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New Blog: Along The Olentangy for Ohio State Fans!

Are we there yet?

Vintage Leafs had this awesome photo of some Banners that I thought would helps us all reminisce about years gone by. (Look at all those cup banners!)

Vintage Leafs had this awesome photo of some Banners that I thought would helps us all reminisce about years gone by. (Look at all those cup banners!)

This season has been like a long, painful car ride where your parents changed the destination once they got you all excited and into the car.  Yup, this summer we were all a-flutter with great defensive signings, the promise of youth, and a new, hot goalie and the promise of playoffs.  Here we are, in the stretch run, and it's a lottery pick that we'll see the Bruins take instead.  All I want to do is be the annoying kid in the back seat repeating "Are we there yet?  Are we there yet?" to Burke, so that I have something to do while we wait for the playoffs to return. 
In the meantime, I did buy that 10 Greatest Games DVD set back in October, so I've decided I should watch some more of those games, to remember our glory years.  There really were some great glory years for Leaf fans, and I have faith that those will come again.  Hopefully soon. 

Links after the jump

Star-divide

  • Tuesday Prospect Report: Nazem Kadri
    Bloge Salming, along with Gus Katsaros, presents a scouting report on Nazem Kadri.  He'll be a big help in getting us back to the playoffs!
  • Toronto Sports Media Pressbox
    TSM would like to introduce you to the pressbox, where he'll discuss the issues of the day facing the Toronto Sports Media.
  • The Birthday Party
    LD has some awesome guests at her birthday party! My favourite part: an appearance by ANGRY MAN IN STREET!
  • Fun in English Class
    Wrap's been bored, it seems, so she's plugged in some hockey players' names into an anagram generator. See what she came up with!
  • Cold Cases: The NHL's other missing items
    DGB has the skinny on other items you can look for, now that Sidney's stick has been retrieved.
  • Quack, Quack, Quack Mr. Calder
    MLHS points out that the Ducks are not helping the depletion of talent on the Marlies' roster.
  • Torontosaurus Rex for Week 21 is …
    MLHS names this weeks Torontosaurus Rex! Do you agree with their selection?
  • Schenn’s Making Strides
    MLHS has a really good article detailing Schenn's continued development this year. I guess time in the AHL wasn't necessary.
  • TheRealKyper
    Vintage Leafs has an awesome photo of Kyproes for you to look at the next time he's annoying you while blathering away on the Sportsnet panel. As usual, it's not the only new photo, so go take a look at what else is new.

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More from Pension Plan Puppets

Dog Days

Aug 2010 by birky - 95 comments

2010 Maple Leafs Annual Is For Sale

Aug 2010 by PPP - 100 comments

Filling in the Holes

Jul 2010 by SkinnyFish - 366 comments

2010 Free Agency: What The Leafs Need

Jun 2010 by PPP - 431 comments

2009-2010 Nazem Kadri

Jun 2010 by Chemmy - 96 comments

Comments

Display:

It’s gonna be fun when we start winning lots again.

The Luck of the Irish Leaf: Because when the Irish are short on luck, at least there's tons of booze.

by seankelly on Mar 16, 2010 8:19 AM EDT reply actions  

What the hell?
Goalie ‘could have been dead’ after fan attack
 
Former Avalanche netminder Vitaly Kolesnik beaten with his own stick during KHL playoff game in Russia

Link.

by general borschevsky on Mar 16, 2010 8:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Crazy

Here’s video as well. Looks like the dude had easy access to the bench really. Only a small gate separating him from the bench.

The Luck of the Irish Leaf: Because when the Irish are short on luck, at least there's tons of booze.

by seankelly on Mar 16, 2010 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

It must be tough for north americans to head over to russia to play when they see things like this happening, although the money is better

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Mar 16, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's all risk and return

Risk: A random fan may bash your head in.
Return: More Rubles.

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Mar 16, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or if you collapse on the ice they might drag you off in a tarp.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

i heard somewhere (cant remember where) that the team would be forced to pay a huge fine or be forced to play a home game with no fans in the stands.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Mar 16, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t an argentinian soccer league have to finish a season in front of empty stadiums because the violence was so bad or something? I remember hearing about that.

Either way, I’m for not letting fans in for a game.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its a vicious cycle

The Vodka causes the angry fans, but taking away the Vodka would only make them angrier.

Phaneuf Phever, an upgrade in skill and alliteration!

by Shield on Mar 16, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Playoffs!!!1

Eventually. Right?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 8:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Don’t ever change.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I already can’t wait until next season.

Playoffs!!!!1

(This is a recording.)

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

and dont forget
Baseball!!!!1

Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 16, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I love eyebleaf’s cameo appearances. They invariably brighten my day.

Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell

by bkblades on Mar 16, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Recced

Because it makes me sad.

Here’s to the youngster’s developing, the veterans staying healthy, and good free agent signings this summer! It’s before noon, but I think it’s worth the swig of the scotch I’ve got in my desk.

by Peter de Chatham on Mar 16, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

reccing this for eyebeleaf

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

holy shit that is amazing….

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not crying, it’s the onions!

Proud supporter of Leafs/Flames trades since 1991.

by Sergei Puckizin on Mar 16, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec’ing this, just because!

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

This team better get good soon, my beer budget has exploded this season.

by Jo4nny on Mar 16, 2010 10:04 AM EDT reply actions  

College Free Agent stuff

Hey guys.

Does anyone know if Burke is planning to target any more College Free Agents? Who are the top guys available this year? At least he’s got the advantage of convincing them they’ll be playing in the NHL pretty soon, if they make it.

Is there a website that tracks NCAA free agents?

by Peter de Chatham on Mar 16, 2010 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

The frozen four hasn’t happened yet, so players on the best teams that aren’t drafted aren’t leaving their teams just yet.

http://www.westerncollegehockeyblog.com/ is a good resource for all things WCHA, though.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I saw a link to this article over at St. Louis Game Time, shows the top 10 college free agents gaining NHL interest

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Mar 16, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

wow thanks

I hope Burke manages to sign a couple of the top Senior-year this year, maybe Blair Riley and Bobby Butler – big guys who can drive to the net, that sort of thing.

by Peter de Chatham on Mar 16, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Scott Cullen ranks the top 30 NCAA prospects on TSN, and updates the list monthly I believe. Some are signed, but still a decent list of players available at all positions.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Blake Kessel

rated 20th. This team needs more hackey players. Even if he’s Brent Gretzky.

A good PK is Club Truculence's cover charge

by pevans on Mar 16, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Butler sounds like exactly the kind of player Burke would target.

by Huey2k2 on Mar 16, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I saw a news item that Butler was basically signed by someone else.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is unfortunate

by Huey2k2 on Mar 16, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Wild?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

just picked up Casey Wellman, but I’d take this Butler kid too.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Boston. It’s the Bruins who are hard after Butler.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

For it.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate Boston. This year more than ever, thanks to the exploits of freaking Rask, and that tiny matter of, you know, having our first-rounder.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

and our other first rounder… and our 2nd rounder…

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

See? Those bastard Bruins.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still like you, eyebleaf

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s nothing personal. I have a lot of time for you, my good man. Just not your team.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bruins will use our pick for the 2nd or 3rd over all player… and then have their own pick for the 5th or 6th over all…

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, our usual strategy is to be last in, first out of the playoffs and end up with the 15th-overall pick or so and get somebody only moderately useful.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

better start winning some games, buckko

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, about that…

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

We’re similar. We like to get as close as possible to #8, just miss out, and draft someone completely useless with a mid-range pick. And when we do find a gem, like Rask, we trade him for Raycroft.

I love this team.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

sigh…high-five

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

<3

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

College free agents we should pursue:

Cody Reichard – G – Miami
Stephane da Costa – F – Merrimack, leads Hockey East in rookie scoring as a 20 y/o. Ink him and send him to the Marlies.

http://www.nesn.com/2010/03/merrimacks-stephane-da-costa-clearly-the-cream-of-the-crop-among-hockey-east-rookies.html

A lot of those other guys (Butler) are tiny.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought da Costa promised his parents he’d get a degree or something like that.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

He can finish college when he’s 40 and a millionaire.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think Shaq got rich playing in Orlando?
No, he got rich playing in college, everyone knows that

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

HAHAHA

Oh Neon.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

#24 - Stephane Da Costa

Position: F
Year: Fr.
Hometown: Paris, France
Last Team: Sioux City (USHL)
Height: 5-11
Weight: 180
Major: Undeclared Arts
Shoots/Catches:R

Can you get a degree in Undeclared Arts?

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Mar 16, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Year: Fr.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Universities do have Summer Terms.

He can finish his courses in the off season.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have only one thing to say

If you need another reason to cheer for the leafs tonite:

Leafs sit at 58 points

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 11:28 AM EDT reply actions  

wooo

Go Leafs!

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is a nice sentiment but tonight is Guaranteed Loss Night.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Awww Chemmy, you know we love you

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hope your guarantees are as foolproof as Alfredsson’s.

Proud supporter of Leafs/Flames trades since 1991.

by Sergei Puckizin on Mar 16, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

GO LEAFS GO!

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leafs need a RW or two to play behind Kessel.

In particular – someone who can potentially play on the 2nd line with Grabs and Stalberg next year. I’m partial to someone with experience and solid play at both ends of the ice.

What do you think?

(conversation starter)

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

MARLEAU!!!1

In all seriousness, I’m not sure who on RW is available this summer. I’m also not sure it needs to be someone who plays the same position as Kessel, but we do need another offensive threat to take some pressure off him. But there’s not much out there.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Marleau’s old and expensive. We talk about this on the podcast this week but if I’m Burke I’d consider grabbing every cheap vet on the market and letting the kids all play soft minutes in the AHL.

Money quote from Ken Holland: “We don’t develop talent in the NHL.”

