In the Time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 5:00 AM EDT
in From The Branches
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PrintAs a few of us discussed yesterday, there are a few"dark horse" teams in the East this season. Why can't the Leafs be one of them? How much better is the rest of the conference that we should resign ourselves to another season of losing? And then it hit me...
Why am I asking myself questions?
- Steve has a look at the missing C for the Leafs.
- The voting continues at TSM. For Kaberle, Burke, and all of us, Saturday is the day of reckoning.
- Down Goes Brown uses his league sources to obtain a copy of the NHL's new marketing plans.
- TML Nation wonders if more credit is due to Dave Nonis. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...
- ...and start paying attention to Ilya Kovalchuk. TML Nation is, and they're hoping Burke is as well.
- TML Central doesn't see a "Detroit Model" coming from the Leafs current direction. Is that a bad thing?
- Is "PLAYOFFS!!!1" an insane rally call, or sorta, kinda, maybe in the cards for the Leafs? More at TO Sports (with a kinda NSFW pic...)
- Remember all the ridiculous things you liked as a teenager? Sens fans revel in that...
- Are Doug Gilmour's Kingston Frontenacs that bad? Out of Left Field says yes.
- Lastly, for the iCal peeps, the NHL schedule in iCal format.
UPDATE
- The boy wonder, jrwendelman, gives us 10% of the Patrick Kane brouhaha
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My two cents on Twenty Cent. Spare a caption for a fellow whose down on his luck?
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Oops “whose”=“who’s”.
Haven’t had a cup of tea yet this morning, and the results are evidently catastrophic.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
added!
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
“boy wonder” ?
/checks birth certificate, assumes JFJ is doing the math.
Thx, blurr!
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 12, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
:)
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Butane in my veins and Im out to cut the junkie!
Gotta love the Beck classics!
Also, I think its safe to say the Leafs will likely slide into 7-10th in the conference safely. Hopefully playoffs!!!1
Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!
by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 12, 2009 7:47 AM EDT reply actions
I love your new Sig.
PLAYOFFS!!!1
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
goaltending...
will decide it all.
Skater-wise, I don’t see how you could possibly argue the leafs are bottom feeders. But like it or not we have two question marks in goal — Can Vesa find his form, and does the Monster have NHL form in the first place?
I either one can put up a SVP above .905 or .910 or so then I think the team’s going to win a lot more than anyone thinks. Absolute ceiling is probably 2nd in the division, so what’s that, like, 4th? 5th? Buffalo and Ottawa are darkhorses in the NE, but I’m pleased to predict bad things for Les Habitants.
If I had to bet I’d say 7th-to-10th sounds right
I know
that the Leafs were 10th in scoring last year, but they also faced a lot of backup goaltenders (stats anyone?) and I wonder how they’ll fare if teams take them a little more seriously and start playing their premier goalies against them.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
god i hate that “backup goalie” argument
Is it said anywhere that they scored most of their goals against backups? or starters?
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
you don’t think it holds water? I’d have to think that it has something to do with it
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
it probably holds some water, but then you have to think about who is a backup and who is a starter? Who was Colorados starter last yer? The Islanders?
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
It's kinda unfair
Since backups still have legit numbers in many cases.
They aren’t necessarily crappier netminders. The fact that we played the likes of Manny Fernandez, Scott Clemmensen, and Johan Hedberg regularly doesn’t really mean we scored a lot more than we would have against Thomas, Brodeur, and Lehtonen.
In fact, Brodeur looked outright bad against the Leafs, Thomas had some average nights against us, and Lehtonen is injury prone and overweight… so I don’t think it matters much.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying...
The Leafs will move to 30th in the league in scoring if they face top-tier tending this year. I do however think that there is something to be said for the quality of netminding we faced last year and I’m curious what the effect will be.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
not to mention backups (especially islanders and rangers backups for some reasons) have been nigh on un beatable when playing the leafs
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yes. Every goalie has ‘those nights’ but I still think it likely works out in the wash over the course of 82 games.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Ok fine.
You guys are MAKING ME LOOK IT UP… sigh
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
+
I get to post an article about it and such… ty for the idea.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
indeed, good goalies had bad nights, and bad goalies had good nights
i dont see how that helps the argument that because they faced backups they scored more goals
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t trying to improve my argument, I was trying to downplay yours. You said that “backups have been nigh unbeatable against the leafs”. Sometimes true, sometimes not true.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
I know, and in turn you downplayed your own argument. If a backup can sometimes play incredible, then it is quite likely that the starter can get blown out and let in 7 goals
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
but less likely because they’re a starter. The reason they are starters is because they are the best goalie a team has. Am I missing something here…?
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Here it goes
Ok the Leafs lost 13 games last season to backup goalies.
Here are who the backups were:
Jaroslav Halak (3 times?)
Stephen Valiquette,
Kari Ramo,
Mike McKenna,
Craig Anderson,
Johan Hedberg,
Manny Legace,
Michael Leighton,
Brent Johnson,
Bryan Elliot,
Manny Fernandez
Ok so – of that group, I’d say Anderson, Fernandez, Halak, Legace, Johnson, and Hedberg are decent netminders. Elliot is pretty good also. Either way, I don’t think they were losing to backups who were atrocious.
As for winning over backups? Working on that now.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
again, its all relative. When playing a goalie like Luongo he is more likely to shut you out than playing Justin Pogge. But how about Playing Thomas? his numbers (as pointed out yesterday) arnt all too spectacular. Or what if a team has a goalies number like the Leafs often do on Brodeur. Or Colorado where Raycroft was their starter for a good portion of the year.
Hell at several times last year Gigurer was the back up for the Ducks.
im just saying it is prett friggen complicated and without the numbers of how many goals the leafs scored on each goalie (steve?) it is anything but an easy answer
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
surprising this wasn't popular
RAYCROFT!!!1
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
I don’t think we’ll get a definitive answer on it. All I’ll do is appeal to the law of large numbers and say that eventually you will notice a difference. The size of that difference is up for debate and again, I never claimed the leafs would fall to 30th in league scoring. But where are they? 12th? 15th?
I would even say that basing Leaf figures against the goalie that started is nearly meaningless because who’s to say the backup/starter wouldn’t have played better/worse than the goalie that started that particular night. But eventually, over 82 games, talent tells and that’s why I think it matters.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
agreed, also, a team is probably more likly to suit up their back up when you have 4 20 goal scorers than one 50 goal scorer
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm trying to determine that now
Give me 10 minutes.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s going to be more complicated than that Steve. You’ll need to find their teams’ goals against per game and create some kind of multiplier in order to normalize the numbers. Otherwise you’re getting a skew from strong defensive teams one way or the other.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
I think
we might be on to something here.
The Moneyball of hockey if you will.
Who’s writing the book?
Ha, I’m a regulatory economic consultant by trade so coming up with measures is the kinda stuff I have wet dreams about
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Ha, the thing with regulatory is that it’s recession proof. Lately most of my work has been in South Africa and their economy is actually growing right now (world cup and what not)
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
explain to me why that matters...
wasn’t your point that they scored more goals against backups?
the end game is, who scored more. if the Leafs played against all backups this season, and scored 500 goals (never happen) who’s fault would that be?
If we score more, we win. That’s the only stat i give a rip about. see my sig for an explanation…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong. The point is that they FACED more backups, and likely scored more goals as a result of that. If the best defensive team in the league puts their backup in net and allows two goals, what’s to say they wouldn’t have only allowed one if they number one was in net?
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
and who is to say they dont pull a Game 7 luongo and let in 5?
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Guh! I never said that COULDN’T have happened. All I’m saying is if you play the game 1,000,000 times then the starter will have better numbers. ANYTHING is possible in a single game (which is why looking at these numbers tells us very little – did the leafs play well, did the D of their opponents play well, did the ref make a bad call, were there a lot of penatlies – all of these things matter and to run through a calculation that controls all of them us unmanageable.)
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Well, either way it’s going to be a small sample size right? at least for statistical purposes.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Precisely, which is another reason why numbers wont be all that telling. The argument is more one of logic than statistics in my opinion
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Yeah
And logic would dictate that the Leafs would do better against the backups and then they get shutout by Steve Valiquette and put 8 past Lundqvist.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
That statement wasn't
because the stats indicate a very simple level of logic.
Which implies there’s more to it than just the logic you’re using. The numbers don’t support said logic, which means it might not be that logical.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Some Formal Logic then, if you prefer
Def’n: A ‘backup’ goaltender is the 2nd most talented goaltender on a given team.
Assume: The 2nd most talented goaltender on a team will, on average allow more goals than the best goaltender on a given team. (Backup<Starter)
If: Team A plays Team B’s backup goaltender 1,000 times then they will score >1000 goals.
Therefore, over time, Team A will score more goals, on average, the more frequently they play a backup goaltender.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Your definition of backup is flawed. As Steve already mentioned sometimes the backups, as in the case of Mason, have more talent.
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
Def’n: A ‘backup’ goaltender is the 2nd most talented goaltender on a given team.
That looks right. Let’s the titular goalie be pegged as the backup.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
and sometimes the starter isnt an option
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s why I made the def’n what I did. I would say that the leafs played against the 2nd best goalie more times than most teams. (Whether that goalie was called a backup or not doesn’t matter to me)
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
I would also argue that Price is the second best goalie on the Habs
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure. I can’t really get into semantics on who is better on every single team in the league. The argument has to assume agreement on the best goalie on a given team and then it runs itself from there.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
oops I misunderstood what you wrote then. That makes sense.
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
Would’t the definition of a backup be the person who plays the second most games during a given season?
I.e. if Brodeur is injured for the majority of the season, whoever plays the most games (Clemmenson) is the starter, and whoever plays the second most (Weekes?) is the backup?
yeah
the literal def’n would be but as someone pointed out some backups are better than starters occassionally so we had to re-work it.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Then we aren’t defining backup, we’re just subjectively choosing a better goalie. Why don’t we just wait till NHL 10 comes out and use whoever has a lower skill rating?
Yeah it’s subjective. Not arbitrary though. The point isn’t really backup or not backup it’s best goalie or not best goalie
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
So then we should stop trying to define backup and just call it best and 2nd best goalie. What do you do for teams like Anaheim and Chicago?
haha, i know, now im just being a bit of an ass
its what i do
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
You're also
ignoring the fact that some backups are better goalies than the team’s starter, they just haven’t been given the starter’s role due to experience. Columbus last year would be a good example. If Leclaire doesn’t get injured, there’s no way Mason wins the Vezina and we find out he’s so good.
It’s really too much going on to attribute to just the backup vs. starter thing.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
of course there's no way if he didn't start
Mason didn’t even win the Vezina despite starting ; )
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
That should have read
Calder… I need to eat something.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
you’d need to factor in more than that if you want to play semantics.
this is why i hate stat heads. it’s a game of probability and you suck all the heart out of it. the precise reason why i don’t enjoy baseball anymore.
you’d need to factor in injuries. individual player stats against each goalie. does Blake score more goals on Tuesdays than on any other day? If so, we can’t count the Tuesday games because Blake produces at a higher output than normal…
have fun guys. i’ll be the one cheering on GOALS. that’s all that matters to me.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
blake loves tuesdays
he calls them “Spinorama tuesdays”
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
HEY
Stats are great… you just need to put some effort into deciphering what they mean.
They indicate trends. Trends are important. They’re not everything, but they’re still important.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a fine balance. The best thing I’ve heard from Matt Fenwick at the BoA is that stats should largely re-inforce your perceptions from watching the game.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Unless you find a stat that totally flips your perceptions
Then you have to wonder what it means.
Moneyball was all about that idea to some extent… to me at least.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
That’ll happen but for the vast majority of the time the stat that tells you that Vernon Wells sucks in centrefield is just re-inforcing what you see with your eyes every time he doesn’t get to a fly ball.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
plus stats dont tell you things, like how much more awesome grabbo is because he is bat shit insane, or quantify how amazing the vesas mickey mouse shirt video is
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Except he doesn't suck in CF
He sucks at the plate… and his stats reaffirm that for me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
In fact
Vernon Wells has a 1.000 Fielding Percentage, to go along with his 2.25 range factor.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Except that he does
http://mopupduty.com/index.php/vernon-wells-mlbs-worst-fielder/
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Thanks PPP – before today, I’d never heard of UZR. Wells is a depressing case. Injuries, I guess.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Me Neither
It’s just one stat but it’s pretty depressing.
Wells doesn’t drop balls. He just doesn’t get there anymore.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
I miss the old Vernon Wells...
You know, the one that did steroids, hit home runs and could play defense.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
I blame the lack of ’roids
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
Except in some cases in baseball. If you do a proper statistical analysis and see that some players are “getting lucky” for lack of a better term and perfoming better than they should be and are poised to drop off while others are getting “unlucky” and should have better stats. There was a great post recently that talked about iit but I can’t remember where.
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
Over 82 games a starter should outperform a backup right? It’s pretty simple. So if you face backups 30 games a year you’re probably going to score more goals than a team that only faces 5 backups a season…. that’s all I’m saying
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Probably not. A team who faces 30 backups a year likely faces them because they don’t have the same scoring threats as a team that “only faces five”
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
or maybe that team plays a lot of other teams on their back to back nights when the other team is say, the penguins, or their starter is hurt etc etc etc
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the point. The Leafs faced a lot of backups because other teams didn’t see them as a threat. So the question is are they the 10th best offence in the league as the numbers suggest or are we losing something in the circumstance?
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
You could also argue
That the teams thought they were easier to beat because of their atrocious defense… which is what the stats would indicate.
If you’re easier to beat, I don’t have to use my best players – including my top goalie.
I might give up some goals, but I expect to score more than you do… hence why we still win (as indicated by the 9-13 record against backups for the Leafs).
Your goal totals are irrelevant overall in the grand scheme.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. WHY they faced backups is irrelevant. We can assume it is because the other team thought they would score more goals (whether they assumed a score of 10-9 is meaningless) The only point that matters is that it should be easier to score on a backup than a starter.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Yeah but
at the NHL level that difference really is negligible.
It also varies from team to team… so again… too arbitrary to quantify.
The backup on Anaheim is probably a lot better than the backup for Vancouver…
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You're talking a difference between
maybe 1 goal out of every 200 shots. It matters stats wise for the goalies, but does that REALLY increase the Leafs output that drastically?
If they average 28 shots a game roughly, that’s 1008 shots. If they got 1 extra goal for every 200 shots or so (which is still a leap of an assumption) that means they’d score an extra 5 goals.
In the end that’s IRRELEVANT.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Homework
What is the difference in save pct between a teams best and 2nd best goalie on average?
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
You know...
If you were so inclined to use your economist background on the problem you could make it quite the fanpost…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
barf
I’m with Blurr on this – I prefer logic to numbers when it comes to hockey. Over analyzing stats sucks the fun out of it.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
YAY!
score one for the anti-stats geek
gabba gabba we accept you we accept you one of us
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Try not to drool all over the site ;)
I find stats fun. To each their own but stats are a fun way to shut people up.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
so are goals.
10th best in scoring!
wait, that’s a stat.
poop
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
At times...
But not when they get as complicated as this particular endeavour would be
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Stats and logic are not mutually exclusive.
Although the Laffer Curve is an exception.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
go flyers
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course they aren’t. But stats cant create logic – that’s performing the experiment backwards
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Stats are the answer – or if you prefer, the result. You can use them to support your logic but can’t really build logic out of them.
Also, pretty much everyone can understand logic. Regressions and probabilities are a little less accessible in general.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
A friend of mine is an M&A lawyer who swears he’s going to name his yacht the Laffer Curve…
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
I’m going to name mine the Sea Nympho
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
i’m naming mine “I’m On a Boat”
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
sea-ward
[/arrested development]
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
Mine shall be called “Signing Bonus”. Funnier, of course, the smaller the boat is.
Can it before I drive this truculence through your faceulence and put you in an ambulance.
by Brunswick Bruiser on Aug 12, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What is the difference in save pct between a teams best and 2nd best goalie on average?
Gabe Desjardins recently posted a similar comparison between starters and back-ups…lots of interesting goalie data here to digest.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
Also, if you feel that it’s irrelevant then why pay a goalie more than 1 million a year?
What’s five goals over a season? Let’s spend that money on some forwards instead!
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
It isn't 5 goals over a season
It’s 5 goals over 36 games. Over a full season a team gives up between 2200 and 2800 shots (ballpark it at 2500 shall we)…. that’s the difference between giving up 286 goals (Leafs) and giving up ohhh… 233 goals (Pittsburgh). The Penguins gave up 3 more shots during the regular season, but gave up 53 fewer goals. Their save percentage was .906 while the Leafs was .885. If the Leafs can get a save percentage around .900 then they’re doing fine.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
And the MAIN reason
the Leafs SV% was so damn bad was their atrocious backup netminding. I.e. Joseph and Pogge.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
So difference between goalies in the NHL aren’t negligible then…? Isn’t that what you said earlier?
I can’t keep up.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
In the NHL they're negligible
For the Leafs last year they weren’t.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok so occassionally negligible but often drastic. Again, I’m confused.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Occasionally?
and Often?
You’ve got them reversed… which would be the source of both your sarcasm and confusion.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say the NHL
is a more general case than the Leafs for the past 2 years.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Puck Prospectus quote from Gabe's site
“With an unproven goalie, teams can not tolerate a losing streak, so newly-arrived goaltenders have to play well immediately in the NHL. The difference between an NHL All-Star and a fringe goaltender is approximately one goal every other game. It doesn’t matter that it might take 60 or 70 games to tell whether a goaltender has a true talent save percentage of .910 or .900 – if he plays poorly in his first 10 or 20 games, he gets sent down and somebody else gets a chance.”
One goal every other game is the difference between an ALL-STAR and a fringe goalie.
The difference between an average goalie and a fringe goalie would be much smaller.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
so your saying we gave up on pogge too soon?
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok so 41 goals a year.
I’d call that statistically significant.
And not ‘often negligible’.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
You're reading selectively
The posting says an all-star and a fringe goalie.
There are only 6 all-star goalies in the entire NHL. The average starter does not make the all-star game.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
If you compare Martin Brodeur
to a fringe goalie… you’ll notice a huge swing.
If you compare say… Miika Kiprusoff and Martin Gerber – one the winningest goalie in the NHL, another one put on waivers and claimed by the Leafs – you’d see a difference of .903 to .902 in save percentage. I’d call that pretty freaking negligible.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Very well then, presumably you’d also concede that there are enough situations like the Leafs where the backup situation is atrocious?
And if so we can assume that they will be in the 41 goals per year range. Also, granting that the other differences are, let’s say generously, halved, then you’re still looking at 20 goals per season among the remaining ‘average’ goaltenders. I would still say that those numbers are not negligible. Take 20 goals off of the Leafs’ totals from last year and they’re 20th in league scoring.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
20 goals is like 9% of goals scored for most teams in the league
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
The percentage isn't the important part
It’s the comparison to the rest of the league. You’re talking rankings here not absolute totals.
The team that finished 16th in goals against gave up 42 more goals than the team that finished 1st.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
We're also
excluding all the other factors, and the fact is, changing goaltenders didn’t make a huge difference for the Leafs last season.
Gerber replacing Toskala didn’t suddenly make them way more competitive.
I think goaltending on the whole was important, and yes I’m cherry picking the Leafs here because frankly they were atrocious in net.
But as far as the NHL on the whole goes, I don’t think goaltenders are as key as they seem.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
until the playoffs...
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Agreed
In the playoffs one or two plays is a much bigger issue… and it’s harder to question a goalie’s ability to focus when he has proven consistently to be able to stop the puck in key situations… i.e. Patrick Roy, Cam Ward, etc.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, said 41 goals in a year is incorrect
Because no starter in the NHL plays all 82 games, and no fringe goalie plays anything CLOSE to 82 games.
Most top starters play 60 or so games, which means if you played said fringe goalie that would be an added 30 goals.
The fact that the top team in the NHL gave up about 100 fewer goals means that a swing of 30 is not what makes or breaks the difference between the top team, and the bottom. It matters… but it’s not as key as we are led to believe.
End of the day, goalies are generally overpaid.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
of course
for the purposes of averages though that comparison is much easier to make.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Alright
how’s this.
I concede that 41 goals is a big deal to a team trying to make the playoffs like the Leafs.
But the fact is, as the team improves on the whole, their goaltending will look better.
Vesa Toskala is not an atrocious goalie, but he had great numbers in San Jose and crappy numbers in Toronto.
It’s hard to say where the problem with it all lies.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you've lost the source of the argument
I think the Leafs will be better in net this year – both Toskala and their backup.
But the whole point of this is that they should score fewer goals because, I think, that they faced a lot of backups last year and that led to (slightly) inflated totals.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
It’s not just offense that matters – goal differential is the real issue here.
If the Leafs can radically cut down their goals against, they can certainly give up some offense and still put wins on the board.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
so
what we’re saying is, if we score more than we let in, we win?
madness! madness i tell you!!!!
(sorry, don’t hit me…)
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
GOALS!
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
BUT
this isn’t a goal scoring competition, folks…
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
only in november
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
grandpa it hurts my privates
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
what was that from…?
i know we used to use it here a lot in GDTs.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
something about a kid copying his grandfathers goal scoring celebration of riding the stick or something
forget the players involved
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
NNN
and the comments we put in here are pure gold Jerry! like LOL funny
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
man thats good comedy
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The question is
If you only change 4 or 5 players, do you really think the goals against will drop that drastically?
Especially if part of what was lost in the 4 or 5 players was a 64 goals of offense.
Can we maintain the 244 goals for while dropping the goals against from 286 to something closer to 230? That’s a huge drop in one season… 56 goals against?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea if the Leafs can drastically cut their goals against.
I do think that shoring up the D is the key to the season and the Leafs’ PK will determine if this club can compete for the 7 or 8 spot in the east.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
A more reasonable expectation
Would be a drop of about 20 goals against… unfortunately.
That’s more doable. Dropping it by 56 would be insane and if it happens it’s one of the most drastic turnabouts in the modern history of the NHL.
The biggest drop I can find in recent history was when the Stars hired Dave Tippet they went from 213 GA to 169 GA. That’s a drop of 44 goals against in one year.
Before that, when they brought in Ken Hitchocock they went from 280 to 198 in one season. That’s a drop of of 82 goals against…
Of course their backup changed from Allan Bester to Roman Turek and Arturs Irbe… I think that was the main reason.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
All hope lies with the monster
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
ah hockey, a series of broken plays thats why i love thee
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
the backup for my local roller hockey team is better than the Canucks backup…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
My sheet of plastic that has holes in the corners and the five-hole has a higher save percentage than Carey Price in the 2nd half of last year.
Mind you, I’m the one shooting on the plastic so we should probably control for that variable…
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
by Curt S on Aug 12, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This argument would be a whole lot easier if the NHL just made everyteam use sheets of plastic as goalies, and have one with slightly larger holes (which has to play min15 games) labelled “backup”
by Shield on Aug 12, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
BAHAHAH!!
REC’D!!!!!1
That is Hilaaaaaarious!
by Huet'nt Seen Nothin Yet on Aug 12, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
HI!!!!!1
and welcome!
given your penchant for “!!!!1” me thinks you’re a long time lurker first time commenter…
either way, glad you signed up!
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
Also, great name.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
12 losses to back up goalies. 2 in SO, 1 in OT. 23 goals scored by the leafs in these 12 games. 1.9 GPG
70 games against “starters”. 5 in SO, 5 in OT 221 goals scored. 3.1 GPG
does that solve it?
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
wait not 70
36 losses against starters with 221 goals.
so, 6.1 GPG…?
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
crap
i n eed coffee
start over
2.1 GPG against starters
1.9 GPG against back ups.
the difference is negligible.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
In losses
What about in Wins?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless one of my 13 listed
wasn’t a backup …. you’re missing a game.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably
Legace, who was replaced halfway through the year by Mason full time.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
yup
i called him as a starter…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok
13 Wins over backups, here they are:
Valiquette, Derouin-Deslauriers, Clemmensen, Hedberg, Raycroft, Garon, MacDonald (3 times), Elliot (2 times), Ramo, Halak.
So their record against the backups was 13-13… I’m not including shootouts or OT here.
Again, Clemmensen was the starter for a long stretch for NJ, and MacDonald started most of the games for the Isles. If you remove those two from the list, you suddenly get 9 wins over backups, vs 13 losses against backups. I don’t think it was helping them much… and most of those wins were low scoring.
Also if you figure the team won 34 games and only 13 of them came against backups, that means 21 wins came against starters. When you play 26 of 82 games against backups (32%) and yet 38% of your wins come against them, then YES it’s having an impact… but I’m not sure it’s showing up in the goals scored.
I’m also not sure what the effect is on the win totals for other teams. If winning teams go undefeated against backups, the effect may cancel itself out.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh shit
Problem with your math.
You only counted the LOSSES to backups. Not the wins.
I’ve got to go through that list still.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
ya. why did i do that…?
it’s only 9:30 out here. that’s my story and i’m sticking to it.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
PPP now comes up in google news searches
just did a google news search on “leafs” and this blog entry shows up under news articles about Tomas Kaberle. Kewl.
by The Meatriarchy on Aug 12, 2009 8:29 AM EDT reply actions
I was searching for ‘Go Flyers’. Go Flyers.
...rely a bit to heavily on alcohol and irony...
by My Poor Friend Me on Aug 12, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah
We’ve got indexed a couple of months ago. It’s a huge boost.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
No wonder you got that press pass! ; )
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
heh
It was a good trick.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Nicely done
With the Beck references.
The Leafs may not win everygame, but they will beat the shit out of you
Truculence FTW
Is there a link to TSM?
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
Works gettin reeeeeally boring with no Leafs action….I say Burke should put Kabs up on eBay…..
http://sensleafsetc.blogspot.com/
Leafs, Sens, Smooth Music
by Johnny Toronto (in Ottawa) on Aug 12, 2009 9:10 AM EDT reply actions
BUY IT NOW: Phil Kessel and your 2nd round pick
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
:(
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 12, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Does not meet reserve price.
Working on turning St. Louis into Ottawa's #1 Leaf Fans Bar
by Johnny Toronto (in Ottawa) on Aug 12, 2009 9:13 AM EDT reply actions
Detroit Model
I’m loathe to even click on that link because with that guy you know you’re just going to get a wrongheaded argument and a healthy dose of arrogance:
That said, the Maple Leafs will never be the Detroit Red Wings. To follow "the Detroit model" is just a buzz phrase coming from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.
What their model actually was can never be duplicated. It was dedication from ownership, two decades of superb management, and a crafty late round draft record that can be attributed to either luck or foresight on the part of management, finding a market that had talent but was untapped. And that option isn’t open to the Maple Leafs now because the Swedish market is now saturated with pro scouts that represent most NHL teams.
A. Discounting the ‘Detroit Model’ shows that this guy doesn’t know what he is talking about.
B. He confirms it by first listing two things that could conceivably be replicated (dedicated ownership and good management) and then suggesting that Detroit’s success drafting is more due to luck or exploiting untapped markets (Sweden and Russia? Don’t make me laugh) than an excellent player development program.
C. The idea of heading into a market like China is interesting but would probably a lot of money spent for not much return. Not sure why Burke is getting slagged for trying to get as much out of North America as possible since the NCAA, while not an untapped market like Sweden and Russia, still holds some potential gems. Not to mention that Burke did make it to one of those untapped markets to get Jonas Gustavsson and Rickard Wallin. Doesn’t seem like he is only focused on North America.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
yeah the fact that he essentially got young NHL-calibre prospects like Monster, Hanson, Bozak for nothing seems to have gone over his head
by PapaLasagna on Aug 12, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
it was one of the few I could read because AECL doesn’t like blogspot :(
by PapaLasagna on Aug 12, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m lucky my work allows me to go on blogspot. Also, I didn’t click the ical link since I think mac’s are satan’s work.
wow
have you met Winkle?
