Are Trade Winds Blowing?
So as of today the Leafs will likely have over $5 million in cap space, assuming Jeff Finger clears waivers and is successfully demoted to the AHL's Toronto Marlies. While it is entirely possible the brain-trust at MLSE is happy to have Finger waiting in the wings as an expensive backup plan, the Leafs development timetable indictates that he won't be there long.
Consider the following points:
1. The Marlies will have Simon Gysbers, Keith Aulie, Korbinian Holzer, Juraj Mikus, Danny Richmond, Matt Lashoff AND Finger patrolling the blue line, along with the team's current leading scorer Mike Brennan. That's 8 defenders, three of whom are veterans of 5 plus seasons of pro hockey (Lashoff, Richmond and Finger). Brennan, Richmond, Holzer and Lashoff have all been added by Brian Burke and Dave Nonis this past off season, while Aulie, and Gysbers were added last year. Finger and Mikus are the only two to predate last season with the Leafs, and Mikus was brought to North America by Brian Burke in order to develop... he's 21 years of age.
2. Finger wouldn't last through recall waivers if the team tried to call him back up as a fill in. Many NHL teams would be happy with the serviceable D man at half of his $3.5 million a year salary ($1.75 million a year - with the Leafs picking up the other half of the tab).
So the question becomes, whose development comes at the expense of Jeff Finger? The Leafs have too many D men in the organization, and one or more of them need to be moved. Even if Finger isn't the one to be dealt, this likely signals a trade.
So who makes sense as a trading partner?
Right up against the cap, playing with 17 skaters (below the NHL minimum 20), the Devils need serious cap relief between injuries, and the Ilya Kovalchuk debacle. They boast 6 defenders, including Anton Volchenkov, Andy Greene, Colin White.... and Matt Taormina, Alexander Urbom, and Mark Fraser. Bryce Salvador and Anssi Salmela haven't seen game action yet, due to injury.
You'd be forgiven for not recognizing the names of Taormina, Urbom, and Fraser. Urbom is a 19 year old rookie that played one year for the Brandon Wheat Kings (12 g, 33 pts, 66 gp) after being drafted in the 3rd round, 73rd overall in 2009 following a 28 game season with Djugardens that saw him post 0 points. Taormina had a legitimately solid season in the AHL with Lowell last year, posting 10 goals and 50 points in 75 AHL games... he's also on the small side, standing 5'11" and 185 lbs. Fraser is the cheapest skater on the Devils roster, raking in $500K in salary. He also skated in 61 NHL games for the Devils last year posting 3 goals and 6 points.
Adding a player like one of the Leafs younger defenders may give the Devils some breathing room on the back end if they can dump some of their forward salary in exchange. Travis Zajac likely seems like a painfully high price to pay for economic freedom, but Lou Lameirello's options are limited. Patrick Elias or Jamie Langenbrunner may seem more palatable given their ages, but neither one lines up at Centre, which is where the Leafs need help.
The Flyers are up against the Cap, and they have a surplus of forwards, along with a need in net (as per usual). Yes Sergei Bobvrosky is holding down the fort reasonably well... for now... but his 9-22-3 record last year, and 7-20-2 record the year before in Russia may not indicate he's the best option to go with.
The Leafs boast James Reimer, Ben Scrivens, and Jussi Rynnas at the AHL level, any one of which might entice a deal from the orange and black. Considering Ville Leino and Nikolai Zherdev are unrestricted free agents (likely due sizable raises), while Jeff Carter, Claude Giroux, Darrel Powe, and Daniel Carcillo are all RFAs, the Flyers may have some concerns about how much they're paying in salary a year from now.
Moving a player like Carter for a package of prospects might not be a bad idea at this stage for a team that only has 12 million in cap space available in next season to sign 6 key forwards. Tomas Kaberle wasn't enough to get it done in the past, but perhaps the likes of Christian Hanson or John Mitchell along with a goaltending prospect will be enough to get Philadelphia thinking salary dump.
Deep at Centre (despite the loss of Marc Savard to concussion symptoms), the Bruins have shed some depth at D in the past year, having dealt Dennis Wideman in exchange for Nathan Horton. Michael Ryder, Mark Recchi, and Marco Sturm are all veteran salaries coming off the books in a year, so the pressure isn't as high going forward.
