Leafs defense - the best in the league?
by kessticle on Jul 7, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
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PrintOk so let's be honest - the headline was designed to get your attention. BUT this is something that really warrants some debate! With the recent acquisition of Beauchemin, and the departure of contract busts such as Pavel Kubina ($5M) and Bryan McCabe ($5.75M), the Leafs may have the best defence core in the league. If you disagree with me about that, then at least look at the bang we're getting for our buck in Leafs Nation. I'm way too lazy to seek out the contracts of every team - I'll leave that to the pro bloggers (this is my first FanPost and I have to nap still before my hockey game tonight). But with Kaberle ($4.25M), Komisarek ($4.5M), Beauchemin ($3.8M), Schenn ($1.25M cap hit) and a healthy Van Ryn ($3.35M), is there a stronger core in the league with such value? The only blemish on this list is Finger ($3.5M).
I'll post the Leafs as well as the other Top 10 teams in Goals Against and their defence core in 2008-2009. At the bottom, the Leafs top 11 defencemen (and prospects) for 2009-2010. I included Jeff Finger because he's getting paid at an elite level (for some reason). I think the Leafs new defence is among the best. (Edit: goaltending of course played a part in the defensive success of more than a few of these teams. I acknowledge this.) (Re-edit: LEAFS HAVE THE MONSTER NOW! SO ADD THAT TO THE DEFENSE!!)
#30 Leafs (2008-2009)
Ian White
Luke Schenn
Jeff Finger
Tomas KaberlePavel Kubina
Jay Harrison
#10 Florida PanthersJay Bouwmeester
Steve Eminger
Bryan McCabe
Karlis Skrastins
Keith Ballard
Jassen Cullimore
#9 Columbus Blue Jackets
Mike Commodore
Fedor Tyutin
Rostislav Klesla
Marc Methot
Jan Hejda
Aaron Rome
#8 Carolina
Joni Pitkanen
Dennis Seidenberg
Joe Corvo
Tim Gleason
Anton Babchuk
Niclas Wallin
#7 Vancouver
Willie MitchellMattias Ohlund Kevin Bieksa
Alexander Edler
Sami Salo
Shane O'Brien
#6 New York Rangers (ok this is a damn good core if you ignore Redden - especially if you add Ryan McDonagh)
Marc Staal
Daniel Girardi
Wade Redden
Michal Rozsival
Derek Morris
Paul Mara
#5 Chicago Blackhawks
Duncan Keith
Brent Seabrook
Brian Campbell
Niklas Hjalmarsson
Cam Barker
Matt Walker
#4 New Jersey Devils
Paul Martin
Mike Mottau
Johnny Oduya
Colin White
Niclas Havelid
Andy Greene
#3 San Jose Sharks
Christian Ehrhoff
Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Dan Boyle
Rob Blake
Douglas Murray
Brad Lukowich
#2 Minnesota Wild (cool side note - did not make playoffs!)
Kim Johnsson
Martin Skoula
Marek Zidlicky
Nick Schultz
Marc-Andre Bergeron
Kurtis Foster
#1 Boston Bruins
Dennis Wideman
Zdeno Chara
Aaron WardSteve Montador
Mark Stuart
Andrew Ference
Interesting to note - the Penguins were #18, and the Red Wings were # 19, so great goals against doesn't necessarily win cups, but still it sure helps not to be #30.
Toronto Maple Leafs Defence 2009-2010 (let me know if I missed an obvious prospect - does Carl Gunnarsson have a chance I don't know his deal):
Mike Komisarek
Luke Schenn
Tomas Kaberle
Francois Beauchemin
Mike Van Ryn
Garnet Exelby
Ian White
Anton Stralman
Phil Oreskovic
Jay Harrison
Jeff Finger
That is a pretty elite core of defenceman if you ask me.
Go Leafs Go
Zack
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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So glad that Schenn is going to get to learn from Beauchemin.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Goaltending
That’ll be a massive issue. In Raycroft’s first year with the Leafs the team was 7th in shots against but it didn’t matter because Raycroft stunk and, in part, they gave up really good chances.
Defensively the group is strong. I wonder how many points they can put up especially if Kaberle is moved.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
note to readers
Calgary now has Bouwmeester. but last year they weren’t even in the top 10 with Phaneuf, Regehr and Kipprusoff. so now i suppose time will tell.
Jesus didn’t need a brother to be great. Neither does Luke Schenn.
Kipper’s big problem is that as his workload has increased his sv% has fallen.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Jul 6, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting post
It’ll come down to the ice though. The Leafs’ defence has potential there but we’ll see how they mesh especially if Kaberle gets moved.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
yeah…without Kaberle, the core will be tougher and more defensively solid as a whole, but I imagine offensive will be at a premium from defense next seaon. A lot of pressure on White and Stralman (if he gets a chance).
Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!
by blindfolded tank driver on Jul 6, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem the Canucks ran into in the playoffs was that their crew could all block shots, take the body, etc. but none of them could make a pass to save their lives.