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
he hates
a lot of things
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
He loves Ravens though!
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
There’s some serious differences in writing styles amongst the guys there. Two I like, the other I can’t stand.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Is it just me...
Or does it not seem questionable that a ‘Detroit Model’ even exists? Their success in the 90s hinged largely on high draft choices such as Yzerman and Federov. I’d hardly say that that constitutes a model…
Secondly, I wonder that the Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg thing may really just be lightning in a bottle rather than some elaborate drafting scheme. While I’m willing to grant that Detroit’s draft record is second to none I would scarcely say that strong drafting in late rounds is a ‘model’ either. Everyone is trying to draft well in late rounds – some teams are just better at it. Are we really willing to grant Detroit the Robert E Lee award of Generalship or can we just say that they have done the basics better than anyone?
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
The whole “Detroit is brilliant at drafting because they found late round gems” is idiotic.
If the Detroit brass really thought guys like Datsyuk, Lidstrom and Zetterberg were going to b e as good as they are, they all would have went with their first picks. Same goes for Federov (a 4th rounder…)
It’s all been about development for them.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t forget Daoust’s brilliant post that proved Detroit isn’t such a draft machine after all…
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 12, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
the late round drafting of Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Franzen comes down to luck and player development. Detroit is wicked good at maximizing the tallent that any given player has
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Was Federov really a 4th round choice? They say the memory is the first thing to go….
Does that mean Primeau was their first round selection that year?
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Mike Sillinger – 11th overall
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
two degrees of mike sillinger? and I’m going to do a poor job of whoring myself out and say I’ve got a post related to that at my website. You may have to look for the ‘sillinger’ tag on the left hand side.
by PapaLasagna on Aug 12, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Fedorov was 4th round
Yes. Lidstrom was 3rd round that same year. Sillinger was the first rounder.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
not the same team
but Bure was a 6th rounder.
you young whippersnappers forget that at the time we were still dealing with the big bad USSR. Drafting a russian kid was a complete gamble. not just on their skill level, but them defecting to come over in the first place.
Was it Mogilny who had to deal with threats to his family after defecting?
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
yup
Mogilny had the hardest time pretty much. Which is why I was so sad to see his NHL career end the way it did.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh I remember it
And Fedorov, Mogilny, and Bure would have gone 1-2-3 that year if they weren’t playing for the Red Army.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I remember it; or I would, if I could only find my medication. Is it time for shuffleboard yet?
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 12, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
easily
and, i found the Mogilny defection story here.
I forgot he was drafted a year earlier. the first…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The work the Wings went to in order to get Federov out of Russia reads like a spy novel (sending over a detroit news reporter who was fluent in russia to act as a messenger).
Amazing that Bure went in the 6th round 113th overall and Mogilny in the 5th round, 89th overall.
The Leafs did similar work smuggling out Peter Ihnicak in the early 80s
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
Primeau was 1 year later
1990, 3rd overall.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
You have to include
Franzen and Holmstrom if you’re mentioning the others. and Kronwall is pretty damn good too.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I took em to task
in his comments section on the whole thing.
11 of 47 Swedish Draft picks make NHL for Red Wings.
10 of 13 Swedish Draft picks make NHL for Leafs (including Stålberg and Gunnarsson, neither of whom have made it yet).
I’d say our success rate is better than theirs considering how many guys they’ve selected.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Other interesting thing to note
Since 2003, only two players drafted by the Red Wings has played over 50 games – Johan Franzen and Kyle Quincey.
So much for that stellar drafting record.
Leafs since 2003 to play over 50 games? Mitchell, Stralman, Tlusty, Kulemin, Schenn
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
but
they also take longer to develop their players – take a look at that stat in a couple years, they still may not have as many players on the list, but they likely are impact players.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
They take longer to develop players?
Franzen has already played 292 games. How long does this “development” take?
Darren Helm and Justin Abeldaker will get there eventually, but by the time they do, those Leaf picks will have a lot more games under their belts. Same goes for Shawn Matthias and Cory Emmerton… etc.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
He'll be a 2nd line centre for the Griffons soon enough
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe develop is the wrong word… but it sure seems to take a lot for one of their players to make the jump. How many AHL games did, say, Kronwall play?
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Only 101
and 76 of those came in the lockout season.
He’s a bad example.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
sorry
102. He played 1 game in 2005-06.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
What he did play
was a lot of games for Djugardens in the SEL. 4 full seasons.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
strange, I thought hw was buried for longer. Thing I have trouble with is whether our kids would be getting this playing time if we weren’t rebuilding. And Tlusty’s number of games should be reduced because Maurice almost ruined him his first year.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Even Stajan, and White
played 81 and 145 games in the AHL respectively.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Hudler is a better example
185 AHL games.
Filppula only played 77 AHL games.
Tomas Kopecky played 4 full seasons in the AHL though.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
If we're comparing to Leaf prospects
Tlusty has played 86 AHL games. John Mitchell played 205. Stralman played 57 after 3 years as a pro in Sweden. I don’t think the Leafs are taking a lot “less” time to make the NHL.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
But
is that because they have an easier lineup to crack or is it a development issue?
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
I don't think the Leafs lineup
is easier for prospects to crack. Look at last year’s lineup. Aside from Schenn, who found it easy as a rookie?
This was a team that was at times horrible.
