On Norris Nominees, Patience and Hope

Interesting note.

As a 21 yr old, Mike Green's stat line was 70 GP, 2 G, 10 A, 12 P, -10, 15:23. The Caps finished 27th.

As a 22 yr old, Duncan Keith was 81 9 12 21 -11 23:26. The Hawks finished 28th.

As a 20 yr old, Luke Schenn was 79 5 12 17 +2 16:52.

Schenn is unlikely to ever be as good as Green or Keith. But his numbers were as good or better than those of Keith and Green when those guys were older than him.

As for Doughty... holy crap is he going to be good.

about 2 years ago The '67 Sound 65 comments 0 recs |

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Doughty

That 2008 NHL Draft is starting to look a lot deeper than I originally thought. Doughty, Stamkos, Carlson, Schenn, etc. It’s looking like 2003 all over again.

by Frag on Apr 23, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions

Notables from 2003 Draft:
1. MA Fleury
2. Eric Staal
3. Nathan Horton
~~4. Nikolei Zherdev~~
5. Thomas Vanek
6. Milan Michalek
7.

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by nhlcheapshot on Apr 23, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Damnit posted before I finished.

Point was 2003 was incredibly deep, I think it’s pushing it to say 2008 will be the same. Every draft has 5 or 6 great players emerge.

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by nhlcheapshot on Apr 23, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions

Now: Stamkos, Doughty, Myers, Bogosian, Schenn, Bailey, Karlsson, Del Zotto, Carlson

Future: Pietrangelo, Filatov, Wilson, Hodgson (depending on his back), Colborne, Pickard, Sbisa, Eberle, Grachev, Markstrom, and others I may have missed.

It might not be as epic as 2003, but it looks pretty darn close.

by Frag on Apr 23, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

heres hoping that the 2010 draft class has 0 full time nhlers!

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by Matt_Roberts on Apr 23, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions

before the 3rd round anyway

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 23, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Ya, after I typed it i realized I didn’t actually believe myself what I was typing. A bunch of the great players who have emerged didn’t do so within 2 years of their draft year. It could end up being as good or better.

In 3 years it will be easier to judge which prospects pan out.

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by nhlcheapshot on Apr 23, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I watched Hodgson destroy Kingston in the OHL playoffs. Don’t worry about his back.

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by Another Good Kingston Boy on Apr 23, 2010 5:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

if he was a Leaf draft pick or property I would be petrified of his back

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 23, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Hodgson is out again with a back injury after playing against Kingston:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Mystery-surround-Cody-Hodgson-90624174.html

Back injuries can come back to haunt players for the rest of their careers. Back injuries can return over and over again, leading to possibly multiple times on the IR. It’s especially bad in Hodgson’s case since he’s so young.

I honestly hope this injury doesn’t hamper Hodgson’s career, as he’s a very good player with a great career ahead of him. However, I’d still be worried about his back.

by Frag on Apr 23, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions

E
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D
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by birky on Apr 23, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions

I still think that he has a chance at a career, but having a back injury like in Hodgson’s case doesn’t help.

by Frag on Apr 23, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Bingo

Daze would have been a perennial all-star and 30 goal scorer and in the new NHL he’d have been a beast if not for a shitty back.

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by PPP on Apr 23, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions

He was a great talent for sure. I still think of him as a good player who limped out a half-decent career all things considered.

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by Chuck Diesel on Apr 23, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Mattias Tedenby!

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by Kevin Sellathamby on Apr 23, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, he’s pretty good too. lol

by Frag on Apr 23, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Weird thing about that draft is the best picks were lower in the round. If you redid the draft Perry, Getzlaf, Parise, Richards and Carter go ahead of all the guys listed above except Staal.

by The '67 Sound on Apr 23, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions

that is also another reason not to dismass middle to late 1st round picks….

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Apr 23, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

And another reason to hire the best scouts on earth. Especially when all our picks are in the 3rd round or later.

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by nhlcheapshot on Apr 23, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

It could also mean that a team would do well amassing as many picks as possible, first round or otherwise.

