Roster Flexibility: Skinning the Proverbial Cat
Editor's Note: Do the Leafs have roster flexibility? Sure. Is it a good thing? Fleet Fox thinks that it is.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. And if that [free agency] list keeps dwindling, there are other mechanisms for a cap-friendly team to do some things.
- Brian Burke, at the season-end press conference, on acquiring top-six talent.
It seems that Leaf fans can't go a single day without being reminded of the picks given up in the Kessel trade. "They shouldn't have traded those picks; you've got to build through the draft", they always say. Yeah, yeah, we've heard all about the importance of draft picks for building a team but we also know that it's equally important (if not more so) to focus on post-draft player development, and salary cap management. That is, at what point will it make sense to save a year of a player's Entry Level Contract and when is it better to use one to keep a player in the AHL or NHL? Contract status goes a long way towards determining where a player will develop in an upcoming season.
What I want to look at in this post is one of the possible advantages that Burke's plan for an accelerated rebuild gives us in terms of player development and cap management: flexibility. I think we may be surprised how well positioned we are in Leafland.
Up until Brian Burke arrived, salary cap management was a complete mess, and despite spending more than most teams, the Leafs were (and still are) one of only three teams to not make the playoffs since the lockout (the other two are Florida and Atlanta). Leaf player development was hit-and-miss, with Ian White, Matt Stajan, Alex Ponikarvosky, and Nik Antropov proving to be serviceable NHLers, while Jiri Tlusty, Tuukka Rask, and Justin Pogge, each for different reasons, just didn't pan out or, as is the case with Rask, weren't given the opportunity.
Lately though, I have confidence that our GM is not going to ruin our drafted prospects, and when he mentions the possibility of Kadri playing next year, it makes me step back and consider that he might actually know best - a knowledgeable GM being a relative novelty around here. Naturally, we are still waiting to pass judgment on the development of Schenn, Kulemin, and Gunnarsson, but for right now, things are looking up.
Elliotte Friedman wrote a good article a few days ago about managing drafted talent:
"Let's look at the Stanley Cup champions since the lockout:
"In 2006, Eric Staal earned $942,400 US and Conn Smythe Trophy winner Cam Ward $684,000 for the Carolina Hurricanes. Now, their combined cap figure is $14.5 million. In 2007, Ryan Getzlaf made $881,600 and Corey Perry $684,000 for the Anaheim Ducks. Now, they're at $10.65 million. Both were absolutely deserving, but a major reason Chris Pronger is in Philadelphia.
"In 2008, Henrik Zetterberg's salary was $2.7 million and Niklas Kronwall's $1.5. Now, they're at $9.1, and Kronwall is underpaid by NHL standards. The Red Wings were already loaded with big deals, but these ones pushed them over the edge. (That's why it will be interesting to see what Nicklas Lidstrom signs for.)
"Last year, Crosby and Marc-Andre Fleury's extensions had already kicked in. Malkin and Jordan Staal jumped from a total of $1.85 million to $12.7 million this season."
So a quick summary: Carolina fell apart, Anaheim fell apart, Detroit is in the process of falling apart, and Pittsburgh may just do the same. It's not to say that it all happened at once, or that any of these teams are incapable of getting back on track, but as Friedman notes, there don't seem to be mid-range contracts for good, young talent in today's NHL. In other words, if you are projected to be a star, you will get a giant contract as soon as your ELC is up. This has put a lot of those teams, those that supposedly did everything right by building through the draft, in a bit of a pinch. This is definitely not the situation the Leafs are in.
Yes, the good news for The Leafs is that Burke has cobbled together a team that is very flexible when it comes to the cap, by signing a larger amount of cheap forwards to smaller Free Agent contracts. In doing so, Burke has granted himself the luxury of negotiating with several players right before they have hit the peak of their careers. If they're duds, we'll know. If they're future stars, we'll know. The three main examples of this include Phil Kessel, Tyler Bozak, and Jonas Gustavsson. Naturally, Kessel is already something of a star, but as is so commonly said around here, he still has time to grow - we'll see how much. Also, Bozak may very well be the only one of those three that gets a major boost in pay when his deal is up.
Of course, Burke hasn't had the luxury of negotiating most of the contracts he currently manages, but the fact of the matter is that neither Kulemin nor Mitchell will command huge raises, and shouldn't break the bank. As for the following year, Stalberg and Caputi will likely be had for mid-range contracts as well. Gunnarsson could cost a bit more, but hopefully the depth we have on the blue line will keep him sheltered and cheaper. (Dear Komisarek, please stay healthy.)
Furthermore, most other veterans aren't on long contracts. Giguere's contract provides a perfect window to ease Gustavsson and/or Rynnas into a larger role, and I can quite honestly say that I do not worry much about which of Wallin, Primeau, or Lundmark is signed or let go. Sjostrom will probably be a cheap re-sign, as well.
The team's only potential contract anchors are on defence, with Komisarek still needing to prove he can stay healthy, Beauchemin needing to be more consistent, and Jeff Finger needing to be in the minors. Even then, both Beachemin and Finger's contracts are up in 2011, and aren't so massive that they can't be dealt with. Dion Phaneuf's contract may be a bit too big, but clearly he is a man that we are going to build around anyway. He's not going anywhere.
