Crestfalling
by pevans on Dec 3, 2010 2:25 PM EST
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PrintEditor's Note: pevans hits a lot of the right notes in this FanPost. There are bright spots on this team. There is no doubt of that. But as a whole this team is not headed in the right direction right now.
5-0 to the worst team in the NHL. Shut out, no less, for the sixth time in 16 games, we're now well on our way to shattering the all-time NHL record for a season in that ignominious category. And with apologies to Islanders and Panthers fans, we were blown out by the only other team in the league that's being described as a mismanaged laughingstock -- except they're the ones stockpiling a large pool of young talent, with another injection soon to come.
I thought we'd hit bottom last year. But I don't think we've hit it, even now.
As a team, going into this season, I sort of thought they would be a mediocre team this year. My call going in was that if everything came up best case scenario, they'd be a low seed playoff team. The formula for that happening was based on the D improving (it has, though they're even more overpaid) the goaltending improving (it has, but are also overpaid) and we'd find ways to score garbage goals to complement what few skilled topline scorers we have (we're not.)
Above all, I thought they'd lose to good teams, but if they could beat enough of the mediocre-to-bad ones, they might squeak into the playoffs. Coming up on 1/3 of the season, that's not happening. We're actually on pace for less points than last season, the worst one I have ever experienced in my 20 years as a fan. That's astounding.
Are the Leafs getting an unbelievable amount of bad puck luck? Absolutely. Search the archives for all the great posts around here about how they have unsustainably bad fortune in terms of shooting percentage, save percentages, and stuff like Corsi. Any way you slice it. But add it all up and they're still finding ways to lose.
We're nearly 200 games into the Ron Wilson era -- i don't think he's the problem, but he's certainly not part of the solution. I dont give a crap that he's prickly with media or comes off as a dick. I want to win hockey games. If helped do that, he could personally call me just to berate me every day. We've been trying to win for almost 200 games with him in charge, and we've overhauled the roster from top to bottom in that time. Once Tomas Kaberle's gone (for nothing) this summer, Nikolai Kulemin will be the longest serving leaf, if you can believe that. Yes , they're young, but at what point is it not just the players? I hate the reactionary coach-firing as much as the next guy, but.... 200 games? Come on.
I'll give you some positives. I thought Luke Schenn was overrated during his OK rookie campaign, downright bad last year, but I'm pleased to say he's rounding into form. More offense than I thought was capable. Definitely a bright spot. For me, his floor is Chris Phillips, maybe Adam Foote. Scott Stevens is a longshot.
Nazem Kadri looks like the style of player we desperately need, even though it's in a tiny sample size and he's completely not NHL ready at this point. Jonas Gustavsson has been very good in net, and Jean-Sebastien Giguere has been average. The Leafs are finally getting the NHL average goaltending we haven't had since the lockout. If we can shave $4M off of our goaltending expenses to overcome egregious overpays elsewhere, so much the better.
Kulemin? Power forward in the making, and absolutely my favourite Leafs forward already. A protoype of the "makes his teammates better" mould. Lock the kid up long term.
I'm unfairly tough on Mikhail Grabovski for some reason, but I'll admit he's getting it done and is improving as he goes on as a Leaf. I think Grabovski can be a legit 2nd line centre on a Cup winning team. Certainly not overpaid for what he brings, at what he earns. There are very few Leafs I can say that about.
Phil Kessel scores goals. Of one particular type, in streaky bunches. Better than probably 90% of the league, though still really one dimensional. But he's only 23, so we'll see what he turns into. Right now, he's a poor man's Luc Robitaille or Brett Hull, BEFORE they finally "got it" in their early 30s and won cups as savvy vets on contending teams.
Those guys became complete players after moving away from the teams where they cut their teeth, I'll point out. My new worst fear is he bolts as a UFA at 26 when he's tired of all the shit in Toronto, but I acknowledge it's unfair to be reading tea leaves for something so far in the future.
Beyond Kessel the player, let's talk Kessel -- the turning point. (this would be your cue to stop reading if you don't like where this is headed)
I am fully aware that draft picks are lottery tickets. Saying the Leafs traded Seguin, Knight and, let's say, Sean Couturier for Phil Kessel is as intellectually dishonest as saying they once traded Tom Kurvers for Scott Niedermeyer.
But what Brian Burke did to acquire him -- I didn't like it then, and it looks worse by the day. I wasn't entirely sold on that trade and his salary when I mentally told myself it was a 21 year old perennial 30 goal man for two picks at 15th overall. $5.4 million is also a ton of money in a cap system. Lost in all the crazy vitriol of that trade is why the hell Boston was so willing to part with him. Yes, I know goal scorers are hard to come by. So why wasn't Boston frantically dumping role players to make cap room and keep this stud-in-the-making happy? Chiarelli made the organizational choice that he was better off trading him for the picks. Who's made more good decisions in the last two years, Brian Burke or Peter Chiarelli?
People give Burke a pass by saying "there's no way he thought he was trading two lottery picks" but isn't it his job to know that? To evaluate talent? and players? and teams? Any way you slice it, it was a gross miscalculation.
I don't buy the theory that's being bandied about that if we hadn't made that trade, we'd all be crucifying Burke for not going out and trading for a young sniper. We'd be sitting here with Seguin, Schenn, Kadri, maybe a few more picks from dumping some of our vets, and licking our lips over that lottery pick to come.
I'd be fine with that state of affairs, and I bet a large number of people round here would be too. No ways the Leafs would have been booed out of the ACC last night, for example.
This entire crapshow needs to be viewed through the prism of the Kessel trade. I don't see why it's a dick move to acknowledge that. Burke went all in and lost. Except he hasn't taken his losses and left the table. He's taking off his Rolex, he's about to throw it onto the table, and asking his buddy to front him the re-buy.
We were bad last year, we're somehow even worse this year, and there's just not enough light at the end of that tunnel to convince me that Burke is on the right path.
I forget who said it around here in recent days, but I was fine with the early 2000s Leafs trades that mortgaged the future a bit because we were close. Dammit, we were. Getting guys like Nolan and Leetch in exchange for picks and prospects, some of which panned out and some of which haven't, was a smart, sensible risk at the time.
This isn't. Burke wanted to hurry up the process and try to skip 2-3 years of team development because a player of Kessel's calibre (which i admit is rare) suddenly became available.
We have made a mistake. And I worry that the guy with the power to fix it won't acknowledge he's made a mistake, and will keep making bandaid fixes to retroactively prove he's right.
Anyway, I've said my piece. I'm trying to ghettoize my negativity surrounding this team into this thread, out of the way, so as not to bother anyone.
I'm going to try really hard to keep it out of other threads. I'll limit my bitching elsewhere to more day to day stuff like blown coverages on plays, mailed-in backchecking, and boneheaded penalties. Sound fair?
I'll be watching. Thanks for the catharsis.
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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I’m just tired of following this team. It shouldn’t have to be this way. 6, 7, 8 years without the playoffs in the big smoke. Just pathetic.
So quit....
Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out, and don’t come crawling back when we are finally good again.
This is the time where real Leafs fans are separated from the bandwagoners, so you have to ask yourself, are you a real Leafs fan? Or just a bandwagoner in disguise?
by Huey2k2 on Dec 3, 2010 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
I hate this argument. To me, my definition of being a fan, is that you are personally emotionally invested in the team winning. So me, or anyone else, saying “this team brings me bad, I need to take a break” is fair, because it’s a coping mechanism. Sometimes the things we love hurt us.
I’d draw the line at turning into one of those “1967” cahnting people, or getting a jersey of your team that says “Leafs suck”, or actively cheering for some other team that happens to be winning at the moment.
I’m not doing that, and I didn’t get the reading that the above commenter was either.
This team is exhausting. The strategy makes my stomach turn. I feel helpless. It makes me cranky during my daily life. It’s an added source of stress for something that at the end of the day is not logically worth it — at the moment anyway.
I am limiting my exposure to this team. Of course, I’m still checking boxscores and lurking around here. Because I care. That’s what being a fan is. When i do watch, I’m jumping out of my chair and fist-pumping around my apartment. I don’t accept that saying “this team is on the wrong path” is indicative of treason.
To a certain extent, I am changing the channel as much as I can. I have very little nice to say, so as the old parable goes, I’m trying to say nothing.
This is what helps me cope — a cold sober look at the facts. I try to limit it because I don’t mean to worsen the fan experience of any other Leaf fans around here, 99% of which I have a great deal of respect for.
It’s the same sort of “i support the president” bullshit that somehow makes rational dissent look unpatriotic.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
by pevans on Dec 3, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Agree
Great breakdown of it. If people are saying they need a break then they need a break. Lord knows there are times I want to shutter things.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Dec 3, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
If people need a break that is fine… you are a band wagon-er as soon as you start cheering for a different team – not when you take a break from your current one.
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Dec 3, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
This. The team hasn’t been good for 4-5 years now and anyone who decides to take a break should not be labelled a band-wagoner.
Toronto Maple Leafs: Can't even beat Edmonton
I’m going down with the ship.
See you in hell everybody! :D
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Being a fan of any franchise
is completely irrational.
Withdrawing support in times of abject failure to some extent defines you as a non-fan… as you are not a fanatical supporter.
