Chalk Up Another Moral Victory
by SkinnyFish on Mar 5, 2010 7:00 AM EST
in From The Branches
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Tomas Kaberle happy with deadline outcome. Yeah I bet you are jerkstore [Globe and Mail]
I don't care if you want to emulate Tyler Kennedy; do not lick your hockey stick [The Hockey News]
Burke on why he goes Luca Caputi over picks for Ponikarovski [Mirtle]
I don't care how they justify it, I can't stop laughing [mc79]
I can't stop laughing at the Bob Ross "GO FOR IT JEWS!" entry [Puck Daddy]
Burke's inclination is to do nothing [The Truthulence]
LD says goodbye to Poni with a little YouTube Yoinkage [WWoLD]
What a terrible example is being set by combining a championship with alcohol [Vintage Leafs]
Update 1:
Dr. Steve thinks the Leafs are generating chances and heading in the right direction. [Leafs.Hockeyanalysis]
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Dale Mitchell also had 3 assists
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions
The Nazdaq is up!!
Looks like only 2 regular season OHL games left though. He’s going to be hard pressed to hit that 100 points mark. (currently: 81)
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
I guess i stand corrected! The Naz tracker wasn’t updated I guess.
Cmon kadri 17 points, 4 games, don’t be a pussy lets gooooooooooo
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
PPG
On the other hand, Nazdaq PPG is higher than everyone else in the OHL except Hall and Seguin:
1. Hall: 1.82 PPG (55 GP – 100 Pts)
2. Seguin: 1.71 PPG (58 GP – 99 Pts)
3. Kadri: 1.60 PPG (53 GP – 85 Pts)
Bonus: Kadri has 103 PIM; Hall 54, Seguin 52
Regardless
I think we’ve all been pleased with his point production.
His turnovers and trying to do it all (i.e. splitting the D instead of making a pass) not so much. Don’t get me started on those one-timer attempts in the WJC.
Still needs polishing, but such a solid prospect. Star potential, c’mon beef up Kadri!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
he has the skill and the drive to be an NHL game breaker, he has some growing up and learning to do, but he is only 18
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Kadri + Kessel = Getzlaf lite and Perry superlite
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
except Kadri is the only one with pest and or mean potential
Kessel’s hilarious fight withstanding
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Brayden Schenn
Incidentally, has almost exactly the same stats as Kadri, but in the WHL
B. Schenn: 1.57 PPG (54 GP – 85 Pts)
(WHL scoring is very similar to OHL scoring this year)
Remember, Kadri is a year older. 1.4 ppg as an 18yr old. Let’s hope whoever the B’s land is another Daigle.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
And their country almost beat Canada!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
can you himagine?
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 5, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Holy drafbust Batman! That means Daigle is almost as good as team Canada!
Phaneuf Phever, an upgrade in skill and alliteration!
That means Daigle isalmost as good as1000000x better than all of team Canada!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Hall also has one hell of a supporting cast
Seguin looks like the real deal though
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
True. If I were the Oilers (hah!) I would draft Seguin. Looks like a better franchise player than Hall (just because it’s hard to build around a Hall-type finisher)
yeah, plus I think Seguin would fit better withGagne, Eberle and MPS
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
both
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
a patrik stefan would also suffice
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Mar 5, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Dreaming:
How great would it be to have Kadri + one of either Hall or Sequin in the Leafs pipeline???
resume reality
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Tyler Seguin
Hall or Sequin
I’m pretty sure sequins are those little things that girls have on their purses.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
Correction
girls have on their purses.
Girls AND Toskala.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
the leafs would be FABULOUS
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
I used a Q there didn’t I?
was it on purpose???? A diabolic sub plot to undermine the….
…
…
…
it was a typo
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
But the stick tastes so good!
Its leadicious!!
(China’s secret plan to win the 2014 Olympic Hockey Gold. Poison the other teams)
After my pessimism of two nights ago I was trying to be more positive and think of best case scenario for 2011/12 (I can’t muster it for 2010/11). Here goes (a * indicates no contract for that year so I’m guessing):
Kessel $5.5 – Kadri $1.75 – X
DiDo $0.678 – Bozak $3.5* – Caputi $1.5*
Kulemin $2.0* – Hanson $1.2* – Stalberg $1.2*
Orr $1.0 – Mitchell $0.75 – Sjostrom $1.0*
X
Phaneuf $6.5 – Beauch $3.8
Schenn $3.0* – Komi $4.5
Mikus $0.563 – Gunnarsson $2.0*
Aulie $0.733
Gustavsson $4.0
Reimer $0.750*
Tucker $1.0 (Argh)
That’s $47MM, leaving $10-13MM (I’m guess the cap goes up no more than $3MM) for a 13th F and #1 winger. I’m assuming Kaberle gets traded at the draft, Grabovski gets traded by the deadline next year, and Finger gets buried in the minors. Assets gained from Kaberle and Grabs are stockpiled and combined with anything else we have to land that #1 winger (the only appealing young UFA winger in 2011 is Semin, and I can’t see the Caps letting him get away). This also leaves some wiggle room in case I’ve been optimistic in my contracts.
All of this depends on Dido, Caputi, Stalberg, Hanson, Kadri and Mikus (or Stefanovich, or Mitchell, or Paradis, or Champagne, or D’Amigo, etc.) turning into viable NHLers, Gustavvson providing at least league average goaltending, and Phaneuf turning into the monster #1D we’ve seen flashes of, but which he hasn’t been this year. However, the lineup above at least looks like a playoff team, and if everything breaks right, maybe even a contender.
This doesn’t change my opinion that we could and should be better off than we are, but I haven’t abandoned all hope for 2011.
well, I can tell you that Komi and Schenn won’t ever be playing together, because they both shoot right. It’s more likely that Wilson keeps Phaneuf – Beauch as his #1 pair, then whomever we get this summer/Kaberle – Komi as #2, and Gunnar – Schenn as #3
DiDom probably would have been with the Marlies this year, but because of the broken leg, they wanted him to ease back into action in juniors. He’ll start next year in the A, like Bozak did.
I also wouldn’t sleep on Holzner. He has now played 3 seasons in the German tier 1 league. He played in the olympics. Looks like he could be another late bloomer, not unlike Gunnarson.
You’re right re. Komi/Schenn; also you don’t want two guys who don’t excel at moving the puck together.
I don’t think we’ll trade Kaberle for a defenceman and I don’t think it’s good cap management to have a guy like Schenn on your third pair.
By 2011 we can only have two of Beauch, Komi & Kaberle.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
Make them fight to the death.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Make sure Finger's in that fight!
