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Around SBN: 2011 In Extreme Home Runs

History #23 - The Leafs vs. the Habs

Back in December, an article appeared over at thehockeywriters.com that purported to be a comparison of Leaf and Hab fans.  In the end, it was just a thinly-veiled spin of the old "Habs have a 'winning tradition' and therefore the fans don't accept mediocrity" blather.

There was a moment of interest in the notion that the French/English dynamic in Montreal was somehow reflected in this fan experience, but that never seemed to get beyond the point that some Montreal players were, in fact, English.  At no point was it ever really shown that this was a) by design or b) relevant.

What really irked me was this:

If you go deeper into the statistical analysis using the annually updated "NHL Official Guide and Record Book", it’s easy to uncover the underlying reasons for the greater number of cheering opportunities that lucky Habs fans have enjoyed from the start. As of 2009 and in exactly the same number of games played in all-time NHL history (5,874), the Canadiens have scored 19,284 goals. Over the same all-time period, Toronto has scored 18,189 times. Not even close. The Canadiens have won 3,021 regular-season games, the Leafs 2,569, a significant difference. The Canadiens have had better goaltenders, as evidenced by the incomparably higher number of Vezinas in the trophy cabinet. They’ve had better defensemen, as indicated by the Canadiens’ ten Norris trophy wins compared to zero by the Leafs. In fact, they’ve had more star players in virtually every category.

Now, if you really get into the numbers, a lot of this comes off as absurd. 

The "not even close" goal total?  The difference between the two teams is 1095 goals.  Sounds like a lot, but that's taken over 91 seasons.  It works out to a difference of 12 goals per year.  If you prefer, it's the difference between a team that scores 3.29 goals per game and a team that "only" scores 3.10. 

The win difference works out to just less than five per season.  Now, five wins is ten points, even in Gary Bettman's NHL.  That's significant, isn't it? 

Well, yes and no.  Let's look a little further into it. 

The truth of the matter is that virtually the entire win discrepancy boils down to one factor:

Star-divide

Harold_ballard_medium

Seriously. 

The distinction between the Habs and the Leafs boils down to the fact that the Leafs got Harold and the Habs didn't.  When you compare the team histories and remove the Ballard era, the Leafs and Habs aren't just similar - they're clones.

Now, within the Ballard era, there are really two distinct phases.  In the '70s, the Habs were going bonkers while the Leafs were always fair-to-middling - mainly because they sold off most of their farm system in the late '60s  (hey, free money!) and then got perpetually mauled by the WHA because Harold wouldn't pay anyone.  In the 80's, the Habs faded to being quite good but never dynasty-quality, while the Leafs one-upped them by going straight into the toilet.

Beyond that, as I said, the two teams are virtual clones - at least in terms of their records.  The rest of it - the counts of Norris/Vezina trophies, etc. is really just the result of stylistic differences and in some cases, timing (you can't win trophies that don't exist yet).  I'll get to that later (the next history post, actually).

First, though, let's deal with the records.  I've broken it up into some different time periods.  The first two represent the first 50 years of NHL action, subdivided by the start of the Leaf era (1926-27) and ending, appropriately, with the 1967 Stanley Cup.

The Dawn of Time

1917-18 - 1925-26 (9 seasons)

 GP  W  L  T  OTL  PTS  PCT  Cups  Finals
 Toronto Arenas/St.Pats  226   112   109   5   0   229   0.507
 2   2 
 Montreal Canadiens  226   115   105   6   0   236   0.522  1   3 

1926-27 - 1966-67 (41 seasons)

 GP  W  L  T  OTL  PTS  PCT  Cups  Finals
 Toronto Maple Leafs  2388
1089  904  395  0   2573
 0.539  11
 19
 Montreal Canadiens 2388  1174 804  410  0   2758  0.577  12
 18

Add that all up and the Cup total is 14-13 Montreal (counting the Habs' pre-NHL win - otherwise it's 13 each).  Finals appearances are 21 apiece.  In 2614 games, Montreal has 88 extra wins and 6 extra ties.  Over 50 seasons, that's 1.76 extra wins per season.  A slight regular-season advantage, but the championships were a wash.