Also – comparing political support to sporting support is a bit absurd. The Leafs don’t control the nationa/provincial/municipal budget… they control themselves.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
isn’t it possible for a person to be irrationally rational, or rationally irrational?
Fire Ron Wilson!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Dec 3, 2010 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
I understood two symbols from that equation.
One of them was the equals sign
Hey, if you’re gonna call us birds you might as well call us chickens.
the intersection of rational & irrational sets is empty (i.e. null, no overlap)
don’t worry, this isn’t a high school thing ;)
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
mind = blown
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I’m sorry, but at what point did anyone say that you had to support a sports team limitlessly? I know plenty of people who have become disenfranchised with a sports team due to disagreement with the direction the team is heading. If I don’t like who the Leafs have in the front office, behind the bench, or on the ice, I am in no way required by my passion for that team to follow them and disregard my personal feelings.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
Nope
but then are you fanatical?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Hey if you want to be the overlord deciding who’s a real fan and who isn’t, then go ahead.
We are all beholden to no one but ourselves. If I stick with a team through thick or thin, then I will relish the eventual victory all the more.
If I give up on the team and come back later when they do win, sure I get to dance in the streets just like everyone else. But I know deep down in my soul that I did give up on them and that will make it hollow. Even if just a little bit.
That’s what matters to me, not what another lunatic in the asylum says.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
that is every worst kind of Jersey Foul
My optimism can beat up your optimism.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 7, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
Shit Sucks
What can you do? Don’t let it bring you down.
I also don’t think anyone involved with the Leafs thinks that this team should be good, and is trying to bandaid it better because of some ego trip.
They look at the roster, and they see Gustavsson, Kessel, Schenn, Kadri, Kulemin, Phaneuf, Versteeg, Grabbo, Gunnarsson, and Aulie and think that its a pretty good start.
The rest are just a bunch of job vacancies that are yet to be filled.
No one said this team was Burke’s completed masterpiece. It’s just what he’s managed to pull out of the hatchet job he did on JFJ’s travesty.
Still a few more years of development and improvement to come. Don’t worry that this season is going to the dogs because standings don’t matter right now.
Look at the bright side people...
We can’t be as bad next year cause we have our first rounder and god hates us so we are headed for 9th place in the east. woo hoo (cry)
see, now that's actually funny
thanks!
that is completely what’s going to happen.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
I know, isn`t that fucked! Hell, had we not made the Kessel trade you know we would have finished with the 10th pick last year.
I have no doubt in my mind, that this would have happened
Toronto Maple Leafs: Can't even beat Edmonton
Holy shit
would you guys let it go already?
We made the Kessel trade… it’s done… we’re going to hear about it forever…
and guess what, if we’d never made the trade the team would still suck shit and not be making the cup anytime in the near future. Why is this such a concern for people.
Would having the 10th pick in the draft have made a difference? Would having Tyler Seguin make a difference? Does having a 1st or 2nd overall pick in next year’s draft matter? Does anyone KNOW who the top prospect is this year? Have you heard all that hype? I haven’t heard any major hype yet.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
True but our cupboards are pretty lacking in quality scoring talent. All our real scoring prospects are up right now.
Yep
and that’s a problem.. no veteran leadership… they’re floundering without it on the ice… we need it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
or we send it to Minsk
because yanno Belarussians are useless… what’s that Grabovski? Oh right… you could let the kid live with you? No… that would be a bad idea.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
yeah i hoped Stefanovitch could be something, but if he’s not willing to put in a professional effort, why keep him in a professional league?
Maybe he’ll figure it out by next year…?
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
Two things
1. he’s going to a professional league… so the idea of him not being a pro is a bit strange.
2. The idea that he isn’t willing to provide a pro-effort is a little misleading. I’m fairly certain numerous people have griped about the lack of professional efforts from the guys currently playing with the Leafs… if this is a reason to get rid of players who are young and developing, maybe we should toss the entire franchise?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
2: His coaches across several levels have said he doesn’t apply the things he’s told to his game performances.
1: In terms of training, practice, nutrition, and all the other demands that the AHL/NHL places on its players, I don’t think the KHL is equivalent, even though they do pay their players to play hockey.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
His coaches across several levels?
Who? Patrick Roy and Dallas Eakins? Eakins coached him for what? 3 weeks?
That’s not a lot of coaches.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
And if you think the KHL
does a crappy job of developing pro hockey players, then why the hell do we keep poaching players from that league? and how does Russia win the World Championships?
There’s no need to denigrate other pro leagues.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
i’m not denigrating their league.
they do a fantastic job of skill training, which is why they can skate circles and stickhandle around 99% of their North American peers.
But it often seems that they need to learn the differences in the NHL game, and when they don’t like the approach that’s taken, they seem to run off where they can be coddled (Morozov, Semin, Radulov, Filatov, Stefanovich, etc etc)
Whether they come back or not speaks volumes to their dedication to improving themselves the way their coaches & bosses deem necessary.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
What did Radulov
need to learn about not being coddled? He wanted more money after producing 58 points in his 2nd year as a pro…
He could get it in Russia… couldn’t in Nashville… so he left. I Don’t think he wanted to be coddled.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
As for Morozov
He played 7 seasons in the NHL after being a first round pick. He left the NHL just as he was entering his prime, because he could make more money back home and wasn’t a huge fan of the city of Pittsburgh.
Frankly I don’t blame him on the Pittsburgh part. The team was crap, and he didn’t CARE to stay. That doesn’t mean he wanted to be coddled.
His 7 years in the NHL and 1st round draft pick status indicate nobody questioned his work ethic. He’s also a national hero in Russia as far as Hockey goes and is the best player in the KHL as far as most Russian management types would think. He’s a poor choice for this argument.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Morozov signed for $4m in 05-06 before even seeing what he could get as a UFA in the NHL.
I’m guessing he would have got significantly more.
Despite seasons with Kovalev & Lemieux, the guy did not want to play in the NHL.
Again, with this mindset evident in some of the most skilled Russian players, how is it a shock that Stefanovich might be a headcase?
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
He wanted more ice time, all his production was with about 16 or 17 minutes per game.
Trotz wasn’t going to hand that to him because he was the most talented player they had.
He pouted and ran away to Russia before they could even really talk contract.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
Again
how is this coddling? He was (and probably still would be) their most talented player… I bet they’d be more competitive with the likes of Detroit if they’d kept him and let him develop.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
He doesnt have to take criticism, he doesn’t get benched, he doesn’t have to commit to defensive aspects of the game.
He was also one of the biggest whiners at the Olympics when Ovechkin & the other NHLers had the majority of the attempts in the shootout.
The guy simply wants to be in the place where he can do whatever he wants and not answer to anyone.
Maybe “coddled” was the wrong word choice, but the guy definitely needs an attitude adjustment.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
last i checked, semin still played in usa
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
He quit in 2004 after refusing to play for the AHL team. He was suspended by the team, and skipped the 05-06 season too.
He came back to Washington because Ovechkin asked him to.
My optimism can beat up your optimism.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 4, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
while i don’t argee with breaking contracts, playing in russia probably helped him to develope more than what playing in ahl would’ve
and where this he only came back because ovie asked thing came from?
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
and filatov went to russia because columbus made a deal with the club. he didn’t run off.
and morozov left nhl for the lockout season
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
sorry, the Ovechkin thing was a story I had heard a lot of times. Turns out thats wrong. His 2 years in Lada were because he had been drafted into military service and didn’t have the same exemption that Ovechkin, Zherdev, etc had. If he had left after the lockout he would have been charged with desertion.
Filatov was disappointed with his ice time under Hitchcock and wanted to leave.
During training camp in September, he told The Dispatch that a demotion to Syracuse this season would make him at least consider going back to Russia, where he could make millions — more than his current NHL deal — playing for CSKA Moscow.
Said Howson, “We have agreed to his request to be assigned to CSKA and this should afford him the opportunity to continue to work and develop his game in his hometown of Moscow.”
I’m not ragging on any of these guys, it’s just a pattern with many young Russians that – because they have the KHL option – instead of listening to what their NHL coaches try and tell them, or appreciating the methods used to try and teach/discipline/reward them, they would rather just hop across the world where they can just play hockey and no one benches them for a lazy play.
My optimism can beat up your optimism.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 4, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
then again, him playing in khl was probably better for everyone than him being benched in nhl or playing in ahl.
and what comes to money, this is their job. if you can choose between playing at home – in good level league – while making good money or playing in lesser level foreign league for little money, which would you choose?
they can’t just go to khl and not try without being called out for it
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
Its not a commentary on them as people.
Its a commentary on them as hockey assets to professional NHL clubs.
This discussion originally started with Stefanovich and his wanting to go back to the KHL.
It’s disappointing when players who seem like they want to play in the NHL refuse to accept the development path of the professionals who are probably the experts on the subject.
Every kid wants to play (obviously), but it is the folly of youth that screws them up. Every kid thinks they can be a superstar if they are given a chance, but their sample size is only one.
The coaches, trainers, GMs, and all of the other professionals in the league have dealt with hundreds of players.
Who will have the better expert opinion?
And again, it seems to be more of an issue with Russian players.
Czechs, Slovaks, Swedes, Finns – they all have their own leagues that they can escape to if they get fed up, but it’s rare that you hear of it happening.
