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What is Ian White going to cost us this summer? (Part 1 of 2)

 Ian_white_medium

This is my long overdue look at just what it's going to take salary wise to get Ian White signed to a contract this summer.

A quick rundown of what I did; using the statistics engine at NHL.com and Behindthenet.ca, I developed a set of 5 different statistical ranges to compare Ian White to other defenceman in the league. I did this for both the first half of the 2009-10 season (all statistics are as of January 4, which meant every team had played about 41 games), and for the full 2008-09 season. 

 

Star-divide

Part I: 2009-10 Season
Exhibit I: Offensive Production

Using NHL.com, I've sorted all defenceman by Points per Game. Using Ian White as a midpoint, I've eliminated all D whose Points per Game production is not within 10%. This will form the basis of the comparison. (I've also excluded Bryan Rodney, Carl Gunnarsson and Brent Burns from this list because they all played less than 20 games to this point of the season.) This would leave us with the following Defenceman who scored between 0.45 and 0.55 points per game.

Player Games Goals Assists Points GPG PPG PPP PPP%
Tyler Myers 41 3 19 22 0.07 0.54 6 0.27
Pavel Kubina 40 4 17 21 0.10 0.53 5 0.24
Christian Ehrhoff 42 9 13 22 0.21 0.52 16 0.73
Ryan Whitney 42 3 19 22 0.07 0.52 11 0.50
John-Michael Liles 29 3 12 15 0.10 0.52 9 0.60
Kimmo Timonen 41 3 18 21 0.07 0.51 9 0.43
Michael Del Zotto 42 5 16 21 0.12 0.50 14 0.67
Bryan McCabe 42 5 16 21 0.12 0.50 11 0.52
Ian White 42 8 13 21 0.19 0.50 4 0.19
Mark Streit 43 4 17 21 0.09 0.49 6 0.29
Kurtis Foster 31 6 9 15 0.19 0.48 8 0.53
Ryan Suter 42 2 18 20 0.05 0.48 9 0.45
Brent Seabrook 40 3 16 19 0.08 0.48 6 0.32
Anton Stralman 38 4 14 18 0.11 0.47 12 0.67
Derek Morris 38 3 15 18 0.08 0.47 8 0.44
Keith Yandle 43 6 14 20 0.14 0.47 10 0.50
Fedor Tyutin 43 1 19 20 0.02 0.47 11 0.55
Matt Carle 41 2 17 19 0.05 0.46 7 0.37
Nicklas Lidstrom 41 1 18 19 0.02 0.46 4 0.21
James Wisniewski 37 1 16 17 0.03 0.46 4 0.24
Brian Rafalski 37 2 15 17 0.05 0.46 9 0.53
Francois Beauchemin 42 4 15 19 0.10 0.45 9

0.47

 

 

Two interesting things on that list; First, only Ehrhoff has scored more goals than White and has a better goals/game (Foster ties White). Second, of all these players, White has a very low percent of his points come from the powerplay. Look at some of those guys; 73% of Ehrhoff's points come with the man advantage, 67% for Del Zotto and Stralman. White's ES production is very strong compared to many of these guys.

Exhibit II - Time on Ice
Next, I've looked at the Time on ice stats for all the defenceman from Exhibit I. I'm going to narrow the list down by removing anyone who isn't within 15% of Ian White's ice time.

 

Player TOI PPTOI PKTOI
Mark Streit 25.41 5.14 1.37
Francois Beauchemin 25.21 3.15 2.58
Nicklas Lidstrom 25.18 4.12 2.53
Ryan Whitney 25.15 3.55 2.32
Ryan Suter 24.04 3.33 2.08
Brian Rafalski 23.59 4.03 1.30
James Wisniewski 23.49 2.03 3.44
Brent Seabrook 23.39 1.34 3.14
Matt Carle 23.26 2.54 1.19
Fedor Tyutin 23.21 3.21 2.44
Ian White 23.12 1.37 1.57
Tyler Myers 23.02 3.04 2.45
Kimmo Timonen 23.00 3.07 3.31
Bryan McCabe 22.33 4.17 0.55
Pavel Kubina 22.27 1.44 2.50
Derek Morris 22.07 2.45 2.30
Christian Ehrhoff 21.55 3.24 1.54
Anton Stralman 20.19 3.28 0.29
Keith Yandle 20.11 2.54 0.50
Michael Del Zotto 19.37 3.57 0.34
John-Michael Liles 18.27 3.40 0.16
Kurtis Foster 15.13 3.21 0.04

 

To read that table, Ian White plays 23.12 minutes a game, or 23:12. To be within 15% of that figure, a player would need to play between 19:25 and 26:16. This eliminates Del Zotto, Liles and Foster.

