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What is Ian White going to cost us this summer? (Part 2 of 2)

Last week, we looked at just how Ian White's play over the first half of this season was going to impact his value as a pending free agent. In Part 2, we're going to try and expand our sample size a little bit. 40 games isn't enough of a sample size to make a clear assessment of a player who's going to be looking for about $3.5 million; as Cliff Fletcher showed us, it takes about 97 games.

So in Part 2, let's go back and look at the numbers from 2008-09, when Ian White embraced the power of the moustache and really started to blossom into a player that's really worth talking about.

Star-divide

Part II: 2008-09 Season

I won't go into too much detail explaining the process in this post, because it's the same process I used in Part 1. Also, I should mention that I am aware that Ian White's statistics from this season are a bit skewed because of Ian White's brief yet successful stint as a forward during this season. However, given how White has built on his play from last year and is performing much better this season, I don't feel that it's worth the effort of trying to exclude those games and come up with some sort of normalized look at his stats. So on we go.

Exhibit I: Offesnsive Production
As with Part I, we start the analysis by identifying a list of players who scored within 10% of White's points per game ratio for the season. White scored at a rate of 0.37 points per game last season, which means we are looking at players who scored between 0.33 and 0.41 points per game.

 

Player Games Goals Assists Points GPG PPG PPP PPP%
Fedor Tyutin 82 9 25 34 0.11 0.41 17 0.50
Keith Ballard 82 6 28 34 0.07 0.41 18 0.53
Carlo Colaiacovo 73 3 27 30 0.04 0.41 20 0.67
Roman Hamrlik 81 6 27 33 0.07 0.41 3 0.09
Chris Campoli 76 11 19 30 0.14 0.39 11 0.37
Michal Roszival 76 8 22 30 0.11 0.39 14 0.47
Tobias Enstrom 82 5 27 32 0.06 0.39 14 0.44
Craig Rivet 64 2 22 24 0.03 0.38 11 0.46
Ian White 71 10 16 26 0.14 0.37 5 0.19
Steve Eminger 71 5 21 26 0.07 0.37 9 0.35
Stephane Robidas 72 3 23 26 0.04 0.36 9 0.35
Johnny Oduya 82 7 22 29 0.09 0.35 6 0.21
Braydon Coburn 80 7 21 28 0.09 0.35 11 0.39
Jeff Finger 66 6 17 23 0.09 0.35 2 0.09
Matt Carle 76 5 21 26 0.07 0.34 8 0.31
Drew Doughty 81 6 21 27 0.07 0.33 16 0.59
Trevor Daley 75 7 18 25 0.09 0.33 1 0.04
Zbynek Michalek 82 6 21 27 0.07 0.33 0 0.00

 

If you look at this list compared to the list we came up with in Part I, you can see that there aren't as many names of players that would be considered top-flight defenceman. This list is more reflective of No. 3/No. 4 (maybe even a few No. 5) defenders, which Ian White was for much of last season (behind Kaberle, Kubina and often Luke Schenn). A similar story still emerges; more of White's points come from goals (only Campoli matches him), and some of these guys are only here because they rack up the points on the powerplay (Hamrlik, Finger, Daley and Michalek are the only ones with less).

Exhibit II: Time on Ice
Once again, at this point we'll only continue with the players who are within 15% in either direction of White's average time on ice. This makes our range from 19:43 to 26:42.

 

Player TOI PPTOI PKTOI
Braydon Coburn 24.37 2.43 3.50
Stephane Robidas 24.32 3.56 2.32
Drew Doughty 23.49 3.37 2.58
Tobias Enstrom 23.31 3.18 3.23
Fedor Tyutin 23.30 3.47 2.37
Ian White 22.50 2.14 2.23
Zbynek Michalek 22.42 0.39 3.03
Chris Campoli 22.34 4.28 0.21
Michal Roszival 22.30 3.26 2.19
Keith Ballard 22.23 2.20 2.25
Trevor Daley 21.59 1.21 2.47
Roman Hamrlik 21.54 1.33 2.49
Steve Eminger 21.36 2.09 2.28
Matt Carle 21.23 2.19 0.57
Johnny Oduya 20.52 0.54 2.51
Jeff Finger 20.29 0.46 2.27
Craig Rivet 20.14 2.22 2.12
Carlo Colaiacovo 18.15 3.27 0.24

 

The only player we lose is ol' Splodeybones. There's not really much else to mention here; because we're looking at more 2nd and 3rd pairing D in this analysis, there is a much bigger spread in PP time. White falls somewhere in the middle.

