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Kaberle Rebuttal For Mr. Mirtle

First off, respect and congratulations to Mr. Mirtle and PPP for the inaugural Mirtle Mailbag No. 1. I think it's a really awesome feature and I'm looking forward to many more.

The first question was from kidkawartha, something about Bobby Orr being in town and visions of huge, multi-player deals, and what would James do/like to see? To my dismay this was the response:

I think they should move Kaberle, but it doesn't have to necessarily be by the deadline. Maybe he fetches more in the off-season when there are more teams in the mix?

The Leafs appear to pretty much have their top five on the blueline figured out at this point (Phaneuf, Beauchemin, Schenn, Komisarek, Gunnarsson) and with Kaberle's minutes down into the 17, 18 minute range lately, I don't see him as an integral piece going forward. Yes, he's produced points, but I can't help but look at his QCMP and GA/60 at even strength and think it's time to move his salary for some help up front.

Star-divide

 

Well, look out, here comes my rebuttal. It's got a lot of questions in it, not because I'm trying to be arrogant and sarcastic, but because these are actual questions that run through my head that I think I know the answer to but then again maybe I don't.

"The Leafs appear to pretty much have their top five on the blueline figured out at this point"

Why can’t it be that they have their top-six D figured out? Kaberle, Komisarek, Beauchemin, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and Schenn is an awesome six-pack on the blueline. Why would you be in a rush to break that up? Unfortunately, Komi is gone for the season so the only way we’ll see these six suit up together is to not trade Kaberle in the off-season. Gunnarsson replaces White nicely, but he won’t replace Kaberle’s unique skill set. If you trade Kaberle, who’s your set up man on the point? Who carries the puck through the neutral zone against the trap? Who’s your sixth defenceman? Suddenly the puzzle pieces don’t fit together so well. If we’re building from the blueline out, with the acquisition of Phaneuf I feel like Stage One is complete, but only if we keep Kaberle, otherwise there’s still a huge hole.

"with Kaberle’s minutes down into the 17, 18 minute range lately"

Kaberle’s Time On Ice last 8 games: 22:33, 21:44, 21:31, 19:18, 20:35, 15:20, 17:48, 20:53. I only see two games below 19 minutes. Still, the arrival of Phaneuf could be seen as an opportunity to lean on Kaberle a little less and give him a bit of a break since he’s been overworked for most of this season. I’m sure it wasn’t part of the plan to have Komisarek play less then half the season or for Jeff Finger to suck balls. Kaberle has still averaged 22:42 ice time this season, 2nd on the team only to Beauchemin (but not including White or Phaneuf). He deserves a rest and deserves to have some of the responsibility off his shoulders for a few games. Also, I think the Leafs are still figuring out what they’ve got in Gunnarsson. Obviously he’s good but he’s only played 21 NHL games. How much pressure can he handle? How many different situations can he play in? I suspect they’ll push Gunnarsson as much as they can from now until the end of the season to try to get a read on what they really have there. With the Leafs out of the playoff picture, it makes sense to give developing players more time on the ice.

"he’s produced points, but I can’t help but look at his QCMP and GA/60 at even strength"

Is it really so horrible? It honestly doesn’t look that bad (2.85) to me. It’s better then XLB (3.06) and much better then Finger (3.98) and within range of Schenn (2.67) and Beauchemin (2.62). That doesn’t scream DEFENSIVE LIABILITY GET RID OF THIS GUY! to me. Keep in mind that all of the GA numbers are skewed by the fact that they had a goaltender who lets in random shots regardless of quality. His +/-ON60 is 8th best on the team (forwards and defence) and that includes both newcomers Phaneuf and Sjostrom. The only defenceman with a better +/-ON60 rating is Schenn, who also happens to have a lower QCMP rating. So stats-schmatz. Kaberle is awesome at what he does, not at WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO. He’s having his best offensive season in years – and doing it without Antropov, Kubina, McCabe, Tucker, or Sundin – but we’re going to trade him for not being quite good enough defensively. Too much.