I can see that being an issue…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
it will be…I think that while Kaberle is still the best and most likely piece to be moved, I know Burke is eager to keep the only consistent puck moving d-men the team has. I assume it will take something epic to make him pull the trigger. Puck moving defensemen don’t grow on trees
Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!
by blindfolded tank driver on Jul 6, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
that’s why i think Kaberle won’t be moved.
Jesus didn’t need a brother to be great. Neither does Luke Schenn.
I would not be shocked if splodeybones 2.0 and White’s moustache are the ones gone first.
Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!
by blindfolded tank driver on Jul 6, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Finger
I’ll never get the Finger-bashing I see on here, he’s a solid D and got a contract that the market dictated. I’m certain if the Leafs hadn’t signed him for that amount, someone would have. He’s not flashy, he plays solid positional play and is tough to play against.
I watched a lot of Canucks/Avs games and was always impressed by him long before the Leafs got him. He’s by no means a bust or a drag on the cap figures.
Finger is what he is. Since he doesn’t put up points there’s nothing tangible for fans to point to but if he gets more time in an offensive role he can make that contract look good.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
I agree...
both with Finger and Kubina. As a defensive D-man Finger did all that was asked of him last year. Remember that it was his first year with a new team, new coach, and with all the injuries on D I’m not sure any of the D-men ever got comfortable with their playing partners. If you want Finger gone, fine…just let him play most of the season, let everyone see how solid he actually is and get something for him at the deadline.
I never really understood all the Kubina bashing either. He had his defensive lapses and wound up cycling the puck in the offensive zone from time to time for some reason, but overall was a good player. He scored some big goals, blocked shots, was tough and was liked and respected enough to wear an A on his sweater. I for one think his trade was more of a salary dump on Burke’s part. I certainly don’t think we got players equal to what Kubby brought to the table in return.
Is it October yet?
stick up for myself
my stance on Finger and Kubina is not that they’re bad defensemen. It’s that they didn’t (in my opinion) live up to their contracts. Finger is a solid D-man, but do you really think he would have commanded $3.5M on the open market? I agree – there is nothing tangible for Leafs fans to point to, but i played defense my whole life and was a defensive defensiveman my whole life so I tend to notice outstanding defensive play. I will however keep my eyes open to Finger a bit more this year and will post on here with an apology to him if he impresses.
Kubina didn’t live up to $5M a year in my estimation, although he was on a shitty team. I’m told his leadership abilities are great, and he won a Stanley Cup with Tampa. Perhaps he’s better on another team. My problem isn’t really with his $5M/year, because I think he’s worth at least $4M anyway so he’s not terribly overpaid. I just preferred his $5M to leave so we could put that towards 2 skilled but not necessarily overpaid players. and looking now, we just took $5M and turned it into Beauchemin ($3.8M) and Gustavsson ($900K)
Jesus didn’t need a brother to be great. Neither does Luke Schenn.
I see where you’re coming from, and perhaps “bashing” was too strong a word. I do agree that there isn’t really a spot for Finger on this year’s team (barring injury), but hopefully he can be moved for something in return. Having him backing up Kubina and Kaberle last year (I think he was picked up before the McCabe for MVR trade?) was definitely not a bad plan on Cliffy’s part. Might be easy to forget how tragically thin the Leafs blue line was just a season ago!
I have no issue over Finger, although is now amongst a squad of more defense first d-men than last year. Finger is getting top 4 d money, and last year played to that expectation on a poor defensive team. Now with the defensive upgrades (Beauchemin, Komisarek, even Exelby, despite I don’t dare think he better than Finger) and with Kubina out, I’m not sure it has guaranteed a full time role for Finger. If he earns it, not just the money, the spot and the team makes a little space for him to play, than he sticks. Otherwise why is depth a bad thing?
Mee-Mee-Meep Meep Go Leafs Go Meep Meep! MEEP!!!
by blindfolded tank driver on Jul 7, 2009 7:49 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re right. Our D has certainly moved up in the world, and compares favourably to several teams on that list. I see a lot of similarities between our D and those of New Jersey (the closest comparison) and Boston (minus Chara).
But for my money, the best defence in the league is still Detroit’s
Lidstrom – Rafalski – Kronwall – Stuart – Ericsson – Lebda – Meech
All range from elite to competent offensively. While Lidstrom & Rafalski are better known for their offence, they’re both very skilled defensive players. Stuart is a mean, nasty SOB who would fit right in with our crew, while Kronwall is one of the most devastating open-ice hitters today, and is quickly evolving into the Swedish Scott Stevens. And the pipeline is quite full with youngsters Ericsson, Lebda & Meech.
The scariest part of that D? Imagine how much better they would be if it wasn’t for Fischer’s heart problem… Yikes
Resident Capologist
exactly
we can’t touch Detroit for quality of defense. Nobody on our roster is in the same stratosphere as Lidstrom. Kabby is comparable to Rafalski although maybe not quite as good defensively. Nobody hits like Kronwall. Although I also think our guys are better than Stuart. But Ericsson has also already shown more promise than any Leafs drafted d-man other than Schenn.
Damn, Detroit develops well at every position – except goal.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jul 7, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
troubles in net
yeah i’m sure their ranking in Goals Against was mostly due to an off-year by Osgood.