And we stab him before the fight, Gladiator style.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
I didn’t mean to imply we’d move Kaberle for a defenseman. Either we trade him for pick/prospect/forward and sign a different dman in July, or Burke keeps Kaberle for one more go round.
I think it’s more than possible that he gives Kabby another go-around, or at least keeps telling us he will to try to get other teams to overpay.
I’m still of the stance that no matter what we get for Kaberle in a trade this summer we will all be disappointed with the return.
Seriously, Bobby Ryan + prospect + 1st? Seriously guys? Kabby is good, but that will never happen.
Tamper expectations!!!!1
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
the most the leafs get for kabby will fill something like this
-1st + Good prospect + Young unfulfilled potential roster player
-all but guaranteed Late first + Blue chipper in a stacked pond (think Schneider or Ellis) + 2nd (probably f2011)
-2nd + young top 6er approaching RFA in a year or two + decent prospect (think Blacker or Ryan)
-proven young top 6er on EL contract(ex-voracheck) + 2nd
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
If you trade for Kaberle, you’re only getting one year of work. Would you trade a blue-chip prospect and a late 1st round draft pick for one year of service?
I wouldn’t. Realistically, you’re looking at a 2nd round pick and a solid forward prospect -or- a young forward in the NHL who’s entry level contract is about to expire, i.e. Phil Kessel.
a team like say Vancouver (lets pretend they need a puck mover) makes the 3rd round this years playoffs thinks Kabby will put them over the top? Yeah, they’ll give you the 26th-30th over all plus a player like Schneider who they dont need (luongo) for the final piece
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
I really really wish we had gotten a straight swap, or Kab +2nd.
Oh well, looking forward…
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Who's expecting that for Kaberle?
No one on this site, at least. The days of Carter and a #1 are long gone.
My optimistic scenario is still that we package Kaberle or whatever we get for him along with some other prospects for a forward who is annually a threat to exceed a point per game.
Let’s hope the other teams dole out another raft of stupid contracts this year and that Burke steers clear.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
This is what I saw posted on the Tomas Kaberle fanpost yesterday:
The only way you trade him is if you get a Pronger -esque offer. Or if you get a straight up top offensive guy (Jeff Carter, Bobby Ryan etc) and even then it might need to be more. Patrick Sharp + Kirs Versteeg + 1st (maybe i dont know Versteeg too well).
- samspade
That’s what I’m talking about.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Wow. Missed that one. That’s sad. I love Tommie but that’s dreaming in technicolour.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
The point of that post was that I dont think we should trade Kabs UNLESS we get that kind of a deal. Im of the opinion that we shouldn’t trade Kaberle. I wasnt expecting that in any way, its just if we get that the YES we should do that deal. You seem to have completely missed my point
Sorry for my tone.
However, I still think it’s dreaming that Kabs is worth that much to keep. I love him but he isn’t anymore. Poni got a 2nd line prospect and a low round pick. If Kabs could land us a 1st line prospect or a Caputi-type plus a higher pick I’d do it in a heartbeat. This team has way too much cap tied up in D men, Kabs is a declining asset, I think we have to deal him.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Patrick Sharp
Is he really that good? I never watch him play personally besides the odd playoffs game, but his numbers in the last two years are not any higher than Poni was.
Poni’s points/60 is 2.41, Sharp’s is 2.55
But Poni’s goals/60 is much higher 1.10 vs 0.92
Are there intagibles that are much better in Sharp?
I’d never take Sharp at $3.9MM. Or Poni.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
The days of Carter and a #1 are long gone.
>:(
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
That guy does know everything.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I miss him =(
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
I know we’ve mostly been in tear-down-trade mode for the last year or so, but looking at some of the players with reasonable potential, i’d love if we could keep and build most of this core for a few years.
Develop-from-within is a great startegy when you have the right group in place.
That being said, get Mitchell the fuck out of here!!!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
I agree with these statements
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
2 things
1) ‘Dr.’ Steve has a new blog. on leafs.hockeyanalysis.com
2) 67 Sound:
If we are paying Gustavsson 4.0/year he should be damn good by then.
I’d like to see DiDo be a top 6 and I guess thats about the right time (2010/2011 in the AHL called up on injuries for 20 or so games. Make a real push to be in the line up in the N in 2011/2012).
I’ll be disappointed in Stahlberg if he doesn’t develop out of the bottom 6.
Random side note. People say Orescovich would get the call up before Mikus (but re Orescovich can you have a negative offensive potential?)
Adding Steve’s post now.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Prospects
We got some great bodies moving through College/Europe/CHL.
I am excited for (in no order):
Mitchell (fuck John, gimme Dale)
Stefanovich
Dido
D’Amigo
Kadri
Hayes
Ryan
D:
Blacker
Aulie
Oreskovich
Mikus
Side note: Did you know Hockey futures has Stahlberg’s potential sa higher than Caputis?
The Leafs are indeed the youngest team in the NHL with an average ago of 26.6 years. Columbus, wallowing near the bottom of the Western Conference is next with a 26.8 average. In contrast, perennial contender Detroit is the oldest with age just over 31.
- The Star
To add a little more perspective to Toronto’s relative youth, this was Tomas Kaberle’s 801st game as a Leaf. The player next in line in terms of experience as a Leaf is Kulemin, who pulled on the blue and white for the 132nd time. Luke Schenn was next, slipping on his Toronto jersey for the 130th time.
Perennial contender Detroit that looks like it won’t make the dance this year
Pension Plan Puppets*
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injuries propper fucked em this year
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Injuries are strongly correlated with being old.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I think they'll make it
They’re healthy for the drive. They also tend to finish strong.
In regards to the injuries being correlated to being old, it wasn’t their old guys getting injured!
well Franzen isnt exactly a spring chicken, but when youth goes down, and you expect age to take up the slack you still have a problem
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
use this
the reply button_________________^
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Ah, shark!
~~\o/~~~~~~~~~~~~/\~~~~~^
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
/\
/ \
|
_______
\ /
~~~~~~~~
ITS A SAIL BOAT
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Oh. A schooner.
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
by article1 on Mar 5, 2010 1:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>^
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
> ( . )( . )
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m pretty sure it’s actually one boob and one eye.
Tricky.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEWBS
The Artist Formerly Known as...
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
STOP RUINING THE FTB WITH YOUR TERRIBLE SPELLING AND CRUMMY ASCII ART OR SO HELP ME GOD
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SkinnyFish started it
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
I have changed the blog motto.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
fantastic
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I love it
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Mar 5, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
that… is…awesome
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
BCWW
"We can categorically state that we have not released man-eating badgers into Iraq"
- Major Mike Shearer
by article1 on Mar 5, 2010 1:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Can someone
explain the “go for it jews thing”
I know Bettman is Jewish. And I guess he’s supposed to be Moses. But who is he parting the dead sea for?