Pal Hal Reigns

1967-68 - 1978-79 (12 seasons)

 GP  W  L  T  OTL  PTS  PCT  Cups  Finals
 Toronto Maple Leafs  938  402  381  155  0   959  0.512  0 0
 Montreal Canadiens  938  587  196 155  0   1329  0.708
 8
 8

1979-80 - 1989-90 (11 seasons)

 GP  W  L  T  OTL  PTS  PCT  Cups  Finals
 Toronto Maple Leafs  880
 301
 481
 98
 0   700
 0.398
 0
 0
 Montreal Canadiens  880
 476  280
 124
 0   1076
 0.611 1  2



These are the Ballard years.  It's not perfectly clean as Harold didn't have full control until 1971, but he was making his influence felt as the sale of the farm system predates his full takeover.  I broke it down to show both the scope of the '70s Hab dynasty and the spectacular wonder that was the '80s Leafs.

During the Ballard era, the Habs won 360 more games than the Leafs did, tied an extra 26 and had 9 extra Cups in 10 extra Finals appearances.  Note - that win total is 80 percent (well, 79.6) of the total win discrepancy over the 92-year history of these teams. 

Thanks for the memories, Pal Hal. 

Post Hal

1990-91 - 2008-09 - (18 seasons)

 GP  W  L  T  OTL  PTS  PCT  Cups  Finals
 Toronto Maple Leafs  1442
 665
 586  130
 61
 1521
 0.527
 0 0
 Montreal Canadiens  1442  669  569
142
 62
 1542  0.535
1
 1

Since Pal Hal died, the Leafs and Habs are basically the same team.  Montreal has won four extra games in 18 seasons of play (12 if you count this wonderful season we're currently enjoying).  That one Cup in 1993, well, we all know that story.

The Montreal Canadiens managed to avoid a completely horrific owner and they were able to stretch their heyday an extra dozen years past the point where the Leafs' ended.  For that they are to be congratulated.  They also never managed to plumb the depths to which Harold led the Leafs.  Another factor that plays in a bit is that Montreal's worst decade was played under a 48-game schedule.  Toronto's was played in an 80-game schedule.  That skews its impact on the overall totals.

For most of the past two decades, though, the Habs have been exactly where Toronto has been.  There is no winning tradition any more - the dynasty years are 30 seasons gone.  There is just a team that trades on its past and suffers under the expectations of the present - just like Toronto.  How that manifests itself in the fan base is anyone's guess.

What I want to talk about in the next one of these is what I see as the real difference between Montreal and Toronto, particularly in their respective heydays.  It was a question not of substance, but of style.

Comment 91 comments  |  14 recs  | 

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This article is the casus belli why traditional media can bend over and let me kick them in the ass a 1,000 times. Absolutely beautiful work, 1967er’s. Rec’d for eternity.

I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.

by kidkawartha on Jan 27, 2010 3:10 PM EST reply actions  

+1

Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism

by Ubiquitous on Jan 27, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

If ever there was a reason to invent a time machine, it’s to go back and off ol’ Pal Hal before he got his grubby claws all over the Leafs.

Anyway this is excellent information and clearly eye-opening, especially to Hab fans and Leaf haters who blindly and dumbly insist the Habs have always been clearly superior. Or in other words, it’s completely beyond the capacity of these people, not to mention the MSM, to understand.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 27, 2010 3:26 PM EST reply actions  

That was exactly the same thought I had.

Alternatively, if you could bring someone back from the dead to kill them it would be Ballard. What a wanker.

by gooner4ever on Jan 28, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

superb work, my dear. You are amazing.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 3:40 PM EST reply actions  

I guess I see what you’re getting at but eliminating the darkest point of our history seems unfair to say our histories are identical, you know?

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Jan 27, 2010 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

The caveat is a big one, I’ll grant you that. 25 or so years of history is a big chunk to remove… but this does bring to light the fact that for 66 of 91 years, the Leafs and Habs were right on pace with each other.

Although it isn’t safe to say that even without Ballard the Leafs would have been good as the Habs during that period, it does give you one of those ‘what if’ moments.

Just another reason (as if we needed another one) to hate Ballard

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 27, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

The 70s Habs were a team for the ages – there’s no question of this.

