What's up with Dion Phaneuf?
Inspired by a little debate in the FTBs between leafer1984 and mf37, I thought I'd look at potential reasons for Phaneuf's declining offensive production in his last two seasons.
I'll start with the raw stats:
| Season | Age | Team | Lg | GP | G | A | PTS | +/- | PIM | ESG | PPG | SHG | GWG | SOG | SPCT | TOI | ATOI |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2005-06 | 20 | Calgary Flames | NHL | 82 | 20 | 29 | 49 | 5 | 93 | 4 | 16 | 0 | 7 | 242 | 8.3 | 1782 | 21:44 |
| 2006-07 | 21 | Calgary Flames | NHL | 79 | 17 | 33 | 50 | 10 | 98 | 4 | 13 | 0 | 4 | 230 | 7.4 | 2027 | 25:40 |
| 2007-08 | 22 | Calgary Flames | NHL | 82 | 17 | 43 | 60 | 12 | 182 | 6 | 10 | 1 | 4 | 263 | 6.5 | 2167 | 26:25 |
| 2008-09 | 23 | Calgary Flames | NHL | 80 | 11 | 36 | 47 | -11 | 100 | 7 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 277 | 4.0 | 2122 | 26:32 |
| 2009-10 | 24 | 2 Teams | NHL | 66 | 10 | 14 | 24 | 2 | 69 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 173 | 5.8 | 1568 | 23:46 | |
| 2009-10 | 24 | Calgary Flames | NHL | 55 | 10 | 12 | 22 | 3 | 49 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 138 | 7.2 | 1278 | 23:14 | |
| 2009-10 | 24 | Toronto Maple Leafs | NHL | 11 | 0 | 2 | 2 | -1 | 20 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 35 | 0.0 | 290 | 26:22 | |
| Career | 5 Seasons | NHL | 389 | 75 | 155 | 230 | 18 | 542 | 26 | 48 | 1 | 19 | 1185 | 6.3 | 9666 | 24:51 |
What does this tell us?
1. His shooting percentage steadily declined every year until it actually bounced back this year. Which is the better reflection of true ability, his over 6.5% in the first three years, or sub-6.5% the last couple years? Frankly there's not that big a swing here. Looks to me like his true shooting percentage is probably in the 6-7% range. As a reality check, I looked at the S% of the top 30 NHL goalscorers among D this year, and they range from 5.1% (Lidstrom) to 14.9% (Grebeshkov). Even guys ranked 31-60 in goals have S% in the 5-10% range, so I think we can expect a guy with a howitzer like Phaneuf to settle somewhere around 6.5%.
2. His SOG/gm are typically a little over 3. This year he dipped with the Flames (no doubt due to J-Bo), but he's back up to 35 shots in 11 games with the Leafs. No problems here.
3. His ES goals have been steady at 4-7/yr, including already 5 this year. The big fluctuation has come on the PP, where he lit it up his first three years (though less so each year).
4. His assists increased each of his first three years, declining last year (but still his second best year for assists). This year they're off dramatically. I'd love for someone who has watched a lot of Calgary games (Karina?) to tell us if this is something about his game that has changed, or just a teammate effect. However, it's noteworthy that last year he received 5:34/gm of PP TOI, and recorded 17 PP assists. This year with the Flames? 3:46 (still tops on the team but way down) and only 6 PP assists. The drop off in PP time and production accounts for some (though certainly not all) of the overall decline in assists.
5. He's on pace for his lowest ever year in PIMs, but he's not far off his totals except for that huge 07/08 year. From what I've seen with the Leafs he still brings the nasty.
In short, I don't see anything in the underlying data indicating a long-term decline, except perhaps for the drop off in assists this year. I'd wait for two straight years of declining assists before I worried about that too much. If he keeps bombing 250 shots per season, he should be right around 15 goals. He's been on a dry spell and hopefully after a training camp with the Leafs he can help get the PP clicking again.
So much for the offense. What about defense? Well, Dion's never been a shut-down guy. In his 07/08 Norris candidacy year, he was only 3rd on the team in Qualcomp, well behind Regehr and Sarich. His overall behindthenet rating was middle of the pack. The stats were similar last year.