Loving the Leafs is like being in love with a drug-addled, gambling addicted prostitute with a heart of gold and a bunch of humanitarian awards from her youth. It’s hard. It hurts. But dammit! I just love them!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Mar 5, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions
He’s parting the seas so the jews can escape the egyptians?
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 5, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Gary Bettman, portraits of heroism
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
ok
but it’s not that funny.
Loving the Leafs is like being in love with a drug-addled, gambling addicted prostitute with a heart of gold and a bunch of humanitarian awards from her youth. It’s hard. It hurts. But dammit! I just love them!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Mar 5, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
This
"You can see with the Kessel deal, we are not interested in a five-year rebuilding plan. We’re trying to improve this team on a much more rapid time frame. You saw in Anaheim that it didn’t take five years. That’s what we’re trying to do here."
-from the Mirtle Post
For the next time I’m told to have “patience” with BB and the Leafs…
Wendel Killer Joseph
This is why I’m firmly convinced Burke would say 18 months in, it’s been a failure. We’re on Plan B now. Maybe we should have been on Plan B all along but I don’t think Burke has been.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I read through your post and the comments yesterday…I have to agree with this – there is no way, 18 months in, Burke anticipated to be in this position. Way out of the playoffs, sellers at the deadline. I’m sure he was hoping for a playoff push at this time, and buying a couple of pieces to help push the Leafs into the playoffs.
We are at plan B.
Also – I am completely unsatisfied with the “Bad Luck”/ “Everything that could go wrong did” arguement for this season. It’s fine, maybe as fans to use this excuse – it sure makes me feel better. I hope and don’t believe that Burke will settle for that answer.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
No goaltending = sellers at the trade deadline. No penalty-killing just reinforced it.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Fair…the Leafs goaltending did suck worse than any other team this year. Our assesment of our goaltending – mine included – was way off.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
I hope and don’t believe that Burke will settle for that answer.
He clearly hasn’t accepted it. If he was he wouldn’t have turned over the entire roster.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
just because he isnt on a 5 year plan doesnt mean he has no patience, it means he wants results in LESS than 5 years, that could mean 1 year or it could mean 3.
3 years is still pretty rapid compared to 5 years
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
The only moves that BB has made I don’t like right now are the Kubina trade for nothing and of course the kessel deal for obvious reasons. That being said I see his reasoning for both and hopefully Kessel is better than hall/seguin and we don’t stink this bad next year so hall 2.0 doesn’t go to the bruins as well.
Oh Jared…I love your optimism. The truth is all the youth and “potential” the Leafs have now, their is no way this is a 1 or 3 year plan. I’ll write off 08-09 because he joined in Nov2008 (though I feel it still counts). A 3 year plan means ‘11-’12 is the shoot for the cup season. I hope so. I do. But I doubt it.
He took over the Ducks in the summer of 2005. In his second full season the Ducks won the cup. Based on the way he bulked up the D, and dumped important picks this year with the Leafs, I gotta guess he was hoping for something similar – actually his quote says as much. It hasn’t worked.
I’m not really here to gripe about Burke. More so fans telling me to have patience, when it is so obvious MLSE does not have any.
At this point it’s looking like a 5 year plan.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
its still a sub 5 year plan because it has barley even been one year, who knows what will happen in the summer or next season or whatever. it is a 3 year (still a rough number for argument sake only) because around then players like Kessel, Schenn, Kulemin and Phaneuf will either be in or close to their prime as NHL players.
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
I hope so and of course anyhing can happen.
for arguements sake – when is the third year? are we counting 08-09? It wasn’t a full season, but roughly 3/4 of a season.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Ill say this season is season one, sure Burke got a cheat stretch with the first deadline, but for arguments sake lets count UFA season up.
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Does that mean he doesn’t get credit for drafting Kadri?
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Yes he does, but only because he fucked over Bryan Murray
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
i coulda swore UFA season was before the draft?
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Bout a week after
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
not really, more of a factual mix up
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
ah well, then the draft is the jump off spot
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I have a hard time writing off that season – since he made significant moves at the deadline and drafted some important guys. But the “plan” for that season from Oct-Jun wasn’t his so I’ll give you that
In any case, taking your scenario the Leafs are a contending team by 11-12.
Also Jared, to be sure this is nothing personal at all, not in the least.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
i dont take things on the internet personally
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
I’d say that each Deadline/Draft/UFA counts as one year on his tenure.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
It sounds like you’re the one lacking in patience.
MLSE has kept quiet and let Burke be a seller at two straight deadlines; if they were so obviously lacking patience as you say, they’d be vetoing any deal that wasn’t a short-term fix.
Which brings me to my point…
I don’t want to ever go back to the JFJ era. I don’t want to cling relentlessly to the past, to make moves where we do nothing but sacrifice our future to make a marginal improvement in the present. It does no good at this point to sell the farm to get the 8th seed and 2 or 3 home playoff dates. If we sneak into the playoffs while building, so be it. But when all that talent we’ve accumulated starts to mature, that’s when we start looking at the possibility of sustained success. Which is the plan, and has been from Day One.
Make trades to improve the long-term picture. Sign free agents to address weaknesses and augment the short-term picture. And if a deal comes along that serves our short-term and long-term interests, you do it and you don’t look back.
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
Sorry clrkaitken – I don’t fully understand your post. (Not trying to be a dick – I just don’t fully get it)
The plan has always been re-tool…Burke has said that from day one. I think his plan of re-tooling is not working. Acutally I don’t even think it was HIS plan, but mandated by MLSE. I wish I wasn’t done my lunch break 20 minutes ago and could find the quotes.
He uses Anaheim as the example always. By the end of his second full season in Anaheim they had won the cup.
Can we say the same about the Leafs, in Burke’s seond full season – ’10-11? Or even in his third full season???
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
the main difference in Anaheim is that Burke inherited some pretty good young potential superstar players in Getzlaf, Perry et all, also some solid goaltending.
In Toronto he was given a giant mess with a couple salvageable assets and some decent kids in the system
Frankly for the Leafs to turn it around as fast as teh ducks did it would have taken a blind miracle
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
There is what you hope happens and then there is what is reasonable.
I think too many people got the notion of he would come in here and turn everything around immediately.
He says what he intends to do, he doesn’t promise that they will happen.
Those are his goals and he sets lofty ones… reach for the stars and you might get to the moon.
Sorry if so many people got their hopes up to unreasonable expectations.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
Burke is setting those unreasonable expectations. He is directly telling us he would like to do with the Leafs, what he did with Anaheim.