"it’s time to move his salary for some help up front"

Seems like Kaberle’s contract is among the best values in the league. The difference between Kaberle (4.25) and Finger’s (3.5) cap-hit for next season is just 750,000. Think about that… If, as Kaberle’s agent, Rick Curran claims, Kaberle believes he’s "part of the solution" and wants to stay, isn’t that an indication that Kaberle’s next contract will also be better then market value if he stays in Toronto? Isn’t that good asset management to have players outperforming their contracts? With the NHL’s salary cap, every dollar saved on one contract can then be spent usefully on another. Kaberle has always seemed like a team-first guy and has never once come across like a megalomaniac superstar princess that requires special attention or adoration. Why would you want to get rid of a guy like that? Where the fuck is the loyalty?

Lastly, speaking of loyalty, honour, and integrity, which Brian Burke often does, do you think that what happened at last year’s draft – with the whole Kessel-for-Kaberle trade thing falling apart – was that at all professionally embarrassing to Burke? And do you think that if Kaberle handled the situation with class and dignity, which I imagine he did, and then showed up for camp and was the Leafs best player through the first month of the season until Kessel arrived, that Kaberle might have earned Burke’s respect just a little bit and that Burke might want to demonstrate some loyalty in the one situation where it really matters, with the team’s leading scorer and longest serving player? Just wondering.

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Comments

Display:

First off

That picture of Kaberle makes him look awesome. Also, he could be Pete Mitchell’s wingman anytime.

As for the contract, Burke can start talking to him now and it would behoove him, if he plans on keeping him, to find out just how much of a part of the solution he wants to be. Starting July 1st he can sign him. However, a year of Kaberle only to lose him at the end for nothing is not good asset management.

And you make a good point about Kaberle dealing with the draft deal that fell apart very well.

I’m just at the stage where I don’t care too much about whether guys stay or go so long as it’s good for the team.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Feb 11, 2010 12:07 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed

Particularly on the Top Gun reference.

I’m sympathetic to everything the General says. In my ideal world we wouldn’t have signed Komi (that was my view this summer—I thought Beauch was a great signing but $4.5MM for Komi, who to me is a classic 2nd pair defender, was too much). Then we could have seriously thought about extending Kaberle for something between $4-5MM, and moved forward with a defence of Phaneuf, Beauch, Schenn, Kabs, Gunnarsson & whoever. I love the skills Kaberle brings to the team and for all his defensive shortcomings he’s smart positionally and is clearly not a liability out there at even strength. A few years ago I worked with a former pro and current GM (a good one) and I still remember the reverence in his voice when he talked about how Kaberle’s passing could pick you apart.

However, we’re living in a world where Phaneuf, Komi, Beauch & Schenn are making $18MM for the foreseeable future (assuming Schenn gets re-upped as an RFA around $3MM.) In this world, you can’t be paying $4-5MM for a luxury like Kaberle. You just can’t. As Schenn and Gunnar (and maybe Dion?) continue to improve, I think Kaberle’s future on this team would be at best 18min/gm (Hypothetical for 2011/12: Dion 24, Beauch, Gunnar & Schenn 22, Kabs 18 and #6 12). If our prayers are answered and Dion turns into Pronger, Schenn turns into Foote and Gunnar turns into Brian Rafalski (or even if just one of those things happens), Kabs’ role goes down even more. It sucks, but he’s been squeezed out of this team. And he’s too expensive an insurance policy if none of these guys do develop as hoped.

Look, if Kaberle REALLY wants to stay in Toronto, and will extend his deal over the summer for $3MM/yr, I’d do it in a heartbeat. But if he wants anything close to his market value, we have to cash him in while we can.

by The '67 Sound on Feb 11, 2010 9:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Komisarek struggled off the bat but he was really hitting his stride when he went down with the shoulder injury.

He brings a hard nosed physical game and alongside Schenn and Phaneuf I’d keep my head up in the neutral zone playing the Leafs next season.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Feb 11, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I worry now whether the shoulder will ever fully heal. It’s going on almost two years now.

I agree Komi has value, I just think for $4.5MM you should bring more to the table than a strong physical game. You need to either be an absolute monster lock-down defender (which Komi is not) or you need an offensive element (which he does not have).

But it’s moot. He’s not going anywhere.

by The '67 Sound on Feb 11, 2010 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Ya I think 4.5M is above his market value, but wasn’t the rumour that Montreal offered him $4m? Burke had to go over the top to get the man he wanted.