They could use some depth from the back end though, as their 7th D man is currently Adam McQuaid, who is more noted for his physical play than any sort of offensive production. He has 19 games NHL experience, with 1 goal and 21 penalty minutes last season. Adding a name like Gysbers, or Richmond might be beneficial to them down the line.
Patrice Bergeron just signed an extension, Nathan Horton was just traded for, and Tyler Seguin was drafted 2nd overall, so the most likely trade option would be 24 year old David Krejci. The Leafs would likely have to add in another prospect to make this even remotely plausible, but the Bruins cap issues are worth mentioning, particularly since they just re-signed Zdeno Chara to a long term deal.
Other Ideas?
It's entirely plausible that nothing will happen on this front. the Leafs have tried to make trades most of the off-season, and teams may be wary of Brian Burke's penchant for Horse trading. That being said, win win deals make both teams better off, and Burke is fond of making it clear that this is his M.O.
If you have any other possibilities, toss em out for discussion in the comments.
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I think we make a trade, but not until we hit a losing skid or lose somebody to injury. There’s no reason to force change if the current group of players is working.
Loving the Leafs is like being in love with a drug-addled, gambling addicted prostitute with a heart of gold and a bunch of humanitarian awards from her youth. It’s hard. It hurts. But dammit! I just love them!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 13, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I disagree. I’ll allow that most NHL teams will wait until November to make any moves, but if the Leafs are still firing on all cylinders at that point, that’s exactly when they should make a trade.
Why negotiate from a position of weakness? It’s like being a general manager who is told by his corporate board to make the playoffs at any cost, or he’s fired, and then being asked to negotiate contracts with your top players.
Same deal if the Leafs are bottoming out in the standings.
Also, Burke will never trade someone he signed as a free agent from college/overseas. He’ll only trade the Leafs own draft choices. Thus, I can see Mitchell being traded, but not Hanson.
Finally, if the Leafs are doing well, then Kaberle is enjoying playing here and won’t waive his NTC.
Brett Lebda is an anagram for BATTLE BRED. Anger is more useful than despair.
by Peter de Chatham on Oct 13, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they should extend Kaberle ASAP.. like, today
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by maplestirup on Oct 13, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think so too.
"Our bottom six should be nicknamed The Intangibles." -Plea From A Cat Named Felix
Leafs fan till the end!
by whyevenbother on Oct 13, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Finger & Scrivens for Jeff Carter!!!1
The biggest Mike Zigomanis fan on this website
by Archimedies on Oct 13, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’d put Finger in the Marlies press box.
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* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Put him in the stands, help fill the attendence woes.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Oct 13, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
They could pull a souray or (the guy from the caps whom they buried) and loan him out to another AHL team while eating his salary.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Jay McClement for Selke in 2011. Justice will be served. Penalties will be killed.
Michael Nylander?
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by CanadianMaple09 on Oct 13, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not sure I would say that Finger getting claimed on re-entry waivers at $1.75M is a sure thing. There aren’t many teams with money to spend. I can’t really think of a team that would want him. Most of the contending teams are up against the cap and most of the non-contenders would rather save money and allow a young player to develop. Maybe a team like the Ducks might be interested but they would probably rather wait for Souray to hit re-entry waivers. I really can’t see many teams wanting Finger even at $1.75M.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Oct 13, 2010 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Me neither. At the least, it’s not a definite, forgone conclusion that a team would want Finger even at half his salary. PS. not a slag aimed at Steve per se, but in general
BS
by MapleLeafMole on Oct 13, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
All of those teams have cap issues but I think it’s safe to say that teams that need to address cap issues jettison guys that are not near the calibre of players that you’ve mentioned.
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I don't see why
The idea that teams will be able to jettison useless or aging veterans that nobody wants is sort of a flawed one from where I sit.
As a pure salary dump maybe, but what incentive would the Leafs have in such a deal? Burke has oft stated a need for help up the middle from a scoring perspective… even if he takes on a checker that’s helping, it’s unlikely he wants someone else’s cast offs at this point.