It was clear from day one, that the team Burke inherited in Anaheim was much different than the one he inherited in Toronto. Toronto was a mess, had no real blue chip prospects outside of Schenn, and no proven goaltending.
see Jared’s response for Anaheim re:Getzlaff, Perry, Giggy.
It wasn’t going to work in Toronto the way it worked in Anaheim…that much was clear from day one. To any learned hockey fan.
Why try to do things the same way?
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
how is he setting unrealistic expectations?
Hey you see that cup winning team I had down in Cali? Yeah, that is what I’m going for here, I’m gonna try and do it in under 5 years too, because thats how long I am here for and i’d like to be part of that win
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
I say good luck to Burke.
As I always say here:
Here’s hoping Nazem Kadri is the real deal.
(Caveat: And they find some goaltending).
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not holding up the Ducks as an example. I’m quoting Burke
“You saw in Anaheim that it didn’t take five years. That’s what we’re trying to do here.”
I know what you’re saying big time…I get it. I’m suprised he doesn’t.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I get really annoyed by the talk of “1 year plans” and “5 year plans” and all that, because it makes it sound like the goals are rigidly defined, and there’s no contingencies for anything that happens that isn’t according to the plan, and there’s no thought given to beyond the timeframe.
It’s good to have goals on a time frame. But an entire plan shouldn’t be benchmarked in time, and it shouldn’t have an end date that says “I have no idea what we do beyond this point in time.”
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
Also, if you really examine it, hasn’t the problem with the re-tooling been the guys who weren’t yet re-tooled?
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
We sure had a lot of ‘tools’
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
The talk of ‘5 year plans’ is more fun when being used to bash Jays fans over the head about Ricciardi.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
Arch and Eye are two premier examples
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
the re-tool isn’t working because the team is in last place? Burke has been shoveling shit left over by JFJ for the past year. Can we not give him at least one more year before we start jumping all over him? This team could look a lot better next season, if only because of the goaltending.
I’m willing to bet money they will be better next season.
Also, I’ve been saying there is always next year for a 20+ years.
Also, hasn’t anyone learned: With the Leafs it’s better to be cynical and proven wrong, than optimistic and proven wrong?
:P
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just saying that all of this talk over the last few days about “has Burke done a good job” is just a facade for people to bitch about the team not being good.
Yeah, we don’t have a Duchene or Stamkos. But we have the deepest scouting department in hockey. We’ve had good luck in the draft the last 4 or 5 years, even though we haven’t had all of our top picks.
I don’t like the Kessel deal, because we gave up 3 draft picks for him, but it’s not the end of the world. I’ll tell you what though. I like how Burke is building this team. We might, might, finally have decent goaltending. Our defense isn’t too shabby. The offense will come once the young guys mature and get some confidence.
Look at Chicago. They had first round draft picks in the top 10 for almost the entire 1990s. How many home runs did they hit? They got Toews and Kane this decade. Seabrook has been pretty good, but Keith was a 2nd round pick. Barker is in Minnesota and Jack Skille still can’t crack their roster.
People just need to chill out and let Burke do his thing. It’s been 43 years since the last cup. Surely we can wait a few more.
(sorry, kind of jumped around a bit)
Also, hasn’t anyone learned: With the Leafs it’s better to be cynical and proven wrong, than optimistic and proven wrong?
Maybe if you’re more concerned about being right. If you’re a fan though the latter is much more natural.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
Nope nothing to do with being right at all. Not even close
If I was concerned with being right – I would want them to fail, no? As I am a cynical fan, if they failed, then I would be right….and I could gloat and gloat and gloat.
No I want to be proven wrong…more than anything.
I’m a glass half-empty fan. I understand that doesn’t make me wildly popular.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
heh
Not referring to you but a lot of cynical fans I know rather be right than have the Leafs win.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Burke’s plan is to make the playoffs, while re-stocking the org. depth. It has been coined “re-tooling” that is extremely hard thing to do in a salary capped NHL. I say good luck, he just burned 1 year off his 5 year contract.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
And in that year he shipped out every bad contract for two.
He also added Kessel, Bozak, Hanson, Gustavsson, Caputi, Aulie, and some draft picks.
On the ice this year has been a complete write-off.
Off the ice I’d argue it’s been our best in years.
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
every bad contract for two what? two bad contracts?
Some draft picks? late round low percentage picks?
Kessel, Bozak, Hanson, Gust, Caputi, Aulie? Ain’t a blue chipper in there.
Off the ice it’s been good, when comparing to our past. League wide – nothing special at all.
The chance – at this point – of finishing in the bottom 5, and not having a 1st or 2nd round pick – is a fail, regardless of excuses.
My point here is to illustrate how easily this season can be viewed negatively. (as opposed to attacking you. I do enjoy the debate. I really do. I’ve moved to Ottawa in the past year, and can talk/debate/argue Leafs with very few if anyone around here).
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
“also – every bad contract for two what? two bad contracts?”
this line was completely asinine of me.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
bad contracts burke has gotten rid of – blake, kubina, toskala
Bad contracts he now has – Finger, Giggy
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
SOme would, I wouldn’t.
He is having an off year. The guy is TWENTY FUCKIN FOUR and has been nominated for a Norris.
Fairweather fans can go to hell
I agree
That’s why I chose the words “some would argue” carefully.
Komi hasn’t really had a chance to live up to his 4.5m contract either, but I’m not even close to being ready to call that a bust yet.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
I love Habs fans for making fun of that contract… The Habs offered him 5 mil and he turned it down!
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Kessel is not a blue chipper?
Top 30 in GPG this season, ahead of both Sedins, Toews, Eric Staal, St. Louis, M Richards, Horton, Poni, Zetterberg, Elias, Lecavalier etc etc etc.
I feel like Maximus in Gladiator every time Kessel gets slagged – “ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?!?”
You claim you don’t want to be right, but you refuse to see ANYTHING good about the Leafs. Kessel is a goal scorer. He’s in the top 30 in the league, out of the 839 (according to NHL stats) players who played at least 1 game this season. That’s the 96th percentile. A solid “A” almost “A+” player, who, according to you, is not a “blue chipper”
WHAT DOES HE HAVE TO DO TO MAKE PEOPLE HAPPY? SHIT MAGICALLY DELICIOUS RAINBOWS!?!?!?
fuck…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Mar 5, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I’m interested in who is ahead of him on that list?
Honest question…seriously I want to be convinced. I don’t see him leading a team to a cup. I’m very happy with him. I think he does his job very well. I dunno, maybe blue chipper isn’t the right word. Not THAT guy.
