Ok, just hear me out for a second...
I'll paraphrase this by assuring you all that I have not been taking any "goof balls" or similar medications.
On today's Leafs Lunch there was significant discussion as to the Leafs keeping Kadri this season. MLHS discusses it here. And you can listen to the Leafs Lunch here.
After hearing both sides of the story (Brady's and Kat's) I have to say that while I respect Kat's knowledge, I'm not really sold on Kat's reasoning, specifically this part:
I told a friend this opinion after listening to Leafs Lunch, and he smacked me with something I had told him back in the day regarding his boy, Jason Spezza. He’s an Ottawa fan, and his response was this:
To play devil’s advocate….
You’ve argued in the past that the best place for Spezza was developing at the NHL level rather than the AHL level. My evaluation tells me that Kadri is essentially right where Spezza was after his first training camp. At the time, I thought Spezza should go to the A.
How is this any different? Wouldn’t Kadri benefit from NHL practice and coaching?
My response was:
Ah, touche … very interesting … my only counter I think could be the difference in size, Kadri has to bulk up. Another thing is that Spezza was a necessity on an offensively fragile team at the height of the trap. His offensive talents were needed in Ottawa more than Kadri’s are needed at this present moment in Toronto; Kadri would be a nice to have, but not a necessity. The game is different now, more opened up, with a focus on speed and skill, but when Spezza broke into the NHL, he was playing on a defensive club, with some talent around him, playing for Jacques Martin, a defensive-minded coach. It would have been easier for Spezza to step in and contribute than Kadri would at this point in time.
After reading that line of reasoning something didn't sit right. I realized it was a contradiction of sorts.
Kat says
"Kadri has to bulk up"
but then proceeds to say:
"The game is different now, more opened up, with a focus on speed and skill".
So doesn't this mean that Kadri's type of game (speed and skill) doesn't necessarily require him to "bulk up"? Spezza was bigger than Kadri is now, but as Kat says:
when Spezza broke into the NHL, he was playing on a defensive club, with some talent around him, playing for Jacques Martin, a defensive-minded coach.
So Spezza's size was needed for his role. I don't think anyone would compare Ron Wilson's style of hockey to Jacques Martin. And Ron Wilson has put a young player in the NHL before. He had a 19 year old Jan Bulis in Washington, he gave a young Milan Michalek a chance at 18 in San Jose and an 18 year old Oleg Tverdovsky in Anaheim.
And then there's Brian Burke. People talk about how he didn't rush Bobby Ryan or Corey Perry or Ryan Getzlaf. But as Brady pointed out, there was a huge amount of skill in Anaheim and therefore no need to bring them up. And even with the skill available, Perry and Getzlaf both played major roles at the age of 20. And if you go back to his Vancouver days, the Sedins were both 20 when they debuted and that was behind an effective offense of Markus Naslund, Brendan Morrison and Todd Bertuzzi.
Sending Kadri back to London makes sense if he's able to learn something further there. This was the line with Schenn before the decision was made to keep him. Schenn was capable of sticking as an NHL defense man at the age of 18, a position that usually takes longer to develop than forwards.
The Leafs Lunch crew brought up some good reminders of great teams that pushed a young star into the limelight:
The 83-84 Red Wings with 19 year old Steve Yzerman:
The Red Wings prior to Yzerman's arrival were absolutely abysmal. An assortment of above average talent but no real star (Ogrodnick aside!). They had missed the playoffs the previous 5 seasons in a row and just finished dead last in their division. Yzerman's arrival, coupled with a full season from Ivan Boldirev who had been acquired via trade midway through 82-83 and the acquisition of Ron Duguay, brought them immediately back into the playoffs in 83-84.
Yzerman was 5'11'' and 160lbs.
More recently we've seen some success with young stars:
Another London Knight, Sam Gagner. Sure, Gagner did have a bit more size during his rookie season than Kadri, but I think it would be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes given the Leafs substantial bulk in all other positions.
Of course an 18 year old Patrick Kane managed 21g 51a, 72pts and playing all 82 games while standing all of 5'9" and 160lbs in 2007-08. And he was playing alongside a bigger 19 year old, Jonathan Toews, who managed 24g 30a 54pts that same year.
A 19 year old David Perron did alright while being under 6' and barely 180lbs.
Heck, even an 18 yr old Phil Kessel survived to play 70 games.
All of this might not mean enough to you, so let's talk about another potential benefit of keeping Kadri that was put on display in one recent game. Shootouts. One of the main reasons that was quoted for the Leafs bringing in Kessel, was his shootout success.
"It'll be a while before our fans see him, but he'll bring tremendous foot speed. He should improve our power play and he's a good shootout player and in our game, that's an important asset," said Burke. "He's a dynamic player." - Brian Burke on Phil Kessel.
If they truly value shootout success as an important asset, it would be hard to ignore Kadri's apparent talent in this area when determining what to do with him. Does this alone earn him a spot on the roster, not in my eyes, but when you combine it with the other factors listed above and Wilson's apparent constant in-joke with the media and fans it seems like it is a possibility at the least.
Wilson's said Kadri would have to take a spot from the Top 6, quite possibly beat Matt Stajan or Mikhail Grabovski out of a center job. The Leafs are not the Red Wings or Penguins. Stajan and Grabs combined for 35 goals last year. Grabs had a total of 48 pts and a -8 in 78 games. Grabs faceoff was %44.5. If you don't want to replace the centers, then let's look at the wingers for the top two lines:
Ponikarovsky, Blake, Hagman and who? Kulemin? maybe.. Stempniak? possibly...Both of them were given the opportunity last year and 31pts and 26 goals combined is below average from 2nd line wingers. Sure Kessel will slot in there in November, so why not try Kadri until then at least? There are no guarantees Blake will perform as well as last year and if he falters you can slot Kadri in and move Blake to the third line.
A lot of people keep saying that we can replace the numbers we lost with Antropov, Moore at forward. Wouldn't Kadri be a possible source of some of this lost offense, at the very least until Kessel debuts?
Has Wilson been pulling the wool over our eyes, playing a mind game as Bill Watters would have you believe? Will it be the big reveal this year as Schenn was last year? I really don't know anymore, but I'm very interested to find out.
With each day Kadri seems to be learning more at a rapid pace and is starting to make a believer out of this Leafs fan who was certain he'd be in London to start this year.
To whit:
"If he's ready, he's ready," Wilson said. "When I watch him, I'm looking at how he moves on pucks, how he defends the forecheck and does he get the puck out cleanly.
"If he played in junior he might not get better. He might be beyond junior. You send some kids back and could find out later that he picked up bad habits or didn't try hard.
"But don't read into this that he's on the team. We just have to look at things like that. You have to look at the depth on our team, too. (The injuries) could delay some decisions. I'm playing some guys more than I like, but that's not always a bad thing." - Ron Wilson on Luke Schenn (Oct 1st 2008)
"I know what he's feeling right now," said Schenn. "Obviously there's a lot of eyes on him.
"He looks good and it looks like nothing is getting to him. If you show you're ready to play at this level, you're big enough and strong enough to make the jump, they'll make room for you no matter what your age is."
"My mindset is to make this hockey club," said Kadri. "It's what I want more than anything. I've been dreaming about this since I was a little kid."
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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Per Ron Wilson
the guy who makes the roster decisions:
“I didn’t think it was one of Nazem’s better games, to be honest,” coach Wilson said. "But it only takes special players like him one moment to change the outcome. He got a loose puck and buried it. If he goes back to junior, I’d be shocked if he didn’t get 100 points.
So, while not taking anything away from his abilities, he’s definitely saying there’s more to staing in the NHL than scoring pretty goals.
“He and (Tyler) Bozak can eventually be magical players for us. But I only have spots for 23 players. Have they stolen anyone’s job? Not in my estimation. Last year would have been a different story.
This is something Wilson has said about a lot of guys on the team. Some were thrown into the bigs out of necessity, not necessarily because they earned it, or were even good enough. The team just wasn’t that deep last year.
However, it also allowed guys like Grabovski and Stajan to grow and become better players. Players who, at this point in their careers, deserve the top 6 ice time and have proven they can produce at this level. I’m not saying Kadri can’t. however…
“Some guys will have to bide their time in the minors.”
This last quote certainly doesn’t seem to be too strong a recommendation for Kadri to stay up. The point for me is not really whether or not he can do it. What do I know about being a pro athelete, I’m sitting in my mom’s basement eating cheese doodles (don’t laugh, you all are to!) It’s how much stronger the coach and GM have been on the fact that Kadri just won’t be making the cut. They’ve left minuscule amounts of room to change their mind, but they’ve yet to say that they have at all.
Lastly, if Kadri is anything like Spezza, then shoot me now…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:42 AM EDT reply actions
I’d tend to agree with you for the most part, but Wilson and Fletcher were saying the same thing about Schenn early in training camp last year. It really wasn’t until the last couple of preseason games that it looked like he would stay for the 9 games at least (partially due to injury) and there was still plenty of doubt the Leafs would keep him pass the 9 games.
We all know how OLAS continued to prove himself and basically forced them to keep him.
I don’t think it’s that far-fetched that Kadri could do something similar given the opportunity. And it doesn’t necessarily have to come at the expense of Stajan and Grabovski…
P.S. The part about Spezza was meant to illustrate that he doesn’t have to be like Spezza at all.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
The only comparison b/t Spezza and Kadri is that they will be the most complete forwards on their respective teams when we look back.
/laughs until his ribs start to hurt
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
Oh, and despite my not agreeing with you in this case, Tom, it’s an excellent argument and made me think a lot. Rec’d.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
Well, in regards to Luke Schenn, you can argue that Schenn isn’t fully developed as of yet because he was playing all year in the NHL. In the NHL, Schenn mainly played on the PK as an addendum to his regular ice time. His offensive game is largely still coming around. He’s still not quite comfortable making offensive plays with the puck and has a shot that isn’t used very often right now. In juniors, you bet Schenn would have been playing prime minutes on the power play and allowed to show off his offensive talents. Schenn was so focused on playing defense and staying up in the top 4, his other talents have been neglected for the most part. Schenn only stayed because the Leafs depth was so iffy and unknown.
Kadri has still much to learn about the game in terms of playing all the important situations. He still hasn’t played a full season in juniors yet, nor has he been on a team where he was seen as the go-to-guy. When Kadri struggles, do the Leafs have the luxury to keep plugging him in the top lines? He won’t do much good in the lower lines playing 7-10 minutes, and scratching him to the press box seems counterproductive as well. Whenever I see Kadri knocked off the puck in the corners or lose balance and hit the boards dangerously in preseason, nothing tells me that someone like Timonen or Chara will go easy on him and Kadri will walk away fine when he could have used that time to bulk up or at the very least, learn to absorb those hits in an environment more conducive to learning. I doubt Ron Wilson and the coaching staff will have the same patience seeing Kadri hesitate the next time he’s in the corners because he’s not used to the rigors of the regular season.
I just don’t see the rush in having Kadri stay on the Leafs for this upcoming season. That certainly doesn’t mean I’m not excited about Nazem Kadri. Maybe I’m in the danger of overrating him, but I think he will be a tremendous player with skills and vision that cannot be easily taught. But there’s also a financial concern in keeping Kadri down in juniors as well. If the Leafs can keep Kadri an extra year under their control and the Leafs brass only see minimal benefit keeping him in the NHL, I think they choose that route. The salary cap is such an ongoing concern now, especially since it doesn’t look like the cap will increase in the near future, all teams have to add in the financial element into their negotiations. Pittsburgh, Washington, and Chicago are just a few prominent teams that have to find creative solutions to re-sign all their RFAs. If they could have avoided paying big-time money to their young stars by not burning a year off their entry-level contracts, they would have done exactly that practice.
Does Nazem Kadri have the same pedigree as the Crosbys, Ovechkins, Toews, and even the Luke Schenns of the hockey world? After all, Schenn already had three full seasons in Junior hockey as the top defenceman in Kelowna and a number of World Junior Championship games as the top defensive defenceman for Team Canada under his belt. Schenn was already considered NHL-ready in terms of his defensive ability by many NHL draft scouts. Kadri was drafted somewhat as an unknown despite his offensive skills. There was very little talk about him being NHL ready when he was drafted. Do perspectives change? Of course, as Kadri has impressed many eyes with his performance both in the rookie tournament and main camp. But making the NHL isn’t about holding your own. In order to stick with the NHL and prove that Kadri has nothing to learn with the London Knights, he has to excel and game in, game out show he’s one of the top performers on the ice. It’s about consistency, as much as it is about scoring a few goals.
Not all minutes are considered equal. In the OHL, Kadri will have the opportunity to play in every situation he can handle, including the power play, penalty kill, protecting the lead, being down by a goal, etc. If Kadri is assured of those same minutes in the NHL, then Kadri stays with the Leafs. If that can’t be guaranteed, I don’t think it’s in the Leafs best interest to burn a year off his entry-level contract only to see Kadri play either sheltered minutes or sit on the bench because his skills outside the offensive game needs work.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
by bkblades on Sep 24, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
All good points, many of which were made against keeping Luke Schenn last year.
Just as Schenn was more of a defensive defenseman, that hasn’t fully developed his offensive skills yet, Kadri is more of an offensive forward that hasn’t fully developed his two way game yet.
I believe that if Kadri stays, he will be part of the top two lines, thus giving him the necessary situational experience to continue developing.
I came across a couple scouting reports that state he “may” be able to step into the NHL right away.
The main point that gets me thinking is that almost all of the arguments made today about Kadri were the same arguments against Schenn. We’re talking about a #5 pick and a #7 pick here. I just don’t see it as any harder for Kadri to crack the lineup than it was for Schenn last year, which to me, makes it at least possible.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
You aren’t making a substantive counter-argument to the fact that Kadri will get pounded on a pretty regular basis playing in the NHL while simultaneously playing a game that makes it very difficult to advance conditioning due to it’s fast, intense nature.
Looking back on Schenn’s first year, he was and is now, very, very strong. He’s not going to get much bigger or stronger. Kadri, however, is a completely different story. I’m convinced his development will be much better off with a finishing year in the OHL and all the pluses, including any international play, that that entails. It’s not that he’s frail OR weak, but physically he isn’t ready for an 82 game NHL sched. What if we make the playoffs and he ends up playing into late April or even early May? He’ll have only a few months to get ready for his sophomore year, and I think it might crush him. We have time on our side, and having as many of our present top prospects come to the big club around the same time and in top condition will be huge.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
I’d say Patrick Kane faced the same issues and provided a pretty substantive counter-argument. Granted it’s preseason, but Kadri has not looked out of place at all in any of the games so far, including playing against big men in Philly (Pronger, Cobourn, etc). As was stated on Leafs Lunch, can you name 6 Leaf forwards who have played better than Kadri at all this preseason? I can’t. If it’s a spot he has to steal, I’d say he may have earned a spot in the top 6.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The thing is, you’re talking about the offensive side of the game. Wilson has been on record multiple times stating that the things being missed by Kadri are what, coupled with his need to add some bulk, keeps him out of the line up this year.
I’ve not seen a whole lot of defensive acumen from the guy yet. He’s not been the first guy hustling back to cover his man on the back check. he’s still making low percentage passing plays in the offensive zone, and he continues to try to do a lot of things himself rather than utilizing his teammates. It’s just that, again, as Wilson has said, he’s a special player and all he needs is that one little moment to make you forget the 10 or so other little moments he missed something.
Also, in regards to the bulking up issue and the Schenn comparisons. Luke never had a size or strength issue, for him, Wilson’s only concern was whether or not he was at a point in his development where another year in junior was going to hamper him, or if he’d get more out of staying with the big club.
For Kadri, on top of the missed defensive assignments and poor offensive zone choices, he needs more upper body strength. That does not mean, go to junior and get fat and be slow. It means, stronger. He can still bulk up and be his quick and shifty self, playing the game the way he’s always done. But even faster…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
this
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions
the thing about Kadri going down the OHL is that it is pretty much risk free (freaky injuries aside). The only thing it could do is make him a better and more complete hockey player while boosting his confidence and allowing him more time to physically mature before the bigs.
While he very well might succeed at an NHL level, he could also regress because he is a boy among men, getting battered and thrown around every game and not putting up the points he thinks he should be. Even worse he could get Brendan Sutter’d because he isnt used to the speed of the game and some experienced pro catches him unawares.
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 8:31 AM EDT reply actions
As someone that advocated for Luke Schenn staying up you make a great argument for doing the same with Nazem Kadri.
bkblades makes most of the counterarguments but I think the one that will decide things is that Wilson is on record as saying that he won’t keep players projected for the top six unless they are playing on the first two lines and one of the keys to success in the NHL is to have players outperforming their contracts.
What gives the Leafs a better chance of success in 4 seasons? Kadri on an entry-level deal or Kadri on his first-post-entry level deal? Keep in mind that a lot of the financial flexibility that the Penguins had last year was because Malkin was still on his first SPC.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
by PPP on Sep 24, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Definitely a rec though.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Yzerman was 5’11’’ and 160lbs.
And the average hockey player wasn’t 6’ 200lbs back then…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Maybe not, but he was playing in the Norris Division of the 80’s. Considered by many as the toughest division of the decade.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure
But now he’s giving away 30 lbs to the avg player compared to back then when he would have been giving away 5.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
But he’s also playing behind a much bigger team than Yzerman did. Both Wilson and Burke have stated that the “skill” players should have more room as a result of the added size both on defense and grinders as well as a legit heavyweight in Orr..
Doesn’t it fit that a skill player such as Kadri would be included in that assessment?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
the size of his defensive line didnt help him when he got tossed into the boards like a plastic bag in the wind a few games ago
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh and look at that, he didn’t crumble to pieces, amazing! He still goes into the boards, he has no fear and obviously if he’s getting tossed around “like a plastic bag” his body seems to be able to handle it right?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
So he learns to use his skill to avoid that type of treatment, see Kane, Patrick.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
for every pat kane, there are 12 tim stapletons
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
82 games is vastly different from four.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Yes and regular season is very different from preseason, but Schenn earned a job with how many preseason games again?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
he earned an audition on a team with far less NHL ready depth
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Schenn and Kadri are apples and oranges.
Stick with your Patrick Kane argument, the comparables are more favorable I’d think.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Also
Kane was picked 1st overall, little more of a bias there
Resident Cook and IT Superman
Truculence FTW
yes, in that situation he was fine. Its nice to know he isnt made of glass, but who is to say next time he doesnt land on his wrist or his head? its just a glarin example of how he needs to get stronger and smarter to play in the NHL
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
And playing another season in the OHL will make him smarter against NHL defensemen?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
it will give him more time to develope his hockey sense, his maturity and his patience, so yes, he will be better equipped to deal with grown men
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
your RIGHT!
who cares about him getting knocked off the puck, and the 3 on 2 chances that will create for the opposition. right?
I mean, it’s all about goal scoring, and Kadri’s goals have been pretty. who cares what happens the other 9 minutes a night of ice time he’ll get playing on the third line…
we get it dude, you’re Kadri’s superfan.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I never said he’d be on the third line. Again, I don’t see 6 Leaf forwards who have performed better than him this camp.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
defensively, Stajan and Grabovski have been better. We’re talking, assignments, back checking, positioning.
They’ve been heads above the other guys.
From a STRICTLY offense perspective, Kadri has scored some nice goals. He’s also coughed up the puck trying to deke through the zone all on his own, or by trying to make a low percentage play.
Take away his goals, and tell me what he’s done that’s so amazing besides survive being knocked off the puck.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s a +2 player in 5 preseason games, better than Grabs,. not bad for a defensive liability.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s a shame that we don’t have Behind The Net stats to see if Kadri’s been facing tougher competition.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
was just gonna ask that…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
6 forwards? I dont need to. Kadri is a center.
So Stajan and Grabovski. The top 2 centers. Considering Burke already said that those two were top 6 players…
Resident Cook and IT Superman
Truculence FTW
And Burke never changes his mind about anything right? As I said, Kadri does not have to play center on the top 6.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
No, he changes his mind but it’s not up to Burke. He’s said that his coach picks the team so you have to look at what Wilson has said and it seems like he’s leaning towards sending him to London.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
"Some guys will have to bide their time in the minors."
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
And there’s no part of you that thinks that Wilson is doing this to see how Kadri reacts? Wilson said the same things about Schenn last preseason and Schenn responded.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s all I’m saying! Could be!
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
no
Wilson said that they would gauge Luke’s development and see if he would be better served staying with the Leafs, or if another year in junior was in his best interest.
on Kadri he’s said he’s too small, he hasn’t been that great away from the puck, and he needs to displace other guys to make the team, and he’s yet to do that, all per Wilson.
Different scenarios. Beyond their age, they have nothing in common.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Other than these points:
- Schenn scored a nice shootout goal in the preseason. So did Kadri.
- Kadri has played 3 less games in the OHL than Schenn did before making the team.
- Schenn needed to break into the top 4 defensemen, Kadri needs to break into the top 6 forwards.
Wilson on Schenn:
“He’s one of our players. I don’t look at their age or their contract. That doesn’t concern me,” Wilson said. “You don’t put people on your team because you’re worried about 5 or 6 years from now. That’s backward thinking. I said if he were a Top-4 defenseman on our team than he would play. He’s definitely in our top 4.”
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem is being that we are interpreting Kadri differently. Most people on here do not believe he has been one of our top 2 overall Centers. You do. Which is fine, it is up to interpretation.
However in my personal opinion while Kadri became sort of the hero against the Pens, the rest of his game was not good, I saw him float around for a bit and knocked off the puck in the corner. Just because he was on the open wing as the extra man on the ice in the last minute and scored a nice shootout goal in the game doesn’t negate the fact that overall he had a poorish game (Not completely bad just not good).
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
He doesn’t even have to be one of the top 2 centers, just one of the top 6 forwards, which I believe he has been in camp.
And I’m not basing my theory (and it’s just a theory) on just the Pens game, but every game Kadri has played in to date.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Moving To Wing
I don’t know that they’ll want to get him off onto the wing if they have him pencilled in long-term as a centre.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
He’s definitely in our top 4.
Now find the equivalent quotation about Kadri.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Was that quote made before Sept 24th?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
No Idea
Was it? You found it! You tell me.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
No that was Ron Wilson on Nov 2nd, when the Leafs were deciding on whether to keep Schenn over the 9 games.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If you arguing that he should stick with the team in the start of the season, then I would be fine with that.
Not at the expense of one of our regulars, but I would be fine with him sticking around for a few regular season games. Just not past that magic 9 game mark
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
That’s how it started with Schenn ;)
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
and Bozak is next up after those two, he is much better than Kadri all over the ice and hasnt been to shabby offensively either, if any center should get the call to stay, it would be him
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, but I don’t agree with Bozak being better than Kadri this camp. Kadri has not once made a mistake that directly led to a goal for the opposition in 5 preseason games. Bozak has done this twice. I love Bozak, but it makes sense for him, Stalberg and Hanson to form the top line in the Marlies this year.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I don’t think it’s anywhere near that wide a discrepancy. I’m sure the stats are somewhere, but I think he’d be giving up more like 15-20.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
I’m not sure people realize that Kadri put on ~15 pounds of muscle this summer and he’s now around 180. They are still reading his player card showing ~165.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Bozak
put on 20 and he’s now 195, and still considered undersized.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Not finding much
Just one reference so far that the average player in Beliveau’s day was 5-10, 180, but I can’t tell if that’s real or pulled out of the writer’s backside.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Part of a study that I’m trying to find the rest of:
The research team studied 703 players from a Canadian-based NHL team from 1979 to 2005. The physiological profile derived from their research shows that over the 26 seasons, defencemen became taller and heavier as body mass increased; forwards got younger and had higher peak aerobic power outputs for cardio-respiratory endurance, while goalies were shorter and more flexible and had lower peak aerobic power outputs. All players combined (defence, forwards and goaltenders) increased body mass, height and anaerobic power over the 26 years.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
I know James has done more but I can’t find it. Here are the figures for the second round playoff teams.
Even at 180 he is giving away about 22 lbs on avg.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
The 83-84 Red Wings D
larson 6-0 195
park 6-0 200
smith 6-0 195
manno 6-0 195
ladouceur 6-2 220
barrett 6-1 210
campbell 5-9 190
melrose 6-0 205
The forwards were smaller. Typical 5-10 185. Yzerman was a tad above average, but below guys like Ogrodnick and Duguay and Boldirev, all of whom topped 6-0 and 200-odd pounds.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Leafs '84-85
Size discrepancy isn’t as big as we’d think. :
Rick Vaive RW 6-1" 198
John Anderson RW 5-11" 200
Bill Derlago C 5-10" 194
Miroslav Frycer RW 6-0" 200
Dan Daoust C 5-10" 160
Peter Ihnacak C 5-11" 180
Jim Benning D 6-0" 180
Borje Salming D 6-1" 193
Greg Terrion LW 5-11" 190
Gary Leeman RW 5-11" 175
Stew Gavin LW 6-0" 190
Russ Courtnall RW 5-11" 185
Al Iafrate D 6-3" 235
Walt Poddubny LW 6-1" 210
Gary Nylund D 6-4" 210
Jeff Brubaker LW 6-2’ 207
Jim Korn D/LW 6-4" 220
Bill Kitchen D 6-1" 200
Bob McGill D 6-1" 193
Ken Strong LW 5-11" 185
Bill Root D 6-0" 210
Steve Thomas LW 5-10" 185
Gary Yaremchuk C 6-0" 185
Tim Bernhardt G 5-9" 160
Gaston Gingras D 6-1" 200
Bill Stewart D 6-2" 190
Todd Gill D 6-0" 180
Allan Bester G 5-7" 155
Jeff Jackson LW 6-1" 195
Wes Jarvis C 5-11" 185
Ken Wregget G 6-1" 201
Greg Britz RW 6-0" 190
Larry Landon RW 6-0" 191
Derek Laxdal RW 6-1" 175
Basil McRae LW 6-2" 210
Craig Muni D 6-3" 208
Cam Plante D 6-1" 195
Rick St. Croix G 5-10" 160
Leigh Verstraete RW 5-11" 185
Leaf, the universe and everything.
There are some munchkins on that squad!
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Nazem Kadri can not be sent to the Toronto Marlies until the London Knights are eliminated from the OHL playoffs and the Mem Cup.
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Hmmm
“Heck, even an 18 yr old Phil Kessel survived to play 70 games.”
And was an RFA signed to a lucrative contact by another team at 21.
Give Kadri one more year at least.
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
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fries are done
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Shoulda dinged up my point about Malkin being on his entry-level deal last year because it’s just as salient.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Malkin isn’t that applicable. He didn’t play juniors and sort of showed up on Pittsburgh’s doorstep having defected. His contract was ticking either way.
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In terms of the value of keeping Kadri on an entry-level deal because it’ll give the Leafs’ financial flexibility (the same flexibility that allowed the Penguins to add Bill Guerin and Chris Kunitz) when they are contending again it’s a much better point.
It’s not about the decision with Malkin but the benefit.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Plus I like Godd more than you and I like to rep Peterborough.
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I’m starting to understand why there’s a whole bunch of kids running around this town that are exact replicas of Chemmy. (right down to the filthy jokes and the tendency to consider fashion something to be savaged)
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
by kidkawartha on Sep 24, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you saying the Leafs are anywhere near the Bruins in the talent they possess? Kessel didn’t get re-signed by the Bruins because they were up against the cap, do you see the Leafs have major cap issues in 2 years? I don’t.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
do you see the Leafs have major cap issues in 2 years? I don’t.
not currently, but a lot can happen in two years, I’m sure Boston didn’t see their cap cruch coming either or they would have found a way to work Kessel into it
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
We’ll need to re-sign Schenn and Bozak at the least. Ponikarovsky and Stajan are up after this year.
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If you are going to look at who we have to re-sign, you should also look at who will be coming off the books over the next 2 years:
Stempniak 2.5mil, Kulemin 1.48, Primeau 1.4, Van Ryn 2.9, Toskala 4.
I really don’t see how any cap problems for the Leafs within the next 2 years.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
all of those players will have to be resigned or replaced
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Why invite problems and start someone’s clock if we’re a 7-8 seed at best this year? If you want young scoring, give Bozak, Tlusty, Stalberg, etc shots…
This exact same argument was made against keeping Schenn, does anyone really regret that now?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
The cost of signing a mostly defensive defenceman to his first post-entry level deal v. signing an offensive star (fingers crossed) to the same deal is huge.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
I’d think that is a problem the Leafs would love to have to be honest.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
It’d be great to have to sign Kadri to a massive deal but it’d also be great to have a couple of years of him outperforming his contract before having to do so as well.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Schenn’s a stay at home d-man who’s already earning $2.75M. I can’t see him going over $5M.
I’d do a Schenn lifetime deal and try and get his cap hit around $3.5.
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as soon as the Leafs sign Schenn long term, that “investigation” into long term contracts will determine that they are illegal and against the CBA.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
No one regrets it because Schenn was great last year. We’ll regret it when we have to re-sign Schenn early.
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I thought that’s what Bozak, Hanson, Mitchell, Stalberg, Tlusty, Oreskovic, and Gunnarsson were for?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but you can only get so far on youth, not to mention Bozak and Stalbergs contracts are up a year sooner than the rest and the re-signings and raises of other players, not to mention the fact that the leafs are currently without a goaltender next year.
What if toskala walks, the monster suckes and Joey mac cant hack it?
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
They still have Reimer right? And that’s basically a worse case scenario, take the flip side of that, what if Toskala wins the Vezina this year? Rather than plan for the worst possible outcome, I’d have a little hope.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
well yes, thats the worst case scenario, the thing is even if the monster and toskala pan out they are both going to need new contracts, the vesa willl cost at least 3.5 a season and the monster about the same if he impresses. if you let one walk, you still have to sign joey mac to another deal as backup
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
And Joey Mac will command a fortune right?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
he’ll comand something, and who is to say he doesnt get offered something else and go to a different team
the major issue here is uncertianty
do the leafs need Kadri in the line up? will the crumble without him?
no
so why burn the contract when we dont have to, it doesnt matter what happened with schenn because its done and there is no way to go back on it
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
The Leafs didn’t “need” Schenn in the lineup to finish last in their division last year right? It’s about the player’s development.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
schenn is not a viable comparison in anything but age.
he was more physically mature, plays a totally different style and position
the leafs were a different team, one who wasnt trying to make the playoffs
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup
It’s about his development. There is still a lot for Kadri to learn on the defensive side of the game.
Maybe Wilson will decide that he’d rather teach him right now in the NHL like he did with Schenn and maybe it’s the right thing to do but, based on his own statements, it’s not likely to happen.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
If Toskala wins the Vezina then he’s not only not coming off the books but he’s getting a raise…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
If Toskala wins the Vezina, there will be a highly detailed NHL-initiated investigation into Toronto’s goaltending which will result in our losing draft picks.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
by kidkawartha on Sep 24, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
if Stajan has another year like this past one
his raise alone will take care of the Stempniak savings.
Schenn will eat up the Toskala contract all on his own. Kulemin will be resigned, for perhaps almost twice what he makes now.
So, that leaves 2.9 of MVR’s contract, and we’re now short 4 players…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, no one seems to care about losing a year off of Schenn now right, but it’s a big issue with Kadri? Do you see what I’m saying about all of the arguments having been said before? I’m not saying Kadri definitely makes the team, all I’m saying is it has happened before and nothing the other Leaf forwards have done in camp rules Kadri out to this point.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
except
that he’s not strong enough, is still a defensive liability and unlike Schenn, Kadri is buried on the depth chart behind three other centers who should be playing in the top 6.
For Kadri, it’s not a matter of him making the team to play 10 minutes a night on the 4th line. he needs to be in the top 6. Guys like Stajan, Grabovski and Bozak have been stronger away from the puck than Kadri has.
We’re all big fans of what this guy can do. When the space is available, and his conditioning, strength and defensive capabilities are no longer issues, he’s our #1 center. chances are, that’s next year.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with you about this. Kadri has matched up against some of the biggest teams this preseason and has put up better numbers than all three of the players you mentioned, including a better +/-.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Lots of people cared about losing the flexibility with Schenn’s contract. Off the top of my head Chemmy and MF37 here were the most vocal so they are being completely consistent.
Just because arguments were made before doesn’t mean that they were wrong.
nothing the other Leaf forwards have done in camp rules Kadri out to this point.
Maybe not but what Ron Wilson has said certainly points to the idea being ruled out.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Ok I heard you out
I still think Kadri should go back to the OHL.
Personally, I think Stajan and Grabs have been better than Kadri this preseason and Bozak has at least been on par. Bozak also isnt on an entry level deal so if you had to choose between the two, you wouldn’t want to eat up a year of Kadri’s right?
I get your points, and I respect you for trying to sell us on them, but the choice should be simple: let Kadri tear up the OHL in London, win gold for Canada in Saskatchewan, play in the playoffs with the Marlies, if applicable then win a Calder trophy in 10/11
Resident Cook and IT Superman
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I fail to see how Grabovski has been better than Kadri this preseason. All the stats are in Kadri’s favor including +/-, goals, points, shots on goal. Take last night’s game as well, the only plus players were Kadri and Tlusty.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
the only plus players were Kadri and Tlusty.
You are gonna use Tlusty to defend your argument? Really?
First of all, +/- is one of the worst stats to gauge a player with.
Secondly, yes Grabs has been better. Watch Kadri without drinkning kool-aid, and watch his overall game, watch his strength against the bigger defencemen. His body is not NHL ready yet.
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Truculence FTW
I disagree, and it’s not because of the kool-aid. As I said, I watched Kadri first hand against Philly (Not many bigger defencemen than Pronger) and he did great. I think the whole “his body is not ready” argument doesn’t hold water against his performance to date.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
+/-
I decided to look at some of the worst +/- players in the NHL since Tom is using that as a basis of his keep Kadri argument.
849 Dustin Brown -15
867 Rob Niedermayer -17
869 Anze Kopitar - 17
870 Drew Doughty -17
880 Brad Boyes -20
884 Rod Brind’Amour -23
My point is all of this was, you can’t use it as a front running argument for a player to stay up
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Not my front runner, simply a response to Kadri’s supposed defensive liabilities.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Rob Niedermayer was on a line that was considered to be one of the greatest shut down lines in the NHL at the time right?
17. means jack shit
+/
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Not last year he wasn’t and Rob Niedermayer was not an offensive forward.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Brad Richards, who is an offensive player
2006–07 Tampa Bay Lightning NHL 82 25 45 70 -19
2007–08 Tampa Bay Lightning NHL 62 18 33 51 -25
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Who played goal for Tampa again? And I’d certainly put Toronto’s defense this year up against Tampa’s of those years any day of the week.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Nikolai Khabibulin
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Umm no. More like Johan Holmqvist, Marc Denis, Mike Smith and anybody else they could find.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
so
what you’re saying is that it’s not the player on the ice who impacts their +/-, but the goalie…?
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
No, what I’m saying is basically what you said, it’s a team stat, influenced by all 5 guys on the ice at the same time and the goalie.
Why someone would think Kadri’s +/- would be horrible given the Leafs obvious advantages over Tampa in goal and defense boggles me. Would you say the Leafs defense right now is the same as Tampa Bay’s of those years, or Atlanta’s of past years?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
no
i’d say +/- is a shit stat and leave it at that.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t matter, he is an offensive forward, as you disputed Niedermayer wasn’t.
Let’s go last year then. Boyes is an offensive forward, as is Dustin Brown as is Kopitar. I realize they played for the Kings, but the plus/minus debate does not hold water, sorrry
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Of course it doesn’t hold water when you are looking at last place teams. Why do you think they finished where they did?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
because
+/- is a team oriented stat.
it’s not one guy but 5 guys on the ice who are measured by it, regardless of their QOC or who’s in net.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Crosby was a +3
Malkin was a +17
OMG MALKIN IS SO MUCH BETTER!!!!!
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If you want to ignore the fact that I’m not basing my evaluation of Kadri solely on +/- that’s fine.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Take last night’s game as well, the only plus players were Kadri and Tlusty.
You used that as a main argument.
Also Andy Wozniewski was a +5 in 07/08 for the Leafs.
Do I really need to say much more?
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are you shitting me?
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I know, I was stunned too. Try arguing with hard headed friends that he is the worst thing since something horrible when they have that stupid stat in their head.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
That’s not the main argument, that was a response to the argument that Kadri is a defensive liability.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
and
And Wozniewski just proved that +/- does not prove anything.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why +/- is a horrible stat to evaluate individual players on.
If the defense on a team can drastically reduce or increase it for a certain player it is more of a team thing then an individual thing. Yes it can have some relevance but it is still really dependent on other factors.
Even on the same team it may depend on what D men get put on the ice when you are out there.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Which is why +/- is a horrible stat to evaluate individual players on.
If that’s the only stat you base your evaluation on yes.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright, sorry taking a second to catch up here, but you also mention above that he has Grabs beat on Goals, Points, +/- and Shots on Goal this pre-season
Well he has played in 5 games vs 3 so I hope he has him beat on SOGs, but that alone shouldn’t really factor into the decision. Jason Blake is up near the tops of the league in Shots each year, But if you are taking low % shots you are really screwing your team more then helping.
Kadri’s first goal was a thing of beauty. His second against Pittsburgh, not so much. he had the benefit of being on the open wing in a 6th skater situation on an offensive zone faceoff. I would hope most players could roof it over a downed goalie in that situation.
Points – again he does have an extra two games here but just because Grabs hasn’t put up as many points I wouldn’t necessarily call that a failure on his part. I have seen him do a lot better so far in the preseason on things like faceoffs and puck possession down low.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
he had the benefit of being on the open wing in a 6th skater situation on an offensive zone faceoff. I would hope most players could roof it over a downed goalie in that situation.
Great players find the open spaces, the fact he was there to make it an easy goal is the skill on display. How was a 165lb weakling left open in the zone instead of plastered to the wall boards?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
6 on 5
no one was covering him…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
And that was in no way a result of him going to a place where no one was?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
when did anyone question his abilities…?
no one is saying he can’t play the game well. if we play all season 6 on 5, then ya, chances are he’ll not get bumped off the puck so much.
WHAT HAS HE DONE AWAY FROM THE PUCK?
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
What has Kovalchuk ever done away from the puck? Or Kessel for that matter? He’s not a two way forward, that’s admitted. Would I ask you how many goals Schenn scored last year? No, because that’s not what he is.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
As a center you need to be able to play strong off the puck as well. Kessel fits the wing better which is one of the reasons he moved to wing most likely.
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Truculence FTW
But not one of the reasons Kadri starts as a winger?
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Who moved to wing? Kessel’s been a wing since college I believe.
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Also check out Kessel’s bantam stats lol
86GP 176G 110A 286Pts
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I was going to post those here, Chemmy, but I didn’t believe them. :)
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
by kidkawartha on Sep 24, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Hysterical. That’s 2 goals a night and over 3 points a night.
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but what of his penalty mins?
does he have truculence hidden?
Refusing To Bow To Your Standards Since 2006
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s still hidden judging by his hit total.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
it can stay hidden
i’ll take the 2 goals a night thank you very much
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
secretly I just want to compare it to my bantam totals, it was the only thing i ever lead a team in
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m pretty sure Kessel played quite a bit of center for the Bruins prior to last year.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Faceoffs
2008-2009: 6th – 87/48.3% in 70 GP
2007-2008: 5th – 326/42.3% in 82GP (aside: I hilariously read someone bemoan that Kessel had never played more than 70 games in a year…duhhh)
2006-2007: 4th – 373/40.8% in 70GP
So he has been phased out of the role as he showed that he wasn’t good enough at an important skill for a top line centre.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Erm, I’m going to go ahead and say that all things considered Kovalchuk is a liability long term.
Sure, sometimes he’ll score the game winning goal, but he doesn’t play defense and is a lazy floater. He scores lots of goals by ignoring defense but probably lets as many in.
Ignoring that because honestly I don’t care about Ilya Kovalchuk, goals get players paid. Keeping Schenn up was and is a bad idea but it’s already done. We’re lucky though because it’s hard to quantify the contribution of a stay at home defender and thus they tend to not get paid as well as offensive d-men or slick scoring forwards.
Kadri is a slick scoring forward. He might not contribute as much to winning a game as Schenn but he’s going to get paid more than Schenn.
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EXACTLY
they’re different players, so let’s stop comparing the two scenarios as if they somehow are similar.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Different players, yes.
But the scenarios they are/were in are very similar in my opinion.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
beyond their age, there is no comparison.
Different players, different positions, different skill set and experience levels (Schenn had already won gold with the Canadian World Jrs.) different body types and different teams.
but ya, exactly the same otherwise
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re still talking about the players, not the circumstances.
Same NHL Team. Similar need to break into the top 2 lines. Similar preseason heroics in the shootout.
The circumstances are very similar, not the players.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
The team is completely different, the Leafs are far deeper this year.
everything else is arguing semantics at this point, and it doesn’t change the fact that Kadri will not see 70 games of NHL action this season.
you can retort with “in my opinion” all you want, but in Ron Wilson’s opinion, he goes to junior.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry I didn’t know I was debating with Ron Wilson. ;) Or are you basing this on what Wilson has said to date? Because to me that could change come Oct 1st.
I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything, I’m just stating my opinion, based on recent history, And that is that it is not entirely impossible for Kadri to make the team this year.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
your point is that Kadri will play 70 games because “in your opinion” he’s been better than the other Leaf forwards.
rather than use my opinion, I’m using RW’s to say that it probably won’t happen.
I’ve yet to see anyone doubt his skill on this site, or even say that he couldn’t be successful if he did make the team this year. The point is that the odds seem heavily weighted against him.
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry for the confusion, but my point was that it was possible, not a certainty.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
Anything
is possible
Teddy Roosevelt I believe. Not really pertinent to hockey though.
:)
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Circumstances are not really similar because they don’t play the same position, the outcomes reached by their success are not the same, the incumbent players on the team are not the same, and on and on.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
When that play started the 5 lined up like they normally would, the 5 defenders as well.
Kadri was on the other side of the ice hoping for a quick faceoff win and pass or a rebound which he got.
Yes credit where credit is due for him being there, but it wasn’t during a play where he went with hockey instincts, he went where the coach wanted him to go when the coach drew up that gameplan.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Mike Ulmer
He wants to send Kadri down but he wants to go one better in terms of keeping kids up on the big club.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
The Frat pack, frosh line, yadda yadda yadda.
1, 2 at best will crack the NHL line up, which sucks as Stalberg has shown flashes of being good, Bozak has such a high hockey IQ and possesses awesome skill and Hanson played, IMO, a great game last night and has been really good.
