

Hull (any of em) or Mitka are not

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on May 14, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hull and Mikita are unquestionably within the top 10-15 NHL players of all time.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on May 14, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

very good players yes.
I just dont think they ever achieved that level of elite that Orr or Gretz did

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on May 14, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

It could be argued that never, or at least not in fifty years, have the Leafs had on their roster the best player in the world. But the Leafs were always lunchbucket teams, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

by Pal Hal Pall on May 14, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The most dominant Leaf was probably Charlie Conacher. Pre-TV, so he’s forgotten for the most part.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

No they didn’t, but they came close. And the Leafs never had a player of Hull or Mikita-like caliber. Both players have amassed a ton of awards and recognition. Just saying if the Leafs ever had that proverbial best player in the world, the drought doesn’t get mentioned as often.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on May 14, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hull definitely was.

If he doesn’t go to the WHA, he hits for >800 NHL goals.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

More Hull

Art Ross Trophy (1960, 1962, 1966)
First All-Star Team Left Wing (1960, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1972)
Second All-Star Team Left Wing (1963, 1971)
Hart Memorial Trophy (1965, 1966)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (1965)
Lester Patrick Trophy (1969)

I think that’s pretty elite….

He left the NHL as the reigning first-team AS left wing. Scored 300-odd more goals in the WHA before he was done.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Think Ovechkin with better wheels and more of a shot.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

ill say that i totally forgot about the WHL thing and call my point moot

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on May 15, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let us not forget that Orr won two cups and about 132 norris trophies.

by Pal Hal Pall on May 14, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chicago blows me away that they didn’t win more often.

In 1963-64, they had five of the six first-team all-stars. Didn’t win.

I saw an interview with Pierre Pilote a year or so back and they asked him why he thought that the Hawks didn’t win more often. His answer was that the Hawks were built for offense, and defense wins championships.

I also think that Chicago, until recently, rarely stunk. Same with Boston. That gets one more of a pass.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another theory

I think Boston and Chicago get passes on this, in part, because they were perpetually, in the pre-expansion era, the doormats of the league. I think they managed something like 5 Cups between the two of them in a six team league. 1967ers can probably back me up on this, but my understanding is that those two teams (and the Rangers too) were considered to be in almost a different tier. Ted Lindsay, for example, was traded by the Wings to the ‘Hawks as a form of punishment by an owner aggrieved by Lindsay’s unior-organizing activities.

The point is that back in the day, those teams weren’t really expected to win. Ever. Since they weren’t expected to win, they didn’t get grief from hockey fans about failures to succeed – instead, they were just viewed as second-rate teams who never had a chance. And I think it’s a bit of a cultural holdover from those times – each generation of fans takes its cues from the next. I don’t mean to suggest that Boston and/or Chicago still are “second rate” by any means, but just that the mystique of a Bruins or Hawks Cup drought hasn’t entered the popular consciousness the way it has for the Leafs. Formerly a powerhouse in the league, the Leafs no longer win championships at the rate they once did in the six team league – precisely because many of the other teams were crap – and now get it the lack of a Cup thrown in their faces. It was the same way in Detroit (but to a less widespread, less publicized degree in view of the profile of the team in gerneral) before the Wings finally won a Cup in the 90s.

1967ers, would you agree with that in any way?

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on May 15, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mostly, I guess.

The funny thing about Chicago was that so many players got dumped there that they started to become pretty good. From about 1960 onwards they were one of the glamour teams in the league.

Boston, not so much. They were a team that would range as high as third, but hadn’t won since the war. Then this kid named Orr arrived and changed all the rules.

There is an expectation out there that Toronto should be winning, and that’s likely the source of the grief. I think it’s unrealistic. I think Hab fans are starting to clue into this as well, that they just can’t snap their fingers and demand a championship. Those days are done.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on May 15, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great post.

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on May 14, 2009 8:43 PM EDT reply actions  

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