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The Sedin Twins Are Elite Hockey Players

There seems to be quite a bit of mirth, shock, and despair at the report that Daniel Sedin and his twin brother Henrik Sedin are looking for matching 12-year $63M contracts. I've tried to spread the gospel of James Mirtle's definitive post looking at the fact that while the hockey world was snickering at their alien shaped heads the twins have become elite players in the NHL:

  1. Daniel and Henrik both finished with 82 points, good enough to be tied for 13th in the NHL during the season.
  2. Putting aside the limitations of plus-minus for the moment, they also finished 14th and 17th among forwards in that category as well.
  3. The only players Daniel had fewer even-strength points than this season were Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby, Parise, Datsyuk and Havlat. Add Iginla to the list for those ahead of Henrik.
Steve is equally puzzled that the Sedins seem to be non-starters for so many Leaf fans. He then goes further and does his best to battle the perception that the Sedins disappear in the playoffs but MLHS' Jeff Bellamy thinks that it's hilarious to offer a top 20 forward in the NHL a contract that will result in a $5.25M cap hit and TSM's visitors voted 3-to-2 against signing the twins at a slightly higher cap hit but only for four seasons. But the outright dismissal makes me feel like this guy:

Star-divide

There seems to be three main concerns about signing the Sedins:
  1. There are two of them
  2. They are too good
  3. Twelve years is a long, long time

 1. There are two of them

The fear here is that two of them will take up a lot of cap space. One would only be $5.25M but two would be...carry the one...$10.5M. This one is actually ridiculous and possibly a strawman.

2. They are too good

This one goes back to how you think think the Leafs can best go about winning the Stanley Cup. Since the Leafs' began rebuilding (Step One: Fire Incompetent GM - check) we have been bombarded with all of the possible models for turning around a moribund franchise:

  • The Pittsburgh Model - Tank on purpose, trade away anyone close to NHL-calibre, draft two generational talents
  • The Detroit Model - Be really good at everything related to hockey and win so much that players will give up millions to join you
  • The Boston Model - Have a penny-pinching owner, Sign a Norris Trophy candidate (winner?), turn a journeyman goalie into a Vezina candidate (winner?)
  • The Chicago Model - Have a penny-pinching owner, be terrible by accident, draft good kids, have penny-pinching owner die (someone should have told us in the 70s when it mattered)
  • The San Jose Model - Be pretty good at developing players, have Ron Wilson, ensure a pipeline of great Finnish goaltenders, have opposition GM trade you a Hart Trophy winner for 50 cents on the dollar as a final act of stupidity
  • The Washington Model - Like the Pittsburgh model but not as hyped or successful (yet)
  • The Montreal Model - What goes up must come hilariously down.

So far, it's the Pittsburgh Model that the vocal majority of fans has adopted. Every game played by someone over 25 is seen as a waste. Especially since we all know that there is only one way to get elite players. Success post-lockout has been driven mostly by teams that have an elite core, cheap veterans, and youngsters outperforming their contracts. It's no surprise that the Senators fell apart as soon as the cheap players started wanting to get paid.

3. Twelve Years is a Long, Long Time

Well, to be fair, it is a hell of a long time. Hell, it's almost 50% of my lifetime (so far!). Still, the entire concept is being dismissed out of hand despite the Red Wings using it to good effect.

Quick Rebuttals

Obviously the first one is ridiculous. It's actually great that if you get one they come together because you know what's better than one elite forward? Two of them. Three's even better than that (should have thought of that Mrs. Sedin). If they all come with a cap hit of $5.25M then careful handing me the pen to sign because you might pull back a nub.

The second one is at least understandable. The Leafs are likely going to add another stud defenceman or a high end forward to Luke Schenn. It's hard not to wonder if it might be worth it to try to add Taylor Hall to the duo or whoever is set to go 1st in 2011. However, there are different ways to build a good team and one way that we've seen works is Detroit's method of letting the kids develop out of the limelight.

The third one is the big worry. It's certainly a gamble to start tossing out long-term contracts like these. Players can get injured, become ineffective, lose their motivation, get injured, decide that they want a trade, get injured...There's a lot that can possibly go wrong. Ask Garth Snow how he feels about 13 more years of Rick DiPietro.

The Pitch

Here are the Sedin's stats from last year:

GPGAP+/-PIMPPGSHGGWGGTGSOGPCT
2008 - Daniel Sedin 82 31 51 82 24 36 9 0 7 1 285 10.9

GPGAP+/-PIMPPGSHGGWGGTGSOGPCT
2008 - Henrik Sedin 82 22 60 82 22 48 4 0 8 0 143 15.4

That could be yours for the low-low price of $10.5M a year. Read the links up top. These guys are great players, defensively responsible, and they made Anson Carter a 30 goal scorer. Think about what they could do with Jason Blake, Niklas Hagman, or Nikolai Kulemin. The contract itself is deceptive. The term is not as oppressive as it would seem. The Sedins are extremely durable. Daniel Sedin has missed only 14 games (or an average of 2 a year) since he entered the league and Henrik Sedin has only missed 10. What makes those totals even more impressive is that they have only missed one game combined over the past four seasons despite playing an increasingly important role against tougher opposition.

Not to mention that like the Zetterberg contract (which Steve discusses) is front-loaded. If the Sedin's was similarly front-loaded the buyout would be miniscule especially factoring in 7+ years of the cap going up (it can only go up right?). Toss in the fact that if the Sedins decided to retire the contract would come completely off the books. And in a worst case scenario they can help the Marlies win the Calder Cup. Actually, there's no way they won't ask for a no-movement clause. Dammit. Either way, let's say that they are elite players until they hit 34. That is still five years at $5.25M plus they could then morph into the veterans that feast on easy opposition. Kind of like hockey playing Woodersons. Given their history, they aren't likely to just fall off the face of the earth.

What would Brian Burke Do?

He'd kick an ass or two probably but what might Burke do about the Leafs this summer? That's obviously a common refrain these days but the general sense is that no one has a clue. Where can we look? How about his most successful stop: Anaheim. When Burke left the West Coast for the Vatican Earl Sleek ran a week-long look at Burke's work with the Ducks and his entry on his roster-building philosophy is worth re-visiting.

Lesson One: If you want depth, don't acquire depth players; instead insert talent at the top of your roster.

This was the one that most caught my eye when Burke was hired. If the Sedins came to town they'd instantly bump everyone down the roster. Man Grabs Lemon did pretty well against top opposition last year but imagine how well they could do facing off against the second tier players? Most of the predictions for this year's opening night roster have Stajan leaving but what if he was playing on the third line instead of being forced to try to carry the second line?

Lesson Two: Shelter your kids – It’s good for them and it’s good for you.

Earl gives a good recap of how the Ducks sheltered guys like Getzlaf and Perry under Burke and that continued this year with Bobby Ryan. I don't think anyone could argue with the results. Last year the Leafs lead the league in games played by rookies by a mile. Obviously the kids only develop in as much as they are put into the tough roles by why not give them the best chance at success? Getting the Sedins instantly takes the pressure off of all of the young offensive players to produce immediately. Tlusty can spend another year in the AHL, this year's pick can take his time getting ready, and guys like Blake and Hagman get some veteran help.

Lesson Three: Be true to your players and they’ll be true to you.

This might make the Leafs an attractive option for the Sedins. Burke has already shown his confidence in them through his draft day manoeuvrings to land them and Nonis gave them the keys to the team.

Lesson Four: No Long-Term Deals ... Flexibility = Positivity!

So this probably rules out Burke lining up to sign the Sedins to a 12 year contract. While it does bring their salary cap down to a great number he might not be comfortable having them on the roster beyond season 5 let alone 8, 9, or 10 because there is so much uncertainty as to what the next CBA may contain or what the cap might resemble in the future. This is also a man that is against offer sheets as well so he might be hampering himself by ruling out some options. In the near term this move would give the team cap flexibility but how long does Burke plan on being in Toronto? Is he willing to make a move that will pay off for the duration of his current five year contract but that might handicap his successor or even Future Burke?

Personally, I can be convinced that this is a deal that the Leafs can do. Injuries or retirement would take the deal off of the Leafs' books and if worst comes to worst a buyout past the useful years would essentially be a pittance. Is this something that Burke might do? There are some indications that he might but so far the man has done his best to be inscrutable other than announcing that he wants Tavares and that the Leafs are going to the playoffs next year. This would certainly help...

So what would you PPPers do? Can you stomach the thought of seeing the Sedins shuffle around at 38 years old? or do you think that they are the kinds of players that can contribute well into their 30s? Are the first five years worth it?

Poll
Read the entire post before voting please. If the twins' demands are accurate do you think that the Leafs should consider signing them?
Yes - Top 20 players don't grow on trees
155 votes
No - They have alien heads
105 votes

260 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 92 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

GREAT POST

triple p.

I was initially in the DO NOT WANT camp, but Steve and Mirtle’s detailed analysis made me realize that, as a Leafs fan, maybe I really don’t like Vancouver. Maybe, perhaps, there is some animosity there, colouring my judgment.

What is interesting to me is that Zetterberg’s contract is thrown up as a comparable, but no one is all that concerned with the fact that, on average, Zetterberg misses ten games a season. No way he’s going to last until the end of his contract…

If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Jun 19, 2009 11:27 AM EDT reply actions  

That’s a good point about Zetterberg. He’s smaller and seems to be less durable than the Sedins. I have no injury concerns with the twins.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fantastic points PPP,

I agree wholeheartedly. I mock the sedins when on the Canucks, and I don’t really care for their style, but I honestly would love to see them signed to the Leafs. They would absolutely make the team better and the contract structured that way would not hamstring the club to surround them with other top talents.

If this is the only blockbuster signing Burke does in free agency, I will be a happy dude.

by LeafFanInVan on Jun 19, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

the game after Zetterberg signed that deal deal,he went out with a wonky back.I laughed my ass off at that,then read the rest of the story.Zetterberg has a history of problems with his back,and yet Holland still did the deal.

The Sedins are elite players,but having lived out there for a few years,and putting up with the media?
This smacks of the Vancouver media and especially Don Taylor,blowing things out of proportion.Either that or the Sedins both have their Glock 40’s pointed at Gillis’ head.I don’t believe they want to stay in Vancouver….and they may not want to be in Toronto either.Who knows?

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why not?

See my post in another thread about Sedins vs Cammalleri/Nash. I think it is all about perception. It’s like every year in my family hockey pool, I pass over Damon Langkow because I don’t like the way his name sounds. Yet every year he is a more reliable pick for mid-late rounds. There’s no logical reason not to like these guys. The long-term deal is going to be the thing that prevents a signing. But if they signed, that would be ok, as long as there is room for Nash next year.

by Leaf in Habland on Jun 19, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions  

I voted no

Not that I’d be overly disappointed if they did sign for this amount, it’s just that I don’t feel like this team is ready to make a push signing good talent at a higher price yet.

I’d rather take one more year of struggles/development, and then when the cap comes down, have lots of flexibility to do what we need to do. There may be even better players to sign (i.e. Nash, Kovalchuk, Luongo if they don’t resign), and some of our younger players will be better suited to not just contribute, but excel. That’s when you make the push IMO.

by lordosis on Jun 19, 2009 11:29 AM EDT reply actions  

Nash/Kovalchuk/Luongo

Granted, the Panthers stupidly let Bouwmeester walk but the other three aren’t going to hit the open market. And if they do they’ll cost close to this price tag for two Sedins on their own.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

Though I did say “may be better players”. But you can’t sign them if they refuse to sign.

I just used those three as a quick example, but what I would do is hold off on any major signings this summer to see what we can do next summer when some teams may be in a cap bind, other FAs will be available, and we’ll know more about some of our youngsters and what potential they may hold.

by lordosis on Jun 19, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nash won’t get much better than he already is. He may have a Vinny Lecavalier/Joe Thornton type great season or two in him, but I don’t think he’ll be “Rick Nash – Superstar.”

Kovalchuk on the other hand. You get that boy out of Atlanta and stick him on a team that’s got a decent pivotman and look out…

If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Jun 19, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rick

The guy’s name is Rick. There is not enough emphasis being placed on this fact.

by Leaf in Habland on Jun 19, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good Point

That is a great name.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

And holding off is another option but as a rejoinder holding off for the big ticket players was JFJ’s plan coming out of the lockout and then he saw them get re-signed one-by-one or traded to other teams because he didn’t have the assets to move.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes

using the “everyone wants to play in Toronto” theory doesn’t get you very far.

If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Jun 19, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

JFJ was handcuffed by Peddie,in being forced to give Belfour that stupid contract,among other things.

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

doesn’t change the fact that JFJ was an idiot.

A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.

by furcifer on Jun 20, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m still not convinced he was interfered with that much. I think JFJ was just a bad GM.

by Mirinov's Nose on Jun 20, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

a little from column A a little from column B

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Jun 20, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with Lordosis,

But am willing to wait even longer. I have no quibbles with the twin’s talent, but it would handicap us right now instead of giving us the maximum ability to develop the team. I’m one of the few that wants to see the Leafs trade whatever we possibly can to a) snag another first rounder this year, and b) snag as many first rounders next year. Dump Kabby and Kubina, dump Toskala, dump Pogge, dump Blake, etc. I’d rather be spectacular in 3 years than slightly better in one.

"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09

by kidkawartha on Jun 19, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya, I hate to admit it but I kinda like the Kings model of being stupidly good top to bottom in a couple years.

Essentially, I don’t think we’ll make the playoffs even with the Sedins. And if that’s true, I’d rather finish towards the bottom than that dreaded 9th/10th spot. I’d also like to see some quality ice-time and opportunity (i.e. PP) given to Grabby, Tlusty (if he’s on the team), etc. Time that would be taken away (and rightly so) with the addition of such great talent. If the Sedins were available next year, I’d be more willing, but not yet.

Also, I wouldn’t dump Pogge yet.

by lordosis on Jun 19, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, Lordosis-

What I meant to write was “dump Pogge when we have the Monster signed, and get a decent set of picks for him”. Use one of them to draft another goalie prospect.

"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09

by kidkawartha on Jun 19, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

James Reimer is now on the fast track and with Allaire,will be much better than Pogge.

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

word from friends in Toronto,is that Pogge is uncoachable.He also alledgedly told Burke to quit fucking him around(Pogges words),in regards to the constant up and down.He apparently did not get the chance to start for 5 or 6 games after being sent down the last time.I’m not sure of that,but I trust the people who told me he blew up at Burke,since two of them were there in the corridor.

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

if that really happened, then I can sense why Pogge was pissed off and congradulate him for having the balls to stand up for himself.

saying that it probably was a bad idea

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Jun 20, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

OMG

Imagine Nash and Kovalchuk?

by Leaf in Habland on Jun 19, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, I Can

All I see is Kovalchuk scoring 40 goals, yet somehow accumulating a -20 rating, the score being 7-6 every night because we have no cap space to sign competent defenceman, and the team flaming out in the first round year after year because neither of them have any idea of what the hell to do in the playoffs.

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Jun 19, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

ouch

Way to ruin it with reality. Imagine the highlight reel goals though…

I agree about Kovalchuk’s defence, but not with the playoff issue. Both have been clutch in international tournaments for Canada and Russia. Neither have had much of a chance in NHL playoffs (4 games each—Nash had 10 goals in 12 games in Memorial Cup play). If we draft Cowen we’ll have two shut down D-men though, under good contracts for the next 3-4 years.

by Leaf in Habland on Jun 19, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t both play LW though?

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Jun 19, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again with the details…jeez.

by Leaf in Habland on Jun 19, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

My sister in law in Denver,says that the Avs are keying on two players,for the 3rd overall pick.
They love Duchene and need Cowan.Reports over on Puck Daddy suggest the Isles will take Duchene 1st. If they do,then Cowen is an Av.

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow. That would mean that either Tavares or Hedman drops to fourth. That sure would be something.

by Mirinov's Nose on Jun 20, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Five years, sure. Twelve years, no.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Jun 19, 2009 11:34 AM EDT reply actions  

exactly.

A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.

by furcifer on Jun 19, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

The thing is that I think that this deal can be made effectively a five year deal. A legitimate five year deal will cost a much higher cap hit.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Only if they retire voluntarily after five. The buyout on any deal is for twice the remaining years on the contract.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Jun 19, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the buyout front the last couple of years would be very small spread out over twice the remainder of the contract.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

seven years goes to fourteen, though, which pretty much negates the ability to turn this into a 5-year deal. Also – they want no-movement clauses and you can’t trade just one. Have to trade both.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Jun 19, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well..

I didn’t necessarily mean buying them out right after 5 years but the NTC and trying to move one is a good point.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

If the twins ask for the NTC or no movement clause,then they will not be signing in Toronto,unless Burke goes against his own stated distaste for such albatross clauses.

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Say... Do It

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmUZGdi7Ty4

Unable to actually speak French since 1980.

by Pamplemousse on Jun 19, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

You make a pretty sound case, and I get the feeling that BB’s thinking is very much along the same lines, add the fact that he’s got a history of lusting after these two and it looks promising that if they can’t sign ‘em in Vancouver we’ve got a good shot over here.

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 19, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m firmly in the camp that these two are elite players, and I’d love to see them in Toronto.

But at the terms reported? Twelve years? No. That’s madness.

They’re elite players. But for that type of contract, you’d better be uber-elite… a once or twice in a generation type player.

Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.

by Down Goes Brown on Jun 19, 2009 12:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Like Johan Franzen? Or Rick DiPietro?

by Godd Till on Jun 19, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

(insert OH SNAP pic here)

by LeafFanInVan on Jun 19, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just don’t like their style. Good players, yes, but incredibly frustrating to watch… and that’s when I’m watching Canucks games with my husband. I’d probably break things if they were on the Leafs. GO TO THE NET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But yes, they are excellent players and a $5.25 mill cap hit is definitely looking good…. 12 years is something I think Burke’ll balk at.

"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero

by Karina on Jun 19, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions  

12 years is something I think Burke’ll balk at

And at the end, the years will probably scare everyone but Vancouver off.

Then again, this is just what they are looking for. You can shorten the term and increase the cap hit. Where do you see it coming good? 9 years at $6.5M?

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

well

obviously, their agent knows he’s going to have some negotiating to do. he’s not going to come out and ask the bare minimum.

I think that through this, what they’re really saying is, they’ll take $5+ million a year. However that is worked out. I can see a deal getting done for 6 years quite easily. At their age, that’s still a great term.

If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Jun 19, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

as previously stated…I choose to believe that those numbers were reported in Vancouver fror a reason.I don’t believe the actual numbers will be anywhere near those reported.They are ,I think deliberately high to scare off Vancouver.But we will see July 1st.

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who do they play with on the Canucks? I have the impression that they need the third player on their line to be that net presence.

by Its Cold In Here on Jun 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

‘Who do you play with the Sedins’ has been the VCR equivalent of the Leafs ‘who the hell can stop the puck’ query of years past. Finally midway through the year they put Alex Burrows on their line and it took off. They actually got a lot easier to watch )Creating far more chances off the rush as opposed to the cycle) when it happened.

by Godd Till on Jun 19, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah pretty much the only guy that really stuck with them of note was Anson Carter. Makes me think that a big dude with soft hands would be just the ticket (PONI!)

Taylor Pyatt was brought in to play with them and was epic fail. Ditto Steve Bernier.

I could see Blake doing well with them too. It would be fun watching the experimentation!

by LeafFanInVan on Jun 19, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Poni would be great with them also.

I think they stay in Vancouver, though.

by Godd Till on Jun 19, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you’re right.. I has a sad :(

But, can pursue other UFAs anyway! Man, free agency day, it’s like xmas for me!

by LeafFanInVan on Jun 19, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about MPS or baby Schenn?

by Its Cold In Here on Jun 19, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can we get both,at 5 and 7? They can if the media in LA is to be even remotely believed.
I think everything hinges on what the top 3 do.MSP would be an excellent pick up,but will play in Sweden next year,to fufill his contract.Unless the Leafs buy out that year,if they are allowed to.And if they are told that they can,that little goof Buttman better not be coming back later saying that they have to give up a draft pick.

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Jun 19, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your poll question has me vexed because I would say Yes, but only because they have alien heads.

Is it October yet?

by floridaLEAF on Jun 19, 2009 12:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Here’s another point to wrestle over: If the Sedins come to T.O. they will be the face of the TML for the forseeable future. First it was Dougie and Wendel, then Sundin and some other guy. If Burke signs The Twins they will be the new poster boys for the Maple Leafs.

In that regard, they have a strike against them as they’ve been able to play in relative obscurity in Vancouver for their careers. Can these two really be the face of the franchise for Toronto?

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.

by SkinnyFish on Jun 19, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm sorry

Luke Schenn pities the fool who forgets him.

If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock

by blurr1974 on Jun 19, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s Luke Schenn’s job, I think. They’ve never really been the face of the Canucks – it’s beend Naslund, Bertuzzi, Linden, and Luongo while they’ve been in town.

by Godd Till on Jun 19, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you believe that the Twins would leads the Leafs in scoring, they’ll be the face. Advertisement’s won’t ask you to come see Schenn play good defensive hockey; they’ll ask you to come see The Twins light up the lamp.

The fact that they haven’t been the face in Vancouver is what I’m getting at.

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.

by SkinnyFish on Jun 19, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Leafs could use Ian White’s mustache as the face of the franchise and still sell out. They don’t need someone to sell the team in the community or on TV, they need someone to help the team win.

by Godd Till on Jun 19, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

The pressure will definitely be ramped up a notch but they can ask Mats about how he handled it.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that they’d be it for the next couple of years until Schenn and his younger brother are ready to take over.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Younger brother eh? Got an inside draft scoop you aren’t telling us Mr. Press Credentials?

Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.

by SkinnyFish on Jun 19, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still think that the term is the biggest problem with them, but the hit of 5.25 is acceptable. I’m not a big fan of them, but it might be my disdain for hughson buttering their bread like they are the second coming of the glitter twins. They have the talent, they would be decent additions to the team, but more likely than not, they won’t leave Vancouver.

Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!

by blindfolded tank driver on Jun 19, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

curious

There is no doubt the twins are in the top 20-30 players in the league, give or take point a game players. But investing around 20% of the payroll in two guys for 12 years raises some immediate questions.
1) is a 12 year contract not similar in substance to a NTC, for 20% of the payroll
2) they need a power play to complement them
3) who did we get rid of to pay for them (see point 2)
4) the Canucks had a pretty decent supporting cast including and choked fabulously, complete with requisite sound effects, in the real season
5) As to the normative models of building a Stanley Cup winner, If I may be so bold among my francophobe friends, The Penguin model of winning seems to include a large contingent of Quebeckers, including a part owner, which was also helpful to us in the past.

by blue with age on Jun 19, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Canucks didn’t choke, they got beaten by a better team.

by Godd Till on Jun 19, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

And then that team got demolished by an even better team. Which was eventually beaten by some other team.

If we only have the Sedins, and no Luongo (or Mats tear), what hope do we have?

by Its Cold In Here on Jun 19, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we only have the Sedins, and no Luongo (or Mats tear), what hope do we have?

Better coaching.

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Jun 19, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Luke Schenn.

Come on people, pay attention.

And JIRI NSFW

by Godd Till on Jun 19, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know about you, my definition of choke includes teams that are consistently unable to hold a lead, folding like a cheap tent after multiple goals in a short span of time.

by blue with age on Jun 19, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess the hope is that Burke is a better team builder and that Wilson is a better coach in that instance.

Kubina is $5M that I think can get moved fairly easily if the team has to.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Especially as a UFA.

BTW, I still do plan on doing a fanpost re: Kubina to the caps. I’m just petrified that I’ll write a couple thousand words about how the Caps will fit him under the cap, then that day it will be announced Nylander signed in the KHL, rendering everything I just wrote moot. So, yeah.

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Jun 19, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

heh

More incentive to do it quickly ;)

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great post, PPP

I’m quite on board with acquiring the Sedins at this cost.

But the term makes me queasy, despite the Detroit frontloading loophole. In this year’s NHL, having two $5M forwards made it very unlikely to have more than one more. If the cap doesn’t go up at least 20% in the next five years, this could start to hurt the Leafs’ ability to sign or keep front-line forwards as the Sedins fall back from front line status (somewhat like Daniel Briere). What I’m trying to say is, it puts a ‘cap’ on the quality of veteran first liners on the Leafs, and in years 6, 7 and 8 (before we get to retirement age or buyout feasibility) that quality is no longer likely to make the Leafs contenders.

Maybe it’s still a good idea; maybe the cap will go up fast enough that it makes sense. Maybe in four years they’ll still be elite forwards at a time when all of their peers are making $8M. It’s just a risk, and I’d try hard to shorten the term if I could.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Jun 19, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

in years 6, 7 and 8 (before we get to retirement age or buyout feasibility) that quality is no longer likely to make the Leafs contenders.

That’s definitely a worry but if the Leafs win the Cup in those first 5 years do we worry about those three?

Maybe it’s still a good idea; maybe the cap will go up fast enough that it makes sense. Maybe in four years they’ll still be elite forwards at a time when all of their peers are making $8M.

And it really comes down to that I think. If you believe that the cap is going to rebound enough to make $5M for secondary players palatable. They are 20% of the cap now but in 5 years hopefully that percentage will drop steadily.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s definitely a worry but if the Leafs win the Cup in those first 5 years do we worry about those three?

I want to follow the Detroit Model, and contend every year forever.

[Also see New Jersey and Anaheim (and formerly Dallas, but please don’t look there any more).]

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Jun 19, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I want to follow the Detroit Model, and contend every year forever.

Me too but even they had some growing pains between transitioning from one great team to another. Those three years might just be first round exits.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve got nothing to add to the substantive discussion, but have to give a hearty “huzzah” on the post itself. Bravo, brother.

Japers' Rink: Hockey blogging from the most powerful city in the world

by J.P. on Jun 19, 2009 3:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks buddy :)

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 19, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

WWBBD

..This will be my new mantra.

Usually it involves chewing gum, talking rather brusquely and fixing idiots with a withering stare until they cry.

by LeafFanInVan on Jun 19, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions  

don’t forget an utility belt with binoculars to observe rough housing, gm death list, and trusty pen knife!

Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!

by blindfolded tank driver on Jun 19, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said no

The money does seem about right to me, but I think I would want to top out at 7 years – even if I had to pay them a tad more.

I have a hard time giving out retirement contracts to guys in their 20’s.

All in all, an excellent well written post. Chemmy will be pissed.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 19, 2009 9:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Was it McCabe or Kubina who reneged on waiving his NTC two seasons ago at the trade deadline? I am not sure which it was,but the rumor was thatb San Jose had offered a first rounder for the player in question.Would they do that now?

by wayne scarlett on Jun 19, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Kubina

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its official, No to the Sedins
My dad, who has a creepy ability to get player signings right out of the gate said that the contract is stupid and not worth it.
he has never gotten an outcome wrong, dude even predicted Dominic Moore would do well here

Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option

by JaredFromLondon on Jun 20, 2009 9:19 AM EDT reply actions  

No to the Sedin’s is fine with me.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 20, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm late

but great fucking post Triple P.

YES TO THE SEDINS.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Jun 20, 2009 8:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Let’s be honest.

If losing in the second round of the playoffs is the be all and end all, then the Sedins would be great signings. (By the way, that’d make us Vancouver. And who wants that?)

If we want to actually, you know, win the cup, then they can get to fuck. They’re elite players in the same way Tony Blair isn’t a lying, bastarding war criminal.

We have large amounts of cap space. Why would we waste it on players who will not win us a cup? Here’s an idea. Let’s use our spending power to, I dunno, get us closer to the prize. What a fuckin’ concept, eh?

All the Sedins would do is generate revenue. In other words, prove Cox, Berger, et al, right. And, quite frankly, I can do without that crap.

"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer

by article1 on Jun 24, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions  

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