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t see that happening. That’s a heck of a lot of vets we’d need to sign this summer.
Marleau is a pipe dream, he doesn’t fit what we need at all, and I can’t imagine any circumstances in which he’d actually become a Leaf next year. But I still love him and will continue to yell his name anytime someone talks about UFAs.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t mean good vets.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

still too many players. What, are we gonna bring back Boyd Devereaux?
It just seems to me that Burke’s turned a corner by letting the kids play so much in the NHL this year. Why would he take that away from them now?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because he can take that away and throwing young kids to the wolves has never worked ever for anyone.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

sure but how many vets do you want to sign?
Though I would agree, Hanson and Stalberg would probably benefit from more AHL time, I would be fine with sending them down.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

As many as we can.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t we do that this year?

by Leaf in Habland on Mar 16, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

not up front.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

cheap vet

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t want to steal from the uber-fantasticness that is this week’s upcoming podcast, but Hanson and Bozak won’t be waiver exempt next season. That means where they start (Leafs of Marlies) is likely where they’ll stay. I can’t see either of them not making the club out of camp.

Stalberg is waiver exempt and could go up or down depending on how he’s playing.

Kadri better not see remotely close to 10 NHL games next year. Kid should play 25 minutes a night for the Marlies for one or two years.

The rest of the kids (D’Amigo, Champagne, Aulie, Hayes, Blaker, Stefanovich, Mikus, Frattin, etc.) can fight for ice time with the Marlies.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of those kids are going back to CHL/NCAA next season. (D’Amigo and Frattin immediately come to mind.)

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

The NCAA kids will go back to school likely until they graduate.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

meh, I don’t care where they play – they shouldn’t even get a sniff of coffee with the Leafs.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

What’s your take on Caputi?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s ok, but I don’t get the love for him. He’s certainly not a great skater or creative with the puck. Have no problem with him on the 3rd or 4th line.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

interesting

I haven’t seen much of him (see yesterday’s FTB).
I think the love comes from him being a local boy who’s jacked to play for us.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find Leaf fans often value/love “effort” more than anything. Lou Franceschetti probably has more admirers among Leaf fans than Alex Mogilny.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Toronto (my original hometown) is a hard working city…unlike Ottawa ( my current hometown) home of lazy public servants who love Jason Spezza. See the connection.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

My feelings for Ottawa are well known: the national capital region should be bulldozed and left fallow so that it can return to a natural state.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d love to drive one of the bulldozers when this project gets started.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha – can we spare my house? Or at least a fair warning so I can return to Toronto?

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know how anyone lives there. It is truly the city that fun forgot.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Different strokes for different folks…it’s not a lot of fun if you enjoy night life, clubbing, bar hopping and the like. If you like green space in the summer and endless outdoor ice surfaces in the winter, it’s definitely worthwhile.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only upside to Ottawa is that it’s close to Montreal.

The rest of it’s attributes can be easily had elsewhere, without the horrid weather and near monocultural work environment.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won’t get into it further, other than to say – Toronto’s green spaces don’t compare to Ottawa’s.

I found nothing like Gatineau park anywhere close to Toronto.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Next time you’re in the GTA, check out the abandoned federal lands in Pickering. A fascinating place.

I’m also an urban guy. Not into the big green space thing unless it involves a cottage, sunshine and beer or vineyards.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Different strokes for different folks.

(also, it’s the lady’s hometown – whom I met when she was living in MTL – great city)

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t you once tell me you rarely go north of Eglinton or something like that

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

?

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was a reply to MF. If you click on the up button you can see who the message is directed to

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

ahh yes the vaunted “up” button

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Leafer – I joke that I get nosebleeds north of Lawrence. If it weren’t for hockey, I doubt I’d ever go north of Eglinton.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ahhh that’s what it was. I dont remember the discussion, but you mentioned that.
Also north Toronto is wonderful!

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Define north Toronto.

Define wonderful.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hahaha fair enough. I’m pretty close to Woodbridge/Brampton. I love being able to drive somewhere and having a parking lot and not worrying about where I’m going to park. Also less pedestrians is pretty awesome

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

We don’t own a car. I walk or cycle everywhere and make my kids do the same.

Anyplace with setbacks, lack of sidewalks, or that is primarily designed for the car is not for me.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

non-sequitor

did you get a chance to check out that site i fwd’d you?

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok that make total sense then

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are plenty of guys who have succeeded at the NHL level and were not known as great skaters or flashy puckhandlers

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is too easy

There are plenty of guys who have failed at the NHL level and were not known as great skaters or flashy puckhandlers.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

so whether or not he’s a good skater or puckhandler is irrelevant then

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it's germane

He’ll have a long summer to work on the former, the latter is probably not something he can improve but it’s not a big part of his game anyway.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t be obtuse.

Think of it in terms of probability. The better the skater, the greater the odds of success.

Caputi is not a strong skater, therefore the greater the odds of him not panning out.

Exceptions don’t prove the rule.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Asking out of ignorance!

How hard is it to improve your skating? It doesn’t sound like it’d be hard….and yet many people seem to struggle with it.

Why can’t they just like skate around with like 70 pounds of weights attached to their body and get faster that way and then be even faster when they skate without them. Or is that being silly?

I just don’t get it!

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why can’t they just like skate around with like 70 pounds of weights attached to their body and get faster that way and then be even faster when they skate without them. Or is that being silly?

They do do that among other things but some things just can’t be improved. It’s the same way that no amount of work can make some soccer players faster runners.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not just about speed. It’s about sharper cuts, stopping instead of curling, being able to accelerate quickly.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

And doing this while stickhandling and avoiding stickchecks, bodychecks and headchecks.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Balance more than speed is the issue.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Caputi has played, what, 7 games with the Leafs? Color me unsurprised that he hasn’t set the world on fire yet. Don’t think he’s a bad skater. Seems to be fairly balanced on his skates. He’s not going to be asked to play a style that requires expert skating anyways.

My argument was that he seems to have a knack for scoring in tight around the net, something that is nearly impossible to teach and translates fairly well at the NHL level.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude has one goal and yet has a “knack” for scoring in tight?

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are other types of scoring maybe?

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

OHL and AHL production would suggest so.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry….I should have put a winky face with that comment ;)

Though yes, he does have a rep for doing that and stats in the minors.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Caputi’s AHL stats aren’t setting the world on fire.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Caputi reminds me a bit of Troy Brouwer. Took a couple of years to develop in the AHL, but is putting together a good season with the Blackhawks right now.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

doesn’t he have 3?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought 2….one with the ’guins and one here.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

NHL.com and Leafs.com show him with 7GP 1G 3 A

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

He played four games with Pittsburgh and scored a goal.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s just with the Leafs

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think MF37 was referencing his time with the Leafs the whole time, I just wasn’t paying attention.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was referencing his time with the Leafs.

2 goals in 11 games isn’t bad (on pace for 15/season) but I can’t see how that’s any evidence of a “knack” for scoring in tight.

Does anyone even know how he scored his lone goal for the Pens?

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s from last year. This year on January 5th Malkin pulled Pavelec out of the cage and fed the puck to Caputi for an empty net tap in.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Caputi’s game is based upon paying a price physically. He scores a lot of his goals from in front of the net, and is more than willing to muck it up in the corners.

- HF

I can’t say that I’ve seen Caputi play much prior to the Leafs, but people who seem to follow the Baby Penguins seem to agree with the above statement.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Preach it brother

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

chicago?

A good PK is Club Truculence's cover charge

by pevans on Mar 16, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this has to be his policy moving forward.
This portion of the season is, A: to see who is ready to stay, Bozak. B: Who needs to be developed: Hanson, maybe stalberg.

I don’t think Burke wants to play the kids if they aren’t ready. He didn’t rush Bobby Ryan, and look how well he turned out.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d leave Bozak up to play with Kessel but it wouldn’t hurt to return Stalberg and Hanson to the AHL. Sign some NCAA UFAs to play down there, sign some old fucking nobodies to play for the Leafs and hope we can flip them for anything at all.

I’d be ok with Gustavsson in the AHL too.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m ok with this plan.

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

We’ll be a lottery team either way barring a miracle. Might as well realize that and do what’s best for our future and ignore that we don’t have a draft pick.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man I hope we can trade for a first rounder next year and we can cheer like fucking crazy for that team to completely tank!

/not holding my breath

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

even if we had a lottery pick, we know the Leafs would never win the 1st overall.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Teh NYI model (somewhat) sign Doug Weight as an UFA for a one season, cheap contract and then deal him at the deadline…I like it. Aging UFA’s should love it.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Owen Nolan’s still playing…

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

please no

and I thought I heard rumours that the Wild wanted him back?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No clue, don’t pay attention to rumors if I can help it.

But he did lead them in goals 2 years ago.

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

update: last year.

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah crazy, eh?
He won’t ever be coming back to Toronto, though.
(Wouldn’t want him, either)

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

The most important thing in the entire world is going to be shielding Nazem Kadri from the Leafs. Hopefully he takes an overage season and then hits the Marlies in 11-12 before debuting in 12-13 for the Leafs.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Kadri’s playing for the Marlies next year.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

If he’s not touching 200 pounds he should stay in the OHL.

If he doesn’t burn a year of his ELC by overaging there’s no reason to bring him to the AHL.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless he stops growing as a player and starts developing bad habits.

I think I’d rather him being challenged at the next level, and getting developed by Toronto personnel on a daily basis.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about 195lbs?

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can we really delay another year of his ELC by an overage season? I thought you could only slide the ELC by one year. If you go to capgeek you’ll see that next to Kadri’s name you have “SR”, meaning his contract can slide if he doesn’t play 11 NHL games. Stefanovich however—drafted one year earlier—doesn’t have SR even though he played in the Q this year. In other words, we burned a year of Stefanovich’s ELC this year and will presumably do the same with Kadri next year no matter where he plays.

I don’t think Kadri has more to learn in the O and should be with the Marlies next year (with maybe spot appearances with the Leafs since he’s waiver exempt and could learn what he needs to work on from a game here or there).

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I thought the consensus was that because he’s signed his ELC, he can’t play next year in the OHL as an overager?

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Mar 16, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. Pietrangelo signed his deal and has been sent back twice, I believe

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

CapGeek has his EL deal expiring in 2012, which would make this Year 1.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not saying that’s right, just that’s what they’re saying.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he goes back to the OHL, his ELC is postponed for another season. It’s not if he plays in the AHL

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you sure?