Exhibit III: Defensive Production
As before, in order to account for differences in recording from arena to arena, we expand the acceptable range to 25%. Players needed to be within 2 of 82 and 138 hits, 85 and 143 blocked shots, and 40 - 68 giveaways

 

Player Hits BkS GV
Keith Ballard 172 136 71
Chris Campoli 81 86 29
Matt Carle 38 142 56
Braydon Coburn 146 129 59
Trevor Daley 30 98 31
Drew Doughty 90 114 75
Steve Eminger 77 119 28
Tobias Enstrom 29 120 45
Jeff Finger 136 158 55
Roman Hamrlik 104 195 78
Zbynek Michalek 69 271 31
Johnny Oduya 50 127 30
Craig Rivet 57 73 39
Stephane Robidas 221 109 44
Michal Roszival 90 113 32
Fedor Tyutin 103 98 26
Ian White 110 114 54

 

The bolded numbers are those that fall outside of 25%. We can now exclude Ballard, Campoli, Daley, Eminger, Hamrlik, Michalek, Oduya and Rivet. This time around White was much more in the middle of the pack in these stats; he's 5th overall in hits, and only Ballard, Coburn and Robidas had significantly more. He's around the middle in blocked shots, and only Finger, Hamrlik and Michalek (with an amazing 3+ average shots blocked per game) had significantly more. He's also in the middle of the giveaway list. I think this speaks to the fact that while most of these guys fall under the second pairing category, we're seeing a number of different player types here, so some people's numbers are way different from the mean.

Exhibit IV: Experience and Salary
As I noted before, part of determining a player's value for a contract is their age and experience. An older player likely receives a contract of a higher value because of UFA status, while a big portion of a younger players' contract is going to factor in the potential development of their skills. So we'll look at the ages, years of both pro and NHL experience, as well as their contract.

 

Age Pro NHL Cap Hit
Matt Carle 24       4th 4th 3.438
Braydon Coburn 23       4th 4th 1.300
Drew Doughty 19       1st 1st 0.875
Tobias Enstrom 24      2nd 2nd 0.900
Jeff Finger 29       7th 3rd 3.500
Stephane Robidas 31     10th 9th 1.500
Michal Roszival 30     11th 8th 5.000
Fedor Tyutin 25       6th 4th 2.844
Ian White 24       4th 4th 0.850

 

The numbers here are a little more all over the map than they were in Part I, so I'll move on pretty quickly. We can't continue with Doughty as a comparable because he's a rookie, and his cap number is determined largely by the CBA. There's nothing more to be said about Finger's atrocious contract, but we'll eliminate him, Robidas and Roszival because they were all Unrestricted Free Agents when they signed these deals. Carle, Coburn and Tyutin are all pretty comparable in terms of age and experience. And Enstrom stays because his age, he played a couple of years in Europe before coming over to the NHL, and most importantly he was an RFA in this season, and signed a 4 year, $15M deal in the summer. Given the objective of this whole thing, that seems relevant.