An interesting situation presents itself: The Leafs have put together a young team almost entirely through free agency, using only six Toronto-drafted players, and only five if you count Kaberle as gone. In this way, they are set to sign a number of players to shorter, more reasonable contracts, effectively getting players to sign the elusive mid-range contracts that Friedman talks about. This also means that no one single player (perhaps with the exception of Pheneuf, who might be worth it anyway) inhibits Burke's flexibility to trade and/or dump salary to accommodate a free agent signing. Another benefit to this weighting of contracts is that it becomes easier to sign cheap plugs if our prospects need more time to develop in either junior or the AHL (i.e. Paradis, Rynnas, Blacker, Kadri, etc.). Ironically, by using such accelerated rebuilding process, Burke is able to better shelter his existing prospects, lure plenty of college and European free agents, accommodate trades (particularly forwards), and maybe even lure in a decent UFA or two, than if he had simply waited for draft picks to come up through the system.
Had the Leafs simply sat back, hoarded draft picks, and waited for 3 or 4 years until the picks we traded for Kessel to come in and save the day, we would be:
1) Enduring a much longer period of complete futility until these players were NHL-ready. Obviously, a team that includes Kessel will do better in the standings, but it is also more attractive to free agents - signing with an up-and-coming team is far more enticing than a team like the Oilers, who are waiting for the day when all of their prospects hit the bigs.
2) Stuck with a terrible cap situation once both those first-round players demanded large contracts as soon as their ELC were up. And this is only the best-case scenario, where both of these first-rounders were the types of players we actually wanted to keep. If either or both were only mediocre players, we'd be better off simply signing a free agent who could contribute immediately.
Now all we have to do is survive the Leaf news drought until July 1st. One of my grade school teachers had a great line for this: "Qui vivra, vera." Basically, "Whoever lives to see shall tell."
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
630 comments
|
8 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Interesting analysis
But I’m not sure I agree. What Friedman’s article astutely notes is that every post-lockout Cup winner has enjoyed a vastly underpaid star/superstar or two on an ELC: Staal, Perry/Getzlaf, Kronwall/Zetterberg, Malkin/Staal. You note the fall-out, but I’m focussing on the fact that no one in the post-lockout period has won without a cheap superstar. Given that the Blackhawks have to be the overwhelming favourites to win this year—and they have three underpaid superstars in Kane, Toews and Keith (remember, their extensions and ensuing cap-apocalypse kick in next year)—this pattern is likely to continue.
So yes, maybe the Canes, Ducks, Wings and Pens have been hit after their Cup win, and the Hawks certainly will suffer next year, but they won the freaking Cup. I wouldn’t point at their model as something to avoid.
You say we have flexibility with none of our forwards getting huge money. I see a team lacking superstars or dramatically underpaid star players. The college FAs are nice but we have to pay market value for them (Hanson getting paid more than Mitchell? Bozak at $3.725?). Kessel is paid market value. Phaneuf is paid market value. Anyone Burke can acquire on the open market, whether by trade or UFA signing, will likely have to be paid market value.
I’m not saying the situation is hopeless. The Sharks look like they’re going to fall short again but they had a pretty damn good year with all 4 of their superstars getting paid market value. The Flyers’ best players are all getting market value. But our best chance for success is for someone out of the group of Kadri, Caputi, DiDo or someone else to turn into a point per game player while still cheap. Possible, but not likely.
Either that or we can follow the Philly/Montreal model and ride a ridiculously hot goalie!!!1
I don't think your point is necessarily incompatible with what I've written.
I wouldn’t say to avoid their model – there’s just more than one way to rebuild, and so far, we’ve been doing a pretty good job of doing that without having to wait for talent to grow up through the draft. The two advantages to our situation are a faster turnaround time and (hopefully) not being in a cap mess later. Obviously, the downside to The Leafs plan is the risk factor; Kessel, Phaneuf, Gustavsson could all turn out to be just mediocre, and then we’re screwed for years. But even then, there is the chance that the picks wouldn’t have panned out, and really, we’re only missing two first rounders. Maybe even a total collapse would only push the Leafs rebuild back another two years.
Burke has positioned himself to acquire big names in the forward ranks with so many smaller contracts. Hopefully, after trading Kaberle, burying Finger, and/or Giguere comes off the books, we’ll be able to absorb a market-value player without cornering ourselves.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Agree
Was going to say the same thing.
Obviously it would be excellent to have the sort of “problems” of the above mentioned teams, but given the situation we’re in Burke has been able to give us flexibility without sacrificing talent. In 3 years it could look like we’re getting Kessel and Phaneuf at a bargain.
We’ve been dealt a different hand than most franchises and it’s interesting to see some of the benefits of our predicament.
Kulemin is a great example, right now he has not shown enough to justify a huge raise, we can see that the potential is there, but chances are he’ll sign a mid-range deal both in terms of length and cap hit. If he exceeds his contract then he’s that elusive “efficient” player we’re all hoping for, if not he can be jettisoned relatively easy. Win/Win/Win.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Phaneuf at a bargain
This is unlikely. I like Phaneuf’s play, but as he’s playing right now he’s overpaid big time. I hope we can get some more production out of him next year. The hard hitting is good but we need points on the board to be paid $6.5M a year.