So it would appear that Phaneuf remains what he has always been. He's an utter workhorse who eats minutes and rarely misses a game. He's skilled offensively and should pile up points on the PP. He can play on your second PK unit, but he shouldn't be on your first (he ranked around 3-5 on the Flames in SH TOI the last three years).
Does all this add up to a $6.5MM player? Probably not, but he's not far off. Guys who can play over 25 minutes with a physical edge and rack up 45-60 points aren't cheap. Here are the guys immediately above and below him in salary:
Jay Bouwmeester: $6.68
Dan Boyle: $6.67
Wade Redden: $6.5 (hahaha)
Dion Phaneuf: $6.5
Ed Jovanovski: $6.5
Kimmo Timmonen: $6.33
Chris Pronger: $6.25
Those aren't terrible comparables for Phaneuf. J-Bo is the only one that I think is clearly better in pretty much every aspect. With the others it's a matter of trade-offs. Sure, we'd love to have him for Shea Weber ($4.5MM for 2 more years) or Duncan Keith ($5.55 forever) money, but he's not grossly overpaid compared to the six other players listed above.
I had been worried that we had a player in long-term decline, but these numbers tell me we have a guy who has been a bit snakebit this year and should rebound. If the cap climbs over the life of the deal he might actually perform close to his contract. I can live with this.
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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Thought you’d like it! I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 12, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Love it! My blind love for Dion’s game is now backed up by math!
Phaneuf Phever, an upgrade in skill and alliteration!
Part of the reason I think his shooting has been so bad and prolific with the Leafs is that it is by design.
Instead of dumping the puck into the corner Phaneuf will frequently change the angle and just fire a wrist shot towards the net. I noticed especially last night that he did it a lot more frequently.
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Maybe, but his s% was good with the Flames this year. I’ve noticed also that he likes that move where the shooting angle is covered so from the right point he does a spinerama to the backhand and dumps it in the corner along the boards. I think we just need a bigger sample size.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 12, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
I think we just need a bigger sample size.
Exactly. It is all well and good to compare stats from year to year, etc. but you always need to put this into context in terms of his role on each team and their style of play.
He is being used slightly differently than he was in Calgary (due in part to J-Bo, in part to Leafs style vs Calgary style), so i’d really love to wait for more than 11 games of data points before jumping to severe conclusions.
Great post by the way.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 12, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. I think looking at the sample size of his entire Flames career makes me feel much better offense-wise than his 11 games as a Leaf!
Hopefully his role here will be more like it was in Calgary pre-J-Bo. Let’s give him some time.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 12, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
An interesting look, but here’s what troubles me: Phaneuf is paid top 8 dollars, but he’s not top-8 in a single statistical category for defencemen:
13th in Goals
72nd in Assissts
51st in Points
26th in TOI/G
15th in PP TOI/G
Doesn’t crack the top 100 in SH TOI/G
10th in hits
124th in blocked shots
59th in GF/60
120th in GA/60
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Yeah...
I think we’re all a bit worried that he won’t live up to this contract. This is especially true if his numbers have been relatively stable over the years, because this suggests that he not going to enhance the value we get on his $6.5M cap hit.
I really do think that he has brought about an important culture change in the dressing room lately, however. Furthermore, although I’ve seen him make idiot plays going for a big hit, I’ve also seen him look quite responsible defensively the remaining 95% of the time. Oh, and we have a half-decent goaltender to bail us out of those brain cramp situations.
The bottom line is, although he may never live up to his contract, the Leafs are still a significantly better team with Phaneuf in the lineup than they were with Stajan, Hagman, White and Mayers in it. Maybe I’ll hate him next year, but for now, I’m happy to have him and his contract on board.
Given how many awesome D are on EL or RFA contracts this kind of analysis will always kill a contract like Phaneuf’s. I know he wasn’t a UFA but Calgary (and Toronto) clearly decided to pay him like one.
Also, outside his rookie year and this year with Calgary (sharing time with J-Bo) he’s always been over 25 mpg, which is probably the single most important stat for D-man. 12th, 5th and 5th from 2007-2009. His 26:22 with the Leafs would put him 3rd, and it’s not like we have no depth on D.
FWIW, 15th, 5th and 16th in points over the same span. I see nothing in the underlying SOG and S% stats to suggest this year’s offensive drop off is anything but an anomaly. Also noteworthy Calgary is 27th in NHL in goals this year; past few years they were always an above average team. No doubt Dion takes some of the blame for that but I think it’s more the reverse: his stats were down because the team sucked offensively. I mean, Stajan immediately became their #1C. Dion couldn’t do it all himself.