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 11, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, he didn’t have surgery on it the first time. He tried to do what Fernando Torres was doing with his hernia and trying to deal with it through physical therapy.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Feb 11, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Just realized my 2011/12 hypothetical excluded Komisarek. There aren’t NEARLY enough minutes to go around for the amount the Leafs are paying these guys unless one of the vets gets moved.

by The '67 Sound on Feb 11, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I can't see Kabby signing for less than he already makes

In the regular season, for his NHL career, Kabby’s produced at a 0.60 PPG clip in the regular season, and 0.36 PPG in the post season. That’s a dip of 0.24 PPG between regular and post season play.

Out of curiosity, I looked at other players with aproximately the same amount of regular season games played as Kabby, just to see how he compared on this one statistic (LEGALESE/PLEASE NOTEI’m not saying he’s comparable to ANY of these players, just looking at their points per game over the course of their respective careers)

  • Rafalski – 0.61 PPG reg, 0.61 PPG post ($6M per)
  • Boyle – 0.60 PPG reg, 0.51 PPG post ($6.7M per)
  • Timonen – 0.53 PPG reg, 0.37 PPG post ($6.3 M per)
  • Jovanovski – 0.49 PPG reg, 0.48 PPG post ($6.5M per)
  • Morris – 0.43 PPG reg, 0.36 PPG post ($3.3M per)
  • Chara – 0.43 PPG reg, 0.32 PPG post ($7.5 M per)
  • Kubina – 0.42 PPG reg, 0.16 PPG post ($5M per)
  • Spacek – 0.42 PPG reg, 0.32 PPG post ($3.8M per)

Looking at those players, the only ones that come close to his regular season point production rate are Rafalski, Boyle, Timonen and (to a lesser extent) Jovanovski. However of those 4, only Timonen sees a significant dip (less 0.16 PPG reg to post, vs Kabby’s 0.24 dip from reg to post) in his post season production.

The only player to see his production dip more significantly than Kaberle in the post season is Kubina. His points per game in the playoffs is reduced by 0.26 (0.27 with rounding…) from a 0.42 PPG in regular season games to a 0.16 PPG rate in the post season. In addition, Timonen

If Kabby and his agent were to try and draw up comparable players, I’d think they’d look at a Timonen type of player, making north of $6M per season on average. If I were Burke, Nonis et al, I’d look at guys like Derek Morris ($3.3M per), Tom Poti (not listed above: 0.41 PPG reg, 0.33 PPG post, $3.5M per) or Brad Stuart (0.36 PPG reg, 0.22 PPG post, $3.75M per.)

Reiterating; I’m not saying Kaberle is comparable overall to any of these players, as there are far more facets than a players PPG rate (especially for d-men.) What I find interesting is that for a player counted on to help produce offense, when the games get tough, his points dry up.

In addition, players that I find more comparable to Kaberle (Timonen and Morris in particular) wouldn’t attract the type of return we’re all hoping Kaberle would if he were traded. For Timonen, his trade value takes a significant hit due to his high dollar contract, while Morris, who at one point was considered a blue chip can’t miss future top 4 blueliner, has an affordable contract, he’s never commanded a very high trade value (that I can recall. Could be wrong…)

If Kaberle and his agent see Kabby as an elite top 2 d-man, while Burke and company see him as more suited to a top 4 role, is a $3M difference in salary expectations going to be brushed away for the sake of wanting to play in TO? Would even a $1M difference be overlooked? Historically, it usually has not. If Burke can’t talk extension until this summer with Kabby and his agent, I’d hope his initial question is “how much do you expect to make over the course of this deal?” If the two sides are significantly apart, I’d be more inclined to trade him while the window is open, and hopefully before his contract expectations hit the open market.

Great post general (as always!) Don’t disagree with your stance and questions, but for me it’s really about Kabby’s value now on the open market, vs what his cap hit will be if he stays.

Also, apologies for the very long winded comment…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Feb 11, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Great comment

The other biggest statistic for D men is TOI, and Kabby will do pretty well there too, particularly if you look at last year. This is consistent with my fear that Kabby’s market value—if he demands it—is more than I would pay.

by The '67 Sound on Feb 11, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really fair, though

Kaberle’s best offensive seasons have all come since the lockout. If you compare his post-season numbers to his regular season numbers in the seasons the Leafs actually were making the playoffs, the drop-off is much smaller. (0.14 instead of 0.24)

We don’t know what kind of post-season numbers he would have put up since he came more into his own offensively because he never got to play the games.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Feb 12, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, too much money tied up on D and something has got to give.
Given the BB brought in the other 3 high paid defense, it seems natural that Kaberle is on his way out.

