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The cost of truculence, an opposing view.

Let me start by saying that Iappreciate everyone that takes the time to post their opinions on this site, whether I agree or disagree with those opinions. I'll have to say that it is a rare occurrence indeed when a person can actually partake in civil discourse on the Internet, particularly with a subject that can get as heated as sports can. Now, with that being said I would like to take another look at MF37's post  (http://bitterleaf.blogspot.com/2009/07/price-of-truculence.html) and share with you a possible alternative outcome.

I feel as though that maybe MF37 is making too much out of the penalty minutes that Orr, Exelby, and Komisarek have had in the past. MF37 does make the point that:

"(it does not mean that) it’s a given that the Leafs are going to lead the league in penalty minutes or that there’s some sort of linear progression or predictive model here".

but MF37 does suggest that there will be an increased number of penalty minutes next season. It's true that this possibility exists, and in my mind is a guarantee, but let me paint you a picture of an alternative. Yes, the Maple Leafs have signed three truculent players to the roster to the tune of a combined 434 penalty minutes in a single season, but consider this: these are players that had a particular "role" on three separate teams. This role, as we all know, was basically to to be the tough and testosterone type players that Burke is attracted to. No surprises yet, right?

Now consider what the other teams in the league may think. Let's look at the Habs in particular. Let's say that on ice we have the physically fearsome (sarcasm just dripping off of that) Lollipop Guild line for the Habs, and for examples sake, the Leafs have Montreal's most loved player on the ice, Grabovski. It's going to take just one cheap shot to him or any of the other smaller guys before any one of our three newly acquired Habsmashers come in and make them pay for it (they may be the Lollipop Guild but they're going to find Tootsie Rolls in their briefs). Yeah, maybe one penalty is taken after that, but I also would imagine that the other teams are going to start thinking twice or maybe three times before they start anything with any member of the Leafs squad. I think that just the potential of having one of these guys checking you so hard that you fly out of your gear is going to make opposing players just a tad bit more honest. In the long run I think the addition of these players will minimize the injuries that our "skill" players receive, and also reduce the amount of time that they will spend in the box for having to defend themselves. On top of all that a more solid defensive defense corp will let those skill players concentrate more in the opposite end of the rink and not worry so much about their own end.

It's my feeling that Orr, Exelby, and Komisarek provide a sort of insurance for the other Leaf players, opening up the game so they can do what they're all signed to do: score, and entertain. Eventually the reputation will proceed the Leafs that they are not a team to be trifled with, and our truculent players won't even necessarily have to be as truculent as they were towards the beginning of the season. That means they probably won't be taking as many penalties, and the overwhelming concern for the PK isn't as overwhelming. My prediction is that there will be an initial spike in penalties that will drop fairly dramatically as the season continues.

Another note: unless I am mistaken, the majority of the PIM that Orr, and Exelby received were Fighting majors that ordinarily don't create an uneven strength situation. Both fighters generally end up in the sin bin for the same amount of time. Komisarek in comparison had more lazy or hurtful penalties, and not fights, but there is also the consideration though that Komisarek didn't exactly play on a team that had any other player that was as truculent as he, thus assigning him that "role" on the club. Plus according to MF37's post; Komisarek led the Habs with short handed time on ice, which as is pointed out in the article is a step in improving the PK situation.

I'm going to hope that I'm not out of line in saying this, but maybe MF37 (and others too) need not be so bitter, and as much as they see the glass half empty with this years Leafs, they can stop and take the time to see it as half full too. Do I expect miracles this year? No, absolutely not, but I am currently putting my faith in Burke's plan and am hoping that the rebuild that has worked for him before, works for Toronto too.

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Not to mention

The 94 PIM that will be subtracted by Kubina leaving.
And the 15 hitting from behind majors Hollweg somehow wrapped up in the 25 games he played for us.

by lordosis on Jul 3, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just to Help Along the Discussion, Here's The Breakdown Of Their Penalties (Nhl.com)

Exelby – 120 PIMS – 30 minor penalties, 6 majors, 3 misconducts
Orr – 193 PIMS – 24 minor penalties, 19 majors, 4 misconducts, 1 game misconducts
Komisarek – 121 PIMS – 53 minor penalties, 1 major, 1 misconduct

Half of Exelby’s penalties were majors/misconducts, 3/4s of Orr’s were majors/misconducts. Komisarek seemed to take almost exclusively minors. That’s worrisome, but hopefully we can cut those down.