Jesus didn’t need a brother to be great. Neither does Luke Schenn.
Every single one of Kronwall’s hits is charging. He leaps off his feet and elbows people in the head it’s unreal.
Ask SkinnyFish he won’t disagree.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_sHnm-tn7s
Notice how in every hit he pops up?
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Chemmy speaks the truth. The man goes airborne for every hit.
Wings fan by birth. Leafs fan by empathetic osmosis.
wow
well I’d still take him. He has my undying love for taking out Havlat.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jul 7, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It also helps to inflate your assists when you’re passing the puck to a Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Hossa etc. I’m a huge Lidstrom fan, but even I’ll say he gets a bit overrated in Detroit, think of the quality of players he has played with through his career. And with his age he is starting to show his weaknesses in the defensive zone a bit more. Nobody’s perfect!
Sure Kronwall had 51 pts, but he was also only a +2. There’s a price to pay when you miss those big (and mostly dirty) hits.
Detroit’s PK % was ranked 25th last year and the Goals Against has already been mentioned. You can’t hang all of that on Osgood.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick!"
And with his age he is starting to show his weaknesses in the defensive zone a bit more. Nobody’s perfect!
I think you’ve got that the other way around. Lidstrom’s weaknesses in the defensive zone are starting to show his age.
Nobody’s ever going to confuse him with Scott Stevens, but in his prime his defensive posture was pretty much always perfect. The guy simply didn’t make mistakes in his own end. I think it’s just that he’s in his late 30s now, and physically he’s lost a step, and that’s what is causing his perceived slippage in his own end.
I’m not even going to consider a Brodeur-like argument regarding Lidstrom’s teammates. Nik Lidstrom is the best defenceman of my lifetime (24 years). I will not argue about this.
Resident Capologist
What?
Better than Bill Root?
Seriously though, Paul Coffey? Maybe his prime is slightly before your time.
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 7, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Paul Coffey gets no respect. Easily one of my fave non-Leafs all time.
"I'm not surprised in anything that has happened." - Brian Burke
by blindfolded tank driver on Jul 7, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
ahhh
I can’t even fathom anyone saying that Lidstrom doesn’t deserve his reputation. I’d take him on the Leafs in a heartbeat, at any age. Please do not try to say he’s overrated anywhere.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jul 7, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Never said he doesn't deserve his reputation.
Just to be clear, I put Lidstrom in my top 5 d-men all-time, so I’m certainly not saying he doesn’t deserve his reputation. But to try and say the quality of his teammates did not boost his statistical production is silly.
The same argument that says JayBo and Luongo were underrated because they played for Florida is the same argument that Lidstrom is not a tad bit overrated. Sometimes people can be so “underrated” they end up “overrated”.
@clrkaitken – I’m sorry you weren’t born a few years earlier, then you’d have a healthy debate between Lidstrom and Bourque. :)
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick!"
I’m a huge Lidstrom fan, but even I’ll say he gets a bit overrated in Detroit, think of the quality of players he has played with through his career.
That seems to be questioning his reputation…. I would say that no matter where he ended up, he would still have been a great defenseman. Don’t forget, Stevie Y didn’t start out as the player he ended up being.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jul 8, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
He would be a great defenseman anywhere, but my point all along is his statistical production would probably not be. It’s not questioning his reputation to realize that belonging to an organization dedicated to winning every year and having a great development system has it’s advantages.
My original response was more about Detroit’s entire 1-6 defense corps being untouchable by our current one. My opinion is that 1 through 6 we match up fairly well, because I believe the considerable losses with Lidstrom in theirs are made up for quite well with the defensive depth in ours. Once you get past the bright light of Lidstrom that is.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick!"
Stralman is our comparable here.
He has similar ratios in a shorter career to Ericsson, plus he’s younger. IMO he’s shown the same if not more promise than Ericsson.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick!"
if only we had a Lidstrom-like defenseman to mentor him.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jul 8, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
hahaha
nice.
I’m actually half expecting Zubov to sign in Vancouver.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jul 9, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
i would take Zubov....
you wouldn’t?
Jesus didn’t need a brother to be great. Neither does Luke Schenn.
nah
I’d rather keep Kaberle. The Leafs need to stop signing over the hill players.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Jul 9, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree keep Kaberle, but Zubov could be a cheap offensive defenceman. depends if he agrees that he’s over-the-hill. he’s younger than Lidstrom. 38 turning 39.
Jesus didn’t need a brother to be great. Neither does Luke Schenn.
Kabs is a keeper
Zubov is looking a little geriatric in mine eye.
Besides, whose to say that Beauchemin isn’t going to peak OFFENSIVELY this year as he steps from the ominous shadows that are Pronger and Niedermayer?
"the usefulness of a cup, is in it's emptiness"
by Maniel Darois on Jul 10, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He's not over the hill..
He couldn’t make it over the hill, his hip gave out halfway up the hill, if anything he’s curled up in a ball at the bottom of the hill.
You’d need a wheelbarrow or some kind of gantry crane to get him over the hill these days.
They have invented a new term: “bottom of the hill” to denote those players that can’t even get over the hill due to a debilitating injury.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick!"
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