Capgeek are pretty good. And they have Stefano burning yr 1 of his ELC this year, which means Kadri will next year.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aren’t ELC’s postponed in the AHL too? Isn’t that why the Penguins didn’t keep Marc-Andre Fleury up his first year?

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, AHL counts for an ELC. That’s how they get paid.

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Mar 16, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I just checked…..Fleury was loaned to the Q anyway. And it was be cause of a 3 million dollar bonus (even though he offered to forfeit it)

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

loaned = sent back

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

this I am 100% in agreement on. He cannot be on the Leafs next year.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I cant see Kadri playing another year in the O. I can see him being the top line center on the Marlies tho.
Question: Is Cody Hodgson an overager?

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree… I’m all for shielding Kadri for as long as possible, but I don’t see how it’s possible to leave him in the O for another year. He’s good enough that another year of junior wouldn’t develop him and would be a waste of time. Give him lots of playing time in all situations on the Marlies, that’s how we’ll develop him as a bonafide top NHL forward.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kadri isn’t eligible for another year of Junior, if I recall correctly.

by unavoidable on Mar 16, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t find anything in the rule book about playing 5 years

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would be dependant on his age. I can’t be bothered to look up the cutoff date.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ken Holland ≠ Brian Burke

And the Toronto Maple Leafs will never ≠ the Detroit Red Wings.

Put another way, what works for one, may not work for another. If it was as easy as Holland makes it out to be with that cute sound bite, every team would be copying him, right?

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

everything needs to be evaluated market-by-market

Also, if everyone wanted a perennial playoff team and a cup winning team every 5 years or so, everyone should be copying Lou…

Hard to compare GMs – apples and oranges.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like apples.

And oranges.

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PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, the kids we’re talking about being on the team next year are 22-25.

It’s not like we’re trying to rush Kadri & D’Amigo. Hell, I would go so far as to say that having Caputi, Stalberg and Hanson up with the Leafs next year is the best reason why we WON’T rush Kadri and the other 19-20 year olds.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

D’Amigo should start in the A, just like Boners for Bozak did.

As much as I’d love to see Kadri play everyday already, it’s probably best he starts in the AHL. But if he rips up camp like Stalberg did, sure, let him make the team. Reward hard work.

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by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

D'Amigo

will play another year in the NCAA like Hayes has been.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent. This is why I love you, Steve.

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by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

at least another year, he’s a rookie this year and apparently plans on finishing his degree.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the Kadri thing

I sincerely expect him to play a full year in the AHL with about 20 or so games in the NHL following the deadline.

If he’s ridiculously good out of camp… then he’s with the Leafs, but I’d rather see him in the AHL getting top line minutes.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree 100%

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed x2

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Kadri comes into camp and shows he belongs, than he should stay. Wilson told him to go back and rip up the OHL, which he did. Burke told him he needs to add weight, which he has started and will continue to do.

If he’s ready, he’s ready. And if not, then he’s not.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you all read the link

I posted below…

you’ll see the Leafs don’t have as big a problem with top line scoring as we thought we would.

The Leafs current top line is scoring at the same pace as Downie, Stamkos, and St. Louis, and they’re better defensively.

That’s at the same rate as the 3rd leading goal scorer and a former NHL MVP… let’s relax on our concerns with point production and worry more about goaltending and whether or not to keep Komisarek.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

and getting rid of Finger, and what the heck they are going to do with kaberle

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

re-sign him.

simple, bra.

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by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trade him

please. We need his return more than we need him.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe that ship has sailed. And all this trade talk hasn’t exactly brought out the best in him. Re-sign him in the summer, give him the stability he desires, let him be a Leaf for life, and powerplay the quarterback as this team returns to respectability. There is a lot of good hockey left in him; a fuck-tonne of incredible cross ice passes, like you wouldn’t fucking believe, remain on that stick.

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by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’d have to sign on the cheap – and I doubt Burke will give him a NTC

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are we a worse team without Tomas Kaberle? I don’t think so. Not with Phaneuf in the mix. He’s a luxury the team doesn’t have much need for. I am 100% certain he’s traded this summer.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well that’s certainly a convincing argument against letting talent develop and not rushing it into a market that looks at its AHL prospects under a microscope.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not saying “rush talent” I’m saying the Leafs aren’t Detroit.

Just wondering, If the “Detroit model” is that simple, why doesn’t every other GM employ it?

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because you can’t spend 60-70M on a foundation that allows you to develop prospects slowly anymore?

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Leafs are Detroit in one fashion: They don’t need to rush their kids.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

so are 20+ other franchises.

There’s more than one way to build a team, and employing a blanket statement/sound bite as the go-to slogan is simple minded.

Sign the best players available, at the right price. If it’s a 22 year old NCAA FA, or a 34 yr old UFA, shouldn’t matter. If they can play in the NHL, let them play. Nowhere in there does it say “rush the kids.”

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was anyone here saying we shouldn’t sign young players if available?

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not simple minded. It’s a philosophy that suggests that kids should play in the NHL when they are ready to contribute at the NHL level and not in an effort to get them to that level.

If they can play in the NHL, let them play.

Yeah, that’s the point. If they cannot play in the NHL then they do not play in the NHL.

And no, 20+ other franchises do not have the benefit of being able to be patient.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are saying rush talent actually. If you weren’t saying rush talent you’d agree that we need to find some warm bodies who will sign short deals to fill the holes in our lineup created by not rushing our talent.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s a difference between asking 23 year olds to play in your top 6 and asking 19 year olds to do it.

Everyone we’re debating whether they belong in the NHL or AHL next season is in their 20s and has at least 1 full season of pro hockey. At this point, we’re not “rushing talent”, we’re seeing what talent we have.

“Rushing talent” would be pencilling Kadri and D’Amigo into the lineup next year, which nobody is doing.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

All 23 year olds are not created equal. Just because some of our guys is a little older doesn’t change the fact that they’re inexperienced and could use more development as players.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

and that doesn’t mean the Leafs have to move players down to the Marlies because that’s what Detroit does.

If Stalberg, Hanson or even Kadri shows up to camp and proves they belong in the NHL, then so be it. There’s just as much of a danger in stunting a players development by having him play lesser competition as there is if he’s rushed.

By the replies I’m getting, it appears you all think this is a big deal to me, but for the record it’s not, just my two cents. Doesn’t matter either way, just don’t think Kenny Holland is the be-all-end-all of GMs. For every Datsyuk and Zetterberg there’s a Butsaeyev and McGillis. I’d rather see the Leafs develop players at whatever level is needed for them is all…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re talking past us.

If Stalberg, Hanson or even Kadri shows up to camp and proves they belong in the NHL, then so be it.

That’s what we are saying too. It’s not sending the kids to the AHL just because Detroit does it, it’s because Detroit does it and it works.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stalberg and Hanson scream “marginal NHLer” right now. They show promise but there’s a lot they need to work on.

The place for them to work on it isn’t the Leafs.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the question should be:

What is the best way to optimize the play of Stalberg, Hanson, Caputi? Is it by giving them getting 10 to 15 minutes a night, mostly at ES in Toronto? Or, playing 20+ minutes a night in all situations with the Marlies?

For Hanson and Stalberg, I’d suggest it’s at least starting with the Marlies.

For Bozak, I think the bigger question is: can he develop his defensive side of the game while playing in the NHL?

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

definitely the best way to word any players development approach.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah that’s pretty accurate

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The important part is the assessment of your players/ talent, by the GM/Coach/Etc..

Being able to assess whether they need more time in the minors, or if they are in fact NHL ready – i.e. ready to meet their potential as NHL’ers. Also- what is there potential? These are tough decisions to make, I’m glad I get to do it from my couch.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

the quote is
"We don’t develop talent in the NHL."

To me, that feels like a blanket statement, and is quite frankly untrue. The two players everyone likes to tout as homegrown Detroit talent (Datsyuk and Zetterberg) never spent a single season in the AHL.

They were developed in other leagues while DET held their rights, but then brought over here, signed and thrown right into the NHL.

I apologize because it really isn’t that big a deal. I’ll just stop commenting, didn’t mean to thread jack this into a theoretical discussion about management disciplines…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you’re right on this. Datsyuk especially, he started playing in a defensive role first and learned the north american game in the NHL.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not a threadjack

So no reason to run away.

They were developed in other leagues while DET held their rights

So they were not developed in the NHL.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not running away, just think it’s kind of pointless.

We’re essentially arguing the same point, in that we all agree players should be developed properly and not rushed. However that plays out is irrelevant.

It’s the Cult of Ken Holland that I disagree with. If you were to ask a followup to his “we don’t develop…” statement, inquiring where the team did its developing, would he say “we don’t develop our own players, we leave them in Europe and hope to God they pan out” because that’s essentially what was done with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Long story short, he got lucky. If either of those two developed along a similar arc of 6th and 7th rounders, what would Detroit have?

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

This times a million.

We don’t develop our prospects in the NHL… cause we have like 8 Hall of Famers
- Ken Holland

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Long story short, he got lucky.

Buffalo follows a similar development path and they seem to get lucky a lot too. Maybe we invest in horse shoes?

As for Zetterberg and Datsyuk, if Holland thought that they were in bad hands where they were they probably would have done an internship in the AHL like so many of their other players.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

New Jersey must get lucky too.

Seems teams that give their kids development time have all sorts of luck.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

they also have one thing few other teams do

First ballot sure fire HOFers.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

What difference does that make?

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

A big one.

Good teams don’t play young kids because those suck compared to their good players. =P

It has nothing to do with development.

Fedorov played immediately when he came over. He didn’t spend any time in the minors.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Federov was 21 when he joined the Wings. He turned 22 in his first season with them.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know.

I’m simply saying when your team isn’t as good and you draft a young difference maker that’s can improve your team….teams tend play them =P

See: Ovechkin, Crosby, Hedman, Stamkos … I could go on and on.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

None of our prospects are Stamkos, Crosby or Ovechkin.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

because

we can’t finish last AND keep our draft picks in the same season…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point is that thinking that you have to shelter your young players is silly.