He better be spending his offseason working on accuracy. He doesn’t need the gym as much as the rest of our young players, but his shooting % was just brutal last year.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh yea, I was just saying that the potential is there. Maybe not a bargain but at the very least fair market value.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Phaneuf at $6.5 is even fair market. Unless he turns it around in a big way, that contract is not a good one in terms of price to performance.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
yeah, Unless Phaneuf starts putting up Mike Green offensive numbers while throwing 7-10 hits a game and being defensibly responsible i will be hard pressed to call him value for dollars
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Chris Pronger the Second, please.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it was FMV when signed but he needs to rebound big time.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure, I agree, if you only look at Phaneuf’s salary vs. comp’s. What’s ignored is that it wasn’t Burke who signed him to that contract, as we all know, and he either came with that price tag or not at all.
To assess his “value” we have to take into accounts the assets that were moved for him, which I think everyone here is still okay with. I know I’d do that deal again.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Very good point.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The Rangers didn’t give up anything for Wade Redden. How’s his value look to you?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Sure, that’s a negative value contract. But I think Sergei’s point is with trades there are two sides to the ledger, the Giguere deal being the best example. Yes Giggy’s contract is negative value, but we got rid of two contracts that were, combined, even bigger negatives.
Phaneuf, we’ll have to wait and see. Based on their play this year the best option was to re-up White for around $3MM and trade the other pieces for picks before the deadline. But Phaneuf has a history that suggests he at least could merit his contract, which would make him more valuable than White given the scarcity of #1 defencemen (which I think we all agree White will never be).
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
No one was talking about trades, we were talking about Phaneuf’s contract & cap hit.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
he absolutely has to step up his production
significantly, in order to become “market value” and needs to be exponentially better in order to come within miles of “bargain”
Fine. The Giguere trade was aces to me from the moment i heard the details, but the Phaneuf trade i had reservations about based solely on the price tag. None of the assets going the other way were impossible to replace.
I realize $6.5M is a hell of a lot to pay for intangibles, but if there’s a way i can talk myself into it, it’s based on Dion’s age.
Seriously, if you’d told me in, say, 2006 that in 3 years the Leafs were going to have Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf i would have bet money we’d be Cup Contenders already. Funny how its worked out so far :)
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
if you had told mats sundin in 2006 we’d have dion phaneuf and phil kessel in 3 yrs, he probably wouldn’t have retired.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Nah, he’d probably still be making up his mind.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
First I think he’d ask who the hell Phil Kessel was.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
It’s still hard for me to comprehend that we have those two.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought we were talking about assessing Burke. We all know Giggy’s contract sucks but we’re happy to have it in the circumstances.
At least, that’s what my initial comment was about, that’s what I thought FF’s post was about, and that’s what Sergei’s comment seems to be about.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
you are correct sir.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I know that, and I’m not saying that Paneuf’s salary isn’t inflated. The point of the post was discussing Burke’s cap-savvy and I’m just saying that his hands were tied regarding that contract, and for what it was worth is still a good deal. Plus he got a cheap penalty killer and solid prospect in there, so I’m thinking he used the already inflated contract to net him another asset or two from Cousin Darryl.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
phaneuf is 24, redden is 32. phaneuf’s potential upside over the next 5 years is probably greater than redden’s.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
understatement of the year
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I was responding to Sergei’s ludicrous statement that you can assess a player’s value based on the assets expended to acquire him.
Using that formula, Wade Redden’s value would be pretty good as he was a UFA and didn’t cost any assets to acquire.
And none of this changes the fact that Phaneuf’s contract is poor.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
No, but it does change the assessment of Burke’s roster moves and re-build.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t for me.
Gustavsson is the only great deal Burke has signed.
Phaneuf, Giguere have horrible contracts; Komisarek and Beauchemin’s are questionable.
We’ll see what Burke can do with Kulemin and the upcoming free agency season.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Well it might not change your opinion, but it should be part of the debate.
Yea, he hit a home run with the Monster contract.
Really hope he does the same with Kule-Aid.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Beauchemin’s is market value. Look at other defensemen who make the same as him – Willie Mitchell, for instance, and he matches up favourably.
But you’re absolutely correct, no contracts have been “deals” aside from Gustavsson’s.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no qualms with the Grabovski contract. I think this season was the basement on his production, and he still was pretty well in line with his value.
Resident Capologist
but well in line with his value /= bargain
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
that is to say
just because Burke doesn’t overpay someone doesn’t mean that their contract is really that good.
Winning teams have a lot of players who are actually underpaid based on their production.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And some that are overpaid,
Both Philly and Chicago have contracts they’d love to get rid of.
Although right now the Flyers are earning theirs.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
sure
but you absolutely NEED those bargains.
So far, we have Gustavsson being a bargain player.
John Mitchell was a bargain this past year.
Of all the players who have been outplaying their contract, there’s not a Toews/Crosby/Staal/Perry among them.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s our dirty little secret that for 2 years Beauch hasn’t matched up favourably to much of anyone.
Thank God it’s a 3 yr deal not 4.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
you don’t think he compares to someone like Willie Mitchell?
He’s better than Kevin Bieska, that’s for sure.
I seriously need to round out my knowledge of players beyond the Leafs/Canucks.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t claim encyclopedic knowledge of NHL players but I like GVT and Beauch is in the bottom half of NHL regular D-men.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
oh
I don’t really like advanced stats and judge by what I see on the ice.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I just don’t see enough other players to judge them that way.
And Beauch looked decidedly mediocre to me.
GVT is a very good starting point. It consistently identifies as the best players the ones who are usually recognized as such.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
hrm
I wonder how’d he look if we took GVT and sorted it by salary.
It seems to me there are a lot of defensemen who are average or even below average making $3.5 mill.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I really wish the stats sites would include salary info.