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Jul 3, 2009 10:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wilson does hate the ticky tacky minors. Hooking seems to drive him catatonic. He sees that as the epitome of laziness.

If our team does who up in better shape, maybe those will go down. I don’t really see it happening from Orr, but yes, perhaps XLB (I do like that nickname…) and Joe. Orr was brought in to fight, we all know that. He’s also making significant $ to do so. Not sure how that carrot motivates him. Will he try to round out his game like Domi did (try I mean…) in his latter years or will he up the ante and go berserk?

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oops

should say “does show up” not “does who up”

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All I want from Orr

is a responsible game and that he drops the mitts when necessary, nothing more, nothing less.

by lordosis on Jul 3, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, Wilson was pretty outspoken about how he did not like how Hollweg failed to hit cleanly and how he fought stupidly sometimes so I hope he sits Orr down and explains that it’s all about timing.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like that there are enough Orr hits out there that are open ice. Seems to me he uses his body rather well.

Hollweg, due to his size, couldn’t take guys out open ice, so utilized the boards and speed to apply checks.

Also, weg’s not too bright…

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Minors can get cut down. They are usually a function of either tiredness or laziness. If Wilson can beat that out of them then they might not have a big impact.

Majors aren’t a big worry because presumably someone on the other side is going off as well.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, it doesn’t say what those minor penalties were for, whether they were the ticky-tack stick infractions, or if he just managed to pick up a lot of coincidental roughing minors or anything like that. But I think we’d all like to see that stat drop a little.

Resident Capologist

by clrkaitken on Jul 3, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They are usually a function of either tiredness or laziness.
If Wilson can beat that out of them

If Wilson is beating it out of them all the time, won’t they just be more tired? :) Or does he like "killing them softly? Inquiring minds…………

"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09

by kidkawartha on Jul 3, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More tired at first but then they’ll be more alert for fear of catching another beating

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bertrand Russell:

Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.

That sounds about right.

"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09

by kidkawartha on Jul 3, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I like that.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously, no one (either in the post above or elsewhere) is really suggesting one extreme or the other will play out.

History tells me that the Leafs take a lot of penalties, and do poorly killing them. It also suggests that the Habs were absolutely ridiculous on the power play.

I don’t believe for one second that just because our guys are bigger, the opposition, Habs or otherwise, is going to hide in the dressing room, quivering. It’s a nice thought, but not based in reality.

The Leafs will be playing against teams that have faced our new players countless times before. They know what they’re getting into. At minimum, we remain about the same in the penalties taken category. The bad news is we’ve not really added anyone who can kill of those minutes with any incremental degree of success.

So long story short. Yes the Leafs got bigger. Not one team will blink at that fact. We will take lots of penalties, and unless Burke adds some gritty forwards to help on the kill, we’re going to get lit up.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 10:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, and even average goaltending would help, which we obviously did not have last year. That alone will go a long way towards cutting down on goals against, and thus improving our PK.

by lordosis on Jul 3, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

truth

could go a long way…

of course, we’ve got nothing signed on that front either.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yet

and I’m not even counting on the Monster at this point, in terms of him even signing with us, or if he does him playing any better than CuJo or Pogge did (though I hope and pray he does).

I just hope Toskala can regain his form, whatever that may be, because there’s no way he’s as bad as he was last year.

by lordosis on Jul 3, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

two words to give us hope

Francois Allaire

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nope

All we have is hope that two groin surgeries will improve Toskala…

Start panicking.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think Gustavsson’s signed anywhere yet – he might be helpful. As well, if Burke is able to get his hands on either-or-both of Beauchemin and Moen, that would help on the PK significantly.

by Blue and White Expat on Jul 3, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is definitely still a lot of work. On Mirtle’s G&M podcast last night they were talking about how they heard Moen was a lock to sign with the Leafs.

Beauchemin would be huge and Komisarek led the 11th ranked PK in minutes played so those are all baby steps. It starts in goal though.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moen, Beauchemin, Gustavsson would be an enormous culture change. The Leafs wouldn’t have the offense to compete but they’d definitely have the D.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Jul 6, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bill Waters was saying last weekend that Toskala’s recovery is ahead of schedule.

by wayne scarlett on Jul 3, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, last year they had a marked decrease in the number of penalties that they took which I attribute solely to Wilson’s new discipline and McCabe leaving.

Based on the terrible PK save percentage if the Leafs had not been more disciplined they would have given up about 800 goals.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes they improved.

in overall penalties called against, where were we? My gut says top 5. any other number is a lie. :)

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because I messed it up the first time...