Suddenly, Ian White's low PP point total makes sense, since only Seabrook and Kubina play as little PP time as he does. Almost everyone on this list, except for those guys down at the bottom play around as much PK time as White.

Exhibit III - Defensive Production
There's more to being a defenseman than putting up points and taking up space on the ice; a Dman needs to be able to contribute in his own end as well. For this step, I've looked at everyone's totals for hits, blocked shots and giveaways. To take into account the fact that these stats are not as concrete as the other ones used, I've used 25% as the range, and to be excluded, a player had to fall outside that range in 2 of the 3 categories.
The ranges are as such; 23 - 39 hits, 50 - 84 blocked shots, and 29 - 49 giveaways.

 

Player Hits BkS GV
Francois Beauchemin 45 76 35
Matt Carle 14 65 31
Christian Ehrhoff 24 40 29
Pavel Kubina 50 70 18
Nicklas Lidstrom 29 37 27
Bryan McCabe 53 50 26
Derek Morris 30 44 11
Tyler Myers 45 69 52
Brian Rafalski 18 45 37
Brent Seabrook 113 79 26
Anton Stralman 27 33 13
Mark Streit 38 78 38
Ryan Suter 26 64 19
Kimmo Timonen 39 89 15
Fedor Tyutin 34 88 13
Ian White 31 67 39
Ryan Whitney 45 59 31
James Wisniewski 75 62 31
Keith Yandle 18 44 15

 

The bolded numbers are where the person falls outside of the required range. We'll now exclude the following players, who fell outside the range for 2 of the 3 stats:
Kubina, Lidstrom, McCabe, Morris, Myers, Rafalski, Seabrook, Stralman, Timonen, Tyutin and Yandle.

I don't have much to add here, except White has the second highest giveaway total of anyone on that list, only behind current and future 9-time Norris winner Tyler Myers.

Exhibit IV - Experience and Salary
Part of determining a player's value for a contract is their age and experience. An older player likely receives a contract of a higher value because of UFA status, while a big portion of a younger players' contract is going to factor in the potential development of their skills. So we'll look at the ages, years of both pro and NHL experience, as well as their contract.

 

Age Pro NHL Cap Hit
Francois Beauchemin 29  10th 7th 3.800
Matt Carle 25  5th 5th 3.438
Christian Ehrhoff 27
 7th 7th 3.100
Mark Streit 32
 5th 5th 4.100
Ryan Suter 24  6th 5th 3.500
Ian White 25  5th 5th 0.850
Ryan Whitney 26  6th 5th 4.000
James Wisniewski 25  6th 6th 2.750

 

Incredible. I'm going to eliminate Streit and Beauchemin from further analysis because they are a few years older than the others, and also Ehrhoff because he has more experience. So we have four guys that are comparable to White in terms of offensive production, ice time, defensive production, age and experience. Now let's get into the fun numbers, courtesy of Behind the Net.

Exhibit V - Behind the Net
I've pulled data for four major stats tracked by that awesome website, Adjusted +/-, Quality of Competition, Quality of Teammates, and Corsi ratings.

 

Player Adj. +/- Qcomp Qteam Corsi
Matt Carle 3.20 Wisniewski 0.066 Whitney 0.106 Wisniewski 14.10
Ian White 1.20 White 0.057 Suter 0.095 White 11.70
Ryan Suter 0.96 Whitney 0.025 Carle 0.038 Carle 9.80
Ryan Whitney 0.32 Suter 0.023 Wisniewski (0.013) Whitney 4.40
James Wisniewski 0.16 Carle (0.229) White (0.075) Suter 3.20


Let's step back for a second, because that's a lot of statistics to digest all at once, (and I still have a whole other set of numbers to talk about).