If you did the sort you suggest I’m guessing you’d see a lot of overpaid UFAs and a lot of underpaid ELCs and RFAs!
To be fair, I’m guessing Beauch would look more middling if compared to his UFA peer group, whereas I was comparing him to D-men as a whole (where he looks poor on an efficiency basis of course).
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
could you point me to a stat site with GVT?
I could create a table that sorts it myself.
Could be something that would be an interesting post for us to discuss.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/gvt.php?sort=14&mingp=&team=&pos=ALL
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
thanks
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
woah
Keith, Green and Doughty were actually the top three defensemen according to GVT?
The Norris voters actually got it right???
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Do they have the data for previous seasons? I’m kind of interested if that’s just a fluke
Resident Capologist
looks like back to 2006-2007
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s kind of strange that the elite defencemen have a GVT of 22, and yet the very worst player is only at -3.
Like, I’ll buy that swapping Mike Green for Taylor Chorney makes your team 25 goals better, but if you swap Chorney for Niclas Wallin (0.0 in 49 games with CAR, -0.1 in 23 games with SJ) you’re only 3 goals worse?
Seems like the median on this metric is a bit too high, since ideally the player in the exact middle would be about 0
Resident Capologist
I'll do you one better
I fanshotted this a while ago.
Yes, it concludes Gretzky is the greatest. But Orr had the highest peak.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha – it’d be funny if this is how they’ve always picked the candidates.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Should I do this by real-dollars paid last year or by cap hit?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
unless she’s writing it about the social heirarchy of the dressing room
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
I can’t actually calculate how much Doughty made this year due to performance bonuses.
Cap hit it is.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, it should probably be cap hit subtracted by minimum NHL salary – not to be a pain.
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
but that minimum NHL salary is the same for all players… so what’s the point of subtracting it?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
We’re looking for how much the player adds (GVT) compared to how much extra he is paid.
Since you have to pay the player a minimum NHL salary, the extra he gets paid is how much return he brings.
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
Right, but we don’t care about the raw $ to GVT score. We care about the $ to GVT relative to peers. The “relative to peers” part means that common salary will be accounted for.
I think you only need to do the subtraction if you’re calculating “GVT/$”, which we are not.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
For list purposes, should be fine, you’re right. I’m still not sure it’s not right to subtract the base salary, but even if it isn’t, the effect would be minor in this case. My bad!
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
it’s just because what I’m looking at is relative to what other players make, so subtracting the same amount from every salary is redundant.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if you’re comparing salaries that are exactly the same, yes. Once you start comparing salaries that are slightly different, then I think it matters. But since we’re just using it as a list and sorting, you’re right in that it wouldn’t matter. Forget I brought it up!
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
You’re right in that GVT is “vs. threshold”
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
real dollars!
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
you’re just being contradictory
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
so is your face
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
nuh uhhh
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I don’t think that’s what Sergei was saying at all. No one would suggest Redden’s contract is anything but negative value in that he costs more than he’s worth. Put another way, you couldn’t trade him for a bag of pucks. You’d have to give away other assets to convince someone to take him.
Sergei’s point (which I can’t imagine you disagree with) is that in assessing a player in context, and whether his presence on your roster is a positive or not, you have to consider what else came or went in the deal whereby you acquired him. For Giggy, clearly it was a net positive. For Phaneuf, it depends on not only how he plays, but also the development of Aulie and White (the other pieces being mostly spare parts or expirings).
If you’re just looking at his contract, yes, to state the obvious: he’ll never be a bargain and he’s got a long way to go to be fair value.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If the basis for assessment is, as you said:
you have to consider what else came or went in the deal whereby you acquired him
..then UFAs have great intrinsic value because nothing went in the deal, no assets were expended to acquire them.
I think this is a ludicrous way to evaluate talent or value.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Come on mf, you know me better than that. Money goes in the deal to a UFA. I’m always considering net value relative to contract.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
But that’s not what he said.
To assess his "value" we have to take into accounts the assets that were moved for him.
No we don’t – it’s called sunk cost and it’s pretty much irrelevant.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Yeah, there’s ambiguity, but I gave a more charitable interpretation of his comment, which he agreed with.
This is PPP, not MLHS. Let’s read comments charitably.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I don’t mean to be a dick, I just think it’s a ridiculous way to evaluate talent and/or contracts.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Agreed, but I don’t think anyone’s actually evaluating contracts that way.
Leafs fans know that UFA contracts are not “costless”. See, e.g.: virtually every Leafs UFA deal post-lockout.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t remind us.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
But that’s what Sergei said and that’s what I’ve been responding too…
To assess his “value” we have to take into accounts the assets that were moved for him.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I know, but I think what he meant was what ’67 sound is saying.
Maybe not though,.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Was just going to say, yea “value” might not be the right word.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, just read the first para of my comment. You’re setting up straw men.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to say Reductio ad absurdum, but that works.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Ack.
I’m not responding to anything other than Sergei’s statement.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Wow, Mike is a grumpy bear today!
Okay, in the context of player vs. salary, yes I will conceded that based on recent production, Phaneuf is overpaid.
HOWEVER, the main post is about Burkie’s cap management skills and in THAT context, he cannot be faulted for the $ amount. PLUS, he showed trade-savvy in clearly not over-paying in the deal that acquired Dion.
I would love to see Dion earn his $6.5M, but I don’t think it happens. I still think I’d rather have him on the Leafs than the Flames, even with that price tag.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
just so i’m clear then, you’re saying kessel’s value should not be assessed based on the draft picks given up to get him?