Bottom line is I think all good teams need a premium all-rounder who can play 25+ mins and put up better than 0.5 ppg. We haven’t had one since—what, early 80s Borje?—until now. If we have to overpay him a bit to get someone like that, it’s a place I’m willing to overpay. We just have to make up for it other places (like trading Komi!!! Sorry everyone).
by The '67 Sound on Mar 12, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Also, just for comparison’s sake, McCabe’s big contract (the biggest Leafs D contract until now) was 13% of the cap when signed. Phaneuf’s is 11.4%.
McCabe had some huge offensive years and was a very valuable player pre-lockout but I think we’d all agree Phaneuf has put together a superior career to date. When McCabe was 24 he was with the Blackhawks, widely considered a disappointment, and had a career high of 28 points.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 12, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
Plus Phaneuf hasn’t put any pucks into our own net (yet)
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 12, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Let’s remember the good times with Bryan now, can’t we? I’ve forgiven him.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 12, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
mccabe was a warrior for us for a long time…. then, BAM, off 2 posts and in your own net and the whole city turns on you and your career as a leaf goes in the toilet
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Mar 12, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
The sad part is
Had we not paid him the amount (plus NMC) for his career year, he could have continued his career here.
Too many of us (myself included) bought into the hype that he was an elite point getting defencemen…
The expectations we placed on him combined with the crazy deal he got meant he couldn’t perform up to what the fan base, team and media put on him.
Still, I am not sad that he is gone. He seems to be enjoying Florida – for what that’s worth.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 12, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure that picking a terrible contract like McCabe’s for comparative purposes is the best path to take here…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
the combination of 13th in goals and 10th in hits in whats being touted as a bad year for him make me think we don’t have to start piling into the bomb shelter. of all the categories listed those two, especially in combination with eachother have the biggest impact. His net ranking in all of those categories is probably somewhere closer to the top 8 than his individuals.
Dimitri Yuskevich was so tough, he once blocked a Chuck Norris kick with his teeth and finished the shift.
by AkiSchennberg on Mar 12, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
and just to show that i fixed the glaring spelling mistake in my sig..
Dmitri Yushkevich was so tough, he once blocked a Chuck Norris kick with his teeth and finished the shift.
by AkiSchennberg on Mar 12, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Good breakdown, but until I see next season, this is like putting a brave face on a blind date – still not quite sure what we’re getting into. Redden was once considered good by some, too.
Let's all agree to keep Dion away from the coke
No guarantees in anything, but Phaneuf has an established track record and the stats suggest his diminished points this year are an anomaly.
Redden was 30 when Sather signed him to that moronic-before-the-ink-was-dry contract, coming off 4 straight years of declining minutes. However, Redden was still an excellent D-man at 28 (65G, 50 pts, 23:28), which will be Dion’s age when this deal expires.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 12, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
Let's wait and see what we have
Great post 67 Sound.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 12, 2010 3:34 PM EST reply actions
How about shots through glass?
I was at a Flames/Wild game last year and Dion shattered the same pane of glass behind Harding on consecutive shifts, one from centre ice!
Big applause for that one.
Proud supporter of Leafs/Flames trades since 1991.
by Sergei Puckizin on Mar 12, 2010 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Loved this part
Wade Redden: $6.5 (hahaha)
A sucker punch of comedy in an otherwise serious post. I lol’d pretty heartily for that! We need to give him at least a full year to see what he can actually bring to the Leafs’ table (no need to read into things TOO much just yet), but this was a good look at the stats. Good post 67, keep ’em coming!
-- *deep exasperated sigh* -- Ron Wilson, when asked how he felt about returning to Toronto's bench after the Olympics.
So he’s not dominant in a single category, sure. But he’s pretty good in a lot of them, so how does THAT stand up to other defencemen? Like if you pick the most important 3 categories (say, points, hits, TOI), and average everyone’s ranks across all of them, someone who had excellent points but lousy hits would drop down the rankings, and Phaneuf would bob merrily up.