These other Europeans don’t seem to take offence to being shuttled back and forth between the AHL and NHL while they learn the proper skills.
So when I say “I think Stefanovich needs an attitude adjustment before he can make the NHL”, it encompasses all of these things.
- Will he accept that maybe he doesn’t already know everything about the NHL?
- Will he commit himself to learning from the experts in the NHL?
- Will he take the criticism from his coaches, and take the benchings as a lesson?
So far the answer is “no”, because he would rather go play in the KHL where he won’t be taught the NHL lessons.
When he matures and is ready to develop for the Leafs, I will welcome him back.
My optimism can beat up your optimism.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 4, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
he said somewhere though that he wasn’t really told what he should do differently to make the team. obviously i can’t know if this is true or not but that’s what he has said
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
yeah I saw that, but it was in the middle of a long road trip. Not really any practice time for the coaches to show him.
And he was only on the ice for 2 games. Not exactly showing a lot of patience for whatever might come.
Not even much of a chance for the coaches to see the complete picture of his skills.
My optimism can beat up your optimism.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 4, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
and how does Russia win the World Championships?
Because Ovechkin, Semin, and Kovalchuk are done in April.
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Dec 5, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
they didn’t help much this year… neither were two of them part of the 2009 team
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Kiekko vaa ylämummoon ja bileet käyntiin
Ovechkin and Semin have a bad habit of not scoring on good goalies (Vokoun at the WC), unfortunately.
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Dec 5, 2010 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
maybe… but i wouldn’t call ward a bad goalie and i think he played in the 2008 final (semin scored 2)
i don’t think that just having couple of players caused the wins. russia is loaded with highly skilled players, 2008 was just the first time i ever saw them to play well for the team and having the kind of attitude you need for winning
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Kiekko vaa ylämummoon ja bileet käyntiin
Yeah, I was kidding (referring to Luongo Olympics + Halak playoffs + Vokoun WCs + all the other times, like recently against Pavelec).
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Dec 5, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Luongo was strikingly average at the olympics
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Dec 5, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
Not according to the MSM when they tell stories of Ovechkin’s failures.
Love,
Damien
My blog and Twitter, featuring coverage of the most unpredictable team in the NHL and where we defend Mike Green, Alex Ovechkin, and Alexander Semin until the bitter end. That is to say, when someone tries to call BS on the Corsi numbers.
If you don't know how to use Timeonice, read this.
"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
by red army line on Dec 6, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but for a 21 year old, the coaches he’s had since 17 represent a pretty accurate slice of his short adult life
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Again
it’s one guy… Roy… the coaches of the Belarusian national team had no problem adding him to the World Championship roster… that doesn’t imply he’s horribly overmatched to me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Also
how many players from the Quebec Remparts under Roy have made the NHL?
All I can think of is Radulov… he isn’t exactly churning out top end talent with his highly developed coaching skills… so maybe he isn’t the best judge?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Roy’s record has been:
52 wins (+ Memorial Cup)
37 wins
38 wins
49 wins (Division title)
41 wins (Division title)
and is currently off to a 15-1-1 start.
I think he’s qualified to speak about coaching.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
P Roy for interim coach of the leafs!
If only for the entertainment factor
by goaltender interference on Dec 3, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
oh my goodness, think of the poor cars on Sherbrooke street!
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe he can coach junior age players
but he might not be a skilled evaluator of NHL caliber players… seeing as how his team has produced virtually none.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Also
Stefanovich was a huge part of the two division title teams… so using his judgement of Stefanovich to crap on the kid doesn’t make sense to me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
again: his skill can help you win.
his attitude can cause you to pull your hair out.
Roy probably misses his shot, but is glad that he doesn’t have to wonder what he’s going to get every shift.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
That last statement
could be said of 95% of young hockey players. They make mistakes… especially the offensively skilled ones.
The reality to me is, the Leafs management had no interest in developing a skilled player that wanted ice time despite his mistakes… we aren’t even particularly interested in developing Kadri appropriately as far as I can tell.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
he definitely has the talent to play in the NHL right now, but the other parts of his maturity or attitude might be holding him back.
if Kadri has been dropped to the 4th line because he’s not defensively responsible yet, but is trying to learn, how much patience do you think Stefanovich would have? He complained when his minutes got cut (without reason he felt) by Eakins.
It’s your job to do what the coaches say, when they say it. Not to dictate what you think you should be doing.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed that this is a problem
I just think if the Leafs are desperate for scoring, then tossing away a potential scorer is a bit idiotic.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Why are you so upset about loaning a player to a good hockey league, especially when that player wouldn’t even impact the Leafs for 2 or 3 years.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
I'm not upset about the loan
I’m saying it’s odd to cry poor on the part of the Leafs about a lack of offensive depth in the system if you’re shuttling off offensively skilled players.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I’m laughing and crying. I’m craughing right now.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Dec 3, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Dear Editor
I never thought this would happen to me, but here we are…
But as a whole this team is not headed in the right direction right now.
What does that mean? If the future (ie the direction the team is headed in) looks good, how is that the wrong direction right now?
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 4:59 PM EST reply actions
granted
there are positive signs, which i listed above. But it’s not even two steps forward, one step back. It’s one step forward, two steps back.
You have to hit bottom for risin, and it doesn’t seem like we’ve even done that yet. It’s hard to believe, but they seem to be actively getting worse, as a whole, somehow. The net – outnumbers the + so we are not yet “headed in the right direction” I dont think. That was my point, anyway, but perhaps I didn’t make it grammatically clear.
There are explosions of good in a morass of suck, but I’m not of the belief that the people making this team can tell the one from the other.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
i was referring to PPP’s “Editor’s note” comment.
As for the rest of your comment, what are the “net -” things that outnumber the “net +” things?
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
net – is that we don’t have enough top end elite talent in the organization and the we lack the capacity to get it in the cheapest/best way, over time…draft picks. The result is that we have to overpay for what we do have.
the net + are the glimmers i listed. Gustavsson, Schenn, Kadri, Kulemin, maybe Grabbo and sort of Kessel.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
got loads of draft picks dude
in fact, we’re only short two.
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
yep, the good ones.
which i admit are lottery tickets. But 80 years of NHL history shows that the best, most consistently dependable way of acquiring elite talent is to draft it. And the likeliest way to get that is with high picks.
Just stop trading draft picks. I said it during Fletcher, and I’m still saying it now. Just try it. For once!
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
We’re short the most important two. After the first round, it becomes even more of a crap shoot than it already is in the first.
I know draft picks are a lottery, but the odds of success are not the same as a lottery ticket you buy at the store – i.e. every ticket has the same odds of winning. The higher the pick you hold, the better the odds you will find a good player, obviously. I don’t think anybody would disagree with me on that point.
It’s often said that teams that have consistently drafted high have not necessarily found success – that is true. However it is disingenuous to compare Atlanta with Toronto, for instance, because there are so many other variables. Be it ownership, scouting, management, asset management…there is honestly so much more stability in Toronto than elsewhere.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
there is honestly so much more stability in Toronto than elsewhere.
that’s patently untrue. Buffalo, from a management/coaching standpoint is far more stable. Same with Nashville. Same with Detroit. Same with a whole host of other teams.
The higher the pick you hold, the better the odds you will find a good player,
no argument there. but if we’re weighting our pros and cons, there really isn’t a point in claiming the “net -” outweighs the “net +” because then it just becomes a matter of opinion.
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
i'll rephrase
“in my opinion, this team has far more negatives than positives, such that the +/- is in the red. And getting worse. Ergo, I don’t think we’re headed in the right, positive, direction.”
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
so
two draft picks (which everyone seems to agree are a gamble) outweigh Gustavsson, Rynaas, Kadri, Kessel, Schenn, Aulie, Kulemin, Grabbo, and some exciting players in the pipeline (Ross, McKegg, D’Amigo)…?
If we scratched that list and added in two unknowns (anywhere from lottery pick to say 10th overall), is the team suddenly “on the right track”?
I don’t deny this team is at best, befuddling, and at worst ulcer inducing to watch currently, but even a horrid 20 game stretch such as this isn’t “the future” right now.
Or maybe I’m just a homer…
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I often put too much stock in the game-by-game play. Need to keep addressing this.
And having more PPP GDT Joke Nights!
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
that would be the right track...
…at least in that they’d be trying a strategy they have never employed in my decades as a fan. Drafting and developing home grown superstars.
If they blew the picks on Luca Cereda 2.0 then yes, I’d be sitting here bitching about their shiftty talent evaluation and drafting record.
But that wouldn’t irritate me as much.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
also
the good moves we’ve made with the players you mention dont negate the fact that they struck out large on much larger quarry.
Gus et al are goods. But not good enough to outweigh the net bad of the kessel trade on my own personal balance sheet.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Much larger...?
Kovalchuk?
I’m terribly thankful they struck out on him…
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
i meant kessel
in the story of the makeup of this team, Kessel is much larger, in importance, than the comparatively minor roles of those other good assets. Just based on cap space and assets given up to get him.
Yes, I was anti kovalchuk this summer, and even more so now.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Also, this is not an either/or proposition.
All those other parts, we could have gotten those even without the Kessel trade.