Every player should be assessed individually. Some may respond better to sheltering. Others may respond better to being thrown into the fire.

There’s no one way fits all approach.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re attempting to make the argument that it’s fine to throw our prospects into the fire because Stamkos, Crosby and Ovechkin all did that.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

No I’m making the argument that some prospects respond fine to being thrown into the fire.

Others, like Tavares, don’t.

It depends on the prospect.

Give Kadri 20 games next year and if he struggles, send him to the Marlies. If he plays well, there’s no reason to send him down.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Theodles – I think you have to get beyond whether a team is good or bad and simply ask: What is the best development route for player x.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could care less about whether a team is good or bad.

I was simply explaining to Chemmy why teams like Detroit stuff their players in the minors.

It’s not because it’s better for their development, but because their teams are awesome and they wouldn’t have any playing time for their draft picks.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do you know what development philosophy Detroit would pursue if they were devoid of top line talent?

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Care to elucidate?

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Foligno, Yzerman, Primeau, Fedorov,

Supremely talented offensive players are rarely ever left in the minors when a team is struggling.

It’s just a fact of hockey. =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mike Foligno was drafted in 1979, prior to the current Red Wings brain trust being in place.

Yzerman was a 4th overall draft pick. I think we’re all agreed that there are exceptions and most of them are found at the very top of the draft class.

Fedorov didn’t play in the NHL until he was 21.

That leaves Primeau as one example in 25 years.

I don’t see how one player in 25 years can be cited as “past history” when descibing a team’s philosophy towards player development.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

4 players. I listed 4. =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of your four players, only one stands up to any scrutiny.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually all four do.

All four were top tier offensive talents who were “rushed” into the league to help a struggling team.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually no they don't

because Primeau was taken 3rd overall… higher than Yzerman.

So yeah… still got the same problem.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um, the question remains – how do we know what Detroit would do with players if they didn’t have top end talent.

I said it couldn’t be answered.

You said, based on past history, the team would play the kids.

I asked you to elucidate and you named four guys, one of whom was drafted under a completely different administration.

I don’t mean to be a dick, but I don’t see how any can think a player drafted 30 years ago can be cited as evidence against a 25 year old administration.

Federov was 21 and had played several years in the equivalent to a developmental league.

That makes you 0 for 2.

Yzerman was the class of the draft, and – as many have stated – development isn’t usually an issue with the top most draft picks.

You are now 0 for 3.

That leaves Primeau, who I agree should have likely been given an extra year or two to develop.

What I don’t see is how Keith Primeau going right into the NHL , one single player in 25 years, answers a question about what the Wings development philosophy might be if they weren’t stacked with talent.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

So basically your response to my argument that top tier talent doesn’t wait on the shelf in the minors is that:

“They’re top tier. It doesn’t count!”

Gotcha!

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re either an idiot or playing dumb.

I’m going to guess it’s the latter.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

No you’re an idiot because you fail to grasp the basic point.

Top tier drafted talent plays for struggling team.

You can try to come up with moronic excuses for why those players played (the Yzerman one was particularly bad), but the end result is the same. Top tier talent plays.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Step back over that line you crossed, pal

I would watch your tone when speaking to a well-respected member of the blog.

=p

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

He crossed it first =D

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think both could stand to take it down a notch. I don’t think either of you are actually that far apart.

Let’s all agree if Kadri is Stevie Y re-incarnate he can play with the Leafs next year. Otherwise let’s wait and see.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

he also never called you an idiot

You’re either an idiot or playing dumb.

I’m going to guess it’s the latter.

…………

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Never said he did.

I said he crossed the line first. =)

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The way that sentence is structured made me think otherwise.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your reading comprehension is astounding.

I think I’m going to have to change my initial guess.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

dude, your emoticons are killing me

Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?

by JaredFromLondon on Mar 16, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

second.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

thirded

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Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

the idea that you can shelter the kids easier?
I dunno.
Frankly the only thing that scares me is Burke and Wilson’s assertions that they can’t do a slow rebuild in Toronto, for whatever reason. I don’t want to risk the kids to be competative because that’s what the Teachers want.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would not having hall of famers mean you can’t shelter the kids?

The ACC is going to sell out even if the Leafs run out a team of cheap washed up vets next year.

Toronto has the luxury of being able to lose games to shelter their youth to win in the future. Most other markets don’t.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes but both Burke and Wilson have expressed many times this year that they can’t just lose games and draft slowly – think back to when LA was here and Wilson commended them on the rebuild job they’ve done.
We’re not doing that. I don’t know why, but we’re not, and that’s the only thing that has me worried.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

We’re not doing it that way because it doesn’t get you a Cup, and small market teams have no choice but to delude themselves into thinking that it does.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea

it sure didn’t work for Pittsburgh.
No siree, not at all.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

So basically our new plan is to wait for a season-long lockout to drop the best player in a generation into our laps. Gotcha.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah that’s what I said.
Crosby didn’t win it on his own. They also needed Malkin, Fleury, Gonchar, Talbot, Letang etc.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know it’s not.

But the pro-tanking argument is mortally wounded by the fact that it’s only success story was gifted its best player.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

only success story yet

The Blackhawks, Capitals and Kings have all benefitted greatly from this method as well.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

And they have as many Cups as we do to show for it.

Until somebody else wins the Cup with a foundation built on tanking, I’m going to doubt its validity.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's fair enough

I just think that there’ll be a second team doing it soon enough.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Washington

and Chicago

and the KINGS

have all benefitted from a lot more than just tanking…

they had to sign free agents, and make a lot of trades… to get to where they are.

Their top end talent was a result of “tanking” but as I’ve pointed out in the past, sucking for 15+ years doesn’t guarantee you anything.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah of course tanking isn’t the sole course of action required for a cup. The Leafs also didn’t need to suck for 15+ years. What worries me is that Burke and Wilson seem to have been told that they have to rebuild as fast as they can, rather than doing whatever their own plan may be.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

See ottawa?

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Holland thought Zetterberg and Datsyuk were going to develop into +$5M a year first liners, he’d have drafted them in the first round…

He got lucky.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you’re confusing luck with the draft with an organization wide development philosophy.

I can’t name the last Wing prospect that’s played with that team as 19 or 20 year old.

Lucky to draft them? Absolutely.

Luck to develop them by keeping them out of the NHL? I don’t think so

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regardless of luck at the draft table Detroit gives its prospects time to be coached and develop by sheltering them from the NHL.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

they had the luxury of sheltering them because they had a ridiculously stacked team with the highest payroll in the league for Z and D’s ‘formative’ years.

Z and D turning into studs as well has afforded them a similar luxury with guys like franzen, etc.

A couple of years of Detroit missing the playoffs or making a first round exit, and their development philosophy may be forced to change.

Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.

by daoust on Mar 16, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

But at the same time the Leafs have the luxury of not having to win RIGHT NOW.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

ha, you beat me to it. i was just going to add something to that effect.

detroit had some luck involved in how their development environment turned out, but i do agree that generally you’re better of developing kids in the minors. given the leafs state of affairs, there’s probably no big rush to have kids up here. that is, until the season ticket sales start droppping.

that being said, developing in the minors is no guarantee either, obviously. fucking tlusty, i had high hopes for you man!

Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.

by daoust on Mar 16, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve said it before, the only way the Leafs season ticket base starts dwindling is if corporations can no longer write 50% of the cost off.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Further to Blurr's point (I think)

One reason Detroit has not send any kids directly (or quickly) to the NHL since the lockout is they haven’t drafted anyone good. Seriously, from 2005-present their draft picks total 49 NHL games. And I’m not aware of any that are hot-shot prospects being sheltered. They just aren’t very good, as a group. This has been covered elsewhere by others in detail (daoust?).

The Wings could develop guys overseas or in the A pre-lockout because they had a roster full of HOFers and All-Stars that simply isn’t possible in a cap world. They have been sheltered from the effects of their poor draft picks the last couple years because Datsyuk and Zetterberg are worth so much more than they’re paid but the piper (e.g. Marian Hossa, Jiri Hudler) is now demanding to be paid.

It’s rather smug and self-congratulatory for Holland to say “we don’t develop guys in the NHL” but nowadays that’s the cap efficient thing to do in many cases. It would frankly be retarded, for example, to have Brett Hull or Luc Robitaille on the 3rd line making $5MM each.

This doesn’t mean I want to rush our guys forward. I agree every developmental case needs to be made individually. I just think Holland’s a little bit (just a little bit—full respect for the Cups etc.) full of shit and resting on past glories. Also remember Jimmy Devellano assembled the core of the first 3 Cup teams and the 4th was largely enabled by the Zetterberg/Datsyuk phenomenon.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would frankly be retarded, for example, to have Brett Hull or Luc Robitaille on the 3rd line making $5MM each.

That’s why it’s a tough one to do post-cap and why it puts pressure on Burke to find bargains but it doesn’t make it impossible.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup

The difficult with implementing the “Detroit Model” is that the most ready source of bargains is kids on ELC or RFA contracts.

Especially if you’re talking about Top 6 F/Top 4 D talent.

I’m fine leaving the kids in the A for next year as long as we don’t commit to any long-term contracts for mediocre vets but when you want to compete, you need people outperforming their contracts. It’s almost impossible to find players other than kids that can do that.

Interesting note: Jiri Fischer played 52 games for Detroit as a 19 year old.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

But the kids aren’t going to take us to the playoffs next year.

Our plan should be to develop what meager resources we have using the two things we have a lot of: money and season ticket holder support.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well put

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree which is why next year’s a write off, I agree. But in a cap world there’s usually a window of 5 years or so when you have cost controlled talent. That window for us opens in 2011/12 and I don’t want to waste years when Schenn/Kadri/Bozak/Stalberg/Caputi/Gunnar/Hanson/whoever else makes it, are all cost controlled.

