Does This Sound Familiar?
by Chemmy on Apr 21, 2010 11:04 AM EDT
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PrintThis post contains baseball but it's not really about baseball; it's about being GM of a sports team. While in Anaheim Brian Burke talked to Bill Belichick, head coach of the NFL's New England Patriots and one of the most respected team builders in professional sports today, about whether or not he should pull the trigger on the Pronger deal. Belichick told him to trade the picks and use up the cap space as long as the player was the right player.
Theo Epstein, GM of the Boston Red Sox, is by all accounts a good GM. He won two World Series with the cursed Sox by the age of 34. The Red Sox have stumbled out of the gate just like the Leafs did and there was a Boston Globe article yesterday that might seem familiar to a lot of you even if the names are different:
"It's not the time for excuses or sugar-coating it. We've played bad baseball. It's a bad stretch of play and when you do that at the start of the season, it looks even worse," [Epstein] said.
"We haven't played well, there are no excuses for how we've played. We haven't played smart baseball; we haven't really played aggressive baseball."
Unlike the Leafs most reasonable people expect the Red Sox to go to the playoffs and it's this difference that paints Epstein and Burke in different lights but check out some of the things Epstein says:
What makes us feel better is we know we're better than this. Players have track records as individuals and you know what they're going to do. There will be some guys who under-perform and some who over-perform. It's not going to be every player. We'll get back to our level. As an organization we have a track record. We have a standard we need to live to up to. One way or another we're going to get there collectively.
Does this remind you of our defense being constantly out of position?
The most important thing you can do defensively is make the routine play. There have been games we lost because we haven't made the routine play.
And finally:
It's not like we've lost faith in all our players all of a sudden. It's not the way it is. We believe in these guys. But at the same time you have to be realistic about and recognize we haven't been worth a (expletive) so far. Excuse my French, sorry about that. We haven't played well at all so far. No point in sugar-coating it or making excuses or hiding from it. You have to own it.
Worried that Brian Burke is a blowhard who doesn't know the game? He said a lot of the things Epstein is saying now during the Leafs' slow start. Sometimes smart GMs assemble a team that falls flat on his face. Epstein won't be shown the door for one poor season and neither will Burke. The true test for our GM going forward is how he gets this team to bounce back from likely the worst season most of us have watched in its entirety.
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I am a Red sox fan and I dislike Theo. He could spend more than he really does.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 21, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
You dislike a guy who made any number of smart moves to bring Boston a World Series title? Come on.
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He’s made so many mistakes and I het his mentality.
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by bestbostonsports on Apr 21, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I might never criticize the GM that ends the Leafs’ Cup drought let alone an 86 year one…twice.
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I’m going to be honest here, when the Leafs finally win the cup, odds are I will likely criticize/question at least one of the off-season moves in the days/weeks/months following the Cup win.
I’d like to think I’m bigger than that and that winning the Cup would give a franchise a grace period, but I’d be lying.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
we would expect nothing less.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
most people will. Just as soon as a season ends, the next one begins. Not only do you want your team to win, but to keep winning. It’s just the nature of sports.
can you imagine winning a couple in a row?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Apr 21, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Considering I’m having a hard time imagining the Leafs making the playoffs, I’m going to have to answer “no” to that one.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
the world will burn
and I will laugh
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on Apr 21, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m going to be honest here, when the Leafs finally win the cup, odds are I will likely criticize/question at least one of the off-season moves in the days/weeks/months following the Cup win.
May the Flying Spaghetti Monster grant us these troubles.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Apr 21, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
praise raptor jesus
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on Apr 21, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. For example, one of the latest Bill Simmons articles I read has him going back on something he’s claimed for years; he used to say fans should have a 5-year “grace period” free from complaining about their teams after they win a championship, but it doesn’t make sense to him anymore because he can’t manage to do it himself.
It’s just too hard to do… like birky says, once your team wins one, you want them to win another, and another and so on.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
Bill Simmons
I found the problem.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Apr 21, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
When he doesn’t talk about Boston all the fucking time, I really enjoy reading his work.
Not Liking Nikolai Kulemin Means You Have No Soul
It’s clear he cares a lot about his subject matter, there’s a lot of passion in what he writes.
But yeah, his Boston-centric-ness is a real problem.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
It’s clear he cares a lot about his subject matter
Unless it’s hockey. Then he has no clue what the hell he’s talking about.