At the same time, the Neilson-era Leafs were right on the cusp of being something really good. Take those teams and add, say, Dave Keon, Bernie Parent and any of the defensemen that walked because Ballard hosed them. They’d have put up a pretty good fight.

The point really is that the perceptions are skewed. What is being presented as something that has always been the case is really just something that is tied to one period of horrific ownership.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Jan 27, 2010 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course, if you eliminate all the losses, the Leafs are unbeaten since 1917. :)

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Jan 27, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

If you go deeper into the statistical analysis using the annually updated “NHL Official Guide and Record Book”, it’s easy to uncover the underlying reasons for the greater number of cheering opportunities that lucky Habs fans have enjoyed from the start.

Remember – this is what we’re talking about. And it’s not even close to being true.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Jan 27, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

My ears are burning...

And my god, that’s a handsome devil up there.

by Harold Ballard on Jan 27, 2010 4:07 PM EST reply actions  

why would the parent of the Leaf fan baby let him be friends with the Hab fan baby?
That’s irresponsible parenting.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I would go further and state that it is a form of child abuse

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jan 27, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Fixed

In the end, it was just a thinly veiled spin evidence of the old “Habs have a ‘winning tradition’ history of rioting and therefore the fans don’t accept mediocrity players fear they might be incinerated if they don’t win every game”

There, all fixed.

Habs bashing is fun! i should try it more often.

Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism

by Ubiquitous on Jan 27, 2010 4:13 PM EST reply actions  

Jim Carey Price

got called out by his own teammates. Check it out at TSN. Hilarious.

by penaltyshots on Jan 27, 2010 5:35 PM EST reply actions  

I prefer “Scarey Spice”

Space Weed Says (Insert Generic quote about blog here)
"DO NOT get stuck behind Kyle Wellwood in the buffet line. This isn't really etiquette, but it will prevent you from starving to death"- Down Goes Brown on Etiquette for Jason Spezza's wedding

by Kevin Sellathamby on Jan 27, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, Markov. But either way, his time has to be nearly up in Montreal. Essentially, his career was over in Montreal when he paid homage to Patrick Roy in last year’s playoffs.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Great article. Now i’m going to repeatedly link this to some stupid Habs fan i know

Space Weed Says (Insert Generic quote about blog here)
"DO NOT get stuck behind Kyle Wellwood in the buffet line. This isn't really etiquette, but it will prevent you from starving to death"- Down Goes Brown on Etiquette for Jason Spezza's wedding

by Kevin Sellathamby on Jan 27, 2010 5:38 PM EST reply actions  

You can't be serious...

You can’t actually think this was a legitimate look back at history? You’re premise is “if we take the worst two decades out of TML history, they’re almost the same as the Canadiens! SEE!?” How pathetic.

In order to make this an accurate examination wouldn’t you also have to remove the Rejean Houle era from Montreal’s totals? It’s also convenient that you remove Montreal’s most successful decade to further your argument. It has nothing to do with Montreal’s “heydey” surviving longer, it was better management, better players, better coaching. You can not honestly think this article proves some kind of point. You also nicely gloss over the fact that Montreal won in ’93 while Toronto was too busy bitching about one penalty in a 7 game series.

And to say that Montreal’s players are considered better due to style? Give me a break. The NHL is so far up Toronto’s butthole that if you ever had a legitimate star player they would be the most glorified player in history.

The bottom line is that throughout the existence of the NHL the Canadiens have been managed in a FAR superior way to the Leafs, and this has produced nearly twice as many championships.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 5:51 PM EST reply actions  

actually I think it’s proving that the only time the Canadiens have ever been FAR surperior than the Leafs were during the Harold Ballard years. Saying it’s consistent through the whole history of the two teams is erroneous. But from the 70’s-end of the 80’s the Habs ruled over the Leafs.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks to a GM who was activly doing everything in his power to destroy the organization

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 27, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Or maybe thanks to a brilliant ownership and management group in Montreal who turned a solid team into the best team ever to play in the NHL. But lets ignore that shall we?

If you take away all of Montreal’s wins, and all of Toronto’s losses, Toronto’s better! Right?? Do you see how stupid this argument is? If we ignore all the time that Toronto has sucked for, they don’t suck anymore! Whooo hoo!