I admit some of the younger guys are less likely, but Boston isn’t going to be able to trade Savard, New Jersey can’t trade Rolston, and while Philly has more options, I’m not sure who they want to trade, and Carter’s contract is the next big one to expire.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I can read what you're typing
but all that’s making it to my brain is “Kaberle for Carter and a 1st”
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Oct 13, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Brennan doesn’t have an NHL contract, at least according to CapGeek. He’s the odd man out in the short term.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
He has
an AHL contract… and is listed on the Marlies roster. If he’s the odd man out, then he’s unlikely to be possible to deal either.
If you’re saying he sits, then I can understand it, but either way, he’s younger than Finger, so I don’t see that lasting into the longer term.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Who do you think is better, Zajac or Krejci?
Blue on both sides: Maple Stir-up
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by maplestirup on Oct 13, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The Leafs are caught in some kind of weird limbo in the trade market at the moment. They know what they have on defense, but most of those guys are immovable. That’s not the case. Outside of Kessel, I’m not sure anyone knows exactly what talent we have in the top 6. Burke won’t make a move until November or December, when he has a better idea of who can do what.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
It is definitely a weird limbo kinda thing. I really can’t envision a trade involving anyone from the blueline, but that’s exactly where they need to get rid of someone.
Blue on both sides: Maple Stir-up
And I'm on Tweetbook
by maplestirup on Oct 13, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t think it will be a top-6 guy Burke will trade for. rather, I think it’ll be another Colby Armstrong type – a two-way, 15-goal-25 assist guy, to get a good shutdown 3rd line together that can score as well. I dont’ know who fits the bill in potential trading partners, but that’s what I’d look for in a move. A Rob Niedermayer type.
As good as Tim Brent is playing right now, he’s still an unproven quantity. If Brent keeps defending as well as he can and popping off a point every other game, then he’ll probably stay. Or dangled as part of the bait for a trade deal, sort of how Ian White’s good offensive performance was what sold Sutter on dealing Phaneuf.
Brett Lebda is an anagram for BATTLE BRED. Anger is more useful than despair.
by Peter de Chatham on Oct 13, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a fucking chance. I don’t know why the Leafs would trade within the conference anyway. We don’t need to help out the Devils. Let them lose and lose
Blue on both sides: Maple Stir-up
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by maplestirup on Oct 13, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
we’ll just sign bergeron or richards or thorton in the off season….
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Oct 13, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I am definitely pro-Richards signing.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Oct 13, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
well sir, we seem to be at an impasse.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Oct 13, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
im curious as to your reasonin as to why not… 90pt centres are difficult to come by
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Oct 13, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Has there been a sea change on this? Whenever I had an “A” as a kid, I was an “assistant captain.”
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
Yeah, through me off when I found this out a year ago.
It’s definitely alternate captain, though I think assistant would be more suitable.
I suppose their alternate captains whenever Phaneuf isn’t on the ice?
Exactly. They don’t assist the captain at all. They wear the A to show the refs that they’re the ones to talk to if the Captain is hurt, in the penalty box, the one getting yelled at, etc…. They are the alternate as the captain would get first dibs there.
Certified Grabbo Lover
yep, the term assistant captain is really just a mistake everyone has accepted as fact
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Oct 13, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
was always assistant through the 70’s and 80s growing up. the “Alternate” seems to be 90’s/00’s thing.
by Nigel Cadbury on Oct 13, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Anaheim
Terrible top six; injuries; just signed Andreas Lilja; Cam Fowler getting eaten alive; Sheldon Brookbank playing significant minutes.
FInger and Mitchell for Ryan!!!1
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Oct 13, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure that they’d have anything worth trading for to be honest. Feel like teams will give themselves at least 15-20 games before making any moves anyway.
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Terrible top six? Are you shitting me?
Ryan, Perry, Getzlaf, Koivu, Selanne, Blake/Lupul?
Their defense is absolute trash.
Certified Grabbo Lover
On Carter
It was going to happen, but Kaberle nixed the deal by not waiving his NTC. He was enough.