The Leafs have often filled in gaps with veterans rather than promote from within. It’s a bit strange frankly.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Kulemin
was the only other player to get significant ice time as a rookie, and he had led the RSL in goal scoring 2 years previous as the MVP on the championship Magnitogorsk side. I don’t think he should have had to play a season in the AHL frankly.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Since 2003
The only Leafs to directly jump into the line up after drafting were Kulemin, Tlusty, and Schenn.
For Detroit they’ve had Franzen. I think that has more to do with the drafting than anything though. Franzen was a 3rd rounder. None of Detroit’s 1st round picks have made the leap. Jakub Kindl? Brendan Smith? Thomas McCollum?
Whose fault is that?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, it’s no wonder they have no problem trading away first round picks, they never make it. Who was the last first rounder of theirs to make it?
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Kronwall
we’ve come full circle now.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I could have sworn he was a second rounder.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 12:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Nope
1st round 29th overall.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Before that it was this list of who's who!
Fischer, Wallin, Kuznetsov, Golubovsky, Eriksson, Bowen, Lapointe!
Of those, only Fischer, Eriksson, and Lapointe have played a full season. All 3 are out of the NHL methinks.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Detroit's draft record apparently
Kinda sucks.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I concur, they sre responsible for Anders Eriksson… shame.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 12:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you’re cory cross????
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 12:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
damn
I wish too…
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
double damn
every time a girl is interested in me, it goes south when they find out i’m not cory cross.
Cory Cross has the same problem when women find out that he is, in fact, Cory Cross.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
he pretents that he is cory feildmen
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Daoust agrees with this. See his excellent post on the topic…
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 12, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
For Comparison
consider the LA Kings.
Over that same stretch – they’ve added Dustin Brown, Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Quick, Jonathan Bernier, Oscar Moller, Wayne Simmonds, and Drew Doughty. That’s 7 players – 5 skaters and 2 goalies.
THAT is an easier lineup to crack.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
So you think it’s as easy to crack the Leafs’ lineup as the Red Wings’ lineup? Interesting Theory.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
I wouldn't say
They are equivalent. I just don’t think the assumption that the Leafs lineup is way easier to crack is a valid one.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference is
the Leafs are constantly bringing in Free Agents or making trades to take up roster spots. I.e. Blake, Hagman, Toskala, Mayers, Grabovski, Primeau, Wallin, Komisarek, Frogren, Beauchemin, Exelby, etc.
We don’t let our guys MAKE the NHL all that often. When we do they turn out to be ok usually – Steen, Colaiacovo, Stajan, White, Wellwood, Kulemin, Tlusty… I sometimes wonder if the developmental systems rankings that are out there are more a function of who is ALLOWED in the NHL, and not so much ability to make it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention
Kaberle, Markov, Modin, Jonsson, Berezin, Potvin, Clark, Damphousse – etc. this could continue.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Detroit gets the press
due to their relatively close proximity to Toronto and their success.
that’s it.
Every NHL team has players they’ve developed into good NHLers. This is really a case of buying what the MSM is selling.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It's funny...
Because the team that’s actually really effing good at drafting is Buffalo, but they don’t get mentioned in the same breath as Detroit.
They’re closer to Toronto too.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Buffalo just cut their scout team nearly in half this year so I doubt that continues.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
They went to Video Scouting
like 2 years ago.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Buffalo: THIS IS TRUE. I took a look at Darcy Regier’s success with the draft earlier this year and was absolutely floored by it…
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 12, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
if Buffalo didn’t have ownership/bankruptcy issues and managed to hang on to Hasek, and add and keep Drury and Briere, we’d all be singing a different tune.
Mike Illitch’s deep pockets get forgotten in the Detroit argument.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, yes.
Also, by “earlier this year”, I apparently mean “last November”. Where does the time go? How can it be moving this fast and there’s STILL NO HOCKEY TO WATCH???!!!?1
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 12, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
at least you did it when it mattered
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 12:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Awesome! I’m proud of me!
…and rec’d because I NEVER get tired of that joke.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 12, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
true, but it’s all about the on ice success, and that’s something Buffalo has not been able to sustain.
When they were good with Hasek, the Leafs weren’t all that bad themselves…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Aug 12, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
their skaters have had a lot of on ice success… they just can’t afford to keep them.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
For different reasons. The Wings because they are good and the Leafs because they filled gaps with vets.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Well
Even the wings fill gaps with free agents.
Look how long Jimmy Howard has been stuck in Grand Rapids… He’s been waiting forever thanks to Joseph and Hasek.
Then there’s Hossa, Rafalski, Samuelsson, Cleary, Maltby, Draper, Chelios (retire already).
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I think next year Detroit will have a lot of players “make the jump” and I think they’ll be worse because of it.
Darren Helm, Shawn Matthias, Justin Abeldaker… they’ll still be good… but not AS good.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah...
Who the hell am I thinking of? hold on… checking my “sheets”.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Emmerton
Sorry… mixed him up with Matthias talking about both of them earlier
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I forgot about the Bert
trade… talk about a bad trade for Detroit.
So yeah Ken Holland sure is a whiz!
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
his trading track record is sketchy, but his ability to fill holes and retain talent is redonkulous.
I'm going to keep thinking
That they drop off huge when Lidstrom retires.
Normalcy will return, and the era will end.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I hopeso. I like the Wings, but man their fans sure are arrogant…
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 12:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I asked the resident Wings fan at work, what happens when Lidstrom retires.
Word for word:
“Jonathan Ericsson will be the next Nick Lidstrom”
shoulda told him “too bad, the Leafs already traded the next lindstrom to Calgary”
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
See
This is why the Red Wings are an evil empire. Not because of their players (generally clean, skilled and not easy to hate on), or their organization (top-notch).