Maybe we don’t disagree. I would keep anyone in the A next year who has not proven they are ready for the NHL. I would sign pump and dumpers. I would NOT sign any vet to more than a one year deal unless it’s Kessel/Phaneuf level talent, because we’ve got just as good talent coming up for cheap.

I also don’t think we’re sufficiently considering waiver issues.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

And look at what the pressure did to his heart

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

hahaha

zing

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Det could do it because they had a great HOF line up.

The Leafs can do it, because they don’t have to win now (to sell tickets, impress their fanbase).

I like these arguements.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

What the people lack … is proof that sheltering every prospect in the minors actually helps the development of every prospect.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt it would HURT

any prospects… which is the converse argument.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you can point out a player

that was worse because they played in the AHL.. that would be interesting.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

But can you point out a player who was worse because they played in the NHL?

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Too soon?

Jamie Lundmark?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is he proof. =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Justin Pogge?

I’m sure we can come up with more.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pogge’s shot in the NHL came after a lot of AHL time.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

But probably not enough

and now he’s in the ECHL or something…

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again…how is he proof?

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

All you’re showing is that players played poorly in the NHL.

That doesn’t constitute proof that those player performed poorly because of that NHL time.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok Patrik Stefan?

I mean are you seriously denying that players are ever rushed to the NHL?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again…can you prove that Patrik Stefan performed worse BECAUSE of his time in the NHL

I’m not asking for prospects who performed poorly in the NHL.

I’m looking for proof.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

hahahahaha

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

really, though, unless you’ve got a time machine you can’t prove anything except by looking at how similar players did in different situations.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yay! hugs Cornelius

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Proof is something that never really exists

in this situation.

ON EITHER SIDE… so stop asking for something you can’t have.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re really bad at hypothetical debates; this is Anton Stralman all over again.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rather…can you prove he was worse =)

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously not

since this whole argument is completely absent of proof on either side, it’s all sort of a moot point.

Different philosophies work… there’s no magic bullet… etc.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can’t really prove it because there’s no way to prove a player would have played better/worse if he had been developed differently, because only one or the other happened.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly

we can’t run an experiment where identical players are given a chance – one in the NHL and one in the AHL… and we get to see the final outcome.

Since we can’t do that… this whole argument is pointless.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Burke probably could have with the Sedins if he really wanted to…

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

not exactly identical players

but yes they are identical twins.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, now we’re getting into “Back to the Future” alternate reality stuff.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, and I hope the one thing we can all agree on is that as a general rule, not playing young players who are not ready to play full time in the nhl can be detrimental to their development. If it wasn’t there wouldn’t be an AHL as it currently exists.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Prospects

do get pushed to the pros too early… there’s a lot of cases of it in every pro sport…

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly! Bingo =P

Neither side can prove is. So arguing about the Detroit method (which they can only pull off because they’re awesome) via other methods is silly X(

That’s waht my point =D

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

awesomely

in 8th place?

I"m still not sure why we’re so high on them when we could be talking about New Jersey… who have only developed superstars because of their AHL system.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, you’re saying Zach Parise is only awesome because he spent one season in the AHL?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

it’s probably because of a lot of things…

I don’t think anyone should be saying anything like all players must play in the AHL…

I think this whole debate is idiotic.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, if you say that we’re saying that they ‘must’ then yeah, it’s idiotic.

Except that’s not what we are saying.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some people are. =P

I advocate a case by case basis.

Some people respond better to playing on easy first and working their way up. Some people see want to play in hard mode first and figure it out as they go along.

People have different preferences when it comes to life. So look at each prospect and see how each responds to wherever you put them.

I don’t know why there needs to be some sort of blanket strategy to cover all prospects.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I don’t think anyone’s saying ALL prospects have to go to the AHL. Just that the ones we have look like they could use that development time.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

bingo

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of them are.

They’ve already made up their minds about players like Kadri. =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

who?

please quote one comment stating ALL our prospects need to be developed in the AHL.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd also say

that development time is an elastic thing.

One player might require 20-30 games, while another might require 2 or 3 seasons.

It’s not as black and white as this is being made out to be, for ANY player, and obviously management realize this.

I’m not sure what the point of all of this is.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right

Let’s shut down discussion on anything related to managment decisions.

No more NCAA questions Steve. Sorry.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Read about the Leafs rookie D back in the 80s. Many said they felt rushed and unprepared for the NHL.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

But development time wouldn’t have taught Benning to skate, McGill to score or Boimistruck to fight. Perhaps they were simply flawed prospects.

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by 1967ers on Mar 16, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think AHL time would have hurt them. Throwing them into the fire certainly didn’t help.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remembe the TSN panel agreeing that they’ve never heard of a prospect that’s been hurt by playing TOO much time in the minors but they know plenty that have been ruined by being too rushed.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just think that scouts and analysts and such overrate some players =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Universally?

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah….it happens =) Sometimes, people are just wrong. Even universally wrong.

Or maybe they just don’t look enough at other variables.

But I mean, hell, even the NFL gets it wrong and they often look at everything there is to look at and every player there has done their “minor” league development.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

actually to refer to the NFL

is an interesting point. Practice Rosters are the NFL equivalent to the AHL…

they have ridiculously large rosters, and developing talent for the NFL is not easy… so players end up in the World League and CFL…

neither of which is truly considered a farm system for the NFL… and yet… I don’t see that conversation happening as often there, over whether players would “benefit” from time outside the highest levels.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn’t college football more the “development league” for the NFL?
Just wondering, i really don’t follow NFL at all.

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by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have to leave college to be drafted by the NFL or NBA.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but Karina is right. College is like the AHL of the NFL except that 3 years are mandatory =). I think it’s 3 years of college…not sure.

Checked…technically it’s 3 years after high school….which amounts to the same thing as 3 years of college for most people.

Honestly, I’m really not sure the AHL serves any purpose for developing offensive talent. If we switched to an NFL philosophy and gave players around 3 years to see if they could do anything in the big leagues, I think we’d see similar results to now.

Defensemen and goaltenders, like quarterbacks seem to take a bit longer to develop.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Players with offensive talent spend time in the minors to work on other parts, like their defensive game. If someone is offensively gifted, that might not need work – but there is more to the game than offense and all that.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure….or they develop it in the majors like Mogilny =P

There’s no rule that it has to be done in the AHL and/or can only be done in the AHL.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

No certainly not…ther is no hard fast rule.
And with all the Leafs resources, they should be able to individually assess each prospects needs

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s what I’m hoping for =)

I think Kadri can develop a defensive game in the NHL as easily as he can in the AHL. So if he can play offense in the bigs, might as well let him play.

One of the main advantages of the AHL is that you can give players the ice time they need to develop.

But if we’re already resigned to sucking, we can afford to give Kadri ice time up here =)

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Worried about injuries if he’s not physically ready to play in the NHL

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. But we’ll see how much he weighs when camp rolls around. =)

He’s anywhere from 177-187 according to whatever report you believe. =)

If he can get to 190ish by training camp, I’d be happy with that.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

College is nothing like the AHL because the teams have no control over the development of the players.

College football and basketball is much closer to the equivalent of the CHL.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s equivalent in the sense of the age of the players and the level of competition. =)

College is pretty much the next best thing to the NFL (no offense to the CFL).

Obviously the teams have little control in terms of player development.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really.

College players are generally 19-24; AHL players can be anywhere from 20 to apparently 48 (Chelios).

NHL teams do have control over player development in the AHL to a degree because the AHL affiliate staff normally works in conjunction with NHL staff, and the NHL team can re-assign the player. College football players don’t have to answer to anyone in the NFL.

And next best thing isn’t the same as developmental league. Next best thing is if you can’t play here, you go here. An NFL washout can’t go back to college. An NHLer can go back to the AHL.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not talking about old AHL players who have little chance of making the NHL though. =P

Most AHL prospects who have a shot at the bigs are around the age of college players. There may be a few older ones….but I mean if you’re older than 26-28 and in the AHL, you might want to think about life after hockey. =)

Umm….I agreed with you that NHL teams have control in the AHL (with the exception of the Ducks maybe), so….you’re preaching to the choir. =)

I’m well aware. But the next best thing is useful for evaluating talent against the best available competition. The AHL is that for hockey. College is that for the NFL.

If you can’t cut it in the NFL, you don’t go to the next best thing. You work at wal-mart or you go to a league that’s inferior to college. =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Daigle, Alexandre.

Leaf, the universe and everything.

by 1967ers on Mar 16, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is also

because that implies that the minors actually serve the purpose of developing talent… which is something every team is constantly doing anyway… They have to have a reason for their existence, and the NHL probably doesn’t think of it as a way to make money.

The AHL is basically a pool of ALMOST NHL caliber talent that the NHL teams have control over.

A farm system ideally develops players, but the fact that the pro-roster of an NHL franchise extends down into the AHL just means you can explore how much NHL ready talent a team has… you should examine the whole organization from top to bottom… NHL AND AHL… that’s all this is an indication of.

Teams with very little talent have all of it in the NHL and very little in the AHL.

Teams with a lot of talent have some in the AHL and NHL…

some teams have different philosophies about styles of play, and have depth charts fixed by position while others don’t have as concrete a system.

It’s just a larger organizational viewpoint… most people don’t explore things in a way that includes the AHL (while we tend to).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not a simple model …It’ helps if you’re a winning team, don’t have injury problems, and don’t need a great white hope to help sell tickets.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s tough because it puts pressure on your GM to find proven NHLers that can hold the fort but that’s why Burke’s getting paid the big bucks.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually the only important thing is that your team has a GM who can stick to a long term plan and not sacrifice the future for right now if you’re not going to take a shot at the Cup this year.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Double yup

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would Detroit have been able to let all of that talent sit in the AHL if they didn’t have Yzerman, Shanahan, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc for the better part of a decade?

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

THANK YOU!

The “Detroit Model” is a myth. It’s impossible to build a team the exact same way Detroit did in today’s NHL because you can’t accumualte enough talent in the short-term to justify developing all your prospects slowly.

The only to do anything approximating the “Detroit” model is to move out UFAs for young players and hope you continue to pick the right ones. At which point you’re not following Detroit’s method because that’s not what they’ve done.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

The model, insofar that it involves multiple Hall of Famers, is indeed a myth.

The concept of not throwing kids into the NHL before they can handle it is tough to implement but not impossible and the Leafs have both the money and the werewithal to do it.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Leafs don’t really have the money though. They’re only about 6 million under the cap for next season.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

The concept of not throwing kids into the NHL before they can handle it is tough to implement but not impossible and the Leafs have both the money and the werewithal to do it.

This is also a concept that Brian Burke closely adheres to, I’m not sure why it’s called the “Detroit model”

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because Detroit then puts those kid’s names on Stanley Cups.

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

because Getzlaf and Perry don’t have their names… wait.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who was the other guy that invented the lightbulb at the same time as Edison?

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nikola Tesla

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or Westinghouse.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because it’s about to come a crashing halt like everything else in the area?

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

clrkaitken – you may be right about the Detroit model being impossible to replicate, but that doesn’t address whether or not Detroit could have left players to develop elsewhere without a core group of performing veterans.

The question posed by Birky is so hypothetical that I don’t know if it can be answered.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they had a good GM that could fill the gaps without putting kids in? Yes.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

So because we’re bad now we shouldn’t take our time with prospects?

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s not what I’m saying. I’m just pointing out that Detroit hit on a few guys in Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and were able to keep their core from the 90’s-2000’s around before the Cap. I have serious doubts that would have been possible post lockout. It’s a different system now.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope – that’s why it helps to have a winning team

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

If it was as easy as Holland makes it out to be with that cute sound bite…

If the team is interested in developing talent, and puts the long-term goals of the franchise ahead of selling hype, hope and tickets, I would argue it is that easy.

Evander Kane isn’t in the NHL for his own good or to be the best player he can be, he’s in the NHL because the Thrashers need to sell seats and he’s a great story for them.

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by mf37 on Mar 16, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

what’s wrong with Caputi?

Leave the kids alone at the top 6, find vets to augment the bottom 6 and provide a locker room presence.

Kulemin-Bozak-Kessel
Stalberg-Grabovski-Caputi
Sjostrom-Hanson – X
X – Primeau – Orr

Kadri, DiDo, and all the other kids with the Marlies.

I’d seriously have zero problems with that lineup next year

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

hmmm doesn’t look bad…I’d consider Caputi on the second line, too.
My hypothetical FWD line up for next season looks the same (J Mitchell as the 13th forward)

In that case – who fill sout your 2 wild cards, there.

Also the RW part is somewhat a referrence to the lack of rt handed shots at the wing position for the LEafs this season (at the NHL level).

2 youngish UFA’s who shoot right – Colby Armsrong, Marek Svatos…just puttin git out there.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Armstrong will be overpriced, Svatos is trash.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the kind of game Armstrong brings, but I agree he will be overpriced…. plus we don’t really need more 3rd line guys. I think honestly the best thing for this team is to stand pat this off season, try to unload some more salary, and let the kids play next year.

by Huey2k2 on Mar 16, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Colby Armstrong doesn’t bring anything we can’t develop ourselves. Our third and fourth liners need to earn peanuts.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Svatos would be weak, I think, if we get another winger to take pressure off Kessel, they need to be a lot more physical than Kessel. Armstrong’s been bandied about here for a while. I’m not sold on him though.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I’ve heard the name floated around a bit. He seems like the type of UFA Burke would target, not sure it would work. I don’t think it would be a terrible signing at 2.5mill for a 2-3 year term. He would be nice to add to the 3rd/4th lines…and can fill in on the top 2, on an as needed basis. That said, he’d have to come cheap. I guess I’m rationalizing it, before it happens.

Svatos is Trash.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Bertuzzi, No Bertuzzi, Please no Bertuzzi!

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

ooops let me clarify – I was talking about Colby Armstrong there, not Bertuzzi.

Also – No Bertuzzi, No Bertuzzi, Please no Bertuzzi!

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just that Burke has a habit of signing Bertuzzi

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah….really hope that doesn’t happen. I would lose a lot of faith

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

He could mentor Frattin

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bertuzzi has a bad back, I don’t think he should be throwing any furniture off of a Balcony any larger than a 21" TV – max

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

He scared me this year

when it was rumoured he was trying to sign Chris "Giant Douche’ Neil

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brad May – 38 – $500k cap hit

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d take the Hanta virus over Chris Neil

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chris Neil fought Rick Rypien this weekend. And he wasn’t demolished.
I was stunned.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m more stunned that he even fought a heavyweight. Rypien was probably caught by surprise “what, this guy didn’t turtle?”

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did Rypien have both hands tied behind his back? I thought he didn’t lose fights.

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rypien didn’t lose. It’s just that he also didn’t demolish Neil like I thought he would. Neil still went down, though.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

that makes me feel better

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

July 1, 2010

Brian Burke signs Todd Bertuzzi

I think we should accept it might happen.

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by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

DO IT

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PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a hard time believing Bertuzzi would ever want to play in Toronto. Plus, isn’t he like 35? Pass.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Short deal low cap hit pump and dump do it.

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by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d need about 5 showers at least to feel clean again if Bert becomes a Leaf.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the 4th line spot, I’ll say Stephane Veilleux.

Still only 28, he’s made a pretty good career out of being a grinder in Minnesota, pretty strong on the PK, he only makes $750K right now. Veilleux and Sjostrom would be a very good foundation for the PK. Another good option might be trying to bring Adam Mair back.

As for the 3rd line, if Armstrong is too expensive, Taylor Pyatt could be a possibility.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pyatt would be interesting. But no. He has like 9 goals on a much better Phoenix team, he’d do nothing for the Leafs.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very slim pickings on RW. There is a safety net of moving Hanson back to RW and finding a centre (though that’s not better), but Hanson playing pretty well at centre.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s also really really slow, and I’m happy to say – I don’t think he could keep up with the team speed of the Leafs right now.

Isn’t that fantastic? The Leafs have team speed that sluggish grunts like Pyatt and Bertuzzi couldn’t keep up with.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bertuzzi’s not that slow, he’s just lazy.
Well, the same can be said for Pyatt.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Between Veilleux and John Mitchell – I would slot Mitchell in on the 4th line role…Toronto boy playing for his home team and all of those psychological advantages.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although I am not a fan of Mitchell

I really don’t have a problem playing on the 4th line… too bad he can’t outplay Primeau for that 4th line centre job.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Veilleux’s better on the PK than Mitchell.

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by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fuuuuu – no kiddn’.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like this line up for next season.

It sure would make an interesting fan post; to see who the Leafs could plug into those 2 holes for next year – whether from the leafs system, or the FA market (College, UFA, RFA).

There are some nice looking RFA’s out there. It’s really too bad BB will only use it as a last resort

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forward UFA’s As per Capgeek.com

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

John Madden’s a UFA again? I thought he signed for more than one year in Chicago.
WANT

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmmm….

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Glen Metropolit is going to end up a leaf sometime in his next three teams, I can feel it.

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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

always liked this guy. Metro and Madden would be great actually. Exactly the kind of vet, bottom line stuff that would support the kids on the top end. Our pK might actually be ok…

by Leaf in Habland on Mar 16, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmmm – Metro at 1mill/season
Madden at 2.5/season

“Things that make you go hmmmm”

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

After the season Metro’s having in Montreal, no way he settles for that little.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point…

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

Madden’s making too much and will probably be priced out of our range.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

A $2.5MM 3rd liner is a luxury this team can’t afford—not with $30MM + on the blueline and in net.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only guy I would keep up for sure is Bozak.

I’ll reserve my judgment on StĂĄlberg until after this season – depends on if he can play more consistently or not. Hanson, Caputi should probably go down to the Marlies and Kadri, DiDo etc should not be with the big club next year.

It will pretty much be a writeoff season results wise next year, but we need it to be a development year.

Our Cap hit for 2011-12 is currently sitting at 28.6 million – that will be the year we want to try and take a run at the playoffs!!1

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Hanson, Caputi, and Stalberg could all definitely use some more time in the A…that’ means at least 5 players needed for the forward corps next season…

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

(with the thinking that Primeau and Kulemin get resigned)

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

We want to keep Primeau?

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

ditto

He is pretty good at faceoffs, an excellent fore-checker and actually goes to the net.

Also, he can pitch in a goal or two here and there.

Hard worker – definitely a guy I could see on our team next year

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah he’s the type of cheap vet (at 1-1.2 mill of course) that would help the kids.
He’s big, works hard, has a smooth skating stride, kills penalties, does well on faceoffs, and pretty much made an NHL career out of being a 3rd/4th line plugger.
He doesn’t have much of a finishing touch, but gets a few goals from hard work alone.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

at the right price, having him centre the 4th line does make some sense, i guess.

Sports And The City

A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...

PLAYOFFS!!!!1

by eyebleaf on Mar 16, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d rather have most of our 3rd and 4th liners as low paid veterans than to have some young guys playing there who might have potential to top out as top 6 guys.

I think Hanson is one of those borderline guys who could waver between being in the top 6/bottom 6.

He was ripping up the A before his concussion and we are using him in a checking role here.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kulemin needs to be re-signed.

I think Primeau earned a contract (but not at the 1.4 he is making now, would have to take a pay cut. 4th line guys should pretty much always be paid 1mil or less)

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Caputi’s already done the better part of two seasons in the AHL with the Baby Pens. He looks ready to be a full-time rookie next season.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would rather have more vets on the team next year. A lot easier for guys to learn from vets than it is to learn from other 1st and 2nd year players.

No need to rush him.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kessel has 5 goals this season against the Sens.

I want a hattie tonight

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Annual Union Meeting and Sleeping IN

Resulted in this late submission:

http://leafs.hockeyanalysis.com/2010/03/16/how-does-our-first-line-stack-up/

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

so, how many billions is your pension worth now? ;)

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

We don't control the pension!

But our annual union budget is about where Nashville’s cap hit sits.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I knew I should have went to teachers college…. I would be a full time teacher by now!