So the real question is, would we be happy with Gustavsson, Rynaas, Kadri, Schenn, Aulie, Kulemin, Grabbo, and some exciting players in the pipeline (Ross, McKegg, D’Amigo) and Seguin, Knight, and whatever the pick is this year, versus all of the above plus Kessel?
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
poor choice of words
Drafting and developing home grown superstars.
it’s a crap shoot, and there’s no guarantee any kid drafted in the next year will be a “superstar”
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
Right, there’s no guarantee. But what Burke has done is forced himself to guarantee that Kessel WILL be a superstar versus those three picks. That is a very risky bet in my mind.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
dude, kessel already is a superstar. he dealt three unknown junior players for a bona fide 30+ goal scorer.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe I should’ve reworded that: Burke is guaranteeing that Kessel’s performance over the balance of his career will be superior versus the careers of those three picks. Do I know whether or not they will be? No. Am I saying they will be? No. I’m saying that is what Burke must have calculated in his mind otherwise he wouldn’t have made that trade.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
you shouldn’t throw the word “guarantee” around so loosely. it tends to bite you in the ass when you can’t.
i don’t recall burke ever guaranteeing anything.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
We’re not arguing points in court. This is just my opinion.
The way I look at it, Burke has made a value judgment between Kessel and three eventual assets, and decided the net benefit to Toronto would be having Kessel over those three assets.
There is of course a chance this does not happen, so perhaps a better word would have been, Burke has made a bet that more than likely Kessel will come out ahead. That’s not an unreasonable supposition, is it?
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
i’d say it’s a pretty outrageous claim anywhere to say that you know someone guaranteed something that they didn’t even say.
whatever. i work with technical reports and regulatory bodies. i don’t write it down unless i’m prepared to defend it at a hearing.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
yes, i would agree that it’s a more reasonable assumption.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Generally speaking
the odds are in Burke’s favour with that call to be honest.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
The reason we’re so annoyed about not having the picks is that for the first time in practically ever, it looks like we do have the infrastructure to draft properly and not pick up Luca Cereda 2.0.
We have augmented the scouting, we have a brain trust with Nonis and Poulin and Allaire, and we have a GM that is seemingly not hamstrung by ownership.
Yet once again, Burke feels the need to cut corners. However this time it seems like it was 100% his decision, and not because of interference from ownership, which was the traditional gripe in the JFJ years and beyond.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
no guarantee that seguin doesn’t become cereda 2.0, or convery 2.0, or druken 2.0.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely, but if you go in thinking that way about the draft you are seriously undermining your scouting staff.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
And frankly, if we had the second overall pick last year would we be going the whole time saying hey this pick is a crapshoot and we’re just as likely to end up with Crosby as we are Luca Cereda?
No, we would’ve rented a tour bus to go to the draft.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
And you aren't?
by saying that later draft picks are any less valuable?
The Leafs have developed more late round draft picks in recent years than they have 1st rounders… so why would we argue either way?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Think about this
Schenn + Steen + Colaiacovo + Tlusty… vs. Gunnarsson + White + Stalberg + Stajan + Kulemin
Which list has more decent future NHL players on it? I’d say the latter.
I’m not saying that 3 of the top 4 won’t be (or aren’t) players, but are they significantly better than the bottom 5?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
HOME GROWN
and DRAFTING are conflated here.
When you bring in players under the age of 24, and you DEVELOP them into regular NHL talent… then they might as well be home grown.
If you’re a player’s first NHL franchise, even if you didn’t draft them, then YOU developed them.
The draft is over-rated… I’m sorry… but it is… and saying otherwise over and over again won’t make it less true.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
overrated in terms of 1st rounders always being the best players, 2nd rounders being filler, 3rd rounders and below being fringe level trash.
this is of course BS and you can find great talent everywhere. 1st rounders are just usually the most immediately identifiable
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
First round draft choices are FAR AND AWAY the most likely to have significant NHL careers.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
Yes
and in the past year Burke has increased the number of 1st round drafted players on this team by a factor of 3.
Why are we complaining?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
And
in addition to this, he exchanged ones we KNOW are in the NHL for ones that might not be… BONUS!
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
yeah
1st rounders are just usually the most immediately identifiable
doesn’t mean that every team won’t find stars in the 2nd or lower, or that every team will have 1st round busts.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:32 PM EST up reply actions
Drafting is like picking out players for dodgeball in Gym class. Of course you want to pick earlier. You get more choice. That doesn’t mean you won’t get a good kid later on, but by then you have fewer people to pick through. And nobody ever wants to be the last kid picked right?
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Patric Hornqvist & Jonathan Ericsson shake their fists at you….
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, actually. Because with those two picks you can still have all the rest, except for Kessel. The only difference is Kessel.
You have to be absolutely 100% certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that the THREE assets you are trading for ONE asset in Kessel, will always be inferior to Kessel. There are just too many variables involved for that to be a safe bet.
We ask how could Burke have known whether or not they’d be lottery picks. Well the fact that there was a real possibility should have precluded the trade from even happening.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
You have to be absolutely 100% certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that the THREE assets you are trading for ONE asset in Kessel, will always be inferior to Kessel.
So, are you 100% certain they will be superior?
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
No, but I think the risk is too great because there is NO WAY any one can be certain of this either way. Maybe this makes me too conservative to be a GM, but well, I’m not a GM. I’m a fan. And this is how I look at it. It is too much risk, too many variables.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
I’m also saying that Burke clearly made the internal calculation, and decided he was absolutely 100% certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that they would be inferior.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
i don’t think that happened. he said himself, he knew that if they were giving up taylor hall he said he’d still do the deal. last night taylor hall looked pretty superior to phillip.
point is, elite player for draft picks. it’s almost impossible to evaluate who won, and we should even try to do that for a few years.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll grant that, but that’s like talking about the Kurvers for Niedermayer trade. Can’t have it both ways.
We didn’t trade Kurvers for Niedermayer, we traded Kurvers for a draft pick. But if we’re evaluating it after the fact as you say, then clearly we lost that trade because the pick ended up as Niedermayer.
Course I also just opened up another can of worms there….
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
that’s fine. i don’t ever talk about the kurvers/niedermayer trade for that reason either!
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
i don’t see why. why can’t they be equal? it’s clearly a move that benefitted both teams – adding a pure goal scorer to a leafs team with none, gave the bruins cap relief and draft picks in return.
you can’t expect to unequivocally dominate every trade. i think fletcher 1.0 spoiled us.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not about the benefit to Boston, but a calculation on the net benefit to Toronto.
Will the assets from the 3 picks be of lesser net benefit to Toronto in total than Kessel? That’s the calculation. Burke bet one way, I would’ve bet another way.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
i still believe that the acquiring the known asset is a smarter move.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
but i thought two in the hand are worth one in the bush!
no wait.. how does that saying go? :)
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t making an absolute judgment. And you know what, you just cited three teams that have been very successful drafting talent. I’m talking about Toronto in comparison with places like Atlanta, Florida, NYI, Columbus, which are the favourites for the “drafts are a crapshoot” camp.
Just looking at NYI: they have been drafting high for the longest time and haven’t had success. But you know what, NYI is in a crap arena with a crazy owner AND a history of mismanagement going back to Millbury. If Toronto drafts the 2010 versions of prospects such as Chara, Luongo, Jokinen, etc etc and held on to them, the team is stable enough that those picks would make a strong team, no?
If Toronto had drafted Heatley and Kovalchuk, you would think there would be a better chance of either holding onto them or flipping them in a smart way, no?
But at hte end of the day it’s absolutely a matter of opinion. This is just my opinion. There’s no objective measure for stuff like this. Ask Pevans to define, mathematically, what the net – and net + figures are, and I doubt he’d be able to. Because it is opinion.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
but popular opinion is that Wilson and Burke are inept, so why on earth would we want them drafting/developing players?
can’t have it both ways. if Burke doesn’t know what he’s doing/is a poor judge of talent and Wilson is a poisonous personality/strangles kittens (all of these may or may not have been posted at some point here on the site) wouldn’t it be a safer bet to trade for a sure thing?
and, for the record, I don’t disagree with the overall article, just asking questions. if you don’t like me asking questions, don’t answer them.
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
When did I say I dislike you asking questions? I thought we were having a pretty reasonable debate. I don’t think we’re really that far apart, and at the end of the day we’re all on the same side here.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
i just like how that ended with two cliches mashed into one sentence :)
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
I’m actually quite mortified that I used two cliches in one sentence. Shudder.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
Since when
is that popular opinion? Oh right… since they moved to Toronto.
Prior to either one arriving here, the general consensus on Burke was that he was the guy to get, and on Wilson was that he was cantankerous with his players but he had won most other places and developed some good young players… so why not.
Leaf fans are amazingly fickle. You either win right away and are thus a genius, or you don’t and you’re a moron… apparently there is no in between.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Yup
The guys were hired based on their past track record and now that track record doesn’t count.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
We don't lack
top end elite prospects…. we don’t have any support system of veteran players in place to take the brunt of the blame when the kids shit the bed.
Most young developing teams surround themselves with veterans to “lead” or perhaps take the blame when the team sucks… I think not doing that was a bad plan on Burke’s part.
