All's Fair In Fandom
by JP Nikota on May 15, 2010 3:35 AM EDT
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There is a recurring flaw in the comments and Fanposts that have been posted around this site lately. We get angry when other people cheer for certain teams, and we try to explain why they shouldn't. This is a waste of time.
I think what is important to keep in mind here is that being a fan of any team is fundamentally non-rational. We can't intellectualize fandom. Oh, sure, we can analyze and evaluate every aspect of our team, but the reason we cheer for them doesn't have anything to do with that.
Really, what we are dealing with when we say that we cheer for any given sports team is this: warped patriotism. There is something insane about the idea of any affiliation (in this case to a particular team) based on geographical proximity. This is particularly true in an age where half of people who comment on PPP are in a different country, or are so far away within the same country that they might as well be on Neptune. There is no logical reason to cheer for any particular team over another based on geography. Your team does not represent you as an individual.
We certainly don't cheer for The Leafs because they are the best or worst team in the league. We stick with them through thick and thin. Winning or losing is not a reason a reason for a REAL fan to cheer for anyone.
We are also not supporting them because we are Anglophone-Canadians or Anglophone-Americans as opposed to French-Canadian. The Leafs (or any other of Canada's teams) do not embody what it is to be English-speaking or Canadian in any way, shape, or form. In fact, many of our recent stars have spoken English as a second or third language. Throw in the fact that discrimination against French-Canadians has greatly abated over the past couple decades, and we have a large part why the Habs-Leafs rivalry is a hollow shell of what it used to be. In short, I do not cheer for the Leafs because I speak ANY given language, or that any other fan base speaks differently than I do.
Right now I am in the middle of Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs by Chuck Klosterman, and one of his essays details why he is a Celtics fan. Essentially, he says that The Celtics (both metaphorically and literally) represent various Republican tenets, while the L.A. Lakers represent those of the Democrats. I won't get into the specifics, because I think this is total malarkey, and I should point out that politics shouldn't enter into a choice of teams. You don't choose what team to root for based on some bizarre logic associating them with political ideals - your team is your team, for no other reason than you like them best.
I'd also like to add that I refuse to cheer for or against any given team because of their fans' reputation. There are awesome fans that cheer for every team, and to characterize any particular fan base as less intelligent than another is making a good case to prove yourself the worst of them all. Sure, we kid about other teams' fans, but folks have been taking things way too seriously lately. It's pointless to talk about who has the worst or the best fans.
The warm and fuzzy underlying message in all this is that I happily cheer alongside anyone who chooses to cheer with me, regardless of where they are from, what language they speak, or what their expectations are for the team (bandwagon fan or not). This is one of the greatest aspects organized sports offers us as a society; for a couple hours on game day, everyone cheering with you is a brother or a sister, and they are your equals. This is perhaps the most wonderfully Canadian (or American) thing I can think of.
Finally, I should add that I still hate the Habs and Sens with supernova-like conviction. I am spiteful towards the Bruins for taking our goalie (and that we had to take theirs), still spiteful towards the Flyers for knocking us out of the playoffs the last time we were in, and also spiteful towards the Wings and Devils for winning too much. These teams are all the anti-Leafs, and are thus worthy of a 1st class train ticket to Hell. But I'll never waste my breath complaining that their fans, or any other teams' fans on their bandwagons. That's their mistake to live with.
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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We could all hold hands under a rainbow...
…but that’s boring.
The Leafs are my religion, and in my crusade against the Habs, I will never rest.
by TMLSiegeinVancouver on May 15, 2010 3:59 AM EDT reply actions
Duh.
My issue with your post is that you’re too worried about what the rest of Canada thinks of the Habs. Who gives a cuss? It really doesn’t matter.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Sometimes you gotta save people from themselves.
People are bandwagoning for the Habs without knowing all the details. They are not just a hockey team, as you would argue, just like I would argue that the Leafs are not just a hockey team. If the Habs won the Stanley Cup, their fanbase would immediately tell Leafs, Sens, Flames, Oil and Nucks fans to suck it, because that’s their MO.
In fact, I polled a Habs fan the other day, and he said he doesn’t want bandwagoners cheering for the Habs, because they don’t deserve to!
There are no feelings of nationalistic unity via the Habs in Quebec – it’s just french canada vs. the anglos – Habs nation is french canada. That’s the way it’s always been and that’s the way it is now. Many, many Habs fans have told this to my face: the Habs skate out there carrying the torch of french resistance. Resistance to what?
Us.
To ignore this fact is naive.
by TMLSiegeinVancouver on May 15, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no logical reason to cheer for any particular team over another based on geography.
2 points on this:
- There is almost nothing “logical” about being a fan of any team. In fact, if you wanted to just cheer for whichever team is winning at the time, you’d always be getting enjoyment from watching sports, which is a hell of a lot more logical than bleeding blue and white for 43 years of disappointment. Fandom is more about passion than logic.