No, their fans are the most arrogant SOBs around.
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!
well, I may forget about 1967 -whenever, so maybe I’ll go easy on them.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 12:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I went after him in his “Definition of Re-Tool” article. He’s the defintion of a tool. I wouldn’t even bother arguing with him.
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
Kovalchuk
rumours are that if he makes it to free agency the KHL will make him insanely rich… so I’m not holding my breath there.
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions
I think the KHL would make me rich if they heard the NHL was interested, and I’m a brown kid from the GTA who can barely skate.
by ohshrit on Aug 12, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m thinking about playing for LSE’s hockey team. I would go from being a very good soccer player and an ok hockey player in Canada to a very good hockey player and ok soccer player in England.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
It would be a major coup for them so I can imagine they’ll go nuts after him.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
every kind of quote I’ve heard from Kovy sounds like he wants to go somewhere where the building is sold out everynight… it’s not hard to do with the 6,000-seat stadiums in the KHL!
by PapaLasagna on Aug 12, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean I know we bitch about Russian players going home to the KHL, but hot damn I loved it when Gary and Joey signed in T.O.
Random Question
Which piece of poop will make more money?
a) G.I. Joe
b) Dany Heatley
c) Whatever hole Lonny Bohonos decides to have dinner at
Lonny Bohonos
Nyam Nyam Nyam
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
man, I had such love for Bohonos after that playoff series…
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 11:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
An eating joke not aimed at Wellwood? What’s this world coming to?
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
agreed. my brain hurts now. and not the same way it hurt before.
by PapaLasagna on Aug 12, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
teenage sports fans
I think I’m most grateful to this site for putting the final nail in the BOO’s coffin…
“HAHA! Our team is better because our lame city offers nothing else for kids to do!”
Oh, podunks.
Oh man I totally forgot about “Grandpa it hurts my privates”
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
reply fail!
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I hate it when replies stop nesting.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
nesting, its like spooning for comments!
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I never forget a good meme
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Noooo
Spezza invited to Olympic Camp.
What the heck did Mark Savard do to make Hockey Canada hate him so much???
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 2:55 PM EDT reply actions
I know eh….fuck spezza…
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 12, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
rediculous
I’d take Savard over Spezza any day of the week…
"Life is just a place where we spend time between games. Hockey is where we live, where we can best meet and overcome pain and wrong and death." - Fred Shero
by Karina on Aug 12, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
How much better is Toskala going to be...
With Allaire as goaltending coach.
A coach who is considered the best there is when it comes to positional play for goaltenders.
An athletic goalie whose largest flaw is his propensity for being overly aggressive with his angles.
This could be epic.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
this also bodes well for the monster
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
NEW POSTING
wtf?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
It’ll go in tomorrow’s FTB so it’ll get more eyeballs on it.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
appreciated
that being said, feel free to read it now.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 12, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah
Read it already :)
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
It’s an interesting start but I feel like a lot is left unsaid. As I mentioned earlier, I would be curious to see a control put in for the calibre of defense a team plays. For example, if on average the Leafs’ opposing team allowed 2.20 goals against per game and they put in their backup then this should not have the same impact as a team that has a 2.90 goals against per game and plays their starter – but you’re valuing the two at exactly the same rate.
I think the most interesting measure here would be one that creates a multiplier for calibre of defense which is then applied to the backup or starter in question. Then we could see, in a more meaningful way, the impact of starters vs backups holding the calibre of opposition roughly constant.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
The reason I say this is...
I suspect that the Leafs primarily played the backups of playoff teams as they would be more apt to “assume” a win. Conversely, I imagine unspectacular teams would have likely played their starters in the belief that the Leafs were a team they could beat. I may be wrong on this but I think the sentiment makes sense.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
Allaire has already coached
The Monster … at his goalie camps… so I’m not sure how much extra he’ll add.
That being said, he’s done well with Roy, Aebischer, Giguere, Bryzgalov, and Hiller… it’ll be interesting to see what happens next with him and the Leafs goalies.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
hmmm, this i did not know
Oh well, cant hurt
Relying on Nonsense and Cheap Gimmicks Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 12, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the one-on-one, or one-on-two (Tlusty scale), attention can’t hurt. I don’t know how much of that he would have received at the camps.
The Future Mr. Curl
Made up of equal parts pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. Ok, maybe a little heavier on the truculence...
That’s what I am thinking too. He’ll be working with him for 8 months at least.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Grandpa
Maybe I haven’t quite figgered out this BillBergosphere blogging meme-ing thingie, but shouldn’t it really go like this “Grandpa it hurts my privates. GO FLYERS !!!” ? Or am I just confused?
Flatulence !! The silent stinky truculence.
by Mike Pelyk's Hairdo on Aug 12, 2009 7:13 PM EDT reply actions
That depends on translation, Mike. In eastern ontario, we have a phrase to describe certain, shall we say,
“close” familiies- “Get off me, Dad, you’re crushing my smokes.” In this one, it’s about riding a rigid piece of wood………….Nevermind.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
Flatulence !! The silent stinky truculence.
I am seven. This makes me laugh.
Welcome, and nice handle!
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Check the PPP Dictionary for answers to these and many other questions.
Maybe there should be a “Grandpa it hurts my privates entry” but somebody else (cough..cough Chemmy..cough cough) needs to write it..
A Nation of Masochists The waiting is the hardest part but the truculence helps.
The way you wrote “Grandpa it hurts my privates entry” you left the quote close after ‘entry’ and not ‘privates’…
Although it probably works either way, in this case.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 12, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
"Grandpa it hurts my privates. GO FLYERS !!!"
Good work. You’ve united two memes perfectly.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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