Certified Grabbo Lover
Bobrovsky's statlines
08/09 – 7-20-2, 2.53 GAA, .927 SV%
09/10 – 9-22-3, 2.72 GAA, .919 SV%
C’mon, Steve. Point out Bobrovsky’s a rookie, point out he’s coming from Russia and trying to adjust to the pace of the NHL, but don’t cherry-pick the least useful stat for judging a goaltender’s worth. I got that off his Wikipedia page, and two more searches tell me that Metallurg Novokuznetsk were fifth-worst in the KHL offensively in 08/09 and dead last in 09/10. No wonder the guy’s record looks so bad.
by Be26 on Oct 13, 2010 11:30 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
How bad does a team have to be to only win 7 games when their goalie posts .927/2.53???
Did they fill roster spots with the winners of competitions? Was Boris Yeltsin playing for them?
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by article1 on Oct 13, 2010 12:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
if we ignore the fact that the league as a whole is amazingly more defensive and lower scoring than the NHL… that might factor into it a bit too… did you notice how low the KHL teams score?
They also finished12th in goals against… which is BETTER than their goals for… but not exactly stellar.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me counter that with this...
a 2.53 and 2.72 GAA, and .927 and .919 SV% really aren’t that good.
He finished 13th in the KHL in SV% last season amongst goalies that played in 10 or more games. He wasn’t in the top 12 in the KHL in GAA either. If he isn’t in the top 10 in the KHL, he probably isn’t that great a goalie… sorry.
I’m not cherry picking in particular, but the W-L-T record illustrated the distinction in quality most clearly.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No.
The win-loss record illustrated his team couldn’t score for shit. That’s all I’ve got to say on the matter.
No
the goals for numbers indicates they couldn’t score for shit… the W-L-T record is a combination of a number of things.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 14, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Just no.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Oct 13, 2010 11:34 AM EDT reply actions
Quick question, if the leafs were to trade Finger, would they have to recall him first?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
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no, see the Shane O’Brien trade for an example.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Oct 13, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
As far as I know, O’Brien was never demoted to AHL so never needed to pass through recall waivers.
Finger doesn’t need to pass through recall waivers to be traded, but he would have to be recalled to play in the NHL again.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Oct 13, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
So Finger created an opening…that was terrible.
by laser358 on Oct 13, 2010 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Where’s the option on the poll for “Let me check my magic 8Ball” because that’s what I would have to look at to get a read of what this means.
"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM
I think Brian Burke likes the depth of 8 guys on the Marlies and besides you can rotate who plays because so many AHL games are back-to-back and sometimes 3 in a row. You can play 6 and sit 2 and then rotate it every night so that they are basically playing 3/4 of a season each… Or they could just send Finger to the ECHL.
by scott tubbesing on Oct 13, 2010 12:04 PM EDT reply actions
BBBBBRRRRAAAAYYYYYDDDDDEEENNNNSSSSCCCCHHHHEEENNNN…
/tinfoil
©1979-2010 article1 All rights reserved. Terms and conditions available on request. May be freely reproduced by anyone except those answering to the description 'Thieving Mittenstringer'.
by article1 on Oct 13, 2010 12:12 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
See, this is how you write an article about trade scenarios
Blue on both sides: Maple Stir-up
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I prefer going to hfboards and ctrl-c ctrl-v’ing.
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Maple Leafs Hot Stove
by RepressedOptimism on Oct 13, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Just going to throw a name out there...
Milan Lucic
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
just what we need, another player making a mill and a half over his pay grade
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Oct 13, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
just like
Komi and Dion have, eh?
Tucker and Peca?
It won’t happen because Lucic is massively overpaid, but these player relationships tend to get fixed if the GM wants them to be fixed.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Oct 13, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I know! they fought one whole time WHAT A RIVALRY!
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Oct 13, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I know he’s overpaid…that’s why i think he could possibly be an available. I just call him the Kadri insurance policy.
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
The Bruins are not going to trade away one of the faces of their franchise in Milan Lucic.
Certified Grabbo Lover
if the leafs had an abundance of cap space, a hole in their 2nd line wing spot and the bruins were selling him off for scraps
sure
other than that, nerp
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Oct 13, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Question: Is a $4M, 40 point checking line winger a good pickup?