- While geography isn’t always the case, you can see why there are many geographic factors which influence the choice of your team. Media coverage & attending games are big factors in grabbing interest in a fanbase, which in turn leads to others in your area talking about the team, buying paraphernalia, etc. It becomes part of the local culture.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
I dont care where you are from, you can cheer for whichever team you like. Im not upset that there are Habs fans in Toronto, ive always known that. Because they are so storied a franchise, the Habs have lots of serious fans everywhere people love hockey. Whats great about the Leafs is that they do too.
But you can not be a true fan of one and cheer for the other. Is it rational? No. But fandom isnt rational. The rivalry between the Leafs and Habs may be in a state of playoff-dormancy, but it still exists. I WANT the Leafs to meet and crush them in the playoffs. And it will continue to bug me how much so-called “Leaf Fans” are loving it up for the Habs right nowT.
One guy on CBC radio asked (to this effect):
“So because im a Leafs fan and we have a history, I cant be inspired by the Habs and cheer for the cup to come back to Canada?”
The answer is: That is correct.
Meh, there are / can be trends predominant in fanbases. European soccer teams, for example, are definitely split politically – Rome and Milan have two teams, and a lot of their fanbase trends towards a certain (typically class-based) stereotype.
I was badmouthing Flyers fans to my roommate, who doesn’t really follow hockey, and didn’t entirely buy it when I told him “oh, they’re basically the ‘bros’ of the NHL fans.” A couple days later, we had a big party for Marathon Monday. In walks a guy who was friends with my roommate freshman year. The playoffs come up, and he says, “I’m a huge Flyers fan.” I looked at him and said, “Yeah you are!” Because, well, I’d have called it, no joke. (He also said the Devils weren’t a “classy” team. I mean COME ON.)
I’m certainly not saying that everyone can describe what attracts them to a fan base, nor that every fan base is marked by trends or stereotypes. And I totally agree that it’s not some pen-and-paper choice, with every team laid out, deciding “I think I’ll be a Predators fan!” But fandom can be independent of geography, and there’s a lot to love about the charisma of a team, and a lot to comment on when you notice trends and stereotypes popping up in their rioting-for-passing-the-first-round fanbase.
Also, I laughed at the idea of Celtics-Lakers being a Republican-Democrat split. It’s Boston. If the Celtics represented republican ideals, the Lakers would have to be Martha freakin’ Coakley before Bostonians would watch the Celts.
Yeah… you’ll have to ask Chuck Klosterman about this comparison. He’s got about a dozen reasons for it, none of which made any sense to me.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
That makes me want to read the book.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I know nothing about basketball and I found it interesting.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 15, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Chuck Klosterman
is more of a humorist than anything else. I found S,D&CP to be a funny, decidedly light read. I wouldn’t worry about seeing too much in his pop culture comparisons.
Check out his Beatles box set review if you like his stuff, it’s cute.
Saw that just today.
Laughed out loud on several occasions. I recommend this as well, especially if you’re a Beatles fan.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
To me, it was an interesting diversion, nothing more. If you look hard enough you can find parallels in anything, doesn’t mean they actually exist or are meaningful.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
Trends in a fan base?
This is where I’ve gotta disagree with you. I refuse to believe that Flyer fans are any dumber than Leaf fans. This is a crazy generalization. Totally bunk.
As for the political thing, I don’t even really believe it’s political, even when their fans tell me it’s political. For example, I was traveling through Ireland a couple years back, and a Scotsman told me never to discuss soccer with anyone from the North, or anyone too close to the border on the Republic’s side. He said that teams all through Ireland (and even some in England and Scotland) are associated with different religions or political views, and that this could start a fight. He went on to explain that these are people just looking for a fight – they don’t care AT ALL about the football. It’s just a front, an excuse, and it’s exactly like the looters in Montréal; they’re not really fans.
I strongly suspect (although of course I have to concede that this is speculation) that a bunch of the Montrealers who decided they were going to smash storefront windows did not even watch the game. In the only photo I’ve seen of looters taking things, none of them were wearing Habs jerseys.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Field Trips
Throughout the playoffs I have been joining the GDT at various team’s blogs.
Pensburgh, Japers, and Second City Hockey are great. Tons of well informed fans who love their team.
Each blog has their own voice, so to speak, but they are all just as passionate and friendly as anyone else.
I look forward to seeing the GDT’s at Broad Street Hockey.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 15, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Good
Yeah, look, we all know every fanbase is probably almost equally divided into the different groups of fans (idiots, bandwagoners, etc). It’s just more fun to ignore that fact.
But let’s get one thing straight, the worst of the Philly fans are the worst of any fans. I mean, making yourself vomit on someone?!?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
And now the kickpunchy fans are going to be battling the firestarting, looting, sometime racist fans.
The worst of the worst is about to ensue. Which fan base will step it up to become truly the most horrible people to represent their team?
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 15, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I can get behind that.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 15, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, but I don’t consider IQ to fit into something like that, just because it’s too tough to track/gauge, even anecdotally. I’m not going to assign an intellect value to throwing octopi on the ice. But will I arbitrarily assign a value to the bros that are shouting “GO FLYERS!!!1?” hell yeah.
The teams will never be affiliated with political positions; it’s just stupid to do. But if you have a fanbase that strictly aligns itself one way, then it’s pretty much saying that the team is largely supported by a certain political ideology. I would suspect that the team is more a vehicle for politics than it is a driving force for the politics, for sure (which is to say that the fans drive the team’s politics, not the other way around), but that, in a big way, does make the team politically affiliated. Regardless of whether or not the fans are “true fans.”
There are exceptions to every rule, and I’m not about to say “Oh, you’re a Habs fan? You must be Quebecois pro-separatism!” I may use it as a fun and semi-retro insult, but it’s not a genuine assessment of their fan base or anything. Especially true because the more moderate fans tend to be the most quiet. No one shouts “I HAVE ONLY REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS FOR THIS TEAM, BASED ON THEIR ABILITY.”
No one shouts "I HAVE ONLY REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS FOR THIS TEAM, BASED ON THEIR ABILITY."
Well the Swiss might.
I agree with the idea of a tongue-in-cheek retro insult, hilarious.
But I also think that we shouldn’t go to far in our hate for other fans. Like Fleet Fox says, I hate the Habs and the Sens as much as anyone else, and enjoying chirping opposing fans, but outright hating another fanbase is a futile.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 15, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You are right to suspect....
For days following the riot, details emerged from the local police that never made it out of Montreal.
Out of all the people that were arrested during the riot, none had any Habs gear, tickets to the televised event at the Bell center that night, or proof of any kind that they were following the game at all (receipts from bars etc.). As well, all showed up more the 2 hours after the celebration had started on the streets, when most of the true fans had already left..
Its unfortunate that these negative events are associated with the rabid fans of Montreal. If we are going to hate habs fans…lets hate them for the right reasons…because they are Habs fans.
what about Habs fans that watched the game at home drunk with their friends and took 2 hours to walk down to where the celebration hmm??
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 17, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
A lot of times I think it comes down to one major thing: Who are the most vocal fans? The ones that fire off on TV, Radio, internet etc – are they usually the intelligent, rational fans or are they usually the douchebags.
Everyone only sees a certain cross section of fans – normally those who do or say the most moronic things. I think where we run into a problem is generally the silent majority is the group of rational fans who don’t bother to participate in the name calling/stabbing/car flipping/ looting.
Every individual has their own standard on how they judge other fan-bases. The majority of the Habs fans I know are actually pretty good(they don’t live in Montreal, though) but like many fans, they tend to have some blind spots. ‘The refs are trying to screw us, etc etc.’
Do I want to see certain teams fail more than others? Yes, because my perception of the Habs fan-base over all is that of arrogant, complaining, self-entitled douchiness.
Do I honestly think that most of them are like that? Not really, but I don’t need to hear about Cup #25. If the silent Majority spoke up and had the dignity not to rub it in my face, and to admit that a lot of their run was luck, opportune goals, and fantastic goaltending then that would really moderate my negative feelings. Too bad it doesn’t work that way.
It’s not rational, but who cares? Know who I hate more than even the douchiest of habs fans or the biggest asshole Sens fan? The so-called Leaf fans who are bandwagonning, ignorant dickheads who represent everything I hate about other fan bases.
I have no problem with other fans hating Toronto – as long as they have a legitimate reason for it (Sens fans should hate the Leafs, so should Montreal but for two different reasons.)
We have to look in the mirror sometimes and realize that the reasons we hate other fans are the same reasons they hate us.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 15, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions
The warm and fuzzy underlying message in all this is that I happily cheer alongside anyone who chooses to cheer with me, regardless of where they are from, what language they speak, or what their expectations are for the team (bandwagon fan or not). This is one of the greatest aspects organized sports offers us as a society; for a couple hours on game day, everyone cheering with you is a brother or a sister, and they are your equals. This is perhaps the most wonderfully Canadian (or American) thing I can think of.
Agree 100% with this sentiment. Sports is amazing because you can talk to anyone wearing your colours and you have something in common.
However, people here aren’t miffed that people are cheering for the Habs. There will be Habs fans in this world just like there are Blue Jackets fans. It happens. It’s the bandwagoners and the apostates that, to quote Buzz Bissinger, piss the shit out of me and most people here. If you can’t even stick beside your team during thick and thin, something so simple to do, then really, what kind of person are you? One whose ideals and principles are so malleable that they’ll jump ship at the first sign of trouble.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
In one of the other threads the other day
I wrote about all the Habs paraphernalia that appeared right after they beat the Pens.