If you wanted to be REALLY sophisticated you could invent weights for how important each category is (like 1 for points, because it’s 100% important, .8 for hits (80% important), .2 for PIM (20% important, because it’s so much based on teammates), and multiply all the rankings by their respective weights before you add them together. That way you can see if he’s generally better at a basket of good things, but he still gets SOME credit for doing well on less important things.
Oh, statistics, how you keep us entertained :)
flames fan
I’ve watched every Flames game Dion has played in for the most part. The bottom line is that he is slowly improving as a defensive presence, but his offense declined because teams adjusted to him, but he hasn’t learned how to deal with that. He recklessly shoots one timers on power plays and can’t seem to hit the net because opponents anticipate when the set play is coming and easily block them. Has he peaked as a rookie goals-wise? Not likely. He just needs to show more patience on the point. I’m curious on to how he’ll develop in TOR. Its strange because you guys have so many expensive defensemen, just like what we had. Burke will probably really regret signing Beauch or Komi, but at the same time its not like he ever anticipated he’d get Dion in 8 months.
The reason for Dion’s lack of PP minutes on CGY was the emergence of Mark Giordano. He has more goals and points this year than he does, with the same amount of PIMs. Plus, you know, he can actually hit the f*cking net!
by Rod Blogojevich on Mar 13, 2010 2:40 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Why does Jay-Bo have an even worse shooting percentage (I think it;s 1.8 atm) despite nailing the net at an 8 percent clip the previous couple of seasons?
this is a question starting to come up a lot in calgary, alongside “when did jaybouw start really sucking ?” … okay, maybe it’s just me who’s asking but i have to wonder if he’s injured somehow, cause he hasn’t been skating as well in the last few weeks, and he’s lost his man more in that time period than the previous 5 months.
by walkinvisible on Mar 13, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
I’d love for someone who has watched a lot of Calgary games to tell us if this is something about his game that has changed, or just a teammate effect.
i’m not a statistician in any sense of the word, but i have been watching dion with a keen eye since the birth of his nhl career…. and i gotta say: his game has always had some problems but they have become more and more glaring with each passing season…. it’s definitely possible that he’ll turn it around in toronto, but it’s gonna take some smart coaching/coddling; there is definitely merit to the theory that brent sutter was brought to calgary because dion THRIVED under his tutelage in red deer, and the flames’ management was hoping to turn his game around…. a theory that should be worrisome to buds fans…. but i digress.
just shy of a month before he was traded, i wrote this post about what i wouldn’t miss about dion if he were to be dealt… it has a nice summary of his bad habits which you can watch for, yourself, in the next month (cause i know he’s still demonstrating them)…
and if you feel like it’s just me who’s noticed, have a look at the clip here, where kelly hrudey calls him out on national television.
the only other thing i have to say about dion is that ron wilson would be smart to bring down his icetime… 27 minutes is too much. what ends up happening is that he “rests” on the ice and essentially stops skating…. sure he can handle the minutes, but you’ll end up seeing at least a couple of goals against every night where he doesn’t engage the play.
ian white doesn’t have the bullet shot and he clearly can’t hit explosively like dion, but he’s a far better defender all-around. he seems a lot smarter (!!) positionally, and is a better skater/passer…. oh, and regehr doesn’t effin’ HATE him. :P
You might
want to read this and this about Ian White – just to prepare you for his qualifying offer.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 13, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’d be hard-pressed to find anyone here who doesn’t love the play of Ian White. He was one of the fan favourites in Blue & White.
The only 2 problems were:
A) He may be playing at somewhere close to his ceiling
B) He is going to be expecting a big raise this summer
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 13, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
Ian White is very good – especially Moustachulence-wise
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 13, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Also
if you want a good view on Matt Stajan – check out articles here, here and here all with Stajan content.
Being Leaf fans, we obviously over-analyze everything – and sometimes we get it right.