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
we all know it will anyway
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty much.
My problem with that trade has always been that the Leafs weren’t in a position to expend the assets required to land him.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
It’s too bad Boston wasn’t interested in taking White, Hagman, Mayers, Stajan, Blake or Toskala instead.
Stupid crafty Boston.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
how can the assets expanded be irrelevant in evaluating player value but relevant in evaluating a trade? isn’t player value relevant to how a trade is evaluated? your stance on sergei’s statement and your stance on the trade are completely contradictory.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
I love this can of worms I opened.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade evaluation is assets expended to assets acquired + an element of does the deal address a team need.
Contract evaluation is price to performance.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
which trade are you referring to?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
The problem—at root—is Burke badly misevaluated his goaltending.
If Toskala is league average we finish 20th and no one’s that concerned about the picks.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
So much hate for Toskala
The worst part was that he didn’t even feel bad about his play.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
“The problem—at root—is Burke badly misevaluated his goaltending.”
So true
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Either that, or they knew that he would shit the bed and were just waiting for him to lie in it. That way everyone screams for an overhaul, and Burke looks like a god when he pulls the trigger on a deal.
That makes the press conf entirely posturing, but its easy to do in hindsight and I wouldn’t put it past him. He’s quite wily, like his old man.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If he knew Vesa would shit the bed he’s a moron for virtually everything else he did in the off-season.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Coming off successful surgery + Revamped defence + Contract Year = .874 Sv%?
Nobody saw that coming.
Resident Capologist
He screwed us all. I felt clensed the day he was traded.
All hail Jan 31, Brian Burke day.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Screw that, Burke said he had concerns about Toskala on September 27. Took him 128 days to do something about it.
He doesn’t get a day for that, this isn’t Vancouver.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
But also Phaneuf!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess it’s more of the day I feel that he finally put his mark on the team, where he got rid of most of the old guard, and the next wave of Leafs started playing significant ice time.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
That was when he had his first misgivings. I don’t think he meant that he knew then and there that Toskala was going to be as terrible as he was.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Sure but I have a hard time giving him a free pass for ignoring “misgivings” when he’s already seen the consequences in Vancouver.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
128 days between misgivings and “see ya!”
That’s not so good.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
True
But it does take some time to learn.
Not to get too off topic but if I can compare Burke to Lincoln I will.
At the start of the Civil War Lincoln had an issue with Gen. Mclellan, he was always complaining that he didn’t have enough resources or men. He was also always convinced that the Confederates had him outnumbred two-to-one (it was usually the reverse). Most of his staff told Lincoln to fire Mclellan but he kept giving him chances. (he was very popular with the troops beneath him) So eventually he fired Mclellan, and whenever another commander gave him that sort of shit he fired them too. This is how Sherman got his own command and how the war was won.
Burke just needs to follow Lincoln and all will be well.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Burke’s been a GM for 11 years. If he still needs 128 to suss out Toskala this franchise is in way more trouble than I ever imagined.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I don’t think he does. I just don’t think another goalie gets that kind of leash.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
re: 128 days
the only way to criticize him for the delay is to have knowledge that he was completely passive (ie he didn’t attempt to make any moves to address the Vesa situation), or that he turned down a trade that he should have taken. were there goalies on waivers that at the time woudl have been a reasonable upgrade on Vesa?
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
The fact that he didn’t waive Toskala is grounds enough for me to critically question his inactivity.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Seriously, where would you have gotten a mid-season Toskala replacement that would have effectively sheltered Gustavsson while netting wins?
while netting wins
Given that Toskala was the worst goalie in the NHL last year, any other goalie would have “netted” more wins than him.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The way I understood waviers and the roster rules, he would have had to simultaneously recall MacDonald, who would have had to go through re-entry waivers.
If Joey Mac got claimed then I think the Toskala assignment would be nullified because the Leafs wouldn’t have an eligible roster.
Resident Capologist
Agreed.
But then again I think we oversimplify the whole process by saying that we just waive him.
Much like at your work, your boss wouldn’t just go around firing people on a whim, Burke doesn’t just put people on waivers because he feels like it. He’s proven himself to be a GM that’s very loyal to his players and wants them to succeed.
I think that we sometimes forget that there are so many more facets to the job of a GM other than just what gets replicated in an NHL video game.
Resident Capologist
this is true.
I’ve worked with a few Toskala’s before and been extremely disappointed at how long it takes to get rid of them.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
An .879 sv% and an inability to perform at the NHL level is not a “whim” it’s “with cause.”
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Okay then, let’s look at all the angles.
At the beginning of the season, we couldn’t pick up a goalie on waivers because a) none went on waivers and b) we had 50 contracts until the Tlusty trade.
We had MacDonald in the minors, but no guarantee that we could have gotten him through re-entry waivers, which would have had to happen to send Toskala down because otherwise we would have had one goalie on the NHL roster.
We can’t bench him because our only other goalie was a rookie who has having issues with his heart as a result of the workload being asked of him.
We had a boat anchor contract that nobody except Anaheim was willing to take, except they wanted to trade us a boat anchor contract that wsa almost twice as much, only we didn’t have the cap space to take that on because then we couldn’t have brought Kessel back in November.
Suddenly I’m seeing why it took 128 days to get Toskala out of here.
Resident Capologist
At the beginning of the season, we couldn’t pick up a goalie on waivers because a) none went on waivers and b) we had 50 contracts until the Tlusty trade.