Answer: No. No it is not.
Certified Grabbo Lover
Especially when we have a $3m version already.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Oct 13, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Armstrong is not the equivalent of Lucic…no way.
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
Correct
He takes less stupid penalties and doesn’t get blown up by Komisarek.
Certified Grabbo Lover
If we’re strictly talking 40 point checking line winger, then yes they are. If we’re going to start breaking down their games, which I didn’t do, then obviously there are differences.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Oct 13, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That was last year
50+ this year!
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Oct 13, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Money aside you would take Armstrong over Lucic guys?
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
I think he is more a part of the face of the franchise.
Likely the nose.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Oct 13, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
All I know is that, if something does happen re: a trade, no one will see it coming until after the fact.
None of these scenarios are any more likely than the other, and it’s WAY too early in the season for any team to go into panic mode.
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Oct 13, 2010 12:51 PM EDT reply actions
I think we’re in a bit of a holding pattern until at least Rememberance Day.
Resident Capologist
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Gotta agree; I don’t think anyone is going to talk about trades until they’ve gotten at least a 8 or 9 game look at their rookies, and have to say “up or down.”
The experiment failed: Get rid of the trapezoid.
No deal
I think they just rotate guys in and out of the Marlies press box. I’ve read different places that Finger has been a good influence on Schenn (his roommate on the road) and Brennan is also a “character” guy (former captain at BC). Having both of them in the A is probably good for development of the younger guys we actually care about. Also, no need to go get anyone right away just because we have cap room. Let’s bank it and if we need some help down the road we’ll be able to afford someone with a higher salary.
by billbarilkodisappeared on Oct 13, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Burke's always
been right up against the Cap… in Anaheim and Toronto… and if there was one he’d have done the same in Vancouver.
He’s not going to let $5 mill sit on the table if he can make a move to improve the team by spending it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
you CAN’T BANK CAP SPACE… you can’t save it for a rainy day… it’s not useful to us NEXT year to have MORE cap room THIS year.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s not useful to us NEXT year to have MORE cap room THIS year.
Yes it is. Bonus overages.
Certified Grabbo Lover
Bonus Overage
can’t be moved year to year can they?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh nm
I see what you’re saying.. if we don’t exceed the cap as a result of our bonuses then we don’t have costs applied next season.
Either way , we aren’t hitting the bonuses like people worry we will… so no big deal.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless
you see Bozak, Schenn, Kadri, Gunnarsson, or Gustavsson all doing things like making the all-star team or putting up numbers in the top 10 for their position, this isn’t really something we need to worry about.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of cap numbers...
Anyone else going through Capgeek withdrawals while they upgrade the Calculator?
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
yes
"That’s why stats are so important – anecdotal evidence just doesn’t cut it when you’re talking about history." - Bower Power
by The '67 Sound on Oct 13, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand why they took this down.
Blogging on hockey at The Globe and Mail
by James Mirtle on Oct 14, 2010 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Well the Leafs had $1.4M in bonus overages this year while being under the yearly cap meaning they had more than $1.4M in bonuses paid out and the season was complete shit. Bonuses are going to get paid this year too.
Certified Grabbo Lover
signing bonuses
not play bonuses…. if you look at the bonus achievement chart for the guys under contract already, the odds of them hitting the targets are pretty remote.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
None of the players on the Leafs with bonuses have signing bonuses according to capgeek. They are all performance based; most likely games played.
Certified Grabbo Lover
Max total bonuses: $5.12-million
This is the total for Schenn, Bozak and Gunnarsson in terms of bonuses. All three are on entry-level contracts and can in theory earn this full amount. However, there are different types of bonuses (Schedule A and Schedule B) and it’s very unlikely any of these three will win a major league award and earn any Schedule B bonuses. Schedule A bonuses max out at $850,000 per player, so even if Schenn and Bozak earn that amount and Gunnarsson earns his full bonuses, the Leafs will have to spend only roughly $1.87-million extra than the "projected salaries" figure. Consider this the highest likely bonus payout for Toronto this season.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/making-sense-of-the-leafs-cap-situation/article1754464/
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Oct 13, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
we went over last year, and most of our rookies didn’t even play a full season. If we’re up against the cap and have ANY bonus overages, we are taking money away from next season, when we should be able to compete.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
We went over
by $1.4 million, but the max bonus number was $8.095 million, and we had only $534,864 in cap space.