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

that’s not at all what he’s saying.

There is no period in Montreal’s history where they had to endure an owner like Ballard, which is why they are the more storied franchise. It’s just that if you go back to 1967 and kill just one man, it’s likely the Leafs have a much better 20 years in the 70’s and 80’s than they did, and would therefore be closer to the Habs in terms of history.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok, so how many more cups would the Leafs have had in the 1970’s and 1980’s? Could they ever beat the Canadiens, Islander or Oilers? I doubt it. Conversely, how many more cups could Canadiens fans dream of if Rejean Houle was never GM? Or we could go back further and take back Chelios, Lemieux, Roy, Damphousse etc. It’s a nonsensical argument.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

read BK’s summary below, I can’t say it any better.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

the leafs might have 10 more cups, or they might have the exact same amount they do now
that isnt the point. The fact is that Ballard actively traded away the leafs best players, destroyed their farm system and killed any chance they had to be competitive for a good long while and without him there is a damned good chance the Leafs would have had more wins than they currently do and thus a history more comparable to that of the Habs

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 27, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Rejean Houle and to a lesser extent Serge Savard in partnership with Ronald Corey did the exact same thing to the Canadiens in the 90’s. So there’s no difference. If that hadn’t happened the gap would be wider, I still don’t see the point in this revisionist history.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

it’s a counterpoint to the article from thehockeywriters.com

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not very effective as a counterpoint to anything.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

the hockewriters article maintained that the Habs have always been miles better than the Leafs.
The only time in the history of the franchises that this was actually true were the 20 years the Harold Ballard ran the team.
20/90 is nowhere near always.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Because you haven’t read the piece critically. Whether that’s because of a lack of ability or a lack of desire isn’t clear but read it.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I still don’t see the point in this revisionist history.

Considering you don’t seem to have a basic grasp of reading comprehension I’m not too shocked.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, really?

Comparing Houle, Savard and Corey’s impact on the Habs with Ballard et al’s on the Leafs is like comparing the impact of a brief thunderstorm and a hurricane. Which do you think is more devastating?

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 27, 2010 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Rejean Houle?

So you’re comparing 21 years of Harold Ballard to 5 years of Rejean Houle?

HAHAHAHAHA Ok.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

the best team ever to play in the NHL

And that’s why Habs fans are simply not worth listening to. More or less forever.

I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.

by kidkawartha on Jan 27, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Buddy

Try reading the post without your Habs blinders on.

But lets ignore that shall we?

Except, it’s not ignored. Feel free to actually read the post and respond to those arguments.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And yet in the 90’s where nearly everyone agrees that the Canadiens sucked, we still ended up with more wins and more cups. Fancy that.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

four wins more.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

One Stanley Cup more.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

yes and you had the best goalie in history singlehandledy win not just a playoff game, not just a playoff series, but effectively the entire playoffs by himself.

give any team that kind of one-of occurance and they too would have 1 cup.

but we’re talking about regular season performance here.

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 27, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Regular season being the only games Leafs fans want to talk about, I understand.

And yes Roy was amazing, but winning by yourself is impossible. Last time I checked he didn’t score any goals. Arguing that Montreal was more successful because they had better players just makes Toronto look worse.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Why?

Montreal did have better top players than Toronto.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Because of better management. Which makes them a better organization, therefore defeating the entire purpose of this article.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Better management or not (which is debatable, considering pre-1967, Toronto and Montreal both had a monopoly on the best management), that is not the point of this article.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

That guy couldn’t find the point of this article with a burning police car.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, of course not. He’s too busy booing the next saviour of Montreal.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

What did the Habs win?

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,533,679 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 27, 2010 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

If the Habs win, fans burn a few police cars, if they lose they burn twice as many. That’s how it works, right?

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 27, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

if you dont think that 1993 was not all because of roy, you know nothing about hockey.