(and retired by 50)

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

The retirement thing

doesn’t look so rosy…

and declining enrollment (we had a report on that) also doesn’t look so great for the future.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of teachers will be retiring soon tho.

Problem is, a lot of them come back to teach part time and since they have the seniority, the new teachers have a hard time getting the proverbial foot in the door.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

not as many as you think

for a few reasons = 1. They had other investments that imploded in the market crash. 2. A lot of those retirements have already happened. 3. They are allowing them to work as occasonal teachers to supplement their income.

The number of teachers being hired is dropping… pretty fast. They’ll need more in 5 years or so. No one was hired in Toronto during last summer.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you are saying, I should go back to school now or within the next year or so?

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you want to fight with everyone who’s graduated in the last 3 years and can’t find a job, yeah.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

fresh and new, not old and broken!

Leafs new Motto

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you're fluent in French

or can work as a tech teacher… you’re guaranteed a job.

If you want to teach English or History… don’t bother… they don’t have much need.

Or on the other hand if you want to work in a remote part of the province go ahead.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but over the next 10-15 years, all the boomers will be retired.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes...

but who wants to wait 10 or 15 years for a job?

Unless you’re 12… then that’s ok.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tuition well spent!
Also I’m going to teach in Europe, England specifically.
I’ll get in on the Pension eventually!

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have been told

you will be stuffed in undesirable class rooms… but that’s not really something to be worried about.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kids are kids, I can handle it.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

so, it's like every industry everywhere, then?

$#%^ing boomers.

The number of eager talented people I know kicking around on internships in their late 20s is a national disgrace.

RETIRE already. Put your feet up.

A good PK is Club Truculence's cover charge

by pevans on Mar 16, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Their retirement funds all went belly-up

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the saddest thing is that most people in those positions are nowhere near as qualified as the younger ones.
Using the example of teaching, while there are a lot of great older teachers out there, most of them are using outdated methods. The younger teachers I’ve worked with would love to have more young blood in the profession. They are most likely the one’s responsible for this whole mess (obvious broad generalization)

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

@gregmillen The monster in goal tonight. Looks like the same lineup again. Leafs Ottawa. Will be tweeting live from the booth tonight.

What happened to Giguere getting the lion’s share of the starts?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

His average play

after his two shut outs.

Which has resulted in a steady decline in his stats.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

well yeah

but he’s playing just as well (or poorly) as he was in Anaheim, and Wilson said at that point he’d get most of the starts. So aside from stats, why is he sitting?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gustavsson has looked better?

maybe he’s injured?

I dunno beyond that.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought that after the trade deadline it was basically announced that Jonas and JS would be rotating all year.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

And so far they pretty much have

I don’t see this as a huge deal.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty much.

He originally DID say that JS would handle the load.

Then the Leafs looked like shit before and after the Olympic break.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe

I could remember wrong, but I thought Wilson said he’d give Giguere most of the starts. I’ll look for a quote.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was the original plan after they traded for JS, but they changed their mind a few weeks ago

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gustavsson has looked better? I disagree.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

They have both looked shaky

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree. Neither one has looked good.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Based on what?

Yes he’s allowed 8 goals in his last 3 starts, but he’s also got 3 wins in a row.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Giguere has gotten 5 goals in support over his last 5 starts. Gustavsson? 12 over his last 3.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

er, Giguere has gotten 9 GF in his last 5 games. Gustavsson has 12 in his last 3

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gustavsson is doing his very best Grant Fuhr impression, with the .895 save percentage and winning every game 4-3 or 6-4.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

He

isn’t starting every game… which was the problem when Toskala was around.

I’m ok with him starting half.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

THIS

x10000

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Mar 16, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lundmark?

Does he have any chance of being that 4th line winger, along side guy like Prim’s and Orr?

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd like to see him on the 3rd

he’s got great speed, and untapped offensive potential (I think)… and he hits a fair bit.

I think he’s a 20 point guy in the NHL if he gets consistent ice time.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with this assessment

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I were Burke...

the “pump and dump” UFA’s I’d be looking at (in no particular order) would be:

  • Saku Koivu
  • Mike Modano
  • Ray Whitney
  • John Madden
  • Petr Sykora
  • Jere Lehtinen
  • Olli Jokinen
  • Mike Comrie
  • Rob Niedermayer
  • Alex Tanguay
  • Brendan Morrison

UFA’s I’d take a look at signing for a longer term tour (ie -2-3 yrs tops) would be:

  • Colby Armstrong (he’s good for 15-20 goals, never a minus season in the NHL)
  • Tomas Plekanec (quietly putting up 64 pts in 70 games, scored at least 20 goals the last 4 years)
  • Chris Higgins (3 seasons of 20+ goals in MTL, might find that touch again in the right system)
  • Matthew Lombardi (speed to burn, and doing quite well in PHX w/ 44 pts in 65 games)
  • Alex Frolov (a right handed Kovalev, may not make it to open market though…)
  • Matt Cooke (seriously, he’s one of those “hate to play against him” guys, and the Leafs need somebody like that)
  • Alexei Ponikarovsky!!!!1 (Poni…sigh)

No Bertuzzi, thanks.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I’d pass on Sykora, and Jokinen will want too much $ and term – Modano is broken. The rest are all worth a look at a 1 year deal (also, no Lang?)

Plekanec will get a huge amount of $ based on the weak UFA crop – also term… Frolov we could get cheaper but probably not much.

Cooke – fuck him

The rest – worth a try

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cooke – fuck him

Atta boy.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sykora’s only making $1.6M this year, made $2.5M on his last deal, and $3M and change on the prev. His stats, unfortunately, have followed suit…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Helps when 2 years ago you were playing with an OK player named Crosby

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or Malkin.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Malkin’s a shmuck…only what, 30 some-odd points in the playoffs… loser

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ray Whitney just built a house in Raleigh. I doubt he goes anywhere. The Hurricanes will probably resign him to a one or two year deal with a NTC.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plekanec looks to me like he’ll be the best UFA after Kovalchuk, Marleau this year, and likely to get more than he should. Higgins seems like a great character guy, I really wouldn’t mind seeing him play for the Leafs.
I’ve loved Lombardi for a long time, but I can’t see Phoenix letting him go, he’s been pretty good for them.
Cooke is actually a good skilled 3rd liner, plus Burke and Nonis are familiar with him, it could happen!

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Burke will be all over Higgins, and he’ll come mega cheap too.

by birky on Mar 16, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

didn’t you hear, we are signing Bertuzzi…

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Armstrong and Lombardi are the only names on that list that even remotely interest me.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m fine with pump and dumps, but wouldn’t give a 2-3 yr deal to any of those guys. They all scream “overpaid second liner” a la Jason Blake. Jason Blake was not a bad player—hell, he led us in scoring last year—but was hated like the plague because he wasn’t worth it.

This team should never pay over $3MM for a non-first liner on a deal beyond one year because we’ve got cheaper options who are almost as good.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Jason Blake wasn’t really overpaid at 4 m (or if he was, it was only marginally)

He was over termed – and looked like a hamster going around and around and around….

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I’m paying a forward 4 million, I’d like them to shoot better than 6%.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

pretty simplified way to look at it. Look at production.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it’s not simplified.

There’s a limited number of shots on goal. It’s not like you can take an infinite number of shots every game, so offensive players making full use of their shots is good.

Jason Blake produced a goal on 6% of the shots he took this year. He produced 12 goals on 206 shots with us.

Saku Koivu has produced 12 goals in 101 shots for a 12% shooting percentage. Koivu also has more assists for the record.

Koivu was a free agent and got a contract for 3.25 million. Blake earns 4.

Koivu did the same with 105 fewer shots…shots that could have been taken by someone else and resulted in more goals. =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or hell….Koivu on the leafs would have taken on our top line and could have taken 100 more shots and scored 10 more goals =P

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way I am looking at production.

I’m simply looking at goal production per shot, which is a very important metric given that shots are a limited resource.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno

Seemed that people hated him pretty soon during his tenure.

Without looking at any data I’ll make a wager that the majority of UFA signings league-wide for more than one year in the $3-5MM range fall into the category of either “questionable” or “outright bust”.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like a great rule of thumb

of what NOT to do this offseason then

Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Mar 16, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously

that’s a fantastic idea/question/statement.

I’m very curious about how one could analyze that now…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll admit it’s an inherently subjective analysis which is why I’m happy making the statement—can’t be disproven!

Seriously though, that does seem to be a major red flag zone just from my recollection of bad contracts over the past couple years.

by The '67 Sound on Mar 16, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

in fancy highfalutin speak

I’d say I agree with your statement thesis.

I’d just really like to see how something like that would shake down. Be kind of tough because the UFA rules pre-lockout would be different than post, but I don’t know that there’s enough data to do one for just post-lockout/CBA impacted UFA signings…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The reason people hate Blake is because of his shooting percentage. The first year he was here, he shot 4.5%. And yes I know you have cancer….but when you take 330 shots and only score on 4.5% of them….people get mad. =P

Crosby took 173 shots that year…almost half as many as Blake and had 24 goals to Blake’s 15.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I feel like this is done by a lot of Leafs fans

and I’m not pointing fingers at you Theodies, but I feel like this outlines how to be a Leafs fan in one step for lots of people.

# compare regular NHL players to generational superstar talents and dislike players due to expected stats discrepancies*

* If player is deemed “gritty”, exceptions can be made. See Tucker, Darcy.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea using Crosby as a comparison really isn’t fair, to either Blake or Crosby.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I compared him to Koivu too blurr =P

I used Crosby because Crosby didn’t take many shots that year =)

Blake should have realized he sucked at shooting and instead of compounding that sucking by taking even more shots, he should have become more of a playmaker.

But still to this date, Blake keeps shooting…..

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

=P
=)

You don’t need to do this, you know.

Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)

by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 16, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

you really don’t.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really do….if only to piss you off. =)

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not just me.
And if they mean that much to you, keep using them.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn’t counting the nobodies. =P

And I shall.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

I don’t mind emoticons, they help establish tone and are easy enough to ignore within the context of the comment.