After half of a season, White has been scoring points at a greater clip than everyone except for Whitney, but he's scored as many goals as the four of them combined, and he barely scores any of his points on the powerplay. That seems relevant, since all of them play 3-4 minutes on the powerplay while White only gets about 1:30. That difference provides a good reason why White plays about 30 seconds to 2 minutes less than them.

Defensively, White registers more hits than Carle, about the same as Suter, and less than the two Anaheim guys. All five guys block roughly the same number of shots (all four were within the 25% range). Only Suter is considerably better with the puck; he has half the giveaways of White and the other three oddly enough all registered 31 over this period. All five guys are in their mid 20's, are in their 5th or 6th year in the NHL, and with the exception of White, they make between $2.75 and $4 million. Wisniewski is the lowest at $2.75, and he's also an RFA this year, so he could be expecting a raise as well.

Behind the Net puts White pretty much at the top for all four metrics; only Carle has a better +/-, and Wisniewski has a better Corsi rating and plays against slightly tougher competition. However, while Wisniewski's teammates haven't been great, White's quality of teammates is awful. He's the lowest of the five, and a couple of guys like Whitney and Suter have had much better teammates than White.

When you add all of that up, Ian White's agents have a pretty good case to ask for $3.5 million a year. Of course, the last thing we want is to get sucked into a contract year performance. Last season was when Ian White really started to blossom, so in Part 2 of this analysis, we'll look at the same stats from 2008-09.

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Great post and numbers all point to Ian White asking for a hefty raise, which he is entitled to considering his performance in relation to his current contract. I’ll have to see if White can sustain these numbers in the future, since I’ve always figured White as a Brian Rafalski clone with lower numbers because of the lack of PP time. And more importantly, how will we view White’s numbers when it’s in the $2.8+ million category instead of his $800K.

I will say, Jeff Finger, though a solid defenceman of his own ilk, really puts a wrench in the Leafs salary cap situation on the backend. Without him, White’s “new” contract would be far more palatable.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 15, 2010 12:28 AM EST reply actions  

marrrrrrrrrrrlies

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Jan 15, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

wouldn’t there be a team interested in Finger’s services at say, half the price of his contract?

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jan 15, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Worth a shot

Next year top 6 (at their current level of play, assuming Kabby & White stay)

Kab – Komi
White – Beach
Gunnar – Schenn

(not necessarily those pairings)

Finger would be the priciest 7th d-man in the league

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jan 15, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

*Beach = Beauchemin

spelling fail

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jan 15, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

This is a great post. Hopefully White comes real cheap

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by Kevin Sellathamby on Jan 15, 2010 7:52 AM EST reply actions  

understatement

of the year.

As posted yesterday, I’ve been a big White fan for the past 2-3 years, so I’m hoping we can keep him in the mix. But part of his awesomeness is the bang for the buck he provides. Does he look as good at $2M? $3M? $4M?

The Leafs have too much $ tied up on D already, so any money that goes to White has to come away somewhere else. If he signs for, say $3M, the Leafs will have 5 defensemen making north of $3M, which doesn’t seem sensible in a cap world. I much prefer the idea of a solid, dependable Top 4, with capable, cheap kids in the 5-6 spot ready for spot duty when one of the horses goes down.

Komisarek and Beauchemin were both burke signings so I think they’re safe. Which leaves one of Finger or Kabby as the other shoe that has to drop. As much as it would pain me, I think Kabby’s the odd man out. I don’t see how the Leafs D next year can consist of Kabby, White, Komi, Beauch, Schenn and Finger — as much as I’m fine with that on paper, it would mean serious shortfalls elsewhere.

by pevans on Jan 15, 2010 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Phenomenal Job

Fantastic post. Ian White (and his agents) should be paying you! Rec’d.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Jan 15, 2010 9:40 AM EST reply actions  

please hide this information from Ian White’s agent. Thank you

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

This is great stuff. Really nice to have a more empirical look at players and their contributions.

I do hope as part of your analysis you’ll look at post-lockout contracts signed by RFA D-men that are of a comparable age / production rate to White.

I realize this may be a very small group but I think it will be the most indicative of the market rate for a player like White.