He bandwagons onto the Bruins during the playoffs and I would honestly rather he not.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Apr 21, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Howard Berger’s latest blog, when the Leafs finally win the cup the fans will have gotten what we have so desperately wanted and will no longer feel the need to follow the team anymore. So although you might not know it now, you won’t question any Leaf moves because you just won’t care. Of course Berger-logic also tells us that lack of fan support will result in a more competitive team so I think a dynasty is a real possibility.
by Mirinov's Nose on Apr 21, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
aggressive….baseball?
does not compute
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on Apr 21, 2010 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
Sigh. Forget that the quotes are about baseball you big idiot.
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I like soup
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on Apr 21, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
with carrots in it?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
you know it
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on Apr 21, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
mmmm carrots….
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
thats what she said
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on Apr 21, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you think Epstein’s next move is to threaten to waive players and then stand idly by for 60 days while the team drops to the bottom’s of the standings?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Probably
They spent a lot of the offseason overhauling the defence, but so far (at least against the steal) it’s not working. Definitely some parallels.
But then again, they don’t have a cap and can pretty much spend at will and are also a team capable of making the playoffs.
I am the commenter formerly known as Belligerent Burkie
Follow me on twitter @CoolJ90 or add me to XBox Live - CoolJ90
Working on a post about whether we can/should take Burke at face value when he says stuff like this. Do you have a reference for this Burkeism?
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Apr 21, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
this stuff is hard to find, I was thinking it might require someone wading through the archives of videos on mapleleafs.com to find it.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
actually
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
facepalm
“We believe in Vesa,” Burke said. “We’ve created competition, but we expect Vesa to start. We solved his physical problems. He told me he’s felt the best he has in five years, so that’s not a factor at all.”
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
hate vesa toskala, so much
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on Apr 21, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
That seems an awful lot like “no more excuses”, doesn’t it?
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this is true.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
the links for a lot of these don't work
but this one seems like it’s about Vesa too:
“It’s not because he’s earned it,” Burke said. “It’s because we have to see what we have in him.”
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
but I can’t find anything about putting vets on waivers.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought that was in reference to Pogge when he was called up…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Apr 21, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
ahhh
I think you’re correct. Some of the articles have been removed, so it’s hard to find context.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yikes, that’s what I was afraid of. This post is going to be tougher than I thought.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Just to play a bit of devil's advocate
Around the time of the quote (november) the leafs got Kessel back and went on a bit of a tear, and got within 2 points of eigth. So they turned things around a bit. Also, remember all those “moral victories”, great effort but no finish where we outworked the opposition but lost in OT/SO? Burke said he would reward hard work, hence the patience with guys like Blake.
It was that second losing skid where the team looked REALLY BAD, and that started end of dec/early jan. 1 Month later we all know what happened
Hooray for Theo!
Its been really disappointing seeing the Sox get off to this terrible start, but I don’t think there’s a GM in baseball I’d want on my team more.
by TheOtherAndrew on Apr 21, 2010 12:58 PM EDT reply actions
Quick and dirty search for jrwendelmanheroesinrehabwarwalker
Burke told Sun Media on Wednesday that his patience with elements of this 3-11-5 team has just about snapped, particularly with non-producing scorers on one-way contracts. He said if the drought continues, he will very quickly move to put one or more on waivers with the purpose of sending them to the Marlies and if they’re claimed, that’s life.
Burke said Friday he has “some irons in the fire” as he tries to work out a deal, but if he can’t move bodies that way, he will jettison deadwood to the minors..
“If I can’t make a trade, that’s going to happen soon,” said Burke of a dramatic demotion
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
my problem with the first quote is that it’s not a direct quote from Burke, it’s put into the journalist’s words, and we know how they state things that are half-truths.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear what you’re saying, but the Star reports pretty much the same quote from Burke one day later…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
but in both instances, and from what I can find on thestar.com it seems more as if he’s responding to a question about willingness to waive vets, not stating that he intends to waive them.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
here it is
"If we don’t start winning, we have two options," said Burke, who was back in Toronto Wednesday. "One, we make a trade and if I could make one that puts us in the playoffs I would. But they’re hard to make (in the salary cap world) and I think there have only been three of them around the league so far this season.
"Two, we send somebody on a one-way down and call up the kids. That’s the next step. We waive them and send them down and if we lose ‘em (on a waiver claim), we lose ‘em
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
not in November
but he did January 31st.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
60 days after he said: win or else there will be trades or waivers.