Unless Burke trades one of the other 3 high paid d-man he brought in.

Will miss Kaberle though

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Feb 11, 2010 9:55 AM EST reply actions  

Kaberle’s cap hit for next season is 4.25. Finger’s is 3.5. That’s a difference of only 750,000. Finger represents a huge waste of money and moving him off the roster should be the first priority.

by general borschevsky on Feb 11, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

But offloading Finger’s $3.5M only frees up a small amount of cash to spend on lower-end players.

Moving Kaberle can bring in pieces that address the team’s weaknesses.

This excerpt from an interview with Steve Yzerman about Mike Green sums up how I see the situation

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 11, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Link

Here it is

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 11, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow

There is a lot of Yzerman hating for leaving Green off the team.

I was a bit surprised, but not SHOCKED – he was considered my 7th dman anyway on my Canada roster.

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 11, 2010 12:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Mike Green walks on water.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 11, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

they have yet to realize so does every other NHL player

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 11, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

And referees too

and the guy who sings the national anthem. The Zamboni guy even drives on water!

by general borschevsky on Feb 11, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Also

it took me a minute to realize that the post was at Japers Rink haha.

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 11, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Id rather have kaberle than komisarek… but like whats been said, komi isnt going anywhere. I guess this is a good problem to have, youd rather have too many good assets than not have enough.

I just really hope the return on Kabba in the summer is really solid. Id hate to lose him for just a draft pick that might not even pan out. Id prefer a roster player, someone who can make an immidiate impact next season plus a prospect for the marlies.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Feb 11, 2010 10:23 AM EST reply actions  

I dont see how it would be a good idea to keep Kaberle. He’s the Leafs only significant marketable asset. Its all well and good to have our top 6 D sorted out for the forseeable future, however one of Schenn, Komisarek or Beauchemin doesnt belong on a 3rd defensive pairing for the next 5 years with the Leafs. Thats not even mentioning the already huge money set aside in Defence salaries (without Kaberle’s pay increase at the end of next season)
I say we trade Kaberle in the off-season (or earlier if he waives his NTC) get ourselves a top six forward, or a 1st +pick and even out the balance between or defence & forwards.

by laple meafs on Feb 11, 2010 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

I’m not sure Schenn does deserve a guaranteed spot in the top-4 without having to compete for it. Right now I think he is a 5th or 6th defenceman that can slide into the top-4 if he’s having a good game. Earlier this season many people (but not me) were ready to send Schenn to the Marlies. Now we’re ready to hand him a spot in the top-4 without having anyone there to challenge him for ice-time?

Gunnarsson looks great, but he’s only played 21 NHL games. He’s still mostly unproven. Slotting him into the top-4 for next year at this stage is taking a significant risk. Still 22 games left this year for him to prove himself and then we’ll see how serious he is when he comes to camp next September. Way too early to just hand him a spot in the line-up unless next year is going to be a learning experience again and not a season where we actually compete in the standings.

by general borschevsky on Feb 11, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I wasnt implying that either Schenn or Gunnarsson is deserving of a top-4 spot this year, or maybe even next year. However, if we lock up Kaberle once his contract is up, there will be no room for either of the aforementioned in the top-4 for the long-term. 2-3+ years from now, I imagine Schenn to be a top four defenceman, and if we’ve got Kaberle, Phaneuf, Beauchemin & Komisarek… that wont be feasible.

Considering we arent going to win a stanley cup in the next year or two, lets give Schenn the top-4 minutes so he can improve his skills instead of playing 12+minutes per game, and get an asset back for Kaberle’s sexy contract.

Phaneuf-Komi
Beauchemin-Schenn
Gunnarsson/XLB/Finger/anyone

doesnt look too shabby to me for the next year or two

by laple meafs on Feb 11, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Felix Potvin @mlse If Kaberle re-signs in Toronto under market value: awesome. If he gets traded for a king’s ransom: awesome. If he leaves as a UFA…

That tends to kind of some things up for me, although I do think they should remake Top Gun with Komisarek as Goose and Kadri as Cruise.

