Another Team in Ontario?

just because i want to be an optimist for once

“Toronto has the financial and political support in the NHL to block a move like this”

But do they? I haven’t seen any evidence they do. They certainly didn’t have the pull during the lockout.

There are very real questions about the nature of what territorial rights are, what they mean, and what, if any, compensation teams get if they are infringed upon.

i don’t believe MLSE would have a problem with another team in Toronto, renting out the ACC. But a team with it’s own facilities would be more problematic for them.

I agree with the “protecting the brand” argument though. At the end of the day, these are businessmen, and they understand the need for continued economical growth.

I vote no, but I think they will relent if they can find advantage in having this second team. If it’s renting the ACC to them, to providing them access to TV, like use of Leafs TV to broadcast games, protection rights over TV contracts.

But that’s not where this team is going. Fact is, the area surrounding the Tri-Cities/Hamilton region is still predominantly white. (I grew up in Brantford)

under a rock = in finland…

and they shouldn’t move the team

Someone brought up Al Strachen’s interesting point that if SOW got a new team, the NHL really isn’t expanding their fan base because you’re not going to create new hockey fans in SOW by injecting another team there.

So now I’m wondering, just because Toronto has such a high population density and because it does have so many existing hockey fans here, everyone assumes that Toronto would easily support a second NHL team…

But could it really?

Everyone hockey fan I know in Toronto is either a fan of the Leafs, or a fan of another existing NHL team already. The logic behind introducing two teams into Florida was that they would naturally attract all the Canadian snow birds who flock down there every year to their fan base… but than you don’t really see that happening do you? The only time either the Lightning or Panthers ever really attract them is when the Leafs are in town… hell you don’t ever see Sens or Habs fans packing their arenas when those teams are playing there do you?

So what if a second Toronto team suffers the same effect? What if, Toronto hockey fans don’t bother showing up to the home games of the second team unless the Leafs are playing? I think its worth considering especially when you take notice at how passionate about hockey Canadians are… I don’t think they are willing to change allegiances that easily.

Just my two cents.

another way of looking at this….
post-Lockout, when the Leafs moved the Marlies to Toronto from St. John’s, a lot of fans in NFLD were extremely upset. My uncle hasn’t watched an NHL game since. He was an avid Leafs fan for years, had season’s tickets to the St. John’s Maple Leafs, but was fed up with MSLE taking his team for no reason. He refuses to support the teams he’s long hated – Habs, Sens, etc. – but still loves hockey.
I doubt he’s the only one that feels this way- there are hockey fans out there who have no team. They’re caught by their disappointment in a once great franchise and hate the other teams who are geographically nearby. Perhaps this team would find support there.

that team doesn’t exist anymore, right? Well, except as the Missisauga Majors.
What’s their old rink like? Size/ use wise?

I voted yes but it comes with a bunch of heavy caveats:

1. The Leafs would have to get a one-time payment for territorial rights. I read the Canadian Competition Bureau decision but I don’t trust any legal decisions based on hypotheticals (is that irony?). Also, it doesn’t really apply in this instance. This would not be a league-mandated move that the Leafs were trying to block on their own. The head office would be preventing a franchise from moving which every other granter of franchises is allowed to do
2. The Leafs would have to be able to buy some of the television rights for the new team. Right now, the Leafs broadcast a dozen or so games a year along with old games, really old games, and random NCAA games. The station would get a massive boost and increased range possibly with the deal and I’d imagine that MLSE would push for that.
3. I could see having the team use the ACC being an incentive. They’d make a killing on the concessions and it makes sense for at least the first while for the team to use that building. Balsillie has a deal in place with Copps so this one probably won’t happen.

I think there are two issues that impact MSLE with respect to a second team in the area. First is the fan base as discussed. You won’t get a rush of Leaf fans changing allegiance, but you will get a rush of hockey fans going to the new team. This new team will have to price themselves (way) below the Leaf price point. And they are going to attract a flock of fans who just can’t get Leaf tickets, either because they are too expensive or just can’t be found. In terms of cultivating future fans, this would hurt the Leafs.

Second, and I think more importantly, is the risk to no other events at the ACC. If the team plays out of Copps, it is not an issue since the arena is already there and far enough away from the city as it is. However, build a new arena in Mississauga or Vaughan or somewhere closer to the city, and then you start draining other sources of revenue away from the arena. MLSE is probably more scared of that in the short term. Melnyk wanted to buy the Gardens a few years back and convert it into a smaller arena for his St Mike’s team, but MLSE refused fearing competition for concerts and what not. They rather turn it into a Loblaws or Home Depot.

I don’t think the NHL has much of a choice. If they reject Balsillie’s (sp?) offer, who else is going to buy the Coyotes? I think this is, really, their only chance of saving the franchise.

I also heard that Balsillie bought an empty lot in Cambridge, which I heard is outside the region where he would have to pay the Leafs to hold a team, when he was trying to buy the Predators back in ’07. Is this true?

I’d be much more supportive of Balsillie if he wanted this team somewhere else in Canada. “Fans” of the Leafs are ditching the Leafs and already jumping on the bandwagon

A few things:

1. If the hypothetical team is situated outside of the Leafs’ and Sabres territorial rights, I’m not sure what power or influence MLSE or the Sabres even have. If the team is in the GTA the Leafs have a case and precedence for compensation from previous franchise relocations in Anaheim, Long Island and New Jersey, but if it’s in Guelph? I don’t see them having anyting more than one lone voice at the table.
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2. Speaking of lone voices…the Leafs have never been able to rally any teams to support them. The Leafs lost on pushing for an early end to the lock-out, the Leafs lost on having franchises control their web-sites and there has been open friction between Betteman and Tannenbaum at NHL governor meetings in the past. I wouldn’t be surprised if more team’s rally to support another team in Ontario just to dilute the Leafs’ standing and stick it to one of the wealthiest teams and best known brands in hockey.

3. There is near insatiable demand for pro-hockey in Southern Ontario. With over seven million people, the golden horseshoe has 2.5x the population of the greater Montreal area and about the same population as the entire province of Quebec. It is the corporate capital of Canada. That’s a massive amount of people to market to and draw on. Case in point, when Balsillie put tickets and suites up for sale at Copps, they sold 64 of the 70 luxury suites in two days.

The Leafs may not like a third team in Ontario, but I don’t know that they’ll have much of a say in stopping it.