You’re neglecting the free agent market. Legace put up a .907 for Carolina.
We had MacDonald in the minors, but no guarantee that we could have gotten him through re-entry waivers, which would have had to happen to send Toskala down because otherwise we would have had one goalie on the NHL roster.
I’m extremely doubtful anyone would claim MacDonald. Dude was on a one year, league minimum contract. If he does get claimed, sign a UFA.
We had a boat anchor contract that nobody except Anaheim was willing to take, except they wanted to trade us a boat anchor contract that was almost twice as much, only we didn’t have the cap space to take that on because then we couldn’t have brought Kessel back in November.
I have no idea what the above quote means.
Suddenly I’m seeing why it took 128 days to get Toskala out of here.
I still can’t justify 128 days of .879 sv%, blown games, bad attitude, mystery injuries etc.
Burke wants to change the culture? Jettison the guys that can’t play, by whatever means necessary.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I still can’t justify 128 days of .879 sv%, blown games, bad attitude, mystery injuries etc.
Right.
Long story short Toskala put up the worst single season goaltending performance in the butterfly era. Replacing him with literally anyone would have been an improvement.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on May 19, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right
Now he is gone, the season is done and next year we have Giguere and Gustavsson. Can’t we move on from Toskala already and forget about the NHL’s worst goalie?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole
No, because for me it’s not so much about Toskala as it is Burke’s ability to evaluate goaltenders and hold players accountable.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
this is what I’m hung up on too.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
But if Burke is aiming for a 3 or 4 year turnaround to the extent that he doesn’t care about winning this year, he’d be willing to eat a couple games in favor of a deal that will make the team stronger in a year or two.
He walked from the table when Toskala for Giggy was the counteroffer. This would’ve been an upgrade. Not a “make-the-playoffs” upgrade, but an upgrade. He didn’t take it. Not because he thought Toskala could hold down the fort – at least, I hope not – but because tossing Blake (or Finger) would make the team better next year (and the year after), which fits with his timeline.
I think signs of poor player evaluation would be more in kind with resigning Jamie “Placeholder” Lundmark, with the expectation that he gets better. Or Kabby, believing that he might fit in with the team.
I just don’t think waiting for a better deal on Toskala is/was a bid of confidence for Toskala.
Bower Power – what of changing the culture in the room and the need for accountability?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
What of it?
I don’t think waiving Toskala would’ve sent the same message to, say, Stajan or Blake, that said “you guys need to step it up or you’re next!” They were considerably different positions, it’d have been easy to shift blame, and, well, none of the other trades/waivers/signings seemed to push the team to another level.
I think trading Stajan or Blake, though, makes a good impact point to the rest of the team. Those were big names that’d been on the Leafs for a long time, and were still arguably putting up decent numbers at the time. To put it another way, JFJ/Fletcher wouldn’t have traded them. Burke made it more than clear that JFJ/Fletcher were gone, and that no one would be getting grandfathered in to Burke’s team.
I’m a lot more comfortable with The Kids learning/developing without Blake and Mayers in the room. Waiving Toskala does none of that. Holding out until the Ducks take Toskala and Blake? Better. Not ideal, but better.
So a guy can put up the worst modern era save percentage, have a bad attitude, refuse coaching but that’s ok because he plays a different position?
I think culture and accountability transcends what position a guy plays.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
No, I’m saying that if the players you’re trying to influence can (and are likely to) marginalize the departure of a teammate, then you’re not really doing much by just getting rid of that one guy.
Blake could’ve thought to himself, “I have a better attitude than he does, stats, I listen to Wilson…” and you’re not going to effectively get through to him. I’m not saying this with any certainty – I don’t think anyone can – but I don’t think waiving Toskala alone would’ve had a significant enough impact to outweigh the benefits of holding on to him and trading him – with Blake – for Giguere. Even if you want to throw in the pick difference for Boston.
I’m heading out to dinner, so I can’t keep rolling on this, though I think it’s an interesting discussion. But I stand by my original point:
“Saving” the season for anything less than a playoff birth wouldn’t have been worth losing the gains we got in the Giguere trade, a major gain of which was the departure of Jason Blake.
Burke turned the worst goalie in the league and an incredibly overpayed 3rd line winger into a Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup winning goalie.
I’m surprised it didn’t take longer than 128 days.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on May 19, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re neglecting the free agent market. Legace put up a .907 for Carolina.
Between Sept. 27 (Burke’s first doubts about Vesa) and Nov. 9 (the day Carolina signed Manny), we were at the 50 contract limit. Couldn’t have signed another goalie if we wanted to.
I’m extremely doubtful anyone would claim MacDonald. Dude was on a one year, league minimum contract. If he does get claimed, sign a UFA.
Anyone claiming him would have paid half of a one year, league minimum contract. You’re telling me Philly wouldn’t have gambled on a bit more depth for $250K?
I have no idea what the above quote means.
If at the end of September we traded Vesa for JS, we would have added about $2.5M cap space. We were already pretty much up against the cap. With Kessel’s 5.4 hit coming back in November, how would we have fit Giguere’s contract under the cap that early in the season?
All I’m saying is that there were a lot more variables that went into this decision other than “Vesa sucks; get rid of him”. Burke was handcuffed and that probably factored into why it took 128 days to ship him out.