The kids will get better… but unless you shelter them a bit, they won’t do it quickly.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
ross, mckegg, nicholls don’t look too bad
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
Hold the phone. I’ve got my fingers crossed those guys will turn out to be something but I wouldn’t call them elite top end prospects already.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
Mckegg is #8 in OHL scoring right now, Nicholls is #10 in WHL (only 1 pt behind Nugent-Hopkins)
Not elite, granted, but looking good for now.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
Chris DiDomenico
was something we looked forward to… then he went and broke his leg, and now he’s incapable of scoring at the AHL level apparently… shows what we know.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 4, 2010 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
yeah but that’s why Burke traded him away.
HE SEES ALL THAT IS AND ALL THAT WILL BE
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 4, 2010 12:53 AM EST up reply actions
Well
perhaps I’m exaggerating when I use the term “prospect”.
I should just say talented young players who are still early in their development. Many of them are already in the NHL… i.e. Kulemin, Schenn, Kessel, Kadri, Bozak, etc.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Ross
and Blacker are both decent prospects also… Ross was invited to the World Juniors camp…
Olden also looks like a decent prospect.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I don’t like the overall future of the team right now but things could change. A new coach could have an impact, a trade could have an impact, players could develop better than expected, but as a whole I don’t know that we’re on the right track.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Dec 3, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
so, maybe you do like the future, but maybe you don’t?
never any grey for you, is there? :P
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
It’s true, PPP and Chemmy are either alter-egos, or completely different people.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
It would be hilarious if all this time PPP and Chemmy were actually the same person. Who has Skinny been living with?
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
Ready for it?
He lives alone.
SNAP! Head asplode.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
OMG all three of them are the same person! It all makes sense now!
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
kaiser soze!!!
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
hahaha yeah, I’m all grey
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Dec 3, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
i’m calling you “Earl” from now on… :)
When I grow up, I want to be just like Godd Till
by blurr1974 on Dec 3, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
bad.
Be an Optimist Prime, not a Negatron. Certified Grabbo Lover!
Адразу Ліфс Перайсці !
by Sergei Puckizin on Dec 3, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
What do we lack in right now?
What part would you have them improve in?
Scoring … we all agree it needs to improve, but we have Kessel, Kulemin, Grabovski, Kadri, Bozak, Caputi, McKegg, Olden, Ross, Nicholl, etc. They may not all develop, but some of them might… and that’s the point isn’t it?
Defense? Do we need a huge change in our D prospects because we don’t have a replacement for Kaberle? Probably… but beyond him I’d say we’re fine.
Goaltending? We have 4 solid prospects…
So beyond that…
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Dear Editor
I never thought this would happen to me, but here we are…
I had just hopped in the elevator and noticed the two beautiful ladies giggling in the opposite corner. While heading down, all of a sudden the lights flashed and the elevator came to a stop. You won’t believe what happened next…
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
This team is exhausting. The strategy makes my stomach turn. I feel helpless. It makes me cranky during my daily life. It’s an added source of stress for something that at the end of the day is not logically worth it — at the moment anyway.
Great post. I feel exactly the same way and have had to distance myself from watching a few times this year because it really was affecting my life in a negative way. (this sounds like some sort of self-help meeting) this collection of people that come here to vent, chat, share, lurk, and cheer for a common goal is where i turn. hold me…
I haven't commented much since last night
unless I did and don’t remember? (drunk)
Anyways…
Last night was an example of shite goaltending screwing the pooch.
I’m sorry if people want to blame that loss on the whole team, and the whole not scoring thing would give you an argument, but when you outshoot the opposition 33-19, and you lose 5-0, and you pull your starter, it’s hard to buy that it was anything other than a crappy performance in net.
I watched the game, I saw the goals, Gustavsson’s were both sort of hard to fathom, and Giguere let in a couple of soft ones.
I know they couldn’t produce any serious chances on offense, but seriously, 5-0? That’s not a lack of offense.
The goalies had a combined .737 SV%… that is well below NHL caliber goaltending, and let’s be honest here… the Oilers scored an even strength goal in the 1st, but they were outshot 12-4.
In the 2nd? They scored again off the rush, and it wasn’t exactly an odd man rush either…. the D let the shot go through, and a crazy backhander beat Gustavsson high? like seriously… how the fuck does that happen?
The goal at the end of the period was the backbreaker, and yeah… then the game fell apart completely… I just don’t think it’s fair to say this is the worst loss ever.
Our goaltending collapsed unlike it has for most of this season… Gustavsson could have mailed his performance in… despite his solid play, maybe HE gave up on the guys in front of him after bailing them out consistently… I wouldn’t blame him, but let’s at least be honest about it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
but they did not score…..if it was 5-3, 5-4 then you can say, those two goals were the difference in the game. Is it so much to ask that the offence picks up its goalie for once.
Toronto Maple Leafs: Can't even beat Edmonton
No
but we have a weak offensive team. We have NO secondary scoring. If Grabovski, Kulemin, Kessel, MacArthur, or Versteeg don’t pot a goal, we lose. That’s 5 guys. Our entire offensive game depends on 5 players. And even if ONE guy scores, we probably won’t win.
How is that any LESS pressure than the pressure on the goalie? especially when they’re in exactly the same stage of their development. You’re asking 5 guys to basically be a point per game players, because NOBODY else on the team can score with regularity.
Guess what, they aren’t going to score regularly. They’ll have occasionally good games here and there, they’ll produce points, but they will also get shut out a lot.
There aren’t enough Vets on this team to ensure the puck goes in the back of the net regularly… that might be part of the problem right now.
When Burke built the Ducks, he brought Selanne back to play with Getzlaf and Perry. The Leafs don’t have that Vet presence up front. We need an aging scorer, I strongly feel that might have an impact on this team. We should take a flyer on someone, anyone, that has put the puck in the net regularly, who can foster some development in these kids from the ice surface.
We need our Mark Recchi, or Rod Brind’Amour, or who the hell ever…. we need a Palffy, or a Weight… we need an aging scorer.
Who has an aging scorer for sale?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
What would it take
to get Milan Hejduk out of Colorado… anyone know?
He’s 34, and he has 8 goals and 27 points. He’d help us produce offense, and he’d help our young forwards.
He also probably wouldn’t mind playing with Kaberle… what would we have to give up?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I also would have welcomed the likes of
Ray Whitney, Andy MacDonald, Jason Arnott… yanno whoever… someone with experience and some offensive skill.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
thats the reason why they wont trade him
with Stastny/Duchene at centre, Hejduk/Stewart are a great pair.
I know Stewart is injured, but when he comes back they might still make the playoffs (if Anderson comes back healthy)
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yes this I realize
but how do the Leafs miss that necessity? How do they not acknowledge the lack of experienced scoring to lead them through the dark times?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Hell
even Edmonton has Hemsky Penner and Horcoff… we have none of that.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I am coming to the conclusion
that this is an immense mistake… keeping someone like Ponikarovsky or Stajan around might have been something worth doing.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
yeah, but their mentality was probably thus:
when starting with nothing just throw a whole bunch of darts and see what sticks.
Stajan or Hagman was probably okay to stay for a while, but the Phaneuf deal emerged and that plan got shelved. More youth in a hurry, and let’s see who makes it.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Holy shit, Hejduk is 34!?!?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Dec 3, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
He’s got maybe 2 or 3 years left before he retires.
P.S. we’re getting old.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I remember him and Drury fighting it out for Rookie of the Year – both with the Avalanche. (Hejduk won)
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Dec 3, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
My bad – finished second in fan voting.
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Dec 3, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah Hejduk
didn’t win the Calder… he did win the Maurice Richard trophy though, and he was a 1st team Rookie All-Star
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
fair enough
this is more a synopsis of the entire season, not last night.
We deserved to beat the Islanders, but didn’t. We deserved to beat the Canucks, but didn’t. I can think of a half dozen examples like that. Didn’t see much of last night’s game, but throw that in too.
The team deserves better. Fine. But we’re still a lottery team. With no first round pick.
As I said, they’re finding ways to lose, consistently.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Was our goaltending bad? Gus did let in two softies. Was the defense bad? Definitely. Maybe the worse game from our defense this year. But where was the offense? Like, at all?
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
Having goalies
give up 5 goals on 19 shots certainly doesn’t help.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
particularly when they're all
at even strength.
You might lose a 5-4 game because of bad goaltending… I’d say the 5 part was certainly something the goalies contributed to.
The skaters were responsible for the 0.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Also
People can turn away… I’d prefer it to the constant moaning about a young team being bad.
Let’s compare this Leafs team to other young teams… does that make anyone feel better? How about Pittsburgh the year after they got Crosby going (before Malkin arrived)?
Crosby was 18, he got 102 points, and the Penguins won all of 22 games and only managed 58 points. This was a team that had Sergei Gonchar, Mark Recchi, Ryan Malone, John LeClair, Ziggy Palffy, Colby Armstrong, and Ryan Whitney… not exactly a bunch of crappy players… Hell… Mario Lemieux was still on the team.
They also had Marc Andre Fleury in net… Brooks Orpik on the blue line, Maxime Talbot playing limited minutes, Rob Scuderi as a backup D man, and Michel Ouellet working his way into the lineup.
They won 22 games… they were shut out 5 times, despite finishing 19th in goals for. They also allowed a ridiculous 316 goals.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
How the hell
every game is a referendum on the Kessel trade is beyond me.