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by bkblades on Apr 23, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I hope Burke acquires a 2nd or late 1st for Kaberle. If he gets a 2nd, Jared Knight I think will be a good pick and is a Burke-esque kind of player. Plus, he’s got chemistry with Kadri.

by Frag on Apr 23, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions

I hope that he somehow works his voodoo and manages to pick Galiev from my hometown Sea Dogs. We’re 1-for-1 on awesome Sea Dogs picks!

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by Brunswick Bruiser on Apr 24, 2010 12:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

As for Doughty… holy crap is he going to be good.

Its things like this that help me forget that the Kings completely shit the bed in the 3rd period of Game 4. Thanks for that.

As far as Schenn, you’re comparing apples to oranges. He’s a complete bastard to play against… think of Pronger minus the Pronger Physics. When I say that, I mean it as a compliment…. I mean no disrespect to YourLAS. :)

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by Matt Reitz on Apr 23, 2010 4:56 PM EDT reply actions

Buffalo as Myers love that is pretty unsustainable… I mean the kid is good now and will only get better… he will probably be a top defenceman for many years..

I posted a summary of this a few weeks ago and I said ‘but he will never get a sniff at a Norris as long as this guy is in the league’ and I embedded a picture of Doughty.

Also, Schenn should only get better.. he is starting to get more confident with shooting the puck and stepping in to the offensive zone at times. Once his hitting gets back up to his WHL level, we will have a rock on the back end for quite some time.

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by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Apr 23, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Why does Myers need Norris trophies when he’s got the Vezina on lock-down for the next decade?

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by clrkaitken on Apr 23, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

And the Richards, the Conn Smyth… they may end up having to invent a personal version of the Stanley Cup for him…

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by Wan Ihite on Apr 24, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions

They recently had all those renamed to the Tyler Myers trophy of excellence

by Kevin Sellathamby on Apr 26, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions

you mean when his WHL caliber hitting gets to an NHL level.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Apr 23, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions

He just doesn’t seem to have the confidence that if he hits someone, he won’t put himself out of position.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Apr 24, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions

If that’s the case, then I congratulate him for being smart enough to not emulate the career of Garnet Exelby

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by clrkaitken on Apr 24, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions

OK, fair point, but in fairness to Mike Green those stats were compiled before he went on steroids.

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by Down Goes Brown on Apr 23, 2010 8:54 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs

Yeah, Schenn’s good, but we gave up three draft picks to get him!!!1

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by article1 on Apr 24, 2010 1:19 AM EDT reply actions

“As for Doughty… holy crap is he going to be good.”

I’d argue that he is damn good already and will win the Norris this season. He looks to me to be his generation’s Denis Potvin or Ray Bourque.

by Shack23 on Apr 24, 2010 10:37 AM EDT reply actions

he reminds me more of a Paul Coffey
and he is only gonna get better

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 24, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions

Oh, I agree he is only going to improve which is a scary thought for the rest of the league. He plays with the physical edge that Potvin and Bourque had and is better in his own end than Coffey ever was. Doughty has great wheels, though probably not as good a skater as Coffey who’s skating was out of this world.

by Shack23 on Apr 24, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

yeah, he is definitely gritter than Coffey ever was, but his playing style is pure paul, from the spin-o-ramas to the effortless stride.
damn, what a great era to be a hockey fan, so many great players will be maturing into their primes in the next 5 years

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 24, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions

Also – tied for the the points lead on his team for the playoffs this year.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

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by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Apr 24, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions

on a team with Kopitar, Brown, Simmonds and Frolov that is kinda ridiculous

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 24, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions

in fairness

the team hasn’t scored much… and I believe he is tied with a few guys at 6 points a piece – still though, wow.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

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by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Apr 24, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions

simmonds?

i mean, i like the kid, but he’s not exactly the pace-setter.

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by pevans on Apr 26, 2010 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions

throw in because I like him and he never gets any love

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 26, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions

How does everyone know that Doughty is only going to get better?

Phaneuf got a Norris nod in 2008 when he was just 22. An argument could easily be made that he didn’t get better.

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by mf37 on Apr 24, 2010 2:57 PM EDT reply actions

well of course nobody knows for sure that Doughty will get better and won’t regress or top out at his current, just that most players dont usually peak at 21

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 24, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions

the difference is that Phaneuf was getting incredibly sheltered minutes, playing with Hamrlik that year.
Doughty is playing against all the most difficult matchups, getting the biggest minutes on his team. And as this year has gone on, he’s gotten better.
He could regress next year, but the reason Phaneuf “regressed” was because he was actually paying top pairing minutes, instead of softer minutes with oodles of PP time. Really, Phaneuf’s norris nominated season wasn’t that great.