The one thing that I will say was unforgivable was not having MacDonald start the year on the Leafs roster. With Gustavsson’s health concerns, he should have started with the Marlies, and then we would have had flexibility to waive Toskala.if he was so worried.
Resident Capologist
I don’t buy it. None of it.
The 50 player limit is a red herring.
You’re telling me Burke, the so-called genius GM, couldn’t move two marlies for one player or dump one AHL contract for a bag of pucks?
Gustavsson was waiver exempt, move him to the Marlies call up MacDonald and nail Toskala’s ass to the bench.
The bottom line(s):
The org preached accountability and did nothing for 6 months.
The org threatened to waive veterans and did nothing while the losses mounted.
Toskala was crap last year, was crap this year and it took Burke 128 days to do something about it.
Burke blew it with Cloutier, blew it with Bryzgalov and blew it with Toskala.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
the way you’re hung up on this 128 days thing is almost bizarre. we didn’t have a first round pick and the season was basically lost after an 0-8-1 start or whatever it was, so burke sat tight to see if he could get something – anything – for that piece of shit vesa. and he did. it was a fucking miracle. 29th and no jason blake is better than 22nd or 20th or 17th and jason blake for another 2 years. how do you not see this???
and how can any of you question burke’s committment to holding players accountable?? HE BLEW THIS FUCKING TEAM UP!!! is shipping someone off to another team not holding them accountable?
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
second.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I really think this sums up Burke’s strategy.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Sticking with Toskala was a critical error and Burke made it.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Waiving Toskala and getting nothing in return as opposed to Getting rid of Tosksla AND Blake and getting Giggy would have been a larger one.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe. But there are TONS of options for goalies this summer, and keeping Blake to get rid of Toskala sooner is something I’m totally fine with.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
You’d take two more years of Jason Blake just to lose Toskala a few weeks earlier. You must really hate Toskala.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably because Blake wasn’t that bad and his cap hit wouldn’t prohibit signing a cheap, veteran goalie.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
blake was a shithead and was bad in the dressing room by all accounts. he had to go, and burke gave up on a lost season so he could rid the room of not one but two big problems. in terms of ‘changing the culture’ – which people around here went on about ad nauseam – swapping vesa and blake for giggy is about as big a positive change i can imagine.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Burke gave up on a lost season in October?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
no. but by november probably. just like almost every single person here did. if anyone had posted here in november – “hey guys, they can waive vesa, get a waiver scraps goalie, turn things around and make the playoffs!” would have been fucking mocked mercilessly. but all of a sudden now, 8 months later, we’re all positive, like the season could have somehow been saved?? give me a break.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
After reading the comments
You’re putting words in their mouths for the “waive Vesa” crowd. Unless I read incorrectly, nobody said DFA’ing Vesa would instantly make the Leafs playoff contenders. What they did suggest, which to be fair is speculative no matter how much they argue otherwise, is make the Leafs more competitive. Keeping Vesa for that long, despite horrendous performance, achieved the opposite effect for Toronto.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
not waiving vesa, or doing something about the short-term goaltending situation, is being called a ‘critical error’.
either you think a quicker goaltending change would have marginally improved the team (in which case it wasn’t critical to not do it), or you think a goaltending change would have propeled the leafs to greatness, in which case not doing so was critical.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Then this is a matter of semantics I think. One could argue that by not being more proactive about the goaltending, Burke undermined the “rebuild” by allowing his team to lose. That forced Gustavsson to play a lot sooner than he was ready for, not to mention players like Schenn were left out to dry because of terrible goaltending exacerbated his sophomore mistakes.
If Vesa was off-handedly affecting the progression of the other young players by allowing a losing mentality, then I would say that’s a critical miscalculation.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Veas should have been waived.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
maybe. but unless you think the failure to do so cost the leafs the cup, or at least a playoff spot, it’s ridiculous to call it a ‘critical error’.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
It cost the Leafs a season. It burned another year of every ELC.
It undermined notions of accountability and changing the culture.
It was continuation of Burke’s inability to assess and manage goaltending.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Where did we get this fact that Blake was indeed a locker room cancer? For all intents and purposes, the fact he never publicly complained about revolving linemates and checking line status indicates to me that this “horrid” influence was overblown. Especially compounded because people already didn’t like Blake.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
no idea if it’s fact or not. there was certainly more ‘blake has a bad attitude’ chatter than there was ‘blake is a great locker room guy’ chatter.
in any event, there’s certainly enough evidence to indicate that there was a positive change in the dressing room after burke moved out those 5 or 6 guys.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Then this is heresy
I get why people dislike Blake. I wasn’t his biggest fan either. But to say Blake was a locker room cancer simply because there weren’t glowing reports from reporters and fans about him is dishonest. We’ve already established Blake wasn’t a fan favourite, so I doubt there would be a multitude of positive assessments over the guy.
And it’s not like Blake’s departure was the reason why the Leafs played a bit better. Nearly half the team was gutted with an infusion of younger legs.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
most ‘locker room’ chatter is speculation. and i didn’t say he was a cancer, just that there was a lot of talk that he was unhappy in TO and maybe was a possible problem in the locker room. impossible to say though, of course.
i didn’t say it was blake’s departure. i specifically said moving 5 or 6 guys (and bringing in Dion, Giggy + a couple of others) seemed to have a positive impact.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
i didn’t say it was blake’s departure. i specifically said moving 5 or 6 guys (and bringing in Dion, Giggy + a couple of others) seemed to have a positive impact.