What did last night have to do with the Kessel deal… at all?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
its the lens through which many people view Burke’s abilities as GM – each game is a reflection of that.
i totally disagree with this, but that’s the mentality it seems.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
i didn't say it did
this post is a spillover of a festering season. 5-0 to the worst team in the league is just the most recent straw that broke my back.
I am here to vent. About the Kessel trade. You may join in if you like, or tell me I’m wrong. But that’s what I’m doing in this thread (Which, again, I tried to keep out of everyone’s way and not threadjack something else)
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Ok well on that topic
Kessel… we lost out on Seguin, Knight, and next year’s 1st rounder.
Does anyone sincerely expect Seguin or Knight to be better than Kessel? Do we sincerely expect next year’s 1st rounder to be better?
Based on the logic of whoever gets the best player wins the trade, I’d have to argue that Kessel is probably going to be the best player in that trade.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Having seen Seguin play
9 points in 24 games? 5 goals and 4 assists? on track for a 17 goal 31 point season as a 19 year old.
Is that really that different from Kessel’s 11 goal, 29 point season as a 19 year old (in 70 games) when you consider that the team is a lot better in Boston this time around?
I don’t think Seguin will end up the superior scorer. All around player? Maybe, but certainly not a franchise saviour which is what people would expect from a 2nd overall pick.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
So you think Seguin may be the better all-around player? Then why did you say in your previous comment that Kessel is going to be the best player? I’m confused.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
I said
maybe… not I think… this explains your confusion.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
It's possible
But at this point, I think Kessel will be the more valuable of the two.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Someone said this further up, but it’s not even just about Kessel and Seguin. It’s about Kessel and Seguin, Knight (don’t know anything about this kid really) and whomever they pick next year. Who knows, you might be right Kessel might end up being the best of the bunch. But is one great player going to trump three good ones when the Leafs need quantity as much as quality?
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
They have quantity
I haven’t noticed a lack of players on the team… they have loads of young ones, hence being the youngest team in the NHL.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 3, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
The odds that a team will get a player at 2nd overall who pans out worse than Kessel just aren’t good. Look at draft histories and see some recent number 2s. Heatley. Malkin. Spezza. Eric Staal. Lecavalier. Kane. Sedin. There’s 7 of the past 12 drafts, and I haven’t done most of the ones who are too young to tell yet. The only obvious stiff I’m seeing is Lehtonen. The fact is, the overall level of NHL scouting is getting better, not worse. There are less and less busts.
And the way this season’s going, the B’s get two cracks at it. Their odds are just exponentially better.
Also, Kessel has to be much better than “just as good” on the ice to offset the “extra” we paid in $ and assets to get him.
I’m not going to belabour it because it seems clear — you would make that trade again. I would not. I think it was a bad bet that’s gotten worse.
I can easily be convinced that Phil Kessel is an excellent hockey player, and will be a consistent Top 10 NHL goal scorere. But we paid way way way way way too much to get him. And that’s on Burke.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Patrick Kane was #1 with van Riemsdyk #2
Evander Kane was #4 with Hedman #2
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
sorry
read my wikipedia wrong. Cheerfully withdrawn.
We’re left with 6 of the last 12 drafts, and none of the recent ones, so who knows. So it’s really more like 6 of 8, from the late 90s to mid 2000’s.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Go back further
and there’s a lot of #2 stiffs… I listed a bunch of them.
You’re looking at an extremely small sample size… and overall its’ like a 50-50 risk, and you KNOW what Kessel is.
Guaranteed player vs. 50-50 chance at a player? Yeah… I’d take the guarantee… and I Don’t think that’s a bad bet.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
So I think
you’re way under-estimating the odds of getting a player who is worse than Kessel…. there’s been quite a few.
Hell some #1s turn out worse than Kessel… Daigle, Phillips, Berard, Hamrlik… they aren’t all guaranteed homeruns at all.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Lehtonen isn't a stiff - he's actually pretty good
and I won’t disagree with those 7.
You’re not adding in the following though – which is disingenuous: Hedman (possibly?), Doughty (better), Van Reimsdyk (not better), Jordan Staal (not better), Bobby Ryan (better), Redden (not better), Teverdovsky (definitely not better), Legwand (not better), Zyzuin (who the hell is he? ask the Sharks).
P.s. Lecavalier was a #1 overall… Legwand was the #2 that year.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
i tried to avoid recent ones
because who knows.
But yup, LEgwand was the #2. I’ll retract Vinny too. Still not liking the odds.
And again — TWO chances. Plus he has to be that much better to offset the picks and dollars lost in opportunity cost.
Bad trade. S’all I’m sayin’.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
No it's not 2 chances
unless you assume we’re finishing 2nd last in the NHL again, with more than 2/3rds of the season left to go.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
i am making that assumption yes
We have won 4 games since our aberrant 4-0 start.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
remember that? 4 and 0. god that felt good.
by mick mcgeough on Dec 3, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
We're still ahead of
New Jersey and the Islanders… so… don’t got assuming anything.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Also
I can guarantee that Florida will be racing to the bottom for more draft picks.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
PLus
armstrong and phaneuf will return eventually… in which case we’ll be a tad better.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
jersey will be good by the end of the year. they have enough talent. much the same way that philly sucked it up the first third of the year before canning the coach.
by mick mcgeough on Dec 3, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Doubt it
they don’t really have the talent we think they do. Parise is basically screwed for the season.
Their D is amazingly thin…
Brodeur is amazingly old…
they aren’t going to become an awesome team, and they NEED high draft picks if they want to compete in the future once Brodeur retires. Also their lack of attendance means they can tank for the year and nobody will care.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
this is year two of dissecting who might possibly be worse than the leafs and watching the fight for basement. that is a definitive shitty byproduct of the trade.
by mick mcgeough on Dec 3, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm happy to ignore this side of it
if a byproduct is people incessantly whinging about something they can’t take back, i’d GLADLY go without.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
No they can't take the trade back
but it seems to me that the whole purpose of this column was that Pevans wanted to vent his frustrations out and not sidetrack somebody else’s work. He tries to do that and he get’s picked apart . These are all his thoughts and opinions. If he wants to rehash the Kessel trade, then go fucking nuts, it’s his fan post to vent as he sees fit. If he wants to bash the job that Burke and Wilson have done, that’s his perogative. Who are any of us to tell him that he’s “Whining”
If you look up "Loyalty" in the dictionary you'll see a picture of a Leafs fan wearing a Todd Gill jeresy looking like he just got punched in the stomach
Exactly.
People on both sides – so called camp negative and camp positive – have been jumping all over each other. Overall users here just aren’t listening to each other anymore. Honestly everything I’ve seen on here tonight is just variations on the same things that have been said over and over again pretty much ever since the Kessel trade.
I expressed opinion on it here because that’s the topic of conversation. Do I think I’m right? Of course I do. But that doesn’t mean I’m not keeping an open mind and seeing what others have to say. I am fine with disagreeing with someone. But just because I disagree with someone doesn’t make me stupid or thick or a fair-weather fain or a bandwaggoner. I’m not giving up on this team any more than anybody else is. Otherwise why the hell am I on here yammering about it? I’d just go and read a book.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
I try and keep my opinions to myself around here for many reasons, most of which have alot to do with I honestly think that you guys know more than I do. I don’t have a clue about advanced stats (Which is my own choice, I don’t trust nor like them) I don’t know about what’s going on with the Marlies or even what’s going on with the rest of the NHL for the most part. That’s what I have you guys for every day
But on the other hand, just the constant negativity is such a turn off. I understand that we’re mired in a downtime and we all wish things were different, and I get that we all have different ideas of how to get from point A to point B. but do we really have to attack each other as I see so often every day?
If you look up "Loyalty" in the dictionary you'll see a picture of a Leafs fan wearing a Todd Gill jeresy looking like he just got punched in the stomach
I don’t know, to be honest. I don’t even have a real stake in this like some people seem to, but I get lumped in with the rest whenever I voice an opinion that seems to lean one way or the other.
All I care about is that the Leafs win again someday.
Does it even really matter if we convince each other about anything? Not really.
hahaha I spent way too much time on here today and it serves no real purpose other than giving me an outlet to express all these thoughts I’ve had floating in my head for a while now. Ah well I know I sure feel better getting this stuff down somewhere, even if I’m not entirely sure what I said.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
One more addendum: There’s an awful lot of rigidity around here. I’ve written out a lot of opinions on here today, but that doesn’t mean I can’t change my mind. I don’t think I’m caving in or letting someone else win or anything. There’s an awful lot of anger and shouting to submission going on lately.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I will accept
that I am vociferous in my opinions.
I don’t think I tend to just attempt to shout people into submission to my way of thinking though. Perhaps I come off as peeved incessantly? exasperated? for sure.
I do often provide data/info/ideas that support my logic. I get frustrated with the persistence of the Kessel trade = bad argument because it’s founded on one very unclear concern at this point – that the Leafs have blown an opportunity (in the FUTURE mind you) to succeed with 1st round draft picks.
To me this appears to ignore that Kessel himself was a 1st round pick, and it assumes that the picks they’ve sacrificed will automatically be successful, despite all acknowledgements to the contrary.
Playing woulda shoulda coulda just seems so fruitless to me that I’d rather focus on what they can do in the future. Taking back the trade is not one of the options, and I don’t see much value in wallowing.