Part V: Behind the Net

Player Adj. +/- Qcomp Qteam Corsi
Ian White 0.92 Enstrom 0.029 Coburn 0.114 Coburn 12.00
Tobias Enstrom 0.90 Tyutin 0.022 Enstrom 0.079 Carle 8.00
Matt Carle (0.10) Coburn 0.014 Carle 0.023 White 6.20
Fedor Tyutin (0.12) White 0.007 Tyutin (0.023) Tyutin 5.50
Braydon Coburn (0.26) Carle (0.009) White (0.085) Enstrom (0.80)

 

It's interesting when you go through all this data, and see one or two names that keep cropping up. Matt Carle was one of the guys we identified as a comparable player in the first part, and if Fedor Tyutin had have had 4 less blocked shots in the first half of the 2009-10 season, he'd be here too. That makes them immensely important when it comes time for Burke's people and White's people to do their research for contract negotiations, they're going to come to the same conclusion that I did. Those two players represent the best barometer of White's worth at this stage in their careers, given their age, time in the league, and right down to the fact that all three have made the step up in scoring from 0.4 to 0.5 points per game.

Enstrom and Coburn are really bookends of this study; Enstrom's viewed as a more offensively minded defenceman, Coburn's viewed as a more defensively minded defenceman, their statistics both in this season and in the current one reflect that, and they get paid somewhat accordingly.

Tyutin signed his current deal upon arrival in Columbus from the Rangers. His annual cap hit is $2.844 million, but given that New York didn't really know how to use him / buried him behind Roszival and Redden, it's understandable that he's a bit lower on the pay scale.

We talked at length in Part I about how White stacks up against Carle, and just like in that study, white compares pretty favourably this year. Much like White's stats need to be taken with a grain of salt because of the time on forward, the fact that Carle was traded midway through this season, after a disastrous start in Tampa, skews the numbers a little bit.

Conclusion

I think at this point everyone would agree that Ian White is tremendously underpaid, and in line for a significant raise. But after really looking at what he's accompished over the past season and a half, it starts to become clear just how underpaid he is.

We identified a number of players who compare pretty well with White, and we saw that of players of a similar age and experience level, they seem to be making in the range of 3 - 4 million a season. We also found two players who have seemed to mimic White's step up in performance from 2008-09 to 2009-10. One of these players, Fedor Tyutin, makes 2.844 million and we could argue that he's underpaid too. The other , Matt Carle, makes about 3.4 million, and White performs pretty well compared to him.

I can't speak for White, White's agents, or Burke. But I'm pretty positive that most GMs in the league would look at all the data I just did, and say that White is deserving of a contract worth at least $3M, probably closer to $3.5M. If Burke came in with an offer for 3 years and $10M, I think that everybody would be pretty happy, and Ian White would remain an important member of the Blue and White for the rest of his mid 20s.

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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ouch. $3 mill for White will only happen if we dump salary elsewhere on the blueline.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 21, 2010 10:26 PM EST reply actions  

or bye bye Kabby once the NTC drops out in the offseason

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 22, 2010 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

This

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Seems likely and you concluded as such that talks with White will begin at no less than $3.2 million per season at least. Well, thanks for the memories White.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 21, 2010 11:01 PM EST reply actions  

i dont know waht the market is for $3m+ defencemen, but he might not find a long-term suitor on the market. if so, this next contract might bridge him to UFA status, and could therefor be shorter term and perhaps less than you think.

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 21, 2010 11:24 PM EST reply actions  

i dont know waht the market is for $3m+ defencemen

this summer specifically. given that the cap isnt going up and there are a lot of bad contracts already floating around out there hogging the dollars.

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 21, 2010 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

The market isn’t that big per se because White is a RFA, so not every team will have a chance to obtain him. But the trade market would be quite active because many teams will try to take advantage of Burke by giving a low second round pick for his services because of Toronto’s bloated salary on the back end. Luckily, White is a valuable commodity, just how much is the question for the Leafs when they can’t take much more salary for defencemen.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 21, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Qualify him, than watch the fireworks(and a lot of hope he doesn’t take us to arbitration)

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

RFA compensation

up to $2.6M is a 2nd round pick.

If that’s all we’re getting, I’d sign White at that price with no qualms. Still need to move some dollars, but that’s doable

But anything from $2.6-$3.9 and we’re entitled to a 1st and 3rd.
Seriously, if the choice is Ian White at $3.9M or those two picks, I’m tempted to side with the picks — and I like the guy.