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also the Crosby comparison was also justified….because if you’re taking 320 shots a year….you better damned well be a superstar.

Even Sundin only had like 1 or 2 300 shot seasons. Hell he didn’t often take more than 250, yet he managed high 20 and 30 goal seasons.

If you can’t shoot…don’t shoot the puck.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

For you blurr….as list of the top shooting players in the NHL in 2007-2008

1 Alex Ovechkin 446 14.6
2 Henrik Zetterberg 358 12.0
3 Olli Jokinen 341 10.0
4 Jarome Iginla 338 14.8
5 Jason Blake 332 4.5
6 Rick Nash 329 11.6
7 Vincent Lecavalier 318 12.6
8 Eric Staal 310 12.3
9 Brian Rolston MIN 289 10.7
10 Ilya Kovalchuk ATL 283 18.4

So yes….I feel fully justified in comparing Blake to other stars…..if he shoots like them, I can compare him to them.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair point

which one of those guys was making less than Blake?

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh snap?

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe

I just think taking one season is akin to quoting out of context or something. mf37 has shown on multiple occasions how anyone not named JFJ could tell the 40 goal season was an anomaly for Blake.

that said, a player isn’t paid for just goals or just assists, but points. So, if we average Blake’s career averages since becoming a full time NHLer, he averages 22Gs and 27As or 49pts a season with 260 shots taken (again, an average over his career)

During the two years Blake was with TO, 33 other players met or exceeded those averages (34 including Blake.) Of those 33, only 11 had made it to free agency and “cashed in.”

The average salary for those players is just north of $5.5M (with Blake’s salary included, excluded it jumps a bit to $5.6M) over the course of the two full years Blake was a Leaf (07-08 and 08-09). He may well have been priced right.

I agree with Say Plan…’s initial statement. He was over termed.

* note – all math done on the fly while at work. might be a little off here or there in my approach…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

A player isn’t paid for points. Or they shouldn’t be if the GM is smart.

A player should be paid to be efficient. Usually greater efficiency leads to more points.

However inefficiency can also lead to points if the player is given too much ice time for their level or skill or takes too many shots or a combination of both.

Blake was inefficient his first year here. He got points because he played more than he should have and shot more than he should have.

The question was why did some leafs fans quickly begin to hate Blake. That’s why. =)

His second year here was better, though still not great. This year he was a disaster again.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a Leaf fan

I can attest that your assumption is incorrect.

I disliked the length of his contract. That was my problem with him. I think the media and some fans expected another 40 goals out of him, and focused on his regression to his previous level of abilities, as if it was somehow Blake’s fault no one realized he’s never been a sniper in his life…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fantasy Realm and I had a conversation the day of Blake’s signing and we agreed that 25 goals and 60 points should be approximately what we should expect from him.

Of course we expected that from him while playing on a top line with Sundin….

Then the cancer thing didn’t help.

We both thought three years would have been a much more reasonable term and JFJ tacked on 2 extra years cause he is such a nice guy for giving out contracts. Surprised he didn’t throw in a NTC

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

ugh

imagine if Blake had an NTC…

/shudder

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Mar 16, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

They expected Blake to shoot somewhere over 10% =) They would have been happy with that.

Instead Blake somehow became a completely inefficient player. He shot only 6% during his stay with the Leafs whereas he shot over 10% during the previous 4 years with the Islanders.

If Blake had shot 10% with us, would he have been worth 4 million a year. Yes. He would have been a 30 goal man given the number of shots he takes.

Given his decreased shooting efficiency, was he worth 4 million a year. No. Is he worth anything? I’d argue no. With 6% shooting, you don’t want to play him anywhere except the 3rd or 4th lines. He’s a detriment to the team.

No one was asking him to be a sniper…they were just asking him to be….mediocre. Hell 8% like his second year here would have been ok….or even if he cut down the number of shots he took and tried to make plays…

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ovechkin. Brian Rolston. Zetterberg. Eric Staal made peanuts more.

Rick Nash made 1 million more. Ditto with Jokinen

The question you should really be asking….is how much would we have to pay competent forward who could only shoot at 4.5% that year. Even Colton Orr shoots at 4.8% lifetime. =P

So…forwards who shot around 4.5% that year.

Ville Peltonen
Trent Hunter
Shean Donovan
Mathias Tjarnqvist
Gregory Campbell
Mikael Samuelsson (that would have been nice…he’s awesome now)

It’s actually hard to fine….forwards who shoot 4.5% generally don’t last long or play on top lines. =P

Blake shot like a star player….he performed like Gregory Campbell…who currently makes 760k a year.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I should mention it’s not all Blake’s fault. He didn’t ask to be offered 4 million by the leafs…and he didn’t demand to be played on the first line.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry….I forgot to add Dominic Moore to that list.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

D'awwwww
@simmonssteve Don’t know who DownGoesBrown is, but at least once a day he makes me laugh

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

He does that for all of us, Simmons

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

who’s steve simmons?

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can people stop replying to serious hockey discussion with cheap, sarcastic comments?
I’m finding it very frustrating to maintain an ongoing debate because of this.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:36 PM EDT reply actions  

The funny ones can stay.

Just ignore the rest.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 16, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t mean to stifle our debate, Karina.

The tanking thing is the one topic that I get extremely caustic about.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

not really directed at you, the entire thread is riddled with sarcastic replies that do nothing to further the debate.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can see how I came to that conclusion though, after I left a comment dripping with sarcasm and then your post down here…

We cool?

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup

we’re cool. ;)

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think

300+ comments implies there’s no inability to maintain ongoing debate.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

well that’s why I said I’m finding it frustrating.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can I just say that this is why I love this place?

300 comments, spurred on by a question about who we should get to be our 3rd line right winger next year. Unfreakinbelievable.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 2:50 PM EDT reply actions  

hahaha – I had a feeling…

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can we move the model/AHL/development

discussion down here. More room.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:05 PM EDT reply actions  

On the Pro-Tanking

side of things… I hate this argument… it’s completely fallacious.

You get good talent as a result… but you don’t necessarily make the playoffs if you have 1 or 2 great players.

Look at Tampa Bay… they got Stamkos AND Hedman… they’ve still got Lecavalier AND St. Louis… but they’re not in the playoffs. Stamkos has 42 goals… They’ve got Lecavalier signed for the next 10 years or so… they traded to get Downie… they signed Ohlund as a free agent… they still have problems in goal…

they are also out of the playoff picture and can’t play Defense.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:13 PM EDT reply actions  

BUT

they won a Stanley Cup already… but I don’t know if I’d say it resulted from tanking.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tanking also doesn’t guarantee good talent – it may increase your chances of getting good talent but it guarantees nothing (See Daigle, Stefan)

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

They won the Cup because Vinny and St. Louis were at the peak of their powers, they had a very good goalie playing at close to an elite level in Khabibulin, and they had production and contributions from the rest of the team that far outweighed their combined talent level.

Other than Dan Boyle and the players I mentioned above, I bet most hockey fans would have trouble naming three or four other players on that team.

I consider Tampa’s win similar to Carolina’s in terms of team makeup and path through the playoffs, even though Tampa was pre-cap and Carolina post-cap.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot awesome grizzled veteran leadership from Andreychuk =D

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kubina, Kuba, Brad Richards and Cory Stillman.

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

who are those nobodies?

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 16, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I only knew Stillman because he left Tampa and went to Carolina who won the next Cup.

I replaced Andreychuck with Kuba when Theodles posted him. :(

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure every Leaf fan remembers that Andreychuk was on that team with his salt and pepper beard and his gruff exterior.

I was so happy when he won.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even as I mourned since Canadians lost.

by Theodles on Mar 16, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

and Modin

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

oops they got Kuba after

nonetheless

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Mar 16, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Prospal was HUGE for them that year

Fairweather fans can go to hell

by leafer1984 on Mar 16, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Modin, Sarich, Fedotenko

I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.

by SkinnyFish on Mar 16, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

gah

Forgot about Brad Richards, I should have included him in with Vinny and St. Louis.

The other players everyone else has mentioned are all decent at worst, and all made big contributions to the team. It does go to prove Steve’s original point, in my mind… Tampa did not have a team full of superstar players, therefore you can’t say they won their Cup as a result of tanking.

leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.

by stucky on Mar 16, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

didn’t they lose less than 80 man games to injury that year – and like 70 of them was to a 4th line guy?

remember something crazy like that

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 16, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was less than 40 man games lost to injury all year.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Mar 17, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I sit corrected – knew it was something stupidly low

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 17, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

The East destroyed itself that season. Philly/Jersey, Toronto/Ottawa took 2 of the top 5 contenders out in the first round, Philly/Toronto took out another, and Tampa picked off an exhausted Philly team with 3 of its regular defence.

Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP

by clrkaitken on Mar 16, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

What Ron Wilson and Brian Burke have said

and what they have done are not entirely the same.

They’re building a team the way they think it should be built… and they don’t think missing the playoffs in perpetuity is a requirement for that improvement to happen.

They have a decent set of top 6 forwards going into the future. They’ve drafted some high end talent.. They’ve signed some good free agents… There’s a mix there.

The fact is, they aren’t 5 years away from the playoffs. They’re probably another 2 years from the playoffs, but they’re trending in the right direction, and if things work out well for them next year they might make it in. They can’t deviate from the long term perspective if they want to be a contender year after year though… and I think they realize that.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Mar 16, 2010 3:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I can’t currently find the Toronto Star article with the quotes from Burke and Wilson that they can’t do a slow rebuild in Toronto, but I stand by my point.
I’m not saying that they aren’t going to be able to get the team to where they want to, or that they’re going to ruin the leafs. I also don’t believe they’re building the team the way they would build it if it was completely up to them. That said, these are the cards they’ve been dealt, and they are playing them, and really we have to trust them.

I’m not even sure what you’re trying to debate with me here.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Mar 16, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think MLSE’s mandate and Burke’s philosophy on building good teams work well together.

Both hate missing the playoffs.

Wendel Killer Joseph

by MapleLeafMole on Mar 16, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

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