That means out of $8.095 million in bonus money, we paid out roughly $1.935 million in bonus money. That’s 24% of the total possible.
Even at $1.87 million quoted in Mirtle’s article, that means the Leafs will have to spend an additional $2,863,306 in salary to hit the bonus overage again.
Langenbrunner is making $2.8 million this year and he’s UFA following the end of the contract year.
Bonus Overage isn’t a huge problem here.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Not just talking about us, especially since we’re such a young team. But for the Devils, the Flyers, and the rest of the league in general, any rookies that underperform might be replaced by a one-year placeholder. No one springs to mind, but I’m just not expecting a trade until at least 10 games in.
The experiment failed: Get rid of the trapezoid.
I really don’t think any of those big name centreman are very plausible, and having said that, does a trade for one of them really accommodate the plan for this team right now? If Burke is true to his word and he’s only gonna go with two, skilled offensive centreman at once (with the 3rd and 4th guys being defensive, grinders/shutdown guys) how is he going to make room for Kadri in the near future? Even if Grabbo is part of a package for one of those big names (which I’d be fine with), what happens to Bozak two years from now when Carter is still here and Kadri is ready? I can’t see Burke allotting him to a third line role. Decisions!
Wing?
It’s an option.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
Carter is a free agent at the end of the year, so if he needs to he can let him walk.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
yes that's who I meant.
Although you could also move the likes of Carter to the wing if you felt like it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
P.S.
These are the problems good teams have… look at Philly’s top 9 forwards… they’re all pretty good.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Bozak looks to be a 60+ point center. That makes him 1st line quality in the NHL.
Certified Grabbo Lover
On a crap team
sure…
we probably want an 85+ point centre for our top line long term though.
Id’ rather have a 60+ point 2nd line centre.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh geez, here we go again with the 85+ point center argument
There were only 7 centers last season who scored more than 80 points in the entire league. And there were only 25 centers last season who scored more than 60 points. Your expectations for what the Leafs 1st and 2nd line centers should be are completely ludicrous.
Certified Grabbo Lover
if the leafs top line can combine for 190-200-points’ish, I wont complain at all, i dont care how they are distributed
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Oct 13, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
list off who those centers were and look at the teams they played for… most of them came from elite franchises… I want the Leafs to be an elite franchise eventually, which means finding our way to 85+ point centre + 60+ point centre on the top 2 lines.. it’s not ludicrous.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Teams with 2 centers above 60 points
Vancouver – Sedin, Kesler
Pittsburgh – Malkin, Crosby
Buffalo – Roy, Connolly
Philadelphia – Carter, Richards
That’s it.
Certified Grabbo Lover
I wouldn’t mind being three of those four teams, admittedly.
Oh, four! I mean five! I mean fire! Now available in lite version!
Um
Tampa?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
how do you forget
Stamkos and Lecavalier?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Forgot Tampa. Yeah them too. So to get to that point we need to either
a) tank and draft centers in landmark drafts in the Top 3 for at least 2 years
or
b) tank and draft wingers in landmark drafts in the Top 5 for at least 2 years and put a center with them.
Certified Grabbo Lover
by SkinnyFish on Oct 13, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just to be clear
11 Centers were on an 80pt pace.
Henrik Sedin
Sidney Crosby
Nicklas Backstrom
Steven Stamkos
Evgeni Malkin
Brad Richards
Joe Thornton
Ryan Getzlaf
Eric Staal
Anze Kopitar
Paul Stastny
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
Forget pace. Everybody’s on a pace. If you get hurt and don’t play 82 games, tough shit.
Certified Grabbo Lover
Well
I’m referring to the caliber and capability specifically… if they are going to compete as a team, in an ideal season, you expect injuries to be not such a huge problem…
this just illustrates the need for a higher overall level of depth.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
so….Getzlaf and Eric Staal shouldn’t count as a better player than Tyler Bozak?
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
And I said that where? I’m saying last year they weren’t 80 point centers. That’s a fact.
Certified Grabbo Lover
I thought we were talking about having a poor definition of what 1st and 2nd line centers are?
Certified Grabbo Lover
Ahh, I think a first line C on a contending team should be on a 70pt pace at least.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
And that’s what the numbers say. 15 Cs over 70 points last year with some more on pace. The original argument was over Steve’s 85 point 1st liner and 60 point 2nd liner comment which is preposterous.
Certified Grabbo Lover
Using words like
preposterous and ludicrous doesn’t do much to actually disprove my argument.
If you could illustrate why those shouldn’t be DESIRABLE things to have, which is all I said, then I’d be fine with it… hell you could even explain why it’s unrealistic when a 3rd of the NHL actually has that situation at their disposal… 1 in every 3 teams is not a horribly unrealistic number for the Leafs to be a part of.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
do you WANT me to punch you in the throat?
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Oct 13, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
you keep talking BOZAK!!!1 down buddy, and you’ll get yours.
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Oct 13, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the real response is that Bozak is still developing and will be a 90pt player one day.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
by ohshrit on Oct 13, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The center leading in points on this year’s cup winner had 68 points. The runner up’s point-leading center had 62.
The experiment failed: Get rid of the trapezoid.
68 pts
in 76 games… and 62 points for Richards, but then you’re forgetting the likes of Briere, Leino… and Carter only played 74 games. Richards had 80 and 75 points in the previous two seasons, so he’s obviously capable of putting up higher numbers, and the Flyers finished in 8th, squeaking in on the last day… don’t mix STANLEY cup play with regular season… the two are distinct.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t mix STANLEY cup play with regular season? Isn’t that what you’re doing by demanding that a center be able to produce 80+ regular season points?
The experiment failed: Get rid of the trapezoid.
How?
I’m saying the Leafs should have a center CAPABLE of attaining 85+ points, and a center CAPABLE of 60+ points. I’m certainly not ready to label Bozak an 85+ point center, nor would I label Grabovski as one… which means we should FIND one.
And I refuse to accept that as ludicrous or preposterous.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
To wit
Vancouver: H. Sedin 112 pts, Kesler 75 pts
Washington: Backstrom 101 pts, Laich 59 pts
Tampa: Stamkos 95 pts, Lecavalier 70 pts
Pittsburgh: Crosby 109 pts, Malkin 77 pts
San Jose: Thornton 89 pts, Pavelski 51 pts (in 67 games)
Dallas: Richards 91 pts, Ribiero 53 pts (in 66 games)
Colorado: Stastny 79 pts, Duchene 55 pts (as a rookie)
That’s just a superficial look at it, but I really don’t think it’s that unreasonable to think the Leafs might want that break down… even if you change it to 80 and 55… my general thrust stands.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa. Carter walks? Not in a million years.
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
he doesn’t get the pay day he wants, you bet your ass he walks
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Oct 13, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh
so we have the problem of keeping Carter, Bozak, or Kadri… boo hoo… that’s my point… if Burke is THAT attached to his centres, he could let him walk… he won’t in a million years if he gets him… but it’s always an option.
Worrying over this is silly.
You don’t refuse to take on a player because it makes it harder to decide who to keep down the line.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough logic. The whole idea of shifting a player over to wing sort of alluded me there. Dar!
by Alex Grantham on Oct 13, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thought...
Anyone remember this summer when Burke skipped that charity luncheon in Thunder Bay because he was supposedly meeting with a potential player. Was that ever confirmed as legit?
I will eat a bowl of cherries and some ghost meat in his honor.
If the Marlies were so stacked on defense they would have won a game.
by scott tubbesing on Oct 13, 2010 1:54 PM EDT reply actions
They’ve been pretty close so far I think. Played a good team in Rochester and then a tight-scoring one with Abbotsford. There are a lot of new faces on the Marlies this year, and who knows how their training camp works what with players dropping in as they get cut from the Leafs. Once they find their legs as a team they will be very good I think.