Where the hell was that when they were fighting for a playoff spot?
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 15, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand the thinking, but I don’t bust out my Leaf gear unless I’m at an actual game, or it’s the playoffs.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 15, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I wore my Leaf Jersey last week.
I guess we are just different that way.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 15, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly, aesthetics do not a more passionate fan make.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 15, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe – but I still find it pathetic that so many just appeared out of the woodwork after their game 7 win.
If it looks like a bandwagonner and smells like a bandwagonner….
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 15, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I wore my Clark jersey after the habs beat the pens just daring people to say something
no one did =(
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 15, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
One Habs fan jokingly asked me if I lost a bet, I told him no, just a lot of hockey games.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 15, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha.
I was in high school for the early 2000’s Battle of Ontario Heydays, got to rock the jersey quite often. I was at a catholic school with uniforms but they let it slide. Always got to give my buddy who was a sens fan shit. I lost a bet and had to shave my hair into a mohawk, almost was suspended for it. Those were the days.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 15, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Weird
My school did the same thing. Leafs jerseys replaced blazers for many of us during the season. I was one of the first to do it because athletes were allowed to replace their blazers with their jerseys on game day.
A Nation of Masochists Still hating JFJ.
If you can’t even stick beside your team during thick and thin, something so simple to do, then really, what kind of person are you?
Hahahah, in that case, you’re probably just someone who doesn’t care much about hockey. It isn’t a question of ideals or principles. Bandwagon fans exist, and they’re really not so awful. Agree to disagree on this one; I’ll never understand the frustration.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I really think that’s what it comes down to. I’d hazard to guess there aren’t many die hard hockey fans that simply jump from team to team. I’ve just been reading the Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell and I think it applies here. There is a certain threshold of fandom where you go from being casually interested in the game usually only around the playoffs and cheering for whatever team has the most compelling story to being a diehard fan of one specific team. Most of us here crossed that line a long time ago so it’s hard to relate to the people who haven’t. I really doubt that there are any people who are diehard hockey fans without having an allegiance to a specific team, the bandwagoners are people who don’t really care about the game all that much, which is why they usually are “someone’s mother”. When the Leafs make it back to the promised land I think we’ll have our fair share of bandwagoners around here.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 16, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
The frustration comes in having to take shit from people that don’t care precisely because I do care. If I was a scientist that worked for decades on something like, let’s say, climate change and some guy that got his degree in two years at a school that believes the Earth in 6000 years old got the same footing as me it would piss me off too.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
bandwagon fans
I realized years ago that being a fan is a fundamentally irrational thing to do. Having passion for the outcome of something you ultimately have no control over is a ridiculous thing to do, and a sucker’s bet since you’re very likely to eat disappointment far more than you ever taste success.
But that’s why i hate bandwagoners. Because I’ve earned it. I lived through the tail end of the Ballard years, then the glorious Gilmour era, the transition to Sundin, the Quinn era and…the dog’s breakfast that’s been the Leafs since the lockout. There’s a lot of bad in there, and i hang on. My concept of the universe depends on there being some sort of payoff in the end.
A bandwagoner hasn’t lived through the trenches, so I don’t see why he deserves to claim to have been on the winning side.
When the Leafs end up winning it all, I will be one of the sweetest releases of my life. And I don’t want to let some jackhole who hasn’t earned it share in that.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Not all hockey fans are created equally.
I have to agree with Fleet Fox here, and add there’s nothing you can do to stop an influx of people from loving the Leafs and rooting for the leafs when they eventually show signs of excellence. I’d say don’t let it ruin the moment you’re waiting for, because if you’re this worried about it, it probably will.
by A Lindros Jaw on May 17, 2010 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I can only rec it once.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 16, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
What I don’t get is that if the situations were switched I’d place my money on Habs fans not cheering for the Leafs. Also, have you ever heard about Yankees fans cheering for Boston or the other way around?
No.
If you need to go hop on another teams bandwagon because you’re sick of the Leafs losing the fine. I hope I never see you with a Leafs jersey on again cause I damn will never cheer with you.
Some one here said it best:
The bandwagoners are showing their true colours, and we should use this as an opportunity to cleanse the fanbase. Cheering for the Habs is treason in Leafland.
I’m taking names for when they come back to the blue & white. Fuck ’em all.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 16, 2010 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more. Habs cheering = treason.
When the playoffs are over and the Evil Empire is defeated, we should round up anyone who supported them and shave their heads in the middle of the street while children and old ladies spit in their treasonous faces!
by TMLSiegeinVancouver on May 17, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
No problem.
It’s not easy to write a logical essay on an irrational subject. This was well done and represented my opinion pretty well.
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 18, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
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