More than $3.9 is just loopy.

by pevans on Jan 22, 2010 1:31 PM EST up reply actions  

So, offer him 2.6 over x number of years… probably not low enough $$ for him to justify going to arbitration for but high enough that no one will try and give an offer sheet to him… and if they do we walk away with their 1st and 3rd round picks.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Secret Weapon: Ian White

he can play forward, remember? he can justify the signing by assigning him to the 3rd line, then waiting until jason blake “has an accident”…

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 21, 2010 11:56 PM EST reply actions  

haha

except that he’s better than most of the defensemen already making $3.5 mill

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 22, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

squeezed out?

havent done the analysis, but i wonder how the UFA market is going to affect white’s chances of getting any kind of large contract this summer.

ignoring the possibly-retiring lidstrom & niedermayer, white will have to fight for top-D dollars against:
gonchar, kubina, paul martin, brett clark, willie mitchell, zidlicky, morris, lydman, corvo, tallinder, volchenkov, & hamhuis

the rfa list also has a few top names, meaning their teams will probably spend to keep them around for the future, further limiting the external dollars that can be offered to white.
see: erik johnson, grebeshkov, james wisniewski, coburn, grossman, niskanen, letang, staal, stralman, jeff schultz, hjalmarsson, campoli, quincey, boychuk.

im not saying that these guys are in the same skill range as white, but they are young and their respective teams are somewhat high on them. so they are more likely to be resigned than let go on the chance their team can steal white.

with the veteran presence on the market — a depressed market at that — and a strong crop of developing youth, ian white may not be looking at a lot of options that are willing or able to offer him anything north of $3m or $3.5m.

in which case burke would still hold the hammer and a fair, short-term contract might satisfy white & agent until the market opens up again and/or the cap starts climbing again.

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 22, 2010 3:33 AM EST reply actions  

But can we afford White?

Leaf Defensive cap hits next year:
Beauchemin – 3.8
Komisarek – 4.5
Finger – 3.5
Kaberle – 4.25
Schenn – 2.975 with bonuses
Gunarrsson – 0.626
White – 3.5 proposed

That brings us to a total defensive cap hit of $23.151 million with bonuses, which would be good for 4th highest in the league (compared to being 1st at the moment).

I feel that’s too much money being spent on the blue line without a guy like Lidstrom, Pronger, Phaneuf, Regehr, Chara, etc….

I don’t think the team can resign White while Kaberle is still on the team.

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 22, 2010 9:57 AM EST reply actions  

Agree

The best way forward, in terms of asset management and logic, is to trade Kaberle, sign White, and shoot Finger in the foot.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 22, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

If you shoot him in the finger though, it would be more comical.

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 22, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

We could shoot Adam Foote in the finger to even things out.

Why do we do this to ourselves?

by Kenjamin on Jan 22, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I like the way you think.

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 22, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Trade Kaberle waive Finger move on with life.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Jan 22, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I love Chemmy's posts lately.

He pops up infrequently, filled with vitriol and with a healthy dose of realism.

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jan 22, 2010 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

That's not lately

That’s his M.O.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

nobody is getting waived

despite blowharded claims to the contrary

by pevans on Jan 22, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not tomorrow.

But if next October rolls around, and Finger isn’t one of the top 6 defencemen, I could see him getting waived.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,689,840 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 22, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I see him being a healthy scratch.

by PassivelyTruculent on Jan 22, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Ian White.

3 years 10 million sounds reasonable to me. I would actually be in favour of giving him an even longer term given that he seems like a very well-liked guy in the dressing room and a definite candidate for an ‘A’ in the next few years. Especially if he sticks around and a certain defenseman whose name rhymes with Fomas Paberle is traded.

Why do we do this to ourselves?

by Kenjamin on Jan 22, 2010 11:09 AM EST reply actions  

Converted Ian White fan speaking

Although White is in a contract year, I think cirkaitken has proven that White’s level of play is not due to that specific issue. That said, last year White’s career trajectory looked fairly similar to guys like Wellwood and Coliacovo. He was challenged to earn his ice time, and he accepted the challenge.