Also Kadri will start scoring once he finds teammates he’s comfortable with.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Oct 13, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I watched the first game and didn’t see much impressive from the defense.
Offense either, but that’s sorta besides the point.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Oct 13, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
The D as a whole looked better against Abbotsford. They didn’t allow many great scoring chances except for 5 on 3s.
I can’t remember much about the first goal but I think it was a scrum in front.
Second goal was a shorty off a 2 on 1 off a Kadri turnover.
Gysbers got caught sleeping on the 3rd. Sick behind the back pass from behind the net, though.
Resident Capologist
Follow me on Twitter @clrkaitken. Or don't. Whatever.
Aside from the fact
that the leading scorers on the team are all defenders, what indicates to you that the problem is a defensive one?
I Mean… let’s see… could it be OFFENSIVE problems? Goaltending? Reimer looked soft against Rochester, and Rynnas wasn’t much better against Abbotsford.
I wouldn’t blame the D on the whole… and I certainly wouldn’t proclaim them shit after 2 games.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh, if we trade away one of our surplus top D players then we’d just have to bring Finger back up again to fill the hole, and if we’re just trading AHL players then we’re not likely to get a fantastic return… And if we’re just going to take a salary dump in order to use our salary cap space to generate useful assets, then we still don’t really have enough cap space to take more than 2 or 3 million without getting right back into the trouble we were in before we demoted him.
Basically there’s no reason to do a particularly meaningful trade now that we didn’t already have 2 weeks ago. There’s maybe one extra degree of freedom in our financial maneuvering, so nothing will happen unless there was a pretty cool trade that was already being considered that just wasn’t QUITE worth the cap tradeoff, that now squeaks over the line.
trade speculation is always exhausting, and nobody ever gets it right. Most important thing – and its a change from past years – we have a stocked shelf of a very sought-after commodity: defencemen. Whether he does it now, in a month or at the trade deadline, you can bet that Burke’s going to be dangling our “too many D-men” for opportunities. I gots the faith.
. signature goes here .
Disagree on being able to accurately predict trades
I totally predicted the Phaneuf trade right down to the addition of Keith Aulie.
/extremesarcasm
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Oct 13, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I find the following strange:
trade speculation is always exhausting
If you think that, why bother reading or commenting on the posting?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Oct 13, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Revisiting 1st and 2nd line centres
Number of NHL Centres who have played 40+ games and topped 1.0 ppg in the past 3 years:
15. Of that group, Malkin + Crosby, Thornton + Marleau, and Carter + Richards have all played on the same team. That means 12 teams have at least 1 center at this level of play, and 16 teams make the NHL playoffs yearly… The only player in the group that didn’t make the playoffs was Steven Stamkos.
Number of NHL Centres to play 40+ games and top 0.75 ppg (61.5 point season pace):
45. This includes the 15 players mentioned in the previous group, leaving us with 30 players that fall in the 60-80 point pace category. That averages 1 player per team.
So in review, there are enough 60+ point centres that every team could logically have ONE, and there are enough 80+ point centres that nearly every playoff team has at least one player of that ability level.
The idea that it is “ludicrous” or “preposterous” for the Leafs to desire and seek out one player at each level is frankly beyond the pale. If you somehow magically think that the Leafs are going to be a successful playoff team WITHOUT players of this caliber, you are dreaming in technicolour.
I know the Leafs don’t have players of that skill level right now, but I’m suggesting they find them within the next few years to maximize their window of opportunity with the young developing group they have growing on the team right now.
Perhaps Tyler Bozak, Mikhail Grabovski, or Nazem Kadri develop into the 80+ or 85+ point center I think we need, but they will need one eventually.
Arguing that Chicago getting by without one proves it’s not necessary to seek one out ignores the fact that Patrick Kane is a puck distributing winger who scored 88 points last year with 58 assists. While Jonathan Toews didn’t produce 85+ points, his 68 point season in 76 games while the team lacked Marion Hossa’s participation for 25 games, and Brian Campbell’s for another 14, leads me to the idea that Toews may surpass 80 points this year with Hossa’s continued presence, and contributions on the point from Campbell whenever he gets over his knee injury.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

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