I do understand this is a fanpost, and I also admit that I may be railing against things more doggedly than necessary… but putting ones opinions out there for people to read and comment on is part of the nature of the beast.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 3, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
another annoying thing people do is try to use the deal as a marker for his performance like he has to live upto to trade in any way.
Stop the kessel bashing! He didnt make Burke give the picks so don’t hold it against the guy.
He never asked to be the only offensive threat on an entire team.
He needs help – he’s a sniper not a playmaker.
Sniper’s need someone to pass them the puck.
by goaltender interference on Dec 3, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
at least we didn’t trade for Marc “i like soup” savard to fill that role. that seemed like a real possibility for awhile
by mick mcgeough on Dec 3, 2010 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Nazem Gustavsson has been very good in net…
Wow, they really got that hybrid cloning done quickly! ;D
PPP's resident pencil artist.
My Portfolio
If Ross
McKegg, Olden, Carrick, Nicholls, Ryan, Blacker, D’Amigo, Knodel, Stefanovich, Mitchell, Frattin, Mikus, and/or Gunnarsson make the Leafs all at once, will all this crap about Kessel go away?
The Leafs will have developed players they drafted into NHL talent… the argument that the whole 1st rounders are more likely to be players thing will be far less meaningful if 13 of their recent draftees are playing in the NHL… won’t it?
Somehow I doubt it… but that’s just me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
no.
none of those players are blue-chip prospects. chances are they don’t amount to much.
Fire Ron Wilson!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Dec 3, 2010 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
Chances are
…
But if they do? What then.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
at this point
all we’re dealing with are chances… and people are far too hung up on the chances.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Here's another thing
The Leafs current roster has 8 players who were 1st rounders on it.
Half their D was taken in the 1st round: Phaneuf, Komisarek, and Schenn.
1 of their goalies: Giguere
4 of their forwards: Kessel, Kadri, Sjostrom, Armstrong
Does having 8 guys on the team who were drafted in the 1st round already make any difference? They were all blue chip prospects at one point, and 4 of them are under 25… does that matter?
Probably not if we’re building for the future I guess.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I’d just like to say thank you. This point should neutralize the argument. We have what we have, let’s stop with the ‘what if?’ scenario’s that have demoralized us over the last decade, and start looking at what we do have and how to make us perform better.
Shoebacca - the PK Wookie
by danishmarshmallow on Dec 3, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
If you compare that to Boston
you see the likes of Rask, Horton, Seguin, Wheeler and not much else.
They signed Wheeler as a UFA, they traded for Rask and Horton.
Then you realize that Lucic (2nd rd), Savard (4th rd), Ryder (8th rd), Recchi (4th rd), Chara (3rd rd), Thomas (9th rd), Bergeron (2nd rd), Seidenberg (6th rd), Krejci (2nd rd), Ference (8th rd), Marchand (3rd rd)…
Maybe 1st rounders aren’t as important as we’re saying?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Oh and p.s.
this is the team that TRADED AWAY KESSEL… a 5th overall pick who had scored 36 goals for the team before he was 22… and we complain about being short sighted and mortgaging the future… etc etc.???
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
They also dealt away
Joe Thornton, and Sergei Samsonov… their other two major 1st round draft picks of the past decade.
I don’t know if this is indicating the huge value of 1st round draft picks or not?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
boston & ottawa are terrible at trading away people who should be their core
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
I think Boston
is fine with their Core right now.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Also
we’re either ignoring my point or refusing to acknowledge.
Obviously it is possible to win without a lot of 1st round picks developed from inside the system.
Boston is doing exactly that. Why is it such a huge problem for the Leafs?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Probably
because we live in a bubble, and we ignore the rest of the NHL.
Other teams win without 1st round picks of their own on the team… that isn’t a requirement for victory. All we seem to do is compare the Leafs to Stanely Cup winners, which is weird since there’s so few of those in any given year. Why not look at succesful teams in general? I think we’d be more pleased with a team that is regularly in competition for a Cup wouldn’t we?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Well
we could even look at Atlanta… 1st rounders on their team include the following 9 guys:
Ladd (Carolina)
Bergfors (New Jersey)
Antropov (Toronto)
Hainsey (Montreal)
A. Stewart (Florida)
Eager (Phoenix)
Kane (Atlanta)
Burmistrov (Atlanta)
Bagosian (Atlanta)
Little (Atlanta)
Slater (Atlanta)
Oddly they have the likes of Byfuglien (8th rd), Enstrom (8th rd) on the team also.
They drafted 5 of the 11, and the Leafs have drafted 2 of their 8… I don’t think who drafted them particularly matters. But honestly, even with the success they’re having with those 11, I’d say more of the success has to do with the fact that the average age of those guys is 26.52, and they’ve got more Veteran leadership up front in the likes of Antropov, Modin, and Peverley… the Leafs are lacking that.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
9 guys
should be 11 guys… apologies for the initial miscount, I didn’t realize Eager and Slater were 1st round picks at first.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
All of this
is making me realize that we gave up 2 first rounders to get Kessel (who was a first rounder himself) so that really is a net loss of 1 first rounder… which we regained over the past two years by adding Komisarek and Armstrong in free agency, and Giguere via the trade of Toskala and Blake, and Phaneuf via the trade of Stajan, White, and Mayers…
In the end we’ve sacrificed 2 first round players, and added 5… so aren’t we technically up 3?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Sorry
forgot Sjostrom… so make that up 6, down 2. We’re +4 on the first round front since Burke entered the fold.
Sacrificing Steen and Colaiacovo for Stempniak would also put us down 2… so much for Fletcher.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Forgot Tlusty
make it up 6 down 3… ok +3 it is… if I’m forgetting anyone … oh wait… Antropov… ok up 6 down 4…
anyone else?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Fletcher
dealt Antropov though… so I’m going to not count that against Burke… we’re +3 under him.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Yeah I kinda wrote an entire fanpost about this exact topic.
No one seemed to care despite the evidence staring them in the face. Most replies were still, “BUT PITTSBURGH!!!!”
Also dabbled in the 1st round draft odds whose point was similarly missed.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:13 PM EST up reply actions
Boston turned a bad situation (young sniper wont resign with you and wants to leave) into what’s looking pretty good (let’s get picks to try to replace him down the line)
Toronto turned a bad situation (our team sucks) into a worse one (our team sucks and we have a dearth of picks and young prospects that could possibly rectify that)
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Boston turned a bad situation (young sniper wont resign with you and wants to leavewho they couldnt sign to fair value because of other excessive contracts) into what’s looking pretty good (let’s get picks to try to replace him down the line)
fixed
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Dec 6, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
conceded. They turned something bad into something that’s looking pretty good.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
yup, no arguing that Boston made out pretty well in the deal
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Dec 6, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
re’acquiring other teams 1sts is not the same as using your own, because normally they are much more expensive to reacquire
The cost of a Leafs 1st round pick = nothing but the opportunity cost lost of whatever else you could have done with that asset
The cost of acquiring another team’s pick, or player who used to be one = players traded away to get them, picks traded away to get them, and cap space $.
I could make an entire team of former 1st round picks that would suck and lose almost every game. This is not about 1sts. This is about our 1sts.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
You can probably scratch Ryan, Knodel, Stefanovich, Mitchell, Frattin, and Mikus off the list of guys likely to play in the NHL at all.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
knodel’s mostly a goon from what I heard, dunno how Mikus has been so far with the Marlies this year but he looks like he just needs bulking up & a test season in the NHL; probably not for a little while at least.
In 3 years he’ll still only be 25, if he can add 30 lbs in that stretch and get his puck-moving ready for the NHL he’ll be a great addition down the road.
Kenny Ryan/Jerry D’Amigo still have many years to develop. Who knows what they’ll be in 3 years when they are only 22? Maybe it takes them until 24 to be 30-goal scorers in the NHL.
Thats still plenty of productivity ahead in their careers.
Guys don’t have to be written off after one or two missed training camps.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
Knodel can’t even crack an NCAA roster right now. He’s not going anywhere. Mikus has been passed over numerous times for call ups to the Leafs. Frattin went back to North Dakota for another season, and I haven’t kept up with him, but he’s a bit of a nut. Ryan hasn’t taken the step in Windsor that people expected this season. Mitchell….he’s a good AHL grinder. I think the Leafs did a big disservice to D’Amigo be not sending him to Kitchener, but he’s young and has done OK I guess with the Marlies.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
Ryan & D’Amigo are only 19 right now. Who knows/cares how big of a step they take or don’t take at this point. They are question marks – neither busts nor stars.
Mikus is 6’4" and 185 lbs. I don’t think any GM would think he’s NHL ready right now, unless you want to see him crumpled in the corner like tissue paper.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Knodel
isn’t a goon, he’s just huge. He actually skates decently based on reports of his play from Des Moines, and has some offensive upside, but he’s committed to the University of New Hampshire which is frankly a relatively older team. There is one 18 year old, and two 19 year olds on their club. Their D in particular is older, with ages of 20, 20, 21, 22, 22, and 24… Knodel would be at the young end of that group.
He had offers from Michigan State, and Colorado College, so he was relatively sought after, and he’s a big kid, so he’s likely still developing to be honest.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
i know but he was also a prospect of the Jr Flyers development system, and the Philadelphia Flyers were also verrrry big on him.
So you know he’s gotta be a bit of a lug-nut… ;D
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
According to some of what I've read
on HFBoards… he recieved offers from a tonne of Junior teams in the CHL also, including Kitchener, London, Windsor, Bellville, Drummondville, and others… he is a big project, but I wouldn’t declare him a huge flop just yet.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I've also been reeling in the negativity
so as not to ruin the site experience for others, but if we’re gonna vent that I’m not wasting the opportunity.
I understand that my hockey knowledge may be nill, I know that I can’t skate without looking down to save my life, and I know that even if I could, my chances of making the NHL were about as good as finding a genuine Rolex at the dollar store wiith a half price sticker on it.
But at the same time I’d like to think that I know what good hockey is and what it looks like. I have missed the last two games because of work and they were the first games of the year that I missed, but I would have bet the farm that they were they were gonna be losses because that’s what happens to us. My nephew (Who is 4) once asked me “Why is it that every time the opposition crosses the blue line I think they are gonna score?” I gave him a big hug and said “Welcome to the brotherhood”
I have been known to turn off games part way through the 3rd after a goal against because I just feel I can’t take it anymore, but the next game I’m right there checking to see which site I can watch the Leafs on. I think only Red Sox fans pre 2004 can understand how we feel.
I’m sure that we’ve all been there at some point, remote in hand trying decide if it’s really worth it to watch the game knowing deep down that we’re gonna get punched in the stomach, but having the hope that maybe, just maybe this will be the game that turns it all around……..I just realized that even know, with all the turmoil surronding this team I can’t stay away. I had plans on going off on all the things that bothered me about this team (And there are many) but I can’t do it. I know damn well that no matter what happens to this team, I’ll be tuning in the next night for game time, even if I have to go through a bottle of Gibsons Finest to make it to the end
by Ghostsof on Dec 3, 2010 7:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
We expected them to get rolled by Tampa, but they played surprisingly well, and shut down the Lightning PP.
Just a few mistakes at key moments cost the game (and some blown calls by the ref – missed Goalie Interference calls in the game & a botched non-Icing call)
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I know that they were expected to lose
but I also go into a lot of games expecting the worst to happen.
there you go:
disappointment = expectations – results
lower those expectations and you’ll feel just fine!
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
A wise man once told me
“You can never set your sights too low”
If you look up "Loyalty" in the dictionary you'll see a picture of a Leafs fan wearing a Todd Gill jeresy looking like he just got punched in the stomach
Optional Reading: Short vs. Long Statement
We have made a mistake. And I worry that the guy with the power to fix it won’t acknowledge he’s made a mistake, and will keep making bandaid fixes to retroactively prove he’s right.
Long Argument: The problem I have with everybody saying they want Burke to ‘fess up and admit he’s made a mistake, is that it seems so incredibly shortsighted. He can’t admit that he made a mistake. He definitely knows that he’s made a mistake, but what would a public confession actually achieve? As soon as he confesses his mistake, Phil Kessel’s career as a Maple Leaf is finished. How would you react if your employer called a staff meeting and announced to everyone that he made a mistake by bringing you in, should have hired some temps, but the mistake was made and now we have to wait and let you finish out your contract?
Short Argument: People need to stop calling for Burke to ‘man up’ to his mistake. It will serve no good. The mistake was made, it’s time to move on.
Shoebacca - the PK Wookie
by danishmarshmallow on Dec 3, 2010 8:39 PM EST reply actions
He can’t admit that he made a mistake. He definitely knows that he’s made a mistake, but what would a public confession actually achieve? As soon as he confesses his mistake, Phil Kessel’s career as a Maple Leaf is finished.
This is true.
Blogging on hockey at The Globe and Mail
So I'm looking up the stats of Sondre Olden
and I’m seeing this kid on the Modo J20 side… Jesper Olofsson… he has 18 goals and 2 assists in 15 games… wtf kinda Cy Young prospect is this?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
one that's 5'10"
and only 172 lbs… apparently.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
is he a 2011 draft? or did he miss out last year?
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 3, 2010 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn't drafted
as far as I can tell.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
He's 18... so this might be his draft year
he’s on the Swedish U-19 team… so we might see him at the World Juniors.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Looking at undrafted prospects in Sweden
Another name we might want to look at is Henrik Tömmernes, he’s 20 years old, he’s undrafted, he’s playing for Frolunda, and he has 17 points in 20 games so far this year and he’s described as positionally sound.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Here's the Elite Prospects review
A mobile, offensively skilled defenseman, Tömmernes is a very good skater and playmaker from the back end. Has terrific hockey sense, so his defensive game is solid as well. Often gets his point shots through the traffic in front of the net. (EP 2010)
Sounds like a possible future offensive point man.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
First round draft picks are important, and we’d rather have them than not, right? I think we can all agree on that at least.
Since the Kessel trade, I’ve seen so much rationalizing and people bending over backwards digging up every example possible to convince themselves that we are better off not drafting. We can sign free agents from college, we can get people through trade, we can find people in later rounds.
That is all true. We can do all that. But we can also do all that while drafting in the first round too, right?
I think evaluating Kessel as a player and evaluating a strategy of trading away picks for a known commodity is two different things. Also I’m as tired of talking about this trade as everyone else. It happened, he’s here, I’m ready to move on. I will take what I can get from him and hope he does as well as he possibly can. Am I allowed to do that?
Meanwhile, I actually think there is a legitimate point for debate, in terms of taking the known over the unknown. It’s a good question, and I honestly don’t know what the correct answer is because there are points both pro and against.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Dec 3, 2010 10:38 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
this is my point. I’m just not sure I’ve made it.
Yes, there are many ways to build a winner. But the one that has worked most consistenly over the years is building through the draft, with high 1st, and savvy trades and UFA signings to complement that.
We are not doing that, and the Kessel trade was actually a step AWAY from this time-tested team building method.
In my opinion, we are not “moving in the right direction” since that trade started us on the wrong direction and we’ve yet to even hit bottom on our misguided path.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Wrong
Immediate examples shown here.
The need for many high 1sts is a myth. Many teams are built from developing lower picks, and peppering them with trades and signings.
Pittsburgh (and to a lesser extent Chicago) are exceptions that are held up as the only models of competent building.
Detroit hasn’t had a high 1st pick since the early 90s (in fact, have only had one top 20 – 2005 Jakub Kindl @19 – since Marty Lapointe @ 10 in 1991. They have also had several years of no 1st rounders.)
Anaheim only had 4 of all of their 1st rounders in franchise history still in their system when they won in 2007, and only Getzlaf (19) and Perry (28) played on that team (and not an all-too-impressive season for Perry).
Carolina had Eric Staal – a definite stud @2 – and Andrew Ladd @4 who had an unimpressive 11 pts in the season and 5 in the playoffs.
Tampa had Lecavalier, who finished 4th in season and 4th in playoff scoring on the team. Their later picks and trade/UFA pieces carried the team (Richards, St Louis, Boyle, Khabibulin, Stillman, Fedotenko, Kubina, etc etc)
New Jersey only had Scott Niedermayer @3 as a high pick – who they already had for 10 years and 2 other cups. Scott Gomez @27 and Brodeur @20 were the only other New Jersey 1st rounders.
Detroit in 2002 only had Stevie Y @4. Jiri Fischer @25 was the only other Detroit 1st rounder on this Red Wing team.
But this of course flies in the face of the story that most people believe: the picks we’ve given up from the Kessel deal will deliver us a cup in 2 or 3 years, because that’s what happened in Pittsburgh & Chicago.
Well-built teams have won 5 of the preceding 7 cups with 1 or 0 high 1st rounders on their team.
The key to team building is not worrying about drafting high. It’s about drafting Hall of Famers and All-Stars, no matter what slot they come from.
My optimism can beat up your optimism.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 6, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
oops
6 of 8 preceeding cups. Can’t count.
My optimism can beat up your optimism.
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 6, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Schenn is a potential franchise D-man but we need a true-blue franchise foward.
No team since…ever has won the Cup without a true blue, never quit, dominating star player. Kane, Crosby, Lidstrom, Sakic, Modano, Gretzky, Roy, Messier, Bossy, Hasek,…..
also what about Anaheim 06-07? Are you putting Pronger or Niedermayer as that true blue, never quit, dominating star player?
by Death_By_Leafs on Dec 4, 2010 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
We're probably including
Getzlaf, Perry, Selanne, Giguere… etc.
What about Phaneuf? I thought he’d be in that echelon somehow.
Also, Hasek was pretty far from his prime as a “true blue dominating star player” when he won his Cup with Detroit. I don’t really know why Kane is on that list either, since Toews is the Captain and was named player of the Olympic Tournament… he’s probably superior as a “true blue dominating star player” … or Duncan Keith, or Marian Hossa, or any of the OTHER STAR PLAYERS ON THE TEAM!
Anyways… you want a 1st or 2nd team NHL all-star is what I’m gathering… luckily the NHL has all of what… 12 of those? most of whom repeat on a regular basis.
Yeah those should be easy to come by… we’ll just patiently finish dead last for 10-12 years and bank on the crappy odds of drafting one!
Or we could build a decent team and try to trade for the right guys to get us over the top.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
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