As a complete aside, and I have absolutely no proof or evidence of this, I also think White’s physical stature will come into play and seriously constrain his pay day. Despite all numbers to the contrary, this is still a league that over-values big men.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 9:57 AM EST reply actions  

Things that work in our favor:

1. White’s an RFA
2. White is short.
3. If bidding gets out of hand for White we’ll gladly take the draft picks. What does White’s salary need to hit to be a first round pick?

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by Chemmy on Jan 15, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions  

$2.6 million and change, and it comes with a free 3rd rounder.

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

whoops, that was 2008’s figure.

Now it’s a shade over $3 million for a 1st and 3rd

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you happen to know around what time this changed from last year’s figures?

In the Name of the Holy Truculence

by steve_w on Jan 15, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Damn, at least June 29th by that forum.

In the Name of the Holy Truculence

by steve_w on Jan 15, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I do believe it gets adjusted when the salary cap is announced.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

and just before Free Agency begins

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks guys!

That puts some things in perspective.

In the Name of the Holy Truculence

by steve_w on Jan 15, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Once I got through the first three tests and looked at salary, I did take a look at when each of those guy’s signed the contract. With the exception of Beauchemin and Wisniewski, I think all my comparables signed their current deal in the summer of 2008. Obviously Beauchemin is a 2009 free agent, and so was Wisniewski, who’s on a 1 year deal (and really earning it).

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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions  

The other thing to take into consideration is draft order.

There’s a great paper out there that looks at how teams continue to pay a bonus (that’s the wrong word, a premium? a tax?) for players with an impressive pedigree. The fact that White wasn’t a first rounder will also have an impact on his compensation.

As for recent RFA d-men, NHL Numbers has last year’s list, here are a few:
Erik Johnson, STL
Braydon Coburn, PHI
Dennis Gerbeshkov, EDM
Daniel Giraradi, NYR

I’ll see if I can’t find something more comprehensive with multiple years.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Not only that ...

I think White should be the Captain of this team. Nobody has put with more stuff after getting sat out at the start of the season last year and has played so well for awhile now.

by hallandnash on Jan 15, 2010 10:13 AM EST reply actions  

In my ever level headed way

I took note of the fact that Lidstrom is one of White’s comparables and logically assumed that White will be a first ballot HOFer and will come to be known as one of the greatest defencemen of his generation.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 10:31 AM EST reply actions  

Why look at Lidstrom? He’s old news. White is compared to new hotness Tyler Myers in the first chart. TYLER FREAKIN MYERS!!!

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

The fact that Lidstrom doesn’t appear to block shots or give the puck away eliminated him from the list at Step 3.

But yeah, through those tests, White was performing pretty good compared to one of the 5 greatest defenceman of all-time. (A 39 year old top 5 D of all-time, granted, but still…)

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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, White’s a total stud. Definitely among the most underrated players in the NHL today.

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

ssshhhhhhh

you’re ruining it. :)

Great job. Thank you for all this work. Much appreciated.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow this is some excellent work. Can’t wait to see the 2nd part of this post to see how these numbers compare with his season last year.

I really like White and want him to stay, but let’s hope that if Burke does so that he negotiates well and gets White signed at a reasonable cap hit.

Thanks for your work on this, it’s very well done.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 15, 2010 10:44 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah, Ian White is pretty good, eh?
Apparently he’s not captain material b/c he’s a doucheface off the ice or whatever.

The Leafs need more douchebags.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Jan 15, 2010 10:45 AM EST reply actions  

Good work clrkaitken!

This puts White in some respectable company.

This just makes me hope even more that Burke can get him back reasonably next year. VERY underrated!

Looking forward to Part 2!

In the Name of the Holy Truculence

by steve_w on Jan 15, 2010 10:46 AM EST reply actions  

Side bar - since Captains came up

 I’m starting to warm-up to Kabby as captain. I liked the other day, when talking to the media he was all like “No one is going to help us here, not you guys not anyone” nice little pot shot at the media – a la Burke and Wilson. And he sounded angry, and a little passionate and I just didn’t know he had it in him
Plus he’s the longest standing Leaf. No one knows what being a Leaf is all about better than Kabby.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Jan 15, 2010 10:47 AM EST reply actions  

Possible, however...

the emergence of Gunnarsson coupled with White’s continued improved play could make Kaberle expendable in Burke’s eyes. The deadline and the offseason could be very interesting for Kaberle chatter…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Of course, I should’ve qualified the comment with “If he sticks”

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Jan 15, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

White’s peaked. He’s not worth more than 3 mil, at most.