Time will tell, but if I had to rank em: Stalberg, Bozak, Hanson. The only reason Stalberg over Bozak is Grabs and Stajan have the top 2 center spots locked
Resident Cook and IT Superman
Truculence FTW
And the risk? None, really. These are men, not kids, so if poor play leads to a demotion to the Marlies, it’s a lesson well-learned.
Except, of course, what a full 82-game season will do to them late in said season. Imagine having all 3 highly susceptible to injury late in their first year as Leafs. I’m an advocate for keeping Bozak and Hanson up, but not for any more than 50 or 60 games, maybe rotated in and out with Stalberg a bit.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
by kidkawartha on Sep 24, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I think he’s underplaying the risk. There’s lots of risk. 1967ers LotD with Antropov highlighted the dangers of putting a player that isn’t physically ready into the league. That doesn’t really apply to that trio but the psychological impact could.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
I agree, but I do think my two picks would be fine. They give every appearance to be mature and stable, both from hockey and sporting families. And, of course, they’re college grads, not fresh out of some Ontario high school.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
by kidkawartha on Sep 24, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
plus
Bozak and Hanson have serious hockey hair.
you can’t keep good hockey hair off the roster…
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true. One more reason Kadri needs to go down, until he grows a desert warrior’s locks.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
by kidkawartha on Sep 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I may be echoing the thoughts of others above, but I too think Kadri needs to go back to junior this year.
Your arguments that player size isn’t as important are only partially true. Smaller guys with speed can and do succeed in the NHL. The difference is that those players are fully grown men both physically and mentally/maturity level/etc. They are physically strong for their size so they don’t get knocked off the puck easily and have learned to properly think the game so they can avoid taking big hits or minimize the impact when they do get hit. Kadri has shown wonderful maturity for his age but he doesn’t have the experience to think the game that well yet. He also hasn’t fully grown into his body or become physically mature enough, so he has got knocked off the puck too often.
Your comparison with Patrick Kane is interesting (and as an aside, even though he is a year older, I believe, you could have thrown his teammate Jonathan Toews into that mix). I think in that case Chicago didn’t have as much of a choice, the existing forwards on the roster weren’t good enough and Kane’s skill was therefore good enough to keep him with the big club. Not saying our forwards are tonnes better but we have enough decent depth there that Kadri would have had to play above his head to steal a spot. As awesome as he has looked at times he hasn’t consistently done that, thus it would not benefit him or the Leafs to keep him in the NHL.
Interesting arguments, and I am not completely denigrating what you have said, I just think Kadri is better off going to junior and learning to be more consistently excellent every game.
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!
by stucky on Sep 24, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Kadri has played 3 less games in the OHL than Schenn did before he made the Leafs. 3 games. I don’t completely agree that he needs another year in the OHL.
Sure Schenn has the one year of WJC, but had Kadri not had a broken jaw he probably would have had that experience as well.
I think we’re looking at Toronto’s “depth at forward” with a skewed perspective. In my opinion, the Leafs depth at forward is no greater than last year’s depth at defense.
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
See we really are dealing with opinions here. Where most of us here don’t think Kadri should crack the top 6 in regular minutes this year you do. And that is fine. To each their own and all that.
I think we all think that come next year we expect to see Kadri in the lineup, just not this year.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Again I do think Schenn is a different case. He has the same kind of mental maturity at a young age Kadri does, but he is much bigger and stronger so the physical concerns I have with Kadri at this stage don’t apply to Schenn.
I also happen to think Schenn is very much the exception that proves the rule, so to speak. You feel that way about Kadri whereas I and it seems most others don’t. Nothing wrong with that, sometimes it’s fun to be the voice of dissent!
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!
Can’t wait to see Kadri as Canada’s go to guy in the WJHC. Maybe he’ll be the guy to score a last second gold medal winner.
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I wonder if the Leafs organization has more faith in London’s hockey machine than the Kelowna rockets?
If you read betwen the lines of Wilson’s comments last year, they always struck me as a thinly veiled critique of Schenn’s WHL coaches.
Bitter Leaf Fan: a life-long Toronto Maple Leafs fan comments on the team, the media and the exasperation...
Good point. The Hunters have created an NHL player factory in London.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Someone here at work is selling about 20 London Tickets for 15 bucks a pop for October 3rd… I went to pick some up and they sold out already (it was like 10 minutes after the email was sent) Was so angry…
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
I’ve seen a couple games at JLC when in London (I have family and friends there so I visit from time to time). I’ve only ever got standing room tickets there. Great view of the ice from there though, and a hell of a nice building.
Being a Leaf fan here requires one to be sufficiently lubricated... and truculent!
Hunter also appears to be very much Burkie’s kind of coach. Now, the drafting corruption rumours, that’s an entirely different story………….
There’s a massive post in there all on it’s own.
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
not it
get to it!
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 24, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
5 preseason games is not enough time to risk making a decision on keeping Kadri up.
Also, 9 reg season games are probably not enough either.
Cannot argue the Schenn thing, totally different situation.
Kadri’s skill and talent will not disappear if he is sent back to Juniors. Give him some adversity to face because except for the WJ team(broken face) he has never been cut before.
Put a chip on his shoulder, make him work his ass of in Junior and bulk up in the off season… make him hungry for it and he can blow us away next year
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 24, 2009 5:12 PM EDT reply actions
I would like to congratulate everyone on a good debate without once delving into name calling or insults
this is why I love this site
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
The Toronto Maple Leafs debate team. Next stop, Harvard!
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
please! We’d hand to fancy pantsed Ivy Leaguers their lunch.
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by blindfolded tank driver on Sep 24, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s probably the Nachos and beer.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 24, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
i had garlic for dinner
just garlic
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by JaredFromLondon on Sep 24, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
not anymore….Jared the Vampire Slayer!
Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!
by blindfolded tank driver on Sep 24, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing better than a healthy debate with such a respected and knowledgeable group!
"Hey, when I was traded, it was just a draft pick! What ever would you complain about if New Jersey had picked Scott Lachance?"
by Tom Kurvers on Sep 24, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
so's your face!
"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell, a Leafs fan...
Stalk me here...
by blurr1974 on Sep 25, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Jerk!
"We've had an ongoing problem with Grabovski this year." Bob Gainey, 4/04/09
by kidkawartha on Sep 25, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Giant douche/Turd Sandwitch!
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 25, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions

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