Kadri right know is the hope.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
just a bunch of nobodies like Ovi, Crosby, Parise, Kopitar, Stamkos, Kovy, Iginla, Nash etc.
nothing special…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Mar 5, 2010 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I’m gonna go ahead and rec that
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
I know this was aimed at MLM but I could probably face the same accusation. Look, I love Kessel. I’m wearing my “Hackey Night” shirt as we speak. I expect him to be one of the top 15 goal scorers in the NHL for the next 10 years.
But I still wouldn’t call him a “blue chipper”, which to me means someone who can be the best player on a Cup contending team. I likened him to Petr Bondra before: 081 GP, 503 G, 389 A, 892 Pts. That’s pretty awesome. But no one ever talked about Bondra as being one of the best 10 players in the league. If Petr Bondra—or Phil Kessel, I would suggest—is your best forward, you’re unlikely to be contending for a Cup. That’s not a knock on Phil.
As I said above, and as I think MLM agrees, there’s plenty of good to see. But there’s also plenty of work to be done (including getting a true #1 forward) and IMHO I think the effort is not as far along as it could be because of a couple questionable Burke moves. It’s certainly not as far along as Burke wanted it to be.
That doesn’t mean I don’t see hope for the medium- and long-term future or that I want to run Burke out of town or that I don’t love Phil Kessel. For chrissakes, earlier this year I quoted Clarence Worley’s line about Elvis from True Romance in reference to Phil in an email to a buddy.
Two Gladiator references in one thread, not bad.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
a "blue chipper"
is a guaranteed NHL level talent. Kessel is an NHL level talent.
That said, I tire of his trade being disected ad nauseum. I tire of his play being desected ad nauseum and I tire of the need for negativity and irrational expectations after every loss.
Seriously, if things upset you (colloquial “you” no one in particular) this much, stop watching. It’s just a game. If things are as shitty as “you” (colloquial) make them out to be, for pete’s sake STOP WATCHING. No one will think any less of you (again, colloquial)
i read this stuff every day, and it makes me think that some people here are under the impression that EA’s NHL game franchise is actually a simulator. The league doesn’t work like that. Guys that can score 30-35 goals a season are not a dime a dozen. A team that has been mismanaged for a decade at least, can not flip on a dime and magically reverse its fortunes.
For years people bitched about quick fixes and not developing players or going with youth, and now the Leafs are, and what’s the popular opinion? Quick fix! Fire Burke, he promised us a quick tunraround! Fire Wilson, he can’t win with an AHL level roster! WHARGARBLWHARGARBLWHARGARBL!!!!!!
Seriously. FUCK…
This is my last comment here for a while. I can not take this constant yo-yo cry baby shit. Take care gang. Maybe talk to you all on free agency day…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Mar 5, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
well said blurr, take it easy and enjoy your break, we’ll miss ya!
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yo dude relax a bit you don’t need to retire from the forums.
I do agree with you though and it’s a bit ridiculous to criticize the Kessel trade in my opinion simply because it’s what everyone has been bitching about for ever. We constantly traded picks for old guys so finally here we trade for a 21 yr old sniper who skates like the wind.
We only ever did that once in my lifetime. Sundin. That time we only had to trade our best D and the most popular leaf of all time to get him. 3 picks is a pittance compared to that. Kessel is a sick player. The draft picks are potentials. Kessel is pretty much the age of a draft pick. I don’t care if the Bruins get Hall. We got a sure thing.
Same goes for Phaneuf. 24 years old and a norris candidate and a sick D. For nothing in that deal because Sutter is on crack.
Since I’ve watched the Leafs we’ve had 3 capable GM’s. Fletcher 1, Quinn and Burke. Everyone else was a moron. The capables got us to the semis twice each. When we had morons we missed the playoffs. Have faith in Burke and stop lamenting a trade for a sure thing. Phil Kessel is not Tom Kurvers, he’s not Toskala, he’s not Kirk Muller and he’s not Brian Leetch at age 38. He’s 21 and he’s sick.
Sad to hear that
I’m not sure who you’re referring to but as probably the most negative person here the last couple days I think this reaction is a bit overblown. Maybe you’re reading forums elsewhere but the tone here, to me, has been overwhelmingly positive. I’d say 9 in 10 commenters are 100% behind Burke. And even those like me who are pointing out some concerns do so while recognizing that things are generally much better than under JFJ and the medium-term future looks good.
I hope we as Leafs fans can vent here about our frustrations as well as our glories and learn from each other about our favourite hockey team and mutual obsession. To me, however, learning more requires critical analysis at times, and I’ve certainly learned from reactions to my posts, particularly the posts that you apparently have perceived as negative.
Cheer up and see you after the draft.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
Wow! Sorry dude. I’m sure I’m one of those poeple you are referring to colloquially. I’m too married for video games, nevertheless franchise mode or anything like that. That suggestion is way off
I’ve never asked for anyone to be fired. You’re right it is just a sport. But I do love the Leafs and I’m not going to stop watching them. Too much invested. I’ve spent a lot of time, energy and money on the Leafs as a fan over the past 20 years. If I want to a criticize my 29th place team, that hasn’t made the playoffs in 5 seasons I don’t think that makes me crazy.
Sorry I’m not all sunshine and fuckin’ lollipops. Sorry my opinion differs from yours. Sorry I didn’t change my avatar to my favourite cartoon character. Sorry I don’t fit in around here.
My issue is and always has been – if anyone has been paying attention – it’s going to take a long time to make this team good again. If this team hopes to be a consistently good team in a salary capped NHL it’s going to take a while to get there. And most likely there will be some shitty seasons, where the best case scenario is sneaking into the playoffs.
I can see that. You can see that. When I hear Burke refer to the Anaheim model of “re-tooling” I question what he is seeing.
I think 67 Sound summarized anything else I’d like to say.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 6, 2010 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
feel free to be critical
that is not a problem here. I think blurr’s issue was the negativity towards Burke as a GM when every step he has taken (with a few debatables) has been generally seen as positive steps.
If I understand your main beef correctly you say that Burke was either way off on his ability to turn the team around(I respectfully disagree) or that he blew smoke up everyone’s ass and misled Leaf fans that this would somehow be a fairly quick and mostly painless transition.
That is your interpretation. Mine has always been this – his first priority is to make this team a winner and his second priority is to do this in the least possible time.
Just because the least possible time isn’t 2 seasons doesn’t mean we need to crap on him. I am sorry you misinterpreted his comments to say ‘we will be competing for a cup in 2-3 years’ when he promised a retool. Things didn’t work out as he planned so it will take longer. That possibility always existed.
Anyway, nothing I am writing will probably sway you but I had to get my point across.