The Leafs were SH the 25th most times in 2008-2009. (ie 6th fewest)
The Leafs were SH the 17th most times in 2007-2008
The Leafs were SH the 11th most times in 2006-2007
The Leafs were SH the 24th most times in 2005-2006

I am just as stunned as everyone at reading that.

So the Leafs have improved greatly after falling off hard under Maurice.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately, the number of times shorthanded is a little misleading because we were so atrocious on the penalty kill.

Good that we aren’t taking as many penalties, bad that we are allowing so many goals when we take them.

"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jul 3, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it shows that the Leafs improved in the ‘taking dumb minors’ category.

Now they need to improve the PK. That starts with the goalies, Colin Stuart might help, Komisarek might help, Moen/Beauchemin if they are signed would help too.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LIES!

"If you are going through hell, keep going." Sir Winston Churchill, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...

by blurr1974 on Jul 3, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I find that hard to believe,that they were the 6th least penalized team last season.Maybe it is just me,but it sure felt like they were being picked on a lot more than that stat would suggest.

by wayne scarlett on Jul 3, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Straight from NHL.com.

Note, it’s Times Shorthanded not penalties so that wouldn’t count coincidental minors, majors, or misconducts.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Think they patch things up with Domenic Moore? He did okay on the PK didn’t he?

by wayne scarlett on Jul 3, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please no. The Leafs are finally free of players I hate (I can forgive Komikazi!!!1) so please don’t bring him back.

A Nation of Masochists TRUCULENCE isn't just a word, it's a way of life.

by furcifer on Jul 3, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s true that the Leafs played a much more disciplined game under Wilson than they have in a long time.

But there are two inescapable facts in play here:
1) the Leafs have been dreadful on the PK for four years and other than Komisarek they have not added any pieces to address this long-standing shortcoming.
2) the Leafs will take more penalties with this new line-up

If you add those two together it equals lots of goals against.

You can call me bitter or claim that I’m a glass half-empty kind of guy, but I tend to think of it as realism.

Just as Nash will not sign with the Leafs, Kubina will not (and did not) land the Leafs Armstrong and a pick, Kaberle will not yield anything approximating the Pronger haul, if you’re going to build a team to play smash mouth hockey, you need to have a stellar PK or you’re going to lose a lot of games due to poor special teams play.

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Jul 3, 2009 5:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that the biggest driver is the goaltending. If Toskala is actually healthy or if Gustavsson signs then that’s a big step.

Stuart is also supposed to be good on the PK and yesterday’s G&M podcast mentioned that Moen was basically on his way (for what it’s worth).

There is more work to be done definitely.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think rather than gunning for a goal scorer, the Leafs are better off signing a few short-term vets that can contribute on the PK. At the risk of getting laughed out of here, Radek Bonk might be a great candidate for Burke. Moen would be nice too.

Toskala has had two years in Toronto and his PK sv% is .840 and .847. Unless his off-season surgery was overseen by Oscar Goldman, I don’t think the solution to the Leafs woeful PK is going to be found in nets.

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Jul 3, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

a) Hopefully being the aggressor will cause other team’s to take more passive/lazy/reactionary/undisciplined penalties and we’ll be on the powerplay more often, rather then vice versa.
b) Can penalty killing be taught? 2 years ago San Jose had the best PK in the league. Ron Wilson can teach if his players can learn.
c) Your penalty killing is only going to be as good as your best penalty killer, who happens to be your goalie, who happens to be Vesa Toskala, so if the Leafs are going to improve in that area, a lot of it depends on the Vesa. The Leafs haven’t had a goalie who routinely steals sure goals away from the opposition, but the league’s best goalie’s do that, and often the best chances for that come shorthanded.
d) Not Bonk. Not ever, for any reason, ever. Never Bonk.

by general borschevsky on Jul 3, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bonk

You know, if he had not come with such huge expectations and a ridiculous goal celebration he would be a nice little player.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If not Bonk, Manny Maholtra, who’s a UFA centre, had a helluva defensive season last year. Good on the faceoff dot too.

There is one downside though, if the Leafs sign him eyebleaf may use up the world’s supply of exclamation marks.

Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...

by mf37 on Jul 3, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

better find an alternative source of exclamation marks.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jul 3, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What country to invade?

/5 days later

by Clawson on Jul 8, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Spain!

They have upside down exclamation marks too!!! ¡¡¡

A Nation of Masochists TRUCULENCE!! It's not just a word. It's a way of life.

by furcifer on Jul 9, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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