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 27, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Roy is my favourite all time player, but the 1993 Canadiens were still a good team. Look at the roster: Desjardins, Muller, Carbonneau, Damphousse… etc.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You won 10 OT games that year. You guys went on a ridiculous streak of luck in addition to having the best goalie of all time.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you’re taking this too literally. No team will have the two exact same histories. But the point about this article was to showcase the differences between the two teams isn’t just simply Toronto throughout the years have been terrible, while the Canadiens as a whole have been the greatest team from inception. That’s all.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody ever says that Toronto has been horrible throughout it’s history, they have 13 Cups, they say the organization sucks and has a culture of losing since 1967. And it’s true.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

toronto has won more playoff rounds than any other Canadian team since 92

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Jan 27, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, the culture of losing thing is true right now, but from what i know, wasn’t the culture before the craptacular teams of the past few years.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

And that’s produced what?

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

You didn’t read the original article that this post was refuting, did you?

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course not. Why would he bother reading it if he didn’t even read this one.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Congratulations! You've finall understood the point of the article!

But that was the entire point of the hockey writers post. They were saying that the Habs were always better which isn’t true.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

boy, are you deaf or just plain stupid?

in 1400 games, the margin of difference was 4 games.

effectively the same.

by Death_By_Leafs on Jan 27, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Effectively or not, Montreal’s worst era and they ended up better than the Leaf’s best decade since 1960. And they won a cup, huge difference. It’s like comparing the Sharks to the Ducks.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Congratulations

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Well you can choose to be obtuse if you wish, but I think the numbers show things pretty clearly. For the first 50 years of the NHL the Leafs and the Habs were very close in terms of regular season success and number of Stanley Cups won. Anyone can see that.

Of course it diverges after that. No one is suggesting that the Habs were anything but professionally run and top notch in every respect from the original NHL expansion through the 80’s. And thanks to that bastard Harold Ballard, the Leafs were the complete opposite. The Habs success in that period is genuine, real and well-earned.

After that, well things do get close again don’t they? You can’t deny that. And yes we can’t deny that the Habs have a Cup win in that time and the Leafs don’t. Personally I feel the Habs benefited from facing a lesser opponent due to the most incompetent refereeing decision in my lifetime. Too bad we never got a chance to figure that out.

Anyway, the facts are laid out right there in front of you. You can ignore them if you wish. It doesn’t make them any less true.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Jan 27, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Personally you believe the LA Kings were a lesser opponent because you’re a Leafs fan. The Kings won, Toronto lost.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

Hahahaha.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Bottom Line?

Feel free to read the article again champ.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

The biggest reason for MTL and TOR history diverging

is that Montreal had an embargo on the first 2 draft picks from Quebec for 30 years. Imagine if Toronto had the same regarding the first two picks from Ontario.

by penaltyshots on Jan 27, 2010 5:58 PM EST reply actions  

there was some sort of law where Toronto got first dibs on players in certain geographical regions, but sometimes we by-passed them or let other teams get them at a younger age (see: Bruins; Orr, Bobby).

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Except Montreal only used that rule once, and in order to use it they had to give up their first and second round picks in the draft. And the one time they used it both players ended up busts. So no, that has nothing to do with it, but nice excuse.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

No, Montreal had first dibs on Quebec players until the 1960s. But they signed them to intent sheets where once they signed their names, they were Montreal Canadien property in perpetuity. However, the Leafs had a similar advantage, too, since Ontario was essentially their territory and once they signed said player, they were Leafs property for life if I recall correctly.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

indeed

that’s how it worked, only the standard was to sign players at 16, and the Bruins signed Orr at 15 (I think) which is why the Leafs lost out on him.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s not what penalty shots was talking about, he was talking about the drafting of Quebec born players once the NHL entry draft replaced c-forms. As you said, the Leafs had the same advantage, only it was for all of English Canada.

http://berkshireonthehabs.blogspot.com/

by Andrew Berkshire on Jan 27, 2010 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

1967ers or someone with more exact information should probbly correct me

Similar advantage, I wouldn’t say same per se. Toronto had a clear advantage over the American teams, but not so much against Montreal, since Toronto couldn’t really touch Quebec at all. As such, Montreal got their pick of stars from a smaller base (thus, they couldn’t really miss), while Toronto still lost out on Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, etc. amongst others because it was such a large territory. I guess it depends on how you perceived the advantage. More numbers, but higher chance to fail and/or miss (English Canada). Less numbers, but lower chance to miss out on a player because the absolute stars will not be snatched up by another team (French Canada).