Now, I’m not saying this will happen, but given that minor piece of history, I wonder how White would respond to a long term deal? Would he relax and go into “cash it in” mode? Seems there have been more than a few stories about his attitude, and it could all be for naught. I’m just asking the question. I’ve got no opinion on the matter personally.

If White can get over $3M per, I think I’d be more inclined to keep Kaberle and try and recoup a few draft picks. I just don’t think there’s a market for White. Of the names you’ve listed, I think Tyutin would be the most comparable. So, I’m asking myself, if Tyutin became available as an RFA to an offer sheet, do I think he’d be worth a 1st and a 3rd?

Great stuff again cirkaitken. Loving these player analysis posts!

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 11:35 AM EST reply actions  

This would be so much easier if Fletcher didn’t give us the Finger.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

Well

If White was playing like this before the Finger signing, I’d like to think Fletcher would never have even bothered.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

or if they had imagined Schenn would play the whole season

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 22, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

or if Van Ryn didn’t shatter like fine china?

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

They acquired Finger before Van Ryn

At the time of the Finger signing, they had Kaberle, Kubina, McCabe, Colaiacovo, White, Stralman and Schenn.

They were trying to get McCabe to go away, Cola couldn’t stay healthy, they had no idea what they had with White and Stralman, and they didn’t if Schenn would be playing the whole season or not.

At the time, it made sense; even though Fletch signed the wrong friggin guy.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,689,840 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 22, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

he didn’t sign the wrong guy, he just paid him too much. Say what you will, but if somebody offers you more money than you probably should get to do your job, why wouldn’t you take it?

Sauer (the rumored “real” target…) hasn’t played this year but for one game, so no point comparing current stats, but last year, Finger played 66 games put up 23 points (all even strength,) had 136 hits and 158 blocked shots. Sauer played 68 games, blocked 122 shots and had 91 hits, with 7 points to his credit.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

finger’s being paid about a million too much. not his fault. and yes, he had much better stats than sauer last year.

Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.

by daoust on Jan 22, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Even at 2.8 mil per year, Finger would be worth it.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

the real questions to me re: White and our D

The real questions to me:

How much can we get for kabby in a trade?

How much would kabby re-sign for after next year?

Even if there’s a decent return for him to be had (and there is), if there’s a chance we get him for $5.5M a year or something like that, i think i’d prefer that to white at $3.5M. our powerplay is bad now, i can’t even fathom what it would be like without him.

Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.

by daoust on Jan 22, 2010 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

I would generally agree with you, but the lifecycle of this team doesn’t quite add up to extending Kaberle.

Even if we somehow are competitive in the 2012-13 season, will Kaberle still be that guy at over 34?

At that point, White will be 28 and hitting his prime. I agree, over the next 2 years I would much rather have Kaberle QBing our PP than White, but we aren’t winning anything in the next 2 years.

If we re-sign Kaberle to a decent term and $ amount we need to make sure we can still flip him if need be.

Right now, I would peg Kaberle as worth a young top 6 player and a first round draft pick.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

our powerplay is bad now, i can’t even fathom what it would be like without him.

Well, for starters it would actually have movement to it.

Seriously, half the problem right now on the PP is that we have two guys on it who remain pretty stationary and try to run it like a point guard; Kaberle and Kessel. Just to see if it looks different, I’d like to Wilson put Kessel, Stajan, Poni, White and Gunnarsson (or Beauchemin) on the PP and see if it looks any different.

Kaberle’s got greater value in a trade because of his offensive skills. White’s ceiling is lower, but he’s a more complete all around defenceman.

Pull the trigger on Kaberle, get some young prospects to help fill up that cupboard, start grooming Gunarsson to take over the Kaberle role.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,689,840 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 22, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

White

new poster (today), Suffereing leaf fan since early 60’s

how about:
trade Kaberle to San Jose (missing link for cup)
in return for Deveon Setaguchi and 1st round pick if they wen Cup or 2nd round pick if don’t win cup)

by Coach01 on Jan 22, 2010 2:05 PM EST reply actions  

They have Dan Boyle. Not happening.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,689,840 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 22, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Welcome

Thanks for joining.