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by Karina on Apr 24, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Phaneuf had 17G 43A 60 pts in 2007-08, which is one more pont than Doughty’s Norris nominated year.

In 2007-08, Phaneuf was 5th among D in TOI and 10th in ES TOI.

This year, Doughty was 13th among D for TOI and just 26th at ES TOI.

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by mf37 on Apr 24, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions

So what you’re really saying here is that, if Doughty wins the Norris, Phaneuf also should have won? :)

by Shield on Apr 24, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions

I think he is saying that Phaneuf is better than Doughty

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 24, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Ah, yeah that’s definitely it.

by Shield on Apr 24, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions

What he’s saying is 2 years from now we’re gonna trade for Doughty.

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by clrkaitken on Apr 24, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions

unpossible

We only had one Matt Stajan to trade!

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by Wan Ihite on Apr 24, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Point is, Phaneuf was the #4 defenseman on his team when he was nominated.
Doughty is #1.

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by Karina on Apr 24, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Phaneuf led the Flames in TOI in 2007-08….

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by ohshrit on Apr 24, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions

what was his QUALCOMP? I read a post that year that broke down the Norris nominees, and how Phaneuf never faced the top line players, he got the soft minutes, all the faceoffs in his own end, all the PP time, etc.
Kinda like Green, if you will.

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by Karina on Apr 25, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions

I think “incredible soft” is an overstatement, but he was sheltered. Phaneuf was 3rd on the team in QUALCOMP behind Regehr and Sarich, but the numbers weren’t that far off. The big difference was in Zonestart, as Regehr/Sarich were the only ones below 50% for offensive zone starts. Phaneuf had the 4th toughest zone start.

This tells me the Leafs just need to be smart in how they use him. He’s not a defensive liability but his strength is offence. Let some combination of Komi/Schenn/Beauch take the lion’s share of defensive zone draws vs. tough opposition, and Phaneuf will be fine. Give him a ton of PP and ES time and he’ll be fine.

by The '67 Sound on Apr 25, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions

By “he’ll be fine” you mean “he’ll be legendary” right? Since he is already fine.

by Shield on Apr 25, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions

And all that for just a $6.5M annual cap hit.

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by mf37 on Apr 25, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions

good thing the rest of the Leafs D are such a bargain

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 25, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions

woooo Kaberle!

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by Karina on Apr 25, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions

This tells me the Leafs just need to be smart in how they use him. He’s not a defensive liability but his strength is offence. Let some combination of Komi/Schenn/Beauch take the lion’s share of defensive zone draws vs. tough opposition, and ~~Phaneuf~~ Kaberle will be fine. Give him a ton of PP and ES time and he’ll be fine.

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by mf37 on Apr 25, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Ha! Yeah, a good reason not to have both of them. I do think Phaneuf is stronger defensively than Kabs. His strength aggressiveness overcome his brainfarts in comparison to Kaberle.

I think the cap hit is why I put his upside at “fine”.

by The '67 Sound on Apr 26, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions

Phaneuf has a decent defensive acumen he just gets way too focused on offense sometimes or the big hit. he can learn patience

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by JaredFromLondon on Apr 26, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions

exactly…..

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by Karina on Apr 26, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions

I like this comment.

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by PPP on Apr 25, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions

It just seems so unlikely he won’t keep improving, based on his play in his first two seasons.

Yes, it’s overstating it to say one knows for sure… injuries or a loss of form and confidence can pop up at any time.

But it’s hard not to like how Doughty has performed so far and it’s just as hard to see his future trending any way other than positive.

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by stucky on Apr 25, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions

yup

i was trying to point out a few days ago exactly this. Player development is not a straight line, and projections can be thrown off for any number of reasons — injuries being an often-overlooked one.

Drew Doughtly is one of the best defenders in the league at 20, but i dont’ think he is the No.1 at this point. The signs are all pointing in the right direction, but i’m not penciling him in for 15 Norris trophies just yet.

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by pevans on Apr 26, 2010 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions