Detroit isn't that great at Drafting (and other secrets): Draft Analysis 1994-2009
Editor's Note: After months of teasing us with hints about his magical spreadsheet daoust is ready to unveil the greatest draft analysis tool ever developed.
I’ve made passing mention of it a few times, but here it is, finally… the Daoust 94-09 Draft Database and Analysis Machine. I actually pulled this together in February or March of this year, then sat on it in hopes of updating this with 08/09 stats before posting it. Unfortunately hockeyreference.com isn't cooperating, so 07/08 stats will have to do for now. It'll be updated as soon as the data's available.
I've picked out a few interesting observations and trends to discuss here, but this post isn’t really the main event. It’s the spreadsheet hosted here:
http://www.4shared.com/file/113472332/7a01746b/Draft_History_94-Present_v3.html
It’s a bit on the nerdy side, with lots of ability for custom analysis, but if that’s not your bag, at the very least having a list of draftees in excel that you can sort and filter can be handy. Sample conversation:
"Who’s the best player of the last 15 years drafted 47th overall?",
/opens spreadsheet
"Kristian Huselius, obviously".
"How about the best defenceman drafted in the 8th round"
"Kaberle"
"7th round?"
"Kubina"
Etc. Hours and hours of entertainment for everyone!
Just a note about the stats I've used to evaluate a team's draft success. I think we can all agree that "games played" alone isn't a great indicator of a successful pick - Aki Berg played 600+ games after all. But NOT playing at least 200 games is a pretty good indication that the pick didn't turn out so well. Say what you want about Aki, he worked out better than Jonathan Aitken, yes?
Points also aren’t a great indicator of draft success - defenceman, some forwards, and obviously goalies are regularly drafted without offence in mind. That being said, I think over any given period, it's probably fair to assume that each team will have the same holes to fill and will draft the same proportion of different players (scorers, goalies, stay at home D, etc) so that the total points their draft picks eventually get is at least a good indication of the team's success at drafting for offence.
Also, I should note that the spreadsheet is pretty customizable, so for all of the stats I'm showing below, you can pull the same stats for any period between 94-09 that you'd like.
And my apologies about the quality of some of the charts... converting excel charts into images and then getting them into here is easier said than done. I think you can click on them to bring up the full-sized image at least.
Observation 1 - Drafting is really really hard
The chart below summarizes all players drafted between 1996-2006, by team, showing what % made it to the NHL, what % went on to play more than 200 games, and how many points and games played each team had per every player they drafted.
Less than 10% of all players drafted between 96-06 went on to play 200 games. That's 1 in 10. Anything you can only do well 1 out of 10 times, I would classify as difficult. This chart breaks that down further by round:
So 40% of first round picks have gone on to play more than 200 games. 24% of 1st and 2nd round picks go on to play in 200 games. After that, only 5.5% do. That’s 1 in 20 players. It’s not quite a crap shoot, but it’s pretty damn close. Put another way, for every 20 post-third round draft picks traded away, only one of them will go on to play 200+ games in the NHL.
Observation 2 - 7th overall pick... Shane Doan or Lars Jonsson?
I think we're all hopeful that Burke will be succesful in his attempts to move up in the draft next week, but if he isn't, here's the type of players he can reasonably expect to pick.
Hmmm. A Shane Doan-type would be swell, and I could live with a Paul Mara or Joffrey Lupul. Let's hope we don't get a Lars Jonsson or Kris Beech.
Observation 3 - Detroit isn’t that good at drafting
I actually really like Detroit, but I'm going to pick on them here because there's just a bit too much hype about their drafting prowess for my liking. "Detroit has the best scouting department in the NHL" is one of most repeated phrases in any draft discussion, but I'm not convinced that's true. Player development? Top notch. But actually consistently drafting NHL-calibre players? Not their forte.
If you refer back to the first chart posted above, you'll notice that Detroit is DEAD LAST in 3 of the 4 categories (% that made it to the NHL, % that played 200 games, # of games played per player drafted), and 27th in the other. That’s not good. Of course, drafting 2 franchise players in the late rounds makes up for that, but when the bulk of your drafted players end up being "busts", that's not a good sign.
Here’s a look at the players Detroit drafted in the 1st round since 1994. First of all - let's count all of the first round picks in 97,99, 01,02,03,04. Oh my goodness – there are none! Where did they go? Someone must have stolen them, because the most well managed team in the history of the NHL would never trade away draft picks, esepcially first rounders, since they realize how important they are and that no team can have any success without them. Second of all - not an overly impressive bunch besides Kronwall (and weirdly, all defencemen except for last year's pick).
And here’s the full list of players Detroit drafted in 98 and 99 (the years Datsyuk and Zberg were drafted). There's no denying that they were both great late-draft steals, but given the other players selected by Detroit before and after, you could argue that they just got lucky. Really really lucky.
EDIT: A lot of people elsewhere have commented that it’s unfair to evaluate Detroit this way, since they always picked near the end of the first round. So here’s a look at how other teams did compared to Detroit with picks # 20 to 30 from 95 to 03 (to eliminate recent picks that wouldn't have had a chance to play 200 games yet).
See, it IS possible to draft well at the low end of the first round. Just not for Detroit, apparently.
Observation 4 - Drafting a D-man early... questionable?
I love the Schenn. He’s going to be an unstoppable force on the Leafs for another 15, maybe 30 years. My daughter’s first Jersey will have Schenn on the back. But recent history would indicate that if you’re looking for a bona fide stud defenceman, you’re not likely to find him in the top 10, although you will likely get yourself a very serviceable NHL-er. Here are all of the D-men drafted in the top 10 since 1994:
Pronger and Niedermayer were drafted top 5 (prior to 1994), but Lidstrom wasn’t. Neither was Chara, Boyle, Campbell, Kaberle, Markov, Green, Rafalski. I'm not saying drafting a defenceman early on is always a bad idea, but it would seem that you don't need to use a top 10 pick if you’re looking for a stud D.
Observation 5 - Drafting Goalies = Witchcraft
I think we all know this instinctively, but these numbers prove it - drafting a successful goalie is next to impossible. Between 1994 and 2004, only 6.4% of all goalies drafted went on to play 200+ games. That % is less than half of all wingers and defenceman, and less than 1/3 of all centres over the same period. If I'm ever a GM, I might never draft a goalie. Ever.
Observation 6 - 2002... the Leafs greatest draft triumph!
Let's ignore the fact that our #1 pick from 2002 (Steen) is widely considered a let down and is now playing for a different team. According to these stats, 2002 was one of the best years for the Leafs relative to the other Canadian teams, and the rest of the league. I know we'll all instinctively want to laugh at Vancouver's pathetic display, but let's remember who was running the team then. So let's laugh at Ottawa instead.
And finally... some great Top 10 Busts
We all remember the Daigles and Stefans, but here are few other disastrous top 10 picks that you may have forgotten about…
Ok, that's all I've got for now. Enjoy the spreadsheet, and be sure to let me know if you unearth any other interesting tidbits.
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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125 comments
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Comments
Still shaking my head about Volchkov…Ugh….
Ron and Fez Noon to Three
by YvonLabresMoustache on Jun 22, 2009 8:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow this is awesome.
Forwarded to all of my Detroit Fan Colleagues here at the office
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jun 22, 2009 9:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Daoust
You are everything that is right with the world.
Thank you for this.
A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...
PLAYOFFS!!!!1
by eyebleaf on Jun 22, 2009 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
On the team summary page...
The year 2007 is not available for a date range.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jun 22, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ll make the change this afternoon or tonight (depending on how work goes) and upload the revised file.
It went through a lot of iterations and revisions so i’m sure there’s more than a couple of bugs in it…
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No worries
Wasn’t complaining just trying to help out
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jun 22, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate the heads up. I’ve made the correction, the link above now links to the revised file…
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drafts are fantastic to look at in the past and it really shows how much of a crap shoot it really is.
One thing though that is left out is a few questions:
1) How good is the team at developing players — would those busts not be busts if they went somewhere else?
2) How hard was it to crack the lineup – which could stunt the growth. For example, did Detroit’s poor performance here have to do with the fact that they were so good, their prospects never had a chance to play on the team (or in the proper roles)..
Just to add to your “measuring stick” of games played and pts discussion, perhaps the best measuring stick is ice time. games of 15+ mins for a Dman and 10+ mins for a forward may be the best measuring stick.
by hallandnash on Jun 22, 2009 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just to add to your "measuring stick" of games played and pts discussion, perhaps the best measuring stick is ice time. games of 15+ mins for a Dman and 10+ mins for a forward may be the best measuring stick.
That is a good suggestion. It would definitely help quantify a bit better whether the player was an impactful player.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If i can find a way to (relatively) easily incoroporate avg TOI, i will definitely do so.
And you’re absolutely right about player development on one team vs another. There’s a tonne factors that come into play. The data can only tell you so much, but it can hopefully point you in the right direction and tell you what further questions to ask.
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been saying the same thing about Detroit
for a while.
They seem to do very well in the mid to late rouns of the draft, but they aren’t doing much to make them a zillion times better than anyone else in the early rounds. I do have to give them credit for selecting so many star caliber players though.
The other thing that needs to be pointed out with Detroit is that their development system is so good because players take a long time to make the NHL. If Kronwall, Filpulla, and Hudler had been playing for Florida, all three would have over 300 games in the NHL by now, and players like Mowers and Helm would have been in the NHL a year and a half ago. They take it slow and it works, but it also negatively impacts on the stats you’re examining.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve@Leafs.HockeyAnalysis.com on Jun 22, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very true
Detroit is a hard beast to gauge because of all these factors. But then again the same arguments can be made in reverse to some of the other organizations. I.E would so and so have made it through on another team?
The Tool is awesome to look back at the Data, but drafting really is a hard thing to qualify as there are so many variable factors from team to team.
'But I don't want to go among mad people' Alice remarked.
'Oh, you can't help that' said the Cat 'we're all mad here'.
by JohnnyG on Jun 22, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Kronwall, Filpulla, and Hudler had been playing for Florida, all three would have over 300 games in the NHL by now, and players like Mowers and Helm would have been in the NHL a year and a half ago.
Well, they might be at 300 games. They might have also flamed out.
There is definitely a lot to be said for giving players the time to adapt to the next level of hockey.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe it was the great Joe Bowen that once said (which means I’ve heard it 100 times) if Detroit was so smart why didn’t they draft Datsuk and Zetterburg in the 1st, 2nd rounds?
The bottomline is they took a chance and they got very lucky.. and they deserve the credit, but most of it was lucky.
by hallandnash on Jun 25, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they weren’t the best available and at that time not many teams had belief in europe and mostly turned to north america
by Leafsfan3113 on Jul 1, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jul 1, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just opened it
This thing is a beautiful beast!
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that’s what she said.
A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...
PLAYOFFS!!!!1
by eyebleaf on Jun 22, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think point #1 is one that a whole lot of hockey fans need to come to terms with. Nice job demonstrating just how difficult it is when you have 29 other teams full of smart, hockey-knowledgeable people trying to do the same thing you’re doing.
by David M. Getz on Jun 22, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
28 other teams… I don’t count the Islanders.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 22, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wonderful, wonderful stuff… thanks for sharing!
More fun than a stick to the face!
On the Forecheck is SB Nation's blog covering the Nashville Predators.
by Dirk Hoag on Jun 22, 2009 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have always said
Detroit’s motto should be: Draft Poorly, Develop Well. (and also sign old guys Chelios, Hull Hasek etc)
Hey PPP you should put out a press release and send this info to all the major media outlets. I think it would be fun to see if ANY mention it.
by The Meatriarchy on Jun 22, 2009 1:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Awesome
Great work with this thing. A note about the Detroit observations on their first round picks. We’ll get to see Kindl make an appearance at some point in the next year or two and McCollum is still forever and a day away from ever seeing the light of day in goal in Detroit especially with Larsson and Jordan Pearce in the system now. Detroit had a pretty bad break with Jiri Fischer’s career. Everyone else there though, especially in the mid-90s turned out very poorly.
The record of defensemen in the first round, as you noted, is particularly terrifying… Which probably guarantees that the Isles take Hedman now.
by HockeyJoe on Jun 22, 2009 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ottawa?
unfortunately, the first chart shows Ottawa doing very well in the draft. ugh. someone say something relevant to make me feel better….
I'm at every home game - see you there!
by kessticle on Jun 22, 2009 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
1993
OTT -Alexandre Daigle 1st overall, HAR-Chris Pronger 2nd overall.
A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.
by furcifer on Jun 22, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
feel better?
A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.
by furcifer on Jun 22, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
crisis averted.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah that was perfect thanks! :D :D
I'm at every home game - see you there!
by kessticle on Jun 22, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they had no choice but to play all their draft picks because they were bankrupt and couldn’t afford to pay free agents.
the same could be said for small market teams like san jose and buffalo that drafted very well. they did it out of economic necessity.
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and correct me if i’m wrong here, but this is by total games played, not necessarily with the team that drafted them.
So, in Ottawa’s case, they get credit for guys like Salo, Bonk and Hossa still. Conversely, it’s the same for every other team, so I guess that’s a non-issue.
I’ll shut up now.
If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock
by blurr1974 on Jun 22, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can't open spreadsheet file....
…on a Mac. Bummer.
by LuvthePreds on Jun 22, 2009 2:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Try Google Documents or Open Office?
by Its Cold In Here on Jun 22, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
by torontosportsmedia.com on Jun 22, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah… i’m a f8cking nerd. my wife goes out, the kid’s sleeping, and how do i use my spare time? making spreadsheets. i need help.
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First, this is beautiful. Simply beautiful. For the love of Daoust, this should be an autolink every time anyone, anywhere, types draft is a crapshoot on the Internets. (Whoa, look, it already is!).
Second, I love the defensemen review, because that’s what worries me about Hedman. He’s a freak of nature, so maybe he’ll be different, but you just never know whether an 18-year-old D-man will be otherworldly or just solid. I think I’d go with the scorer simply because scouts are better able to predict them, and when all factors are equal, this crapshoot is about playing the odds.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
by Dominik on Jun 22, 2009 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you think St. Louis would pick Eric Johnson over Toews, Staal, or even Kessel if they could do it again?
by dpatrickgray on Jun 22, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s hard to say given that Johnson sat out last season with a freak injury and the blueline is where the Blues need the most help…
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jun 22, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOOOO ERIK STAY AWAY FROM THE GOLF CART
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Jun 22, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
which was worse? His golf cart incident or Joe Sakic’s snow blower?
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jun 22, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Golf Cart
I’ve tipped carts before. They don’t just magically flip over. You have some advanced warning.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have some reason to believe it wasn’t him doing the, aah, “tipping.”
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
by Dominik on Jun 22, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oooooh share?
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jun 22, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reaaaally want to. But can’t. Nothing remarkable, but I was given the specific impression some vets and an insurance adjuster would know more details…
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
by Dominik on Jun 22, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's called
Golf Cart Bumper Cars.
www.stlouisgametime.com
by Brad Lee on Jun 22, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAY too early to tell.
I don’t get why people are making that comparison already when he spent a year in college and a year on the golf cart DL. He’s got one season of NHL evidence, on what was a miserable team.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
by Dominik on Jun 22, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding. The defenceman will always suffer from a slower start especially when they miss a year due to…uh…unstable course conditions.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They really never should have tried to play through. Damn caddy.
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
by Dominik on Jun 22, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They never saw the gopher detonating the C4
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was so cute and innocent, though! And a dancer, to boot. Who would suspect…
Lighthouse Hockey: Side effects may include Weight gain and frequent game loss.
by Dominik on Jun 22, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We asked that question
Specifically Taves vs. EJ. Voters on the site overwhelmingly stuck with Johnson. But what do a bunch of Americans wearing Cardinals jerseys with Pooholes on the back know about hockey?
www.stlouisgametime.com
by Brad Lee on Jun 22, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you should make your signature clickable, for I am lazy
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 22, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya thats what they said in 99 too when partick stefan went first overall and players like chris kelly weren’t picked until 94th and jordan leopold 44th so there goes your theory i don’t think the scouts predicted very well there on sniper or defencemen
by Leafsfan3113 on Jul 1, 2009 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic post, Daoust. Your mastery in spreadsheetery shall go down in internet history. So by my count, you’ll have to come up with another one in an hour to keep up with this title.
In either case, thanks for this – I’ll be sure to link to your post in the future.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
by bkblades on Jun 22, 2009 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Holy crap, this post got linked by Eklund in his latest blog! Big time leagues for PPP! :)
by albanada on Jun 22, 2009 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OH THANK GOD
WHERE WOULD I BE WITHOUT EKLUND
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Jun 22, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PRAISE BE TO OUR RUMOR STARTING OVERLOAD
ALL HAIL EKLUND, HERO TO ALL BLOGGERS
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Jun 22, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh
A definite departure for that site.
Wysh picked it up too. Congrats Daoust.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FINALLY WE ARE WORTHY OF EKLUND
FINALLY IT’S OUR TIME TO SHINE
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Jun 22, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm Machine is now broken. I’ll call out for repairs.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 22, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
flattered that Wysh picked it up, not sure what to make of Ek picking it up. i think it makes me feel a little bit dirty actually.
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eklund vs. Wysh, hmmmm, who’s more popular. Crap that’s a hard decision
by albanada on Jun 22, 2009 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
CONSIDERING CHANGING MY USERNAME TO “EKLUND_FAN_NUMBER1”
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Jun 22, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
getting linked by Eklund earns Daoust an E1,000,000
congrats….I guess…ugh
Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.
by SkinnyFish on Jun 22, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nuh-uh…that’s me!
A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.
by furcifer on Jun 22, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Puck Daddy crew is better, I can tell you that.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 22, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Wozniewski gone we needed a new whipping boy. Best $0.02 I’ve ever spent.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute, so Eklund reads PPP, so that’s where he gets his half-assed rumors from! It’s all your fault, Leaf Fans! He’s stealing money from innocent people just because of you!
by albanada on Jun 22, 2009 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
everybody steals everything from us
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 22, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
meh
if people are willing enough and dumb enough to give money to Eklund and his rumour dartboard then they deserve to lose their money.
A Nation of Masochists a blog dedicated to Toronto sports fans, who are continually punished but keep coming back for more.
by furcifer on Jun 22, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I don't understand
is that when Dwayne Kessel posts a fake rumor that the Blues will have a deal by Wednesday for Heatley, fans take it seriously.
www.stlouisgametime.com
by Brad Lee on Jun 22, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for this Daoust, lots of numbers here to mull over.
The first thing I took away from this is what a good job scouts, on the whole, do in projecting the top end talent.
The second chart shows that 83% of first round picks hit the mark for games played compared to 54% in the second round with diminishing returns thereafter.
It may be hard to project top end talent but it seems the scouts are doing a pretty good job of IDing NHL talent within the first 30 picks.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
by mf37 on Jun 22, 2009 5:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that’s why i think detroit’s scouting staff is (or at least was) more lucky than good. if you’re nailing your early picks AND unearthing late-round gems, then clearly you know what you’re doing. but if all you’ve got is late-round gems and a bunch of early-round busts (or at least disappointments), i don’t think your scouts are doing that great a job.
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
have you checked out Bird Watchers Anonymous post on where star NHL players are drafted? The data is limited in sheer volume (since it only tracks this year’s playoff teams), but it’s interesting to see where 1st pairing d-men and 1st line forwards are usually drafted according to ice time.
http://www.birdwatchersanonymous.com/2009/6/22/921049/where-star-level-players-are-found
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
by bkblades on Jun 22, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s apparently working on a new look at the draft too so keep an eye out (also, I will) because he’s done a lot of great work as well on the draft.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 22, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally think draft success at this level is almost completely attributable to chance, and we all just apply the hindsight bias to come up with explanations for whichever team’s front office had the best luck in whatever small sample size we happen to be dealing with.
(Dead silence.)
Um, I mean, Leafs suck! Carry on.
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Jun 22, 2009 5:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A thing of Beauty, Daoust
I am working on a spreadsheet right now that is hockey related and hopefully will be ready by Wednesday.
I was going to go it alone as I am OK with spreadsheets, but I bow to the master.
If I sent you over what I was working on, would be able to give me any pointers?
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 22, 2009 6:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sure man.
PPP – do you want to shoot him my e-mail address?
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Done.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Jun 22, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sent
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 22, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless I can figure an easier way to upload the image of the spreadsheet (I really don’t have the patience to go through what Daoust did) I won’t be putting my little analysis up any time soon.
It is a pretty cool premise, btw.
Also big time thanx to Daoust for cleaning it up and organizing it into something that is legible.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 23, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Think Daoust for all your spreadsheet needs.”
by daoust on Jun 23, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s pretty easy to get images.
- take a screenshot
- copy it into Paint
- Save the file
- upload to flickr or something similar
- click insert photo icon in fanpost editor
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 24, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of thoughts
How much is the % of NHLers to play 200+ games skewed by the fact that some of them haven’t even been in the league for 200 games?
The goalie % is probably low because you can only play one. If he’s not your franchise goalie, you probably don’t want him to play 200 games and draft a new one (or trade for). Even if you have a franchise goalie, you’ll still draft another one here or there for organizational depth
by Hansmoleman on Jun 22, 2009 8:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
of course, the more recent draftees wouldn’t have had a chance to play 200 games.
i had the same thought re: goalies. but still, 1 in 20 drafted becoming your go-to goalie is pretty bad odds.
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps games/yr is a good criteria? Figure if a player plays like 50+ games a year for a skater he’s probably a decent pick.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Jun 22, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s a good idea. i could pretty easily calculate the number of years since each player was drafted and do a calc on games played per year. it wouldn’t factor in ‘dead’ years after the player was drafted (where they didn’t play in the league) since the GP data is shown as a total, not by season. it’s still probably worth including though. look for it in version 4…
by daoust on Jun 22, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, if I would have waited a couple of days, I could have saved myself a weekend of work. Very nicely done daoust!
GM of CanesCountry.com
by Bob Harwood Waeghe on Jun 22, 2009 10:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Suggestion
Daoust, nice work, a couple of comments.
You say detroit is not so good, but, given that they had traded all their 1st rounders away, what were they expected to do? Same with TO for a few years there.
Can you total up the number of the picks themselves? IE 1 for a 1st overall pick, 248 for the 248th pick ect.. the team with the lowest number would be expected to have some benefit over a team with a higher number, then compare that ranking with the other ranking you came up with to see a representation of the teams ability based on the draft position.
Teams like the Pens and Islanders should have low scores over the past few years, and good draft histories but may not look as good as a team that can consistently nail a later round pick.
Dave
by davedejonge on Jun 23, 2009 10:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Welcome
Thanks for joining. I hope that you’ll stick around.
Teams like the Pens and Islanders should have low scores over the past few years, and good draft histories but may not look as good as a team that can consistently nail a later round pick.
And that’s where it gets into what Detroit really excels at and that is player development. If the Wings knew that their late picks were going to be stars then why risk letting them go so late in the draft? They obviously knew that there was skill there and potential but not necessarily what they have become.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 23, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your point is well made, and I’ve actually gone back and done the calculation to see what each team’s ‘average’ pick was for the 96-06 period (ie you if pick 25th, 60th, and 125th, your averavge pick is 70 - (25+60+125)/3). I’m going to include this stat on the sheet going forward.
As you’d expect, Detroit’s is the highest average pick in the league at 155. The next closest is TBay at 153, then St Louis at 144, then Toronto, Philly and Atlanta at 140. The rest of the league is between 130 and 140 (Pittsburgh 135, the Isle 132). So for Detroit this would indicate less first round picks (or later ones) which theoreticaly will hurt their overall success rate, no doubt.
But looking at it further, they have a so-so track record with their first round picks anyway, and I guess that’s the point. When you’re biggest successes are from the late rounds, to me that indicates a certain amount of luck involved, as well as exceptional player development. LIke PPP said, if they truly thought that Datsyuk or Zberg had better than a 1 in 5 chance of being a superstar, there is just no way you pass on them until the 6th or 7th round.
by daoust on Jun 23, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read this, continue on the debate
How Well Does the Draft Translate to Finding NHL Worthy Players and Making Successful Teams?
Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.
by SkinnyFish on Jun 23, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
this
is an INCREDIBLE job daoust. My every third or fourth blog post today in my google reader seems to be about the Wings drafting prowess, or lack thereof.
i’d say my hat’s off to ya, but I’m not wearing one…
Kudos nonetheless
If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way. - Homer
The Left Coast Lock
by blurr1974 on Jun 23, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks blurr. i’m surprised how many people outside of PPP saw this, and how sensitive some wings fans are. you’d think they just lost the cup final or something….
by daoust on Jun 23, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I shall smite you with the anger of 1,000 Gordie Howes.
Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.
by SkinnyFish on Jun 23, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is equivalent to the anger of one Doug Gilmour
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 23, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does that you’re going to get a restraining order on me and try to run me out of the neighbourhood?
by daoust on Jun 23, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. I’ll just kidnap you in a van with no windows and drop you off in downtown Detroit around 1 am. The locals will do the dirty work for me.
Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic association.
by SkinnyFish on Jun 24, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordie Howe doesn’t live in downtown Detroit…much less 1,000 of them.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 24, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one lives in downtown Detroit.
2008-2009 Avalanche: It's like watching a car crash.
by Drakenlot on Jun 24, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only thing that lives in downtown detroit are cockroaches and broken dreams
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 24, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
A most awesome piece of work, daoust. Well done!
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated!
by stucky on Jun 23, 2009 11:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's All Laugh At Red Wings Fans
Here’s a site that’s sent a couple hundred visits this post’s way and the reactions are quite telling. You’d think four Cups in 12 years might make you less insecure but then again they live in Detroit.
Highlights
- Thinking daoust was a Toronto journalist. No hockey journalist in this city not named Allan Ryder would do this much research.
- Dismissing it because he’s a Leafs fan. I assume every Red Wings fan stayed mighty quiet from 1955-1997.
- The fog that you imagine that their mouth-breathing is causing.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 24, 2009 5:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh Yeah
And not being able to comprehend that player development has more to do with their team than drafting because obviously the Wings didn’t think much about the guys that they took in the later rounds or they would have drafted them earlier. They call it ‘going for a home run’ but that’s bullshit because you don’t go for a home run by bunting you go for it by swinging for the fences. If they had taken Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the first three rounds then they would have been ‘going for a home run.’
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 24, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it still stands that their player development is retarded good in a lot of ways
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 24, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, but their fan development is definitely lacking.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 24, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s what’s hilarious… i’m going out of my way to compliment them on their player development, and they’re still getting their titties in a twist. god forbid someone dare say that not every single aspect of their hockey program is the best in the world.
oh, and the ‘swinging for the fences’ argument is complete horseshit.
by daoust on Jun 24, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be impressed if they took Datsyuk in the first round and Zetterberg in the second round.
That is the true essence ‘swinging for the fences’ – taking someone a lot higher than everyone else rates them because you are fairly certain they will be a great player.
Taking them in the 6th and 7th round is just plain Kaberlucky.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 24, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Testify…
And that last guy starting off with ’Trying not to be a homer(tho he misspelled that) and then ending up accusing Daoust of being a Moron.
Sure, a moron who put that information together the way he did… dude probably can’t even read it correctly.
I thought RL had a lot of idiots, the Interwebs are full of them.
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 24, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh. For a team with fans that is far more hated than any of the teams combined by far, even we Leafs fans are less sensitive than the majority of Red Wings fans.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
by bkblades on Jun 24, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think toronto fans are more hated than montreal fans?
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 26, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guaranteed. Everybody not in the GTA hates everything Toronto-related. It’s a Canadian thing.
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated!
by stucky on Jun 26, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
South of the Border, we definitely hate Montreal a lot more. Not sure if that’s a Boston thing or an American thing, though.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure!
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Jun 26, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I’m ever a GM, I might never draft a goalie. Ever.
Great stuff. I came to a similar conclusion last summer, albeit by a different path.
by Kent Wilson on Jun 25, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
great analysis. i’ve modified my sheet to include a tab that allows you to see position and success by round, and like you concluded, goalie success seems to be almost completely independent of where they are drafted, with only a small advantage to those drafted in the first round.
by daoust on Jun 25, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This should have been titled
“Detroit Fans are not that great at taking criticism”
or
“Detroit Fans can’t read or write real good”
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jun 26, 2009 12:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
im a leafs fan but you can’t deny that detroit has the best scouts in the league and best management otherwise we wouldn’t be talking about them right now and they would have never won so many cups…. also the d men you found in the top ten were all pretty good d-men and have mostly had long careers, and had long careers i don’t see your logic unless you can prove that the defencemen out of the top ten have been better in plus/minus, career games, points…….. you based that on your opinion rather than proof
by Leafsfan3113 on Jul 1, 2009 2:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Detroit has the best player development in the league by a mile.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jul 1, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wouldnt say best scouts in the NHL, unless the GMs dont start listening to them till the 5th round
Because Taking The Leafs Seriously Is Not An Option
by JaredFromLondon on Jul 1, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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