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

No, they didn't.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I remember Habs Eyes on the Prize debunking that claim.

Montreal won because the Leafs gifted them Frank Selke and Sam Pollock. If the Buds had managed to keep those two hockey geniuses who knows what the Habs would have done.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait, the Leafs gave up Sam Pollock, too? Yikes. This was during the Ballard’s end of days wasn’t it? Yeah, Rejean Houle was just like good ol’ Harold, how did we miss that one.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I was wrong

Pollock was not a Leaf. He was an anglophone which one Leafs fan mocked a hardcore Quebecois Habs fan about. For all they talk about the Flying Frenchmen they wouldn’t have existed without the Excellent Englishmen. I mixed it up.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.

by PPP on Jan 27, 2010 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

From a bully pulpit up the river

Ah, nothing stokes my hate like the condescending vitriol of a self satisfied Habs fan with boundless delusions of grandeur. Truth be told, the divergence of fortunes began when Pal Hal sold the farm and Sam Pollock kept his. His cupboard full of warm bodies, Pollock traded them for picks to hapless expansion teams. In ‘71, his wheeling and dealing, including a trade to increase the chances the team he had traded first round picks with would finish last, netted him Guy Lafleur. (Marcel Dionne was taken second). This put an end to his piss poor drafting record of the 60’s (Guys like Cournoyer, Lemaire, Lapointe and Savard had all been acquired via c-forms). In typical Habs fashion, a move that was basically tampering became the basis upon which Pollock was elected the anglophone God of Mtl.
In a possible addition to my conspiratorial tendencies he also drafted Ron Wilson and Keith Acton.

by blue with age on Jan 27, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

The Leafs really can’t get rid of Keith Acton, can they?

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Jan 27, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Why are we bothering with Berkshire? He’s completely convinced that the Habs are superior in every imaginable way, when a very great deal of the success there is due to luck and the avoidance of the french canadian version of Ballard.
One thing’s for sure, he’s extremely sensitive about this subject.

I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.

by kidkawartha on Jan 27, 2010 6:45 PM EST reply actions  

because I’m bored.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Jan 27, 2010 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I think we need to bring back the MBA’s again…

Truculence...starting 10/1/09

by LeafBoy on Jan 27, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post, 1967ers. You, sir, are what the kids would describe as being on point.

There will never be another. Thanks for the memories // Read the Blog and follow your Hunger

by Hungry Leafs Fan on Jan 27, 2010 6:59 PM EST reply actions  

I would just like to see the Leafs win in the future. The past is what it is. All the what-ifs in the world won’t change it. I’m not bothered by Habs fans who claim this or that. I’m not a Leaf fan because I think we have the greatest franchise in the history of the NHL. I’m a Leaf fan because I grew up watching them with my dad. I moved to Montreal for work, with an open mind to maybe making the Habs my second team. Despite all the “history” I just couldn’t. I don’t like the team, and the fans are annoying. Nothing anyone can say will make me less of a Leaf fan, not even Vesa Toskala’s disconnected ramblings about how he thinks he’s playing. Certainly not an idiot Habs fan yelling 67. Yes, that team from the 70s (I forget the year) probably was the best team ever. I wasn’t born. I don’t care. We Leaf fans now have exactly what we’ve been begging for since Pat Quinn traded for Owen Nolan (maybe even before that): a real rebuild; youth; hope (real hope). We said we would be patient. Let’s be patient. 2569 wins, 18,189 goals. You know what the best of those is? The next one.

by Leaf in Habland on Jan 28, 2010 12:33 AM EST reply actions   2 recs

Can this be our new mission statement?

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - only $1,512,953 to go!

by clrkaitken on Jan 28, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Please send this to my folk

Great post 1967ers; I may be on the opposite side of the rivalry, but I’m really getting sick of Habs fans who only talk about the 1970’s. Here’s hoping we’re battling for the top spot in the division soon, rather than fighting for 4th in the Northeast- the rivalry needs a boost!

by westcoasthabs on Jan 29, 2010 2:30 AM EST up reply actions  

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