SJ has Dan Boyle though. Seems like overkill.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 22, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

And Rob Blake. And Vlasic. Kaberle doesn’t address a need.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,689,840 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 22, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Blake is 40

Vlasic is 22.

Neither put up points like Kabby can. Add to that a definite need for blueline depth if they want to make noise in the playoffs…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the trick is to get someone to over pay for Kabby, SJ doesnt have the dire need for him that creates an over payment, thus i dont think they are a viable destination

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 22, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Supply and Demand… which team (who wants to compete for a cup NOW) needs him.

San Jose – Nope
Calgary – nope
Vancouver – nope
Chicago – nope
Pittsburgh – maybe (Gonchar gets hurt a lot)
Washington – probably not
Boston – Wideman has had a poor year and Chara can’t do it all by himself..possibly
Detroit – they need a goalie before they even bother looking to add to their veteran blue line
Los Angeles – If they were one more year into their development, than maybe… but they are taking the slow path – probably not
New Jersey – maybe – but I wouldn’t want to be making any deals with Lou – he always wins somehow.
NY Rangers – they have great young Defensmen… they could really use Kaberle but they would have to kill Redden first.

In short, the teams that need an edge right now and who don’t already have a world class defence are Pittsburgh and Boston. Also, if you end up dealing in the East (which you may have to, because the West are helladeep in D) then you could start a bit of a bidding war. Even the competitive teams in the East who don’t necessarily need Kaberle to take the next step would rather have him than give another team the edge.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d take Boston’s or Pittsburgh’s D over San Jose’s any day.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

You see more San Jose games than I do, so I won’t argue.

Maybe it is just the quality of their forwards that make their D look good.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

more like

Na-bo-kov

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Kaberle and all, but he seems to get stripped of the puck in our corners as frequently as Kessel does on our PP!

I hope we trade him and I hope his new team overpays!

"Windows 7 was my idea--and I am suing"

by pbkunkel on Jan 22, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I know Wash never would trade for him

But honestly my mind explodes when I think of the PP unit of:
Ovi – Backstrom – Semin
Green – Kabs

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jan 23, 2010 1:52 AM EST up reply actions  

so's your face!

They’ve got a 40 year old Blake, Boyle and then a star studded cast of such names as Kent Huskins, , Jay Leach and Douglas Murray.

Vlasic is a keeper, but he’s only 22. There’s a definite gap in skill on the blue line.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

San Jose is more likely to make a play for Ian White than Tomas Kaberle.

They don’t need a guy who contributes on the PP and not much else. White takes the load off of Blake and Boyle, can play in all situations, and is super cheap so San Jose doesn’t have any cap issues with.

White for Couture, straight up. Would San Jose do it?

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,689,840 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 22, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

would they?

my guess – no…

:(

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

They might say no, but I think they’d at least stop and think about it…

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,689,840 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 22, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions  

they're in a "win now" mode

and I think Kaberle would be a more desirable piece for them. White and Boyle are very similar in style. Kaberle is a better option for them on the transition..

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

SJ IMO isn’t in the Kaberle sweepstakes simply because they don’t have the Cap Space for him (even after factoring a pro-rated amount.)

by PassivelyTruculent on Jan 22, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

they have more cap space than the Leafs currently, not to mention $34.7M in cap space next season…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 3:27 PM EST up reply actions  

to add tto that

Setoguchi and Pavelski will both be RFAs, so their resignings shouldn’t be ridiculous salary bumps. It hinges on whether or not Marleau’s $6M is off the books.

all that, we’re just speculating. Coach01 floated San Jose as an option, and it went from there. No one’s saying it will happen…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

NHL numbers shows

San Jose has 1.3m cap space this year
Leafs have 2.3 m cap space (LT IR)

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm,
is Cap geek counting Bozak’s bonus?