I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.

by kidkawartha on Feb 11, 2010 2:06 PM EST reply actions  

who is iceman? Schenn?

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 11, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Exelby should be Maverick because every time he is out on the ice he is UN-SAFE

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 11, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

On the other hand, Phaneuf does end up with the hot chick………….
Someone needs to tell blogesalming to get to work on this.

I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.

by kidkawartha on Feb 11, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

yes!

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Feb 11, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Phaneuf would also work as Maverick.

Komisarek strikes me as the Iceman-type so maybe Kaberle can be Goose.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Feb 11, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

grabbo as the clueless russian pilot that gets flipped off

Puns, Innuendo and Bad Spelling, Yes We Got That

by JaredFromLondon on Feb 11, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Perfect.

I am Mikhail Grabovski's smirking revenge.

by kidkawartha on Feb 12, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

While I like to build teams from the net out, you do need to have balance on your team. Ideally, your money should be structured so that your eleven highest paid players fit into your top 6 forward slots, your top 4 defensive slots and your starting goalie. These are the players who will be on the ice the most and will likely contribute more to your team’s success or failure.

If we are to look at the current make-up of the Leafs, you’ll notice something is wrong. Of our 11 highest paid players (including bonuses, per Cap Geek), three of them are forwards. We have 7 defensemen who are making 2.9 million or more (although MVR is a UFA after the season and doesn’t count against the cap right now because he’s on LTIR). Our second highest paid forward is Tyler Bozak for crying out loud.

In a perfect world, we can trade Jeff Finger for a forward with a comparable salary, but that isn’t likely to happen given that he has another 2 years remaining on his contract at $3.5 million for a 6th/7th defensemen. Actually, in a really perfect world, we can trade Finger for a useful forward as well as dealing Kaberle for an established forward and then sign a solid defensemen who can play in the 2nd pairing if necessary, or just be a really solid 3rd pairing guy.

We require, as a team, proper levels of pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence.
DION F*****G PHANEUF

by Belligerent Burkie on Feb 11, 2010 3:10 PM EST reply actions  

I’d do backflips if we could trade Finger for a punch in the face.

by The '67 Sound on Feb 11, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Would you go as high as a Crosbyesque junk-punch?

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Feb 11, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

That was my contribution to this conversation.

I agree with Chemmy, Kidk et al….. If you can get him on the cheap then go for it, if he wants near/full market value – trade him now.

Also, if we can lock him up, no NTC… just to keep our options open.

one more thing – Why do they call him Finger, I have never seen him Fing…

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Feb 11, 2010 4:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh wait

There he goes

We require, as a team, proper levels of pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence.
DION F*****G PHANEUF

by Belligerent Burkie on Feb 11, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish

he would go

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Feb 11, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting support for the General

GVT is a new stat to me—basically an attempt to duplicate VORP from baseball. The details are here (http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=233) and I don’t think the creator would claim it’s perfect but it ranks Kaberle as our best player this year: http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/gvt.php?sort=14&mingp=&team=TOR&pos=ALL. As a reality check, 2-7 are Kessel, Poni, White, Hagman, Stajan and (after only 3 games!!!) Giggy. As a further reality check Toskala is dead fucking last by a looooongshot.

Here’s a final reality check: the top ranked skaters this year in the NHL are Ovie, Sid, H. Sedin, Backstrom, Keith, Parise, Marleau!!!1, Gaborik, Green and Semin. That’s not a bad ranking. And dead last in the entire NHL—with a rating almost twice as bad as the next worst player? Your newest not-so-Mighty Duck, the worst player in the NHL, Vesa Toskala.

by The '67 Sound on Feb 12, 2010 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

I haven’t even looked at the stat or how it works yet, but based on the ranking I have already decided it is the most accurate statistic in the NHL.

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Feb 12, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

best stat ever. no doubt.

Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.

by daoust on Feb 13, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I liked this post

Until you praised Kaberle for being the best player on the 0-7 Leafs..

by njd.aitken on Feb 14, 2010 4:01 AM EST reply actions  

Damn I just saw this post now. My rebuttal’s back in the original thread though.

Comparing anyone’s salary to Finger isn’t cool.

Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey

by James Mirtle on Feb 17, 2010 1:53 PM EST reply actions  

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