60 days.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
yup
but you know that if he was asked about it, that’s how he would spin it.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s what I want in a GM, spin.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
hence the need for jrwendelman’s article
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe if Burke didn’t position himself as Mr. Straightshooter I’d be more forgiving.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
heh, oh I get your frustration. I just remind myself he’s a lawyer over and over, and it all makes a little more sense.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t think Burke says much more than what’s already known.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Apr 21, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Blurr,
For me it’s not a question of Burke saying anything new, it’s a matter of Burke following through on what he’s said.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
"It would give us a boost but because we are kind of limited, we can’t send anybody down," Wilson said following today’s practice at the Mastercard Centre. "That’s what everybody doesn’t seem to realize."
Pretty much meaning that Burke’s “waiver” threat was completely hollow from the beginning.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d love to know why Wilson believed they couldn’t send anybody down.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
me too
I’d love to know why Wilson also believe that Toronto couldn’t re-build in the manner LA did, but these things appear to be questions we cannot get answers to.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
i can’t say for certain he didn’t try.
that’s my point about the 5 trades. the market wasn’t there. i’d hate for him to make a trade for trades sake, especially when his bargaining position is at its lowest.
as far as the waivers, who knows. perhaps the culture of entitlement was still an issue according to Wilson, and so Burke was trying to go to bat for his coach.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Apr 21, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
If the market isn’t there, don’t threaten trades.
If you can’t/won’t waive these guys, don’t threaten waivers.
Probably be good if your coach openly contradict you.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’m really starting to believe that Burke’s comments have little to nothing to do with his actual intent with the team, but are all media positioning to send messages to the team/players/other GMs.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
between 11/18
and 1/31, there were 5 trades. One of them was Tlusty for Paradis. The biggest names to be traded were Latendresse for Pouliot (MTL and MIN). It doesn’t sound like there was much of a market for trades, especially for NHL caliber players.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Apr 21, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not surprised. The cap has made it very tough to trade with the vast majority of trades coming at the deadline and the draft. Burke is well aware of this having pushed the league to expand what can be traded under the CBA in an effort to open the market.
Recognizing the gridlock, you’d think Burke would realize he was painting himself into a corner.
Kinda like claiming no jobs are safe at training camp…oh, wait.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
you sound like someone who expected the Leafs to be good this year…
:P
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Apr 21, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I figured they come in around 25th.
My big mis-read was believing Burke would follow-through on his threats.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
“One of the biggest problems last year was the sense of entitlement here,” Burke said yesterday, at a media conference to introduce new Toronto Marlies head coach Dallas Eakins.
“I want every player under contract to realize that I will not hesitate to send a player on a one-way (contract) to the minors if he’s not prepared (to play hard).”
Yeah, that is a big pill to swallow.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I will not hesitate to send a player on a one-way (contract) to the minors if he’s not prepared (to play hard)."
the question for me is; who didn’t “play hard” on the Leafs?
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Apr 21, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
heh, that becomes an argument based on opinion, and there’s probably no way we’d all see it the same way Burke did.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Apr 21, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome. Thanks much, and noted.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Woops Totally meant to post this down here
Just to play a bit of devil’s advocate
Around the time of the quote (november) the leafs got Kessel back and went on a bit of a tear, and got within 2 points of eigth. So they turned things around a bit. Also, remember all those "moral victories", great effort but no finish where we outworked the opposition but lost in OT/SO? Burke said he would reward hard work, hence the patience with guys like Blake.
It was that second losing skid where the team looked REALLY BAD, and that started end of dec/early jan. 1 Month later we all know what happened
I see what you're going for
But to be honest, there’s a universe between where the Leafs were in mid-november and the Sox today.
for starters, there’s 162 baseball games a year. Starting off 5-9 is roughly the equivalent of the Leafs when they followed a season-opening OTL to the Habs with another loss. Not at all panic stations. That 0-8 start is just completely impossible to come back from in an 80-game season.
Secondly, the expectations of those two teams were wildly different. Leafs were, best case, a low-seed playoff team. they proved to be much much worse than that. The Sox consider themselves to be not just playoff teams, but perennial world series contenders. We freaked out at the abysmal start because we saw the Kessel trade hanging above us like a Damoclean sword.