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

in that chart, yes

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Jan 22, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Imagine San Jose PP

Boyle and Kabe on D
Thornton, heatley Marleau

championship!!!!!

by Coach01 on Jan 22, 2010 2:09 PM EST reply actions  

use reply, saves clutter makes conversations easier to follow
but hello, welcome

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 22, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

hi

welcome aboard and thanks for joining. ditto on the reply, etc etc….

that said, I’d be worried that Setoguchi becomes the next Cheechoo. He was hot last year, but hasn’t seen the same PPG pace with Heatley as a Shark. Last year Devin was at 0.8 PPG, this year, it’s been almost halved.

I’d target Logan Couture, another center in their system, a position at which the Sharks are stacked. Plus, Couture has already put up 42 pts in 31 games, his first year in the AHL…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Couture

works for me….potential to be a #1 centre

by Coach01 on Jan 22, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I still think the biggest component of determing White’s contract value is his RFA status.

Offer him $2.59M max and if he signs an offer sheet elsewhere, grab the 1st and 3rd picks.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Jan 22, 2010 3:02 PM EST reply actions  

yup

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

if he opts for arbitration, whatever deal is awarded is a one year deal, correct?

Just thinking if it goes that route, the Leafs could potentially see themselves facing the 11/12 season without White or Kaberle…

(Leafs fan, worse case scenario thoughts are second nature sometimes…)

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Jan 22, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think Burke can afford to not trade Kaberle during his trading window.

We can’t extend him until December(I believe) and with all the talk of ‘I want to play in Toronto’ crap, I’d hate to see him go to FA.

Damn NTC

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

no, july 1st of your last year of contract is the earliest you can get extended. (not december)

you may have blocked it out, but rick nash signed july 3rd, remember?

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 22, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that’s better, but when does his NTC kick back in?

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 22, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

If that’s the case, than we can negotiate this summer with him – if he is willing to take a deal that doesn’t involve a NTC and is somewhere around 5.5 a year (front load for trade purposes, if necessary) then we can extend him.

I just don’t want to be stuck holding the back on him if he won’t be ‘the guy’ when we are actually competing for something. These 30ish guys really scare me right now because when we are actually good they will be 33-34 and entering the twilight of their career.

I need an out if it means signing any impact player past their Best before date.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 23, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

back=bag

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 23, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

kaberles age doesnt scare me

he’s only 31, and he hasnt had the kind of career that will wear him down.

forwards are a different story because they take so much abuse regardless if they are a power forward or not, but for a defenceman like kaberle he really hasn’t had that much grinding down over teh years.

niedermayer 35, jovanovski 33, timonen 34, pronger 34, rafalski 35, gonchar 35, spacek 35, salo 34, rob blake 39, and even the lamentable mccabe is still producing at 34.

“the twilight of their career” hasnt really happened yet for these guys (they averaged around *45 pts last year; *after projecting gonchar), so I’d be fine with taking another 4-5 years of kaberle if the price is right.
all of the above were in the top 40 of NHL defence, meaning that steady performance would still make kaberle the #1 or 2 offensive D option on the leafs.

and considering how much he’s been able to do with the meagre scraps left him by the recent house-cleaning, when the team is actually competitive and there are some more capable teammates, he could actually plateau at 45-50 pts for the next 4 years.

not to mention how his opportunities would improve once the 3 major pieces schenn-beauchemin-komisarek actually learn to play with him the way white has; if you dont have to worry about covering someone else’s ass you are able to take more rushes up the ice and/or expect an outlet pass from your pairing partner for said rushes.

defence last a long time in this league now. kaberle will probably play until hes 38, and i think he will still have some productive years left for the time-frame that the leafs are hoping to compete.

keep the guy for the next wave of playoff-entries/early round years, and if you walk away from him hopefully someone like white/mikus/gunnarsson etc will be able to carry the PP for a deep finals run and cup…PLAYOFFS!!!!1

sorry, got ahead of myself there. got too drunk on the wine of future grapes.

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 23, 2010 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

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