His giveaway numbers are big because
A) he’s not talented
B) he’s puny

Look, he’s just a hard worker. Award him a longer term deal at 3.5 million a year and he’ll turn into the next Bryan McCabe. All of a sudden his talent will evaporate as he gets comfortable.

If we can get a 1st and 3rd round pick for him at 3 million, then that’s the maximum offer the Leafs should be prepared to give.

Look, let’s face it, the Leafs need elite talent. The only way you can get that is through the draft. If the leafs can get a 1st rounder for this guy, it’s worth it. He’s a 6th round draft pick!

by Peter de Chatham on Jan 15, 2010 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

draft round is irrelevant

you’re falling into the trap MF37 pointed up earlier that people fall into the trap of “but he was a 1st rounder” later on in his career.

I would be tempted to take the 1st and 3rd if White starts getting into loonie territory on salary, but the fact that he was a 6th rounder means nothing.

It’s not like anyone’s going to say at the deadline “yeah we really like Poni and want to trade for him. but we’re not giving up anything more than a 4th rounder since that’s where you drafted him”

by pevans on Jan 15, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

A) he’s not talented

I think that that has been pretty thoroughly debunked here.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 15, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

blurr speaks the truth.

jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog

"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)

by jrwendelman on Jan 15, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

He is talented, and hep plays a lot bigger than his size

His giveaway numbers, like Kaberle’s, are high because he is challenged with being one of the team’s two main puck movers, meaning he makes a lot more passes breaking out of the zone which could be intercepted, and also carries the puck a lot more than most defensemen.

Moustache Fever, not to be confused with swine flu.

by Shield on Jan 15, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, points taken. I’m not that great with hockey stats. But here’s some food for thought before you go all ga-ga over White.

“McCabe found his stride in Toronto and built on a 17-goal, 43-point breakout season in 2001–02, with 53 points two seasons later, culminating in a fourth place finish in Norris Trophy voting Second Team All-Star honours.”

“When NHL play resumed the following season, McCabe emerged with a career high 19 goals, 49 assists and 68 points in 73 games with the Maple Leafs. He finished the season third overall in points among defencemen, behind Nicklas Lidström and Sergei Zubov. "

So we signed McCabe to a long term deal. How did that work out for us?

I don’t think you have come to realize how deep a hole the Leafs are in right now. At best, Burke’s plan is going to turn the Leafs into a mediocre playoff team, maybe two years from now.

We need goaltending prospects. We need first line prospects. We need to partially replace those draft picks that we foolishly dealt for Kessel back.

This is the year to do it. This is the year, when we have a huge batch of UFAs and RFAs, to sell them like crack to contenders and reap a reward in draft picks. Not to get all sentimental for a guy who gets knocked off the puck easily just because he wears a mustache.

by Peter de Chatham on Jan 15, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

It wasn’t the long-term deal that made McCabe’s contract so bad, it was the NTC.

Freakin NTCs.

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jan 15, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, comparing McCabe to White is apples and oranges. One is a powerplay specialist with a defensive downside, the other is a well-rounded defenseman who can be offensive but is also very sound defensively. White could post career high numbers this year (in terms of points) yet still be a good signing because of his defensive ability, hardworking spark, and ability to play big minutes.

Moustache Fever, not to be confused with swine flu.

by Shield on Jan 15, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

we also have no idea about how good white can be offensively
how good would his numbers be if he got first pairing PP time?

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly, whereas McCabe’s numbers were due to his already being on the 1st pair. I personally think White could do more offensively, but my point was that even if he doesn’t, he’s still a solid top-4 defenseman who can move the puck up the ice, finish his checks, and is pretty freaking amazing on 2-on-1s and 1-on-1s.

Moustache Fever, not to be confused with swine flu.

by Shield on Jan 15, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, i dont think his offensive ceiling is as high as McCabes per sey, but I think he could at least get 50 percent more points if he had significant PP time

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That hardworking spark will disappear the moment he signs a long term contract with the Leafs (no movement or not), he gets a big head from all the fan support, and he starts turning into another entitled Leafs veteran.