Also, keep him away from soccer balls.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 13, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
You say in your blog post that Dion got off to a great start in Toronto, threw some big hits, got in a fight, scored a goal. To the best of my knowledge he hasn’t scored a goal yet in a Leaf uniform.
by CanadianMaple09 on Mar 13, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
he will tonight. Dion smash Eddyton…. Dion hate!!! Dion kill puk!!
by Chuck Diesel on Mar 13, 2010 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
LOL. i guess i could be wrong, but i really can’t understand why you guys love him so much sans-goals !!! :P as for ian white, it’s gonna be tough to sign him for sure, especially since darryl gave staios all the effin’ ian white capspace…. or, i suppose you could consider that kotalik’s 3mil would be far better spent on the guy we like to call #3 v.2.0. ;)
i used to live in toronto so i’m actually a pretty big matt stajan supporter. i’ve got no problems there. and as for toskalol…. well, he’s done a bang-up job of opening and closing the gate, and was “better than backelhinney” in his one start. :)
seriously, though. watch dion defensively it’s kindof painful.
by walkinvisible on Mar 13, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I already have – handles the puck like a grenade in his own end/neutral zone
He needs to adjust or the team needs to adjust around him
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 13, 2010 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
i just turned the game on tonight and my roommate says that dion’s actually been playing pretty well, but one must ask how a guy is -2 in a 5-2 game…. i didn’t want to write it over on the gamethread cause i’d just get accused of trolling.
by walkinvisible on Mar 13, 2010 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
bashing an individual player when the team is winning is not a good idea.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 13, 2010 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
um. it is is the player in question is dion phaneuf and the person doing the questionning (i wouldn’t say “bashing”) is a flames fan… just sayin’. :P
by walkinvisible on Mar 13, 2010 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Remember – you are talking to a fan base that takes a lot of shit during regular times, let alone really bad times.
Game threads are not the place to talk about that, emotions usually run pretty high.
Threads like this – perfect for those discussions.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 14, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the input
A couple questions:
1. Has Dion EVER been a good defender? Even in his glory days I didn’t see any evidence of him as a lock-down guy. If he has regressed, do you think it’s laziness or something else? Has his defence pairing changed? I see him needing to play with a very sound defensive partner to cover up his mistakes. Hopefully Schenn can develop into that guy.
2. I hear a lot of talk about his shot always getting blocked/going wide, but is this a new development? His SOG #s don’t seem to have varied with the exception of this year in Calgary, when he was getting less TOI overall and on the PP, which would suggest his per minute numbers (if I was bothered to calculate it) probably weren’t that far off. Is he taking more shots but more aren’t finding the target (leaving him with roughly the same SOG totals)? Or has this always been an issue?
Thanks again for coming by.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 14, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
1. it’s possible that i was blinded (like the masses) with dion’s flashy hits and bullet shots in his calder-nominated rookie season and that he was as brutal in his own zone as he is now… i’ve often blamed his D-partner for the goals against (cause anders eriksson is pathetic and hamrlik ain’t exactly a juggernaut) but maybe it was phaneuf all along…. this year it’s fairly well documented that regehr effin HATED him (my brother’s roommate overheard reggie telling jaybouw, at a restaurant post-game, that he loved it when dion helped “clean the glass with his face”)… it looked to me that they would sometimes elect to not support each other (and therefore the godawful numbers this season)…. as for schenn —in my eye, he’s taken a downturn since dion’s arrival in hogtown, but i could totally be wrong.
2. again, i’m not a “stats guy” (heck, i’m not even a GUY), so bear in mind that my analysis is based on what i watch. i’m fortunate to attend a lot of games so i tend to watch players behind the play (“offscreen”) and i gather a lot of information from that; this is why i saw the emergence of mark giordano a solid six or eight months before anyone else, and why i insisted that both bertuzzi and jokinen were godawful… at any rate, i’m pretty sure the problem is that dion shoots the puck from the point 8/10 times (i’m estimating) that it lands on his stick. he doesn’t wait for a lane to open and he doesn’t walk the line a whole lot —-he just shoots… i don’t remember him doing that even last season…. most of his “cannons” hit shinpads and don’t count in his basic stats, so it’s probably realistically more grim than it looks on the surface…. oh, and “high and wide” was pretty much his nickname in the past four months…
a lot of people around these parts wondered if we got enough for him, but like i said over at mine: the word was out. given another three months to show off his bad habits, he might’ve only gotten us mayers. :P
by walkinvisible on Mar 14, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for dropping by to share your thoughts but please, for the love of eyes, use capitals.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 14, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
understood… but nope, sorry…. that’s my M.O…. caps are for YELLING. ;)
by walkinvisible on Mar 14, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
YOUR MO SUCKS BALLS!
And yes, we take proper spelling, grammar, punctuation, and capitalization very serious around here.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
me especially
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 14, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
hahaha
Not ALL capitals! Just the right ones.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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