Courtesy of their two world series wins, Sox fans are a long way away from having their fanbase constantly on a short fuse and once again dreading where the next tautology certain to bludgeon them to death for the next decade will come from.
In short, our pain from this season is more than Red Sox Nation’s by a factor of about 11.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
call me when the Red Sox are 10-50 or something
is what i’m saying. By then we might be at the jaw-dropping level of clusterfuckery that was Leaf fans in about November.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
I have to say I agree for the most part. I certainly see the parallels and the Boston Red Sox are relevant in the context that ESPN has the BoSox featured quite prominently for their poor start. But a baseball season that is only three weeks old is not equivalent to the horrific start the Leafs endured. The Boston Red Sox will not lose 90 games, but the Leafs virtually shot themselves out of the playoffs with a 10 game winless streak. The sentiments are there, but the urgency and pessimism is a lot more manageable when there are about 145+ games let to go in a baseball season.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I think everyone knew (if they didn’t already) that the Leafs were in trouble when they lost their first 8 games of the season, roughly 10% of the schedule. So the Red Sox would have had to go 0-16 to be perfectly equivalent, record-wise anyway, putting aside all the other differences Chemmy alluded to.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
Darn
I was really hoping there would be more about baseball after the jump.
I was looking for some OPS or UZR or WAR numbers.
Drat.
Always follow the Crown Trools
ops is at war with uzr
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
by Chuck Diesel on Apr 21, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Poor Red Sox and they’re 160 million dollar payroll that 21 other teams can’t come close to.
Baseball’s so flawed it’s ridiculous.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
I disagree
The Red Sox and Yankees payroll only effects the other teams in the AL East chances of making the playoffs. And the Rays have proven that they can hang with them regardless.
Every other division in the league is anybody’s guess, and the MLB is 2nd to only the NFL in terms of revenue.
Always follow the Crown Trools
fair enough.
But how long can the Rays hang with these two? As long as there is no salary cap the ONLY perennial contenders in the AL East will always be the Red Sox and the Yankees.
The Jays, Orioles and Rays have a one, MAYBE two year window to try contend for the playoffs, until their top players get poached by the big money teams, whereas the Red Sox and Yankees can contend every year.
And while MLB itself does make money, that doesn’t mean it’s lack of salary cap and awful draft system aren’t flaws.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
I agree about MLB’s need for a more balance scheduling, and even an additional wild card/playoff spot. I think this would mitigate the huge AL East disadvantage for the Orioles, Jays, and Rays. I don’t, however, agree with a straight salary cap because it unfairly punishes teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. for spending money on the baseball team they clearly make in revenue. Why should these teams not put money into their organization because teams like Florida can’t make as much revenue?
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
i've long advocated
for a system of revenue-sharing with actual teeth over a salary cap, in any pro sport, really.
In the interest of “fairness” i don’t like to see well-run teams constantly picked for talent, but I dont’ like to see wel-run, high revenue teams get constantly crippled at the knees. In effect, they’re punished for being successful.
A legitimate revenue sharing system would be vastly superior to the cap system we have in hockey, for example. Short of a transfer-payment system like they have in soccer (where other teams in the premier league in effect become farm teams for the big boys) it seems like the best solution for baseball. It MLSE wasn’t limited in what it could spend on its own team but instead had to cut a cheque to some BS team every year, i think fans of both teams would be better off.
If the loser franchise can’t manage to be successful on the ice after having their expenses at least covered, it won’t be because of money, it’s because of mismanagement. Once the curtain is pulled away, fans would realize it and act as they see fit.
Removing the crutch of money from sports teams would give them a lot less ways to spew BS to fans.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Lind Love
Not if they sign a contract like Lind:
http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2010/4/3/1403618/jays-sign-adam-lind-to-four-year
The more I see of man, the more I like dogs. -Madame de Staël
The Rays are good like the Penguins and Wash. Draft at the top for a billion years.
Not sure of the numbers now but Clemens made more money in NY than the entire Devil Ray’s MLB team back in the day. There is an uber soft cap in baseball were a tax is paid to the rest of the MLB teams for each dollar one team spends above the cap. At one point the Yankees paid more in tax then TB had salary. TB was Oiler quality at the time though.
HATE BOSOX AND YANKS, it is the right thing to do.
The more I see of man, the more I like dogs. -Madame de Staël
I sound like a Jays fan...
Which is true.. poor Marcum, another wasted start
The more I see of man, the more I like dogs. -Madame de Staël
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