His stamina will decline with age.

by Peter de Chatham on Jan 15, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

it may, or he might just keep it up, you cant say that he’s going to be exactly like everyone else

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s a pretty prejudice/stereotyping comment.

Moustache Fever, not to be confused with swine flu.

by Shield on Jan 15, 2010 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Ian White has moutsachulence, therefore all your claims are invalidated.

Moustachulence conquers all.

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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

His stamina will decline with age.

25 years old. How long of a contract do you think we’re going to sign him for? 13 years?

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jan 15, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That hardworking spark will disappear the moment he signs a long term contract with the Leafs

Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. What makes you think that other than cynycism?

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by PPP on Jan 15, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Peter,

I see your overall point and agree with it to an extent, but the single biggest difference between McCabe and White is that McCabe was a UFA.

White’s RFA status should not be overlooked here, if a team wants to sign him they’ll have to risk the Leafs matching or compensate the Leafs accordingly.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

True

And then when other teams start putting in offers for him, I guess we’ll see what he’s worth, moustachculence notwithstanding…

by Peter de Chatham on Jan 15, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

That will certainly be one barometer.

I’d be surprised if White signs for the money being discussed around here, but stranger things have certainly happened.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m not suggesting that $3.5M is by any means a lock, and in Part 2 I’ll show that if you combine the results of these two sets of data, the number does probably drop a little bit.

But I think this is a good indication that White’s agents are going to start negotiations at around 3.5, and that they wouldn’t be entirely out to lunch (like Dominic Moore’s agents) to do so.

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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Who is his agent? That’s another part of this that will be telling.

Get out your tinfoil hats, but I often wonder if the Leafs don’t waive certain players because they don’t want to jeopardize any important relationships with specific agents.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

McCabe

is a pretty good defenceman who got run out of Toronto thanks to a mob mentality seeking a scapegoat for a team that missed the playoffs, again.

Go back and look at his stats of the 06-07 season (his last in Toronto) and you might make yourself sick. He had 57 points, 11 from the PP, was a plus 3 with 115 PIMS in 82 games played. In other words, he exceeded his career high stats and the reason for his long term deal.

The Leafs that year were scoring at a clip of 3.1 goals per game, with goals against being 3.2 per game, thank you Andrew Raycroft.

Sorry, i’m just tired of the McCabe bashing. Some folks will say he was overpaid, but that’s never the player’s fault. You might as well be saying the next time your boss offers you a raise, you’ll turn it down so that your friends can’t tell you you’re overpaid. He played very well for the Leafs, and had the misfortune of scoring a goal on his own net. He’s not the first player to do so, and he’s certainly not going to be the last.

Sorry for that rant, I know I’m in the minority, but McCabe got a raw deal. I was so glad he was traded, but looking back now, it’s easy to see he was never the problem.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry for that rant, I know I’m in the minority, but McCabe got a raw deal. I was so glad he was traded, but looking back now, it’s easy to see he was never the problem.

I agree with this to a point, only because he was also never the solution, if you know what I mean.

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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

The solution

was better goaltending. Period.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, McCabe and Toronto had reached an impass
He was good, but he kept making high profile errors and got pigeon holed as a major piece of the problem.
People loved Sundin, Tucker and Kaberle too much to focus on them and Kubina just didnt make highlight real mistakes.

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Own Goals Aside

If McCabe was making Kaberle money, he would still be here.

Unfortunately JFJ made a huge mistake….

When you take up a significant percentage of a team’s resources you are expected to perform up to that investment.

McCabe didn’t(honestly, he probably couldn’t) and therefore needed to go.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 15, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

For $5M per

what were you expecting?

He put up three consecutive seasons of over 50 points and was a plus 24 over that stretch. The wheels fell off and he had a bad season, coupled with injuries, in 07-08, along with the rest of the entire Leafs team.

All I’m saying is he gets a disproportionate share of the blame, considering how well he played here. His being run out of town is a sad reflection of the patience and understanding the MSM and large portions of the hockey viewing public have when it comes to the Leafs.

He was a decent player for the Leafs, and considering the amount of points he put up during his stay here, I think it’s more fair to say that he worked hard at earning his money.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

See my post below.

I can’t speak for others, but his off-ice attitude didn’t endear him to me.

I agree with you that when he peaked he was a pretty important on-ice player for the Leafs, and I was mortified to be at the game where he came back and those idiots booed him all night.

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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

yup, and people talk like he was a defensive liability and forget that he had to totally change his defensive game after the lock out because of the new rules, it took him a while to adjust but he did

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Its easier to blame JFJ

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 15, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

you know who else its easier to blame?

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Before you answer that – go read my fan post I just put up.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 15, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

did you write about hitler?

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

No, he did a poor enough job writing about that himself.

I thought you were going to say ‘The fans’

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 15, 2010 3:32 PM EST up reply actions  

goodwin'd

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

His mouth got him into more trouble than his play.

He was one of the guys that seemed just a little too casual about how bad they were playing, and he was one of the guys that kept perpetuating the smokescreen that the team was done in by injuries every year.

There was never any accountability from him for his shortfalls, and as a team leader he paid the price.

If you want to ask why Sundin never had to answer the same questions, that’s a whole other debate.

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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions  

errr

06-07 was his second last season in TO.

too much multi-tasking, not enough proofreading. Sorry…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Not to get all sentimental for a guy who gets knocked off the puck easily just because he wears a mustache.

It’s not about getting sentimental about a guy with a moustache. Look at the stats. Ask for clarification if anything doesn’t make sense but what you’re looking at is a discussion geared at figuring out what it’ll take to sign a very good defenceman.

McCabe’s case was a bad comp because he wasn’t an RFA, JFJ screwed the pooch on the NTC, and he was never as good defensively as White once the can-opener got taken away.

I don’t think you have come to realize how deep a hole the Leafs are in right now. At best, Burke’s plan is going to turn the Leafs into a mediocre playoff team, maybe two years from now.

Oh, we know that the Leafs are in a hole but no one knows the latter.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 15, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post!

If I were Brian Burke, $3.5m sounds like a fair offer but I wouldn’t be surprised if Kevin Lowe offered $4m just to mess with Burkie.

-- Rock

My blog: Greetings From SoCal
My Twitter: RockFromSoCal

by Rock Outta SoCal on Jan 15, 2010 11:01 AM EST reply actions  

Based on the Oilers’ play I’d let White go and laugh all the way to the first overall pick next year.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 15, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup. Burke holds all the cards here.

If he re-signs White, he finds the best offer for Kaberle, and likely gets one of our Kessel picks back.

If someone makes a stupid-money offer sheet for White, we let him walk, get one of our Kessel picks back, and keep Kaberle.

Resident Capologist
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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Also, that scenario would be hilariously ironic.

Resident Capologist
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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 11:16 AM EST up reply actions  

for realz

as Toronto fans are learning all too well, not all 1st rounders are created equal.

Mind you, Edmonton seems to have hit that perfect storm of underperformance + injury ravaged this year.

If they pick up a Hall and add Eberle into the mix next year I could see a colorado-like bounce-back

by pevans on Jan 15, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Not unless they get a Craig Anderson-esque performance out of Khabibulin or find a solution to their goaltending.

And yes, I realize a Leaf fan commenting on other team’s goaltending problems is a pot calling the kettle black.

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jan 15, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

What no Chuck Norris?

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Jan 15, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Under his beard there is no chin, only a third fist

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 15, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking about doing a post like this

for the past week or so. Glad I held off! You did a great job!

3 years ago, I thought White was the most expendable of our D for various reasons. Looks like he has gotten most of his shit in order now and knows how to use his smaller size

Instead of trying to beat the bigger forwards down low, now he just tries to contain them. Two weeks before training camp two seasons ago, I emailed some buddies and mentioned that RW should play Ian White as a forward(ask Leafboy for verification). With his puck handling, skating ability and scoring flair, I figured his smaller size would be less of a factor. I also suggested that if we got an injury on D, he could slide back in there.

What I didn’t anticipate is he would take his game to another level as a defenceman.

Between him and Kulemin, these are the guys who exemplify the kind of hockey I want the Leafs to play. I’m a big booster for White.