One more thing – you do belong here. even when your opinion differs from the norm you still have the right to defend your arguments with facts. It is how we interpret the facts that give us our opinions.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 6, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
Amen, brother
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 6, 2010 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
Above comment was for blurr
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 6, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
I think there are two things at work here. Burke had hoped that he could make some deals and that hes defense would come together and he would get shoddy – not mind numbingly horrendous – goaltending.
Because of this he put some stock in a quick turnaround. If everything went good to great (Toskalol regressing even more, Jonas having heart issues and not being able to get into a groove, Komi being injured, Luke Schenn regression, the crazy bad start, etc were not in the plans) then contending for a playoff spot in a weak Eastern Conference certainly wasn’t pie in the sky dreams.
Basically, all the shitty things that went wrong this year – whether it be because of bad goaltending, the defense not playing well as a unit, injuries, many players not playing up to there potential, poor coaching decisions etc – set the Burke plan back a year. Before the start of the season I gave us a chance to compete for a playoff spot, but more so a chance in 2010-11 season and hopefully be very competitive in 11-12. Didn’t happen, all those expectations get pushed back another year.
Managing a team isn’t an easy thing – there are a lot of things you have to lay percentages on after collecting the best information from the most reliable sources. When you make those decisions there are still no guarantees that they will all pan out. Unfortunately this year a lot of things didn’t pan out. Is it possible to go back and predict the worst case scenario? Yes I suppose, but you would have to factor in that nearly everything you did somehow all went south.
Add to that the abyssmal situation that was left to him by JFJ and the questionable moves made by Fletcher and you end up with the perfect shitstorm that was this season.
Save for maybe Lou or Kenny Holland, how many people could have done a better job with what we had?
It’s easy to get on a guy who takes the GM job in Toronto – and we did that to JFJ. Most of it was deserved… Let’s give the team another year before we go stringing up Burke for his so-called ‘questionable’ moves.
Go back and tell me ANY of you saw that this was all going to turn bad – and not just a vague feeling but predictive to each situation.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yes…I know…everything that could go wrong did. I addressed that arguement earlier. It works for me…it shouldn’t for Burke.
My honest opinion when this season started and looking at Burke’s roster?
He’s gambling here. It could go well – and well meant sneaking into the playoffs, so yeah – or really bad – no playoffs and a lottery pick.
It’s all about re-tooling. JFJ was asked to re-tool as well. I had some faith that Burke would be better at re-tooling than JFJ.
But I was in favour of a more traditional approach of re-building.
To be sure – I am not unsatisfied with Burke, and I am willing to give him more time.
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions
One thing Burke has done is add players that should, in theory, contribute now and in the future. The defence signings fall into that category. He clearly wanted to stabilise the team with those signings but miscalculating Toskala’s terribleness and the shit luck of Gustavsson’s heart problems torpedoed that hope.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
indeed, and there are reasons some players (Beauch, Grabbo) got 3 year deals and others (Komi, Kessel) got 5. Some are stop gap, place holders and others are building blocks
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
The Ducks in 05-06 were miles ahead of the Leafs in both this season and the last. Hell, they seeded sixth in the playoffs that year. They already had established point producers in Selanne and McDonald (95 and 83 points respectively). We didn’t have anyone that could ever get close to breaking ppg on the season. They had…actual goaltenders. Not named “Vesa.” .911 for Giguere that year, and .910 for backup Bryzgalov.
Building from there was a matter of tinkering. Look at the list of “changes” made under the wikipedia page (linked below). Burke did one thing that year: Pick up Free Agent Scott Niedermeyer.
The Ducks in 05-06 looked like how I expect the leafs to look in 11-12. The only comparison you’ve drawn is how long Burke was there.
Problem is that the wikipedia page is about 5% complete.
For example – note this regarding Selanne:
Signed as a free agent by Anaheim, August 22, 2005.
That’s a Burke signing. There’s more. Last time I looked, he was responsible for their top 3 defensemen (Beauchemin was one of his pickups as well as Pronger) and most of their top scorers.
The “Burke didn’t do much” talk is just Hab fan spin.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
The Beauchemin-Federov was right after Burke took over, and he credits his scouting staff entirely on that one. He had little to no idea who Beauchemin was.
yeah, but he still signed the papers and made the call, who knows if Murray would have done that or blown off his scouts to pursue another player
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Part of being a good GM is listening to your staff and acting on their recommendations if a) the GM knows it’s also the right thing to do, or b) he doesn’t know for sure but trusts their judgement and shows faith in them.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
And Sens fan spin
For those fans in denial after losing the Cup to Burke ;)
Truculence...starting 10/1/09
Based on 5 mins at hockeyreference.com
Coach – Randy Carlyle (Burke hire)
Selanne (Burke signing)
Niedermayer (Burke signing)
Kunitz (Burke waiver claim)
Pronger (Burke trade)
Beauchemin (Burke trade)
Marchant (Burke trade)
Moen (Burke trade)
O’Donnell (Burke trade)
Can we please kill the “Burke just tinkered” meme?
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Than how can we expect to use the “Anaheim” approach of re-building?
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
You’re being obtuse.
The “Anaheim” approach is quite simply that tanking over multiple seasons isn’t required to build a championship team.
Burke gambled we’d make the playoffs. This season has been a shitshow. Cut your losses, move guys that aren’t the future, get back assets that could be. Next season the goal will probably be the same; we’ll just be rolling the dice that these kids outperform their contracts. Which is an approach that I prefer to locking in to 50-60 points a year from the likes of Stajan, Poni, and Blake at $3M + each.
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
Mirtle’s writte buckets about how Burke made that championship team.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Can you please define what your definitions are of Plan A and Plan B?
I’m not trying to be facetious, I’d just like to better understand your position to further the debate.
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
I interpreted it as:
Plan a) “Re-tool” – keep the veteran core, add skill pieces when they become available.
Plan b) Sell-off assets like crazy and get the youngest team in the league and spend 2-3 years developing internally, letting the kids play.
All the while getting as many “free” assets as he can (college/Europe/Vikingstad)
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
>:(
He is immortal
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
Because HE… IS… VIKINGSTAD!
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
artistic rendering
not pictured the lamenting ladies
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
This is pretty accurate
Put another way: Plan A is be fringe playoff team this year, contender next year, serious contender by 2011/12.
Plan B is blow it up and suck for 3 years. Which is what you’re looking at now. Hopefully we’re in year 2 and not year 1.
Signing Komi and Beauch, and trading for Kessel, only makes sense for Plan A (because if you’re going to suck for 3 yrs the two #1s are worth more than Kessel). Look, I love Phil but there isn’t anyone outside of Leafs fans who currently think that deal was anything but an absolute heist by the Bs as it has played out.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
absolute heist by the Bs
True, but they’ve fallen pretty far having lost their 1 sniper. They may have won the battle (the trade) but they’re losing the war (shot at the Cup)
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
It’s not like he’s the only player that’s left. Axelsson is not on the team for the first time in 11 years, and while paille has been playing like him I don’t think he’s got the veteran intangibles blah blah blah.
Then again now we’ve got so many draft picks cam neely can use them as toilet paper.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 5, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Boston, Edmonton and Anaheim are so loaded with draft picks they have no idea what they’re going to do with them all on draft day.
It’s going to be like Christmas morning.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
I wonder if the Bruins will have a draft party…hmmmm. I should check into that.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 5, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
My guess
is it will involve a lot of champagne.
Leafs draft party: a lot of……. crying men drinking Jack Daniels til we puke.
Who’s in?
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Both sound like a great time.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 5, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
there’s one problem with having all of those draft picks. All of those good young kids are going to be coming off of their entry level deals around the same time (within a year or two). That’s a lot of money. Think Boston can keep guys like Chara and Savard and Lucic and Sturm when they have to sign Hall and whomever from 2011 to 5-7 million dollar deals? I don’t. Edmonton is even worse off, IF MPS and Eberle become solid players
well you are assuming all the players come into the bigs at the same time, there is still a pretty good chance they will be staggered a few years
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
i’d go as far as saying it was a great deal for the Bruins “absolute heist” is reserved for trades like Bertuzzi for Luongo, or Yashin for Spezza Chara and whatever.
Boston will probably get a couple pretty good NHLers out of the deal and Kessel may never score 30 goals again but it is a little premature to say that the Bruins have guarenteed owned the Leafs here
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Let me see if I understand you correctly. In your mind, Burke says something like to this to himself:
“I’m gonna move out a couple of vets I don’t see being a solution, and I’m gonna beef up the D, add the best goalie outside the NHL, and roll the dice. If we don’t get in, I’m gonna gut it like a fish and rebuild through the draft.
Oh, and I’m also going to kneecap my ability to rebuild through the draft by trading three picks for a 21 year old who scored 36 goals. So I’m going to add a 36 goal scorer, add a few D, add a new goalie, fix all my teams glaring weaknesses on paper, and push for the playoffs. And if that doesn’t work, I’m gonna blow it all up and start over, because fuck it, I have a 5 year contract."
Does that sound about right?
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
Plan A – Torpedoed by goalies.
there isn’t anyone outside of Leafs fans who currently think that deal was anything but an absolute heist by the Bs as it has played out.
Because there isn’t anyone outside of Leafs fans that aren’t eager to dance on their grave. Players haven’t even been drafted let alone developed. It’s a heist in progress at best. Ed Norton is in the building but he still might end up with an empty case.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
now THAT is a reference ladies and gents, take notes
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
what part of the veteran core has burke kept? Kaberle, the guy he has shopped like crazy when he could (last draft)? Poni? Stempniak? Finger?
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
so you are saying that he started the transition last trade deadline when he shipped out two of his best vets in Antro and Kubina and last summer before the total suckage that this year is when he tried to move kabby?
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
No. Antro was let go and Kubina was dealt to free room for Komi and Beauch. So not making them younger, just retooling.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 5, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, but resigning Antro and keeping Kubina would be part of the “keeping the veteran core” after that trade only 2 or 3 leafs had more than 2 years on teh squad, not a very good veteran core
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I think, to me, Plan A was turn it around quickly and have a cup contender in 2 seasons. That would be next year.
I think Plan B is – it’s going to take a little longer than 2 seasons to turn this mess around.
I think Plan B was the right plan from the moment Cliff took over for JFJ. I think MLSE instructed BB, like they did JFJ, to make the playoffs while re-stocking organizational depth with assests, i.e. re-tooling.
I think Burke got a 5 year contract, so he should have a 5 year plan. I think his initial 5 year plan looked like this. Be competitive in 2 seasons. Make playoff revenue for the remaining 3. I think his mandate is set by MLSE.
I also think John Mayers is awesome for calling Jessica Simpson sexual napalm
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt plan A turned this team into a cup contender in 2 years… That’s crazy talk.
3 maybe competing in the playoffs and pushing hard… but 2 years to a cup contender?
I don’t know the mind of Burke, but I doubt he was that deluded, especially with the cards he was dealt.
That’s your interpretation of it tho.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
“I doubt plan A turned this team into a cup contender in 2 years… That’s crazy talk.
3 maybe competing in the playoffs and pushing hard… but 2 years to a cup contender?"
Fair. I think Burke had a major task set in front of him coming to Toronto. And using Anaheim as the measuring stick – that’s him not me, he continues to make the reference – is illogical. I think Burke gambled on this season, lost and has to go to Plan B.
That’s easy to admit right?
Wendel Killer Joseph
by MapleLeafMole on Mar 5, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
He said he wanted to do a retool like Anaheim, he never stamped a hard timeline on it. Anyone analyzing the situation could see that it was going to take longer to turn the Leafs around that it did to turn the Ducks into Cup champions.
You have to add some flexibility in the semantics of the situation. I don’t see us on a plan B – just an extended version of plan A – which I will admit may lean more towards a rebuild than a retool.
You haven’t brought it up specifically, but many others had the general attitude of ‘we shouldn’t have paid so much for Kessel because we were not ready to compete with a player like him.’
The thing is, you can’t wait for players like that to come available. Last year he knew he had a shot at a 21 year old 30+ goal scorer… there is no way in hell that we can project that three years from now when we ‘have the pieces’ that a player like Kessel will be available to us. Burke would have loved to make this deal when the Leafs were starting to contend, but the situation didn’t provide that opportunity.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Plan B isn’t tanking. That’s where you and 67 seem to think the logical conclusion lies.
Plan B is that Burke has to do more re-tooling.
Resident Capologist
Toskala Cap Counter - RIP
plan A 2.0
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
the plan formerly known as Plan A
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 5, 2010 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Plan A3: Balvenie Double Cask
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
I think Burke took a look at what he had, saw some potential to re-tool while not ham-stringing himself going forward and it didn’t work out.
And John Mayers is crazy but that made me laugh.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Mar 5, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
I think there is a HUGE difference in what Brian Burke says in front of the cameras and what Brian Burke says behind the scenes FWIW.
You mean like
To cameras: “I have not and will not ask Kaberle to waive his no-trade clause”
to Kaberle: “You waive that f*&$ing clause RIGHT NOW if I get a good deal for you”
To cameras: “I’d make the Kessel deal again tomorrow, even if Boston drafts Taylor Hall”
To himself: “FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU—-”
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Burke says that Free agency day is like his draft day to rebuild our team. The problem is who are we going to get? Kovalchuk will cost too much, marleau doesn’t like Wilson. So that leaves Colby Armstrong and Raffi Torres. ughhhhhhhh I don’t think free agency day will propell us too much.
Ya well if we see the free agency situation I’m sure Burke sees it too.
I’ve been looking at the precarious upcoming 2010/2011 cap situation and pending RFAs that other teams may not be able to afford and may consider trading. It’s the only real leverage we have, and unfortunately at this point, our only tradable asset is Kaberle.
If the cap drops by 2m or so, some teams are, how you say…. f@*&ed.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
the only type of players I can see Burke going after UFA wise are replacements as needed for roll players, if he goes top end talent hunting it will be trade accessed
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
the real plan.
Don’t worry guys, when the Bruins can’t resign Hall/Seguin when they are RFA’s cause of chiarelli not managing his cap again we will trade two firsts and a second for him too. Don’t fret, he’ll be a Leaf
no thank you
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 5, 2010 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
better getting 3 good years out of one of them than having them daigle you!
Who wants to go to the Olive Garden?
by JaredFromLondon on Mar 5, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
also no thank you
also PATRIK STEFAN YOU OUGHTTA BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Mar 5, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
i share blurr’s frustration (a few posts above). this team was a complete fucking mess and only looked as borderline as it did the first few years post-lockout because of Mats. mats is gone, and what was left behind was a big pile of shit + tomas kaberle. burke has fucking blown this team apart – kulemin is the second longest serving member for god’s sake! what more did people expect??? ‘we need to get younger, we need to develop prospects’. he’s trying to do that, and people are saying he’s a failure after 1 game. it’s infuriating.
also – for the love of god, no more shit-talking kaberle. if you hope he’s traded, that’s great, i can understand why you’d feel that way. the right trade could definitely help this team move forward. but let’s be clear (and let’s repeat the same damn rants i had when mats was leaving): he doesn’t owe this team a god damned thing. he signed a CHEAP contract and got a no-trade clause in return. he has every right to exercise it, and that doesn’t make him a douche. he knows he can get traded come june and have no control over it, clearly he’s willing to take that chance – which to me means he still hopes he can have a future here, which is admirable. he’s been playing in Toronto longer than a lot of people on this forum have been following this team – it’s completely classless of you to shit on him for trying to be loyal.
- end beer-fueled rant -
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
by daoust on Mar 5, 2010 10:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Mats
I think that is the biggest revelation that haters of Mats have to realise. He was keeping this entire team together! Seriously, if he had never retired (yes, retired right after 2007-2008) who knows how this team would look.
I think part of the negativity is that we are so conditioned to having our prospects turn out like shit that we are ignoring that, while we do have a lot of late round picks coming up, we also have been really good of late of turning them into useful NHLers!
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
never mind the haters… i loved the guy and even I’m realizing now that I underestimated how important he was to the team. you know what i miss most? seeing mats on the ice in clutch moments and knowing that he could take charge and make things happen. i love kessel, but i don’t see that in him yet. i hope it comes. maybe kadri will be that guy.
you’re right, we don’t have many prospect success stories to look to for inspiration. and i understand the negativity and frustration that comes from watching this team tread water for 5 years (or 10, or 15, or 20…). but like blurr said – this isn’t a video game, this is real life. you can’t turn a garbage team into a contender in a year, and you certainly can’t do it without taking risks. burke has gotten rid of almost every bad contract we had, and turned every expiring contract into something, anything – even it it is just a 4th round pick or whatever. it’s remarkable when you think about it. has any team ever been blown up as fast or as ruthlessly as this team has? JFJ and cliffy must be embarrassed.
bottom line – no one knows if he’s going to be successful. if you say you know for sure he is or isn’t you’re full of shit (although saying he won’t be is the safe bet , seeing as 29 of 30 teams don’t win the cup every year). the young guys could turn into quality players in 2 or 3 years, or they could be busts. phaneuf may never regain his form, or he could win a norris. we may never get quality goaltending like we did from cujo and eddie and the cat, or gustavsson might win the vezina. but fuck, if you can’t realize that burke is at least giving this team a CHANCE to succeed, then i don’t know what to tell you.
(sorry for the ranting and vulgarities. that’s what friday nights are for though.)
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Rant on, my friend
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 6, 2010 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
this team was a complete fucking mess and only looked as borderline as it did the first few years post-lockout because of Mats. mats is gone, and what was left behind was a big pile of shit + tomas kaberle. burke has fucking blown this team apart – kulemin is the second longest serving member for god’s sake! what more did people expect??? ‘we need to get younger, we need to develop prospects’. he’s trying to do that, and people are saying he’s a failure after 1 game. it’s infuriating.
YES! Can this be the site’s new tag-line?
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 5, 2010 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely agree that Kaberle deserves the NMC because he took below market. That’s why it worries me a bit when people talk about “Kaberle will take below market without a NMC and we can re-sign him”. If he does he’s not just loyal, he’s a saint—I can’t imagine why someone would give a hometown discount without some contractual assurance that we don’t then turn around and trade him somewhere else. If we want Kabby without a NMC/NTC, he can and should demand market value.
Also agree about Mats. I remember wondering after his retirement if he was in fact the greatest Leaf ever, based purely on talent and longevity. Our deterioration since he left only confirms that. God I wish Kessel had come along 10 years earlier. To think what Mats could have done with him…
That said I’m not going to stop questioning Burke moves when I think it’s appropriate to do so. I’ve been following this team for thirty years and he’s at a minimum in the top 5 of GMs we’ve had during that time, but he isn’t perfect. It’s not like any of us can change anything but I enjoy the back and forth and trying to figure out what worked and what didn’t.
Go Leafs Go.
by The '67 Sound on Mar 6, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
The discussion is half the fun.. it makes us reconsider our own opinions and helps everyone moderate their thinking.
It is why this is the best website ever.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Mar 6, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
But I think that we need to be aware of the difference between criticism and cynicism.
Criticism is welcome, but you’ve got to have something to back it up. That’s one of the best things about this, diligent research. (I wish there was an endnote option sometimes)
If you’re upset about the return Burke got on his assets, show me WHY you think he could have gotten more. Saying he didn’t get fair market value is reasonable, but I want to see the evidence that belief is based on.
"All I ask of you is one thing, and I’m asking this particularly of young people: please don’t be cynical. I hate cynicism- it’s my least favorite quality and it doesn’t lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you’re kind, amazing things will happen." 1
1: O’Brien, Conan
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Mar 6, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
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