I was hoping that at the beginning of this season we could get him for around 2 mil a year… right now anything around 3 million would be a steal.

Sign him and put the C on his chest…

and yes I am warming up to the idea of trading Kaberle – I hope Gunnarson can continue to develop.

Again, great post and I am looking forward to part 2!

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 15, 2010 11:17 AM EST reply actions  

Great post! I think White’s a keeper because more than anything he seems to care. His effort level and willingness to accept coaching has turned him from a spare part to an integral component of the team moving forward. More than anything he makes Kaberle expendable not because Kabby’s untalented, but because until now we didn’t have a guy similiar enough to him to replace him.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Jan 15, 2010 11:42 AM EST reply actions  

I think that Kabby becomes even more expendable given the play of Gunnarsson.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 15, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

indeed, i want to see more of Gunnar before i totally hop on that wagon, but he has been very good

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d like to see another 1.5 seasons of Gunnarsson before I make a decision.

The Leafs seem to be the model franchise for promising young D that turn out to be Anders Eriksson.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish that was an option, but If the Leafs lock up white and trade Kabby at least we have Ian

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

the jury is still out on Gunnar and will be for at the time you indicate. But if we can keep him in the 5th 6th spot eating 14-18 minutes a night and getting pk and pp time, than at his pay level I think we’d find that accpetable. But he’s no Kaberle or White yet, might never be.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Jan 15, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i think he had something like 3 more mins than kabby last night
but then Kabby barely played in the 3rd

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Kabby was soft defensively in the last two, maybe more. Last night wasn’t a banner night for him, but it’s not like he shit the farm

Wilson has a real soft spot for Gunnar, after discovering at the WC last year. Wants to see if he’s worth it.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Jan 15, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, agreed
if Gunnar can keep this play up till the end of the season, im 99 percent sure kabby is gone

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

somehow, Anders Ericksson is still in the league.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 15, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Much to Odin’s chagrin (if he is in Phoenix, as I think he is).

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 15, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

he is

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 15, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Slightly off-topic

But part of me is sort of glad Gustavsson hasn’t been godlike this season.

A Multi-year deal for much much cheaper than originally anticipated is in order. Will give him time to develop until he actually deserves a big paycheck

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jan 15, 2010 11:44 AM EST reply actions  

The single biggest factor here, bigger than all these great stats combined, is that White is an RFA.

He’s not hitting the open market, he’s not a UFA, the Leafs control his rights.

The Leafs will qualify him at $997.5K (or whatever 105% of his current salary is) giving the team the right to match any offer or be compensated should White sign elsewhere. And then the negotiations will begin.

The Leafs have all the leverage here and should seek a value contract while they have the hammer.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 12:28 PM EST reply actions  

Another part of White's game that has improved...

…getting his shots on net.

White is exactly average among NHL d-men that have played at least 20 games this year: he hits the net with 66% of his shots.

Last year, he hit the net less than 50% of the time.

To give it some additional perspective, Matt Gilroy has an astounding 85% accuracy rate, Kaberle leads the Leafs at 75% and only 5 NHL D-men are below 50%.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions  

75%

Yeah but Kabby only has 10 shots!

SHOOOOOT!! Pass?

by Leaf in Habland on Jan 15, 2010 1:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I was making a joke, but I decided to look it up. Kabby is 8th on the team in shots with 95—more than Stajan, more than Grabbo. Only 8 fewer than Jesu…I mean Ian White. He’s not really that bad.

by Leaf in Habland on Jan 15, 2010 1:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Anectodally it feels like he’s shooting more this season (probably because he is), although he still passes up some pretty good looks on the PP.

Resident Capologist
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by clrkaitken on Jan 15, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Be neat to see Ian White take up the left/point spot on the power play, and Kaberle Beauchemin take the right…

Kaberle on the bench.

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

but who will set up the telegraphed one timers?

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

exactly

They call me Splodeybones.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 15, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

the correct answer was “Phil Kessel”

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 15, 2010 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

how about...

Kabby on the bench for the PK, the final period and whenever a remotely physical forward is on the ice…?

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 15, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Doesn’t leave much ice ti… oh, wait, I see what you’re doing there.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 15, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice stuff.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 15, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Insightful comments like this need to be rec’d!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 15, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

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