Sure, and I agree. But really, it could just be an infusion of different talent and more opportunities for other players that attributed to the positive play more than locker room harmony.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
blake was a shithead and was bad in the dressing room by all accounts
Link? Source?
swapping vesa and blake for giggy is about as big a positive change i can imagine
Waiving Toskala and Blake and not being saddled with a $6.5M back-up goalie would be my preference.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
does anyone around here have a source when they talk about ‘locker room’ problems?
it’s been discussed here a lot, waiving veterans with big contracts is pretty rare. it happens, but it’s rare. burke showed you can completely gut a team and change the attitude in the locker room without having to waive or buy out anyone.
i think giggy will be a positive influence on Gus and on the rest of the team. If he can provide adequate backup tending, that’s not the worst waste of $6M in cap space for 1 year.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
I don’t doubt Giggy’s said positive influence. I think he’s a solid addition for the Leafs given the team’s set-up with Allaire and prospects. Having said that, I’m just not a big fan of vilifying Blake on traits like locker room negativity to justify a move like Phaneuf and Giguere as being the difference to a bad and good team. Locker room chemistry is overrated when you have a team devoid of talent.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
does anyone around here have a source when they talk about ‘locker room’ problems?
I certainly do.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
To the extent we are assessing Burke, not MLSE as a whole, “waive Toskala and Blake” is a red herring. There is NO WAY MLSE agreed to burn roughly $14MM like that (2 yrs of Blake @ $4MM, plus 3/4 of their $4MM salaries this past year).
I would agree the Marlies would have been the best possible outcome for both of them (I’d rather have $6MM in cap space than Giggy’s mentorship role), but it just wasn’t happening.
by The '67 Sound on May 20, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
If MLSE wouldn’t approve, why did Burke repeatedly threaten to waive veterans last October?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I think it’s pretty well established that on quite a few fronts Burke is full of shit.
Or put more generously he’s an artful bluffer. I’ve come across more than one situation in my professional life where a threat maybe have a deterrent effect even if the threatener knows that in reality it’s a bluff.
The art of course is not getting a reputation for being full of shit. Whether Burke falls into that category I leave to the true insiders. I doubt he’s worse than most of his colleagues.
by The '67 Sound on May 20, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s certainly one way to promote accountability and change the culture, oh wait…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
critical how? do you think the leafs were a playoff team if they waived vesa in december if yes – you’re crazy. if not – we’re better positioned now with giggy as opposed to vesa and blake, if not from an actual quality of player standpoint (giggy could and likely will be just as mediocre as blake), but from a mentor standpoint for Gus, from a positive locker room perspective, and from a cap perspective in 2011/12.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
valiquette?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
leighton?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the issue is that there weren’t really goalies on waivers between October and December.
However, ANY goalie would have been an upgrade.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Joey MacDonald was an upgrade over Toskala.
Valilquette was waived the first week of December. Claim him and dump Toskala.
We’re talking about the goalie who set the record for worst post-lockout save percentage.
On the PP, Toskala let in one out of every four shots….this is what the Leafs kept for 128 days?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
that’s where Jared comes in.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No we didn’t.
Leafs traded Tlusty in December for a non-SPC player.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
From October to December we did.
And no goalies went on waivers in that period.
So nobody could be grabbed on waivers that eearly, but we couldn’t claim them if we wanted to.
Resident Capologist
So you’re telling me that Burke couldn’t dump a single Marlie in return for a bag of pucks in order to clear space to waive Toskala?
Valiquette hit waivers December 3, that’s 59 days before Toskala was traded.
Manny Legace was unsigned and if I felt like hitting google, I’d guess I could find a few more warm bodies capable of hitting a .900 sv%
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I'm inclined to think that
There’s a reason Burke did not do this.
He didn’t just sit on his hands because he’s an idiot. For whatever reason he felt that that coarse of action was not appropriate. And just because there were other goalies available doesn’t mean they post better numbers. It would have been hard for them NOT to, but they aren’t guaranteed.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
But something around a .900 wasn’t entirely unpredictable. He hasn’t been “good” since pre-lockout.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Assuming you face 30 shots a game, it takes just over 33 games to face 1,000 shots in a season.
After facing 1,000 shots, the difference between an .874 and a .900 SV% is 26 more goals allowed, or 0.79 G/G over the 33 games.
There is a major difference between those two figures.
Resident Capologist
I’m agreeing no one could predict just how bad it was but I’m agreeing with mf that he should have been on high alert and should have moved faster when it became clear just how bad Toskalol was.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you have taken Toskala for Giguere straight up, when Anaheim was jumping at it months earlier than Toskala + Blake/Finger for Giguere?
Yes.
Why let the season go down the tubes for the sake of a $4M extra contract?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Down the tubes? Was some waiver wire acquisition going to catapult us into 8th place?
I mean, I was optimistic the year through, but I think we’re better off in the long run, ridding ourselves of the Blake contract and getting the ideal mentor for Gustavsson.
League average goaltending puts the Leafs in 20th spot.
I’d prefer the team play a few games that matter post-November than watching them lose night after night with Toskala’s .879 sv%
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
see 20th spot would be a huge improvement, and how much less painful would the draft be this year?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
League average goaltending puts the Leafs in 20th spot. 20th spot…gives the Bruins a worse pick. And keeps Jason Blake’s 3 million dollar 40 points on the Leafs for another 2 years.
OR eat the 29th, get the ideal goaltender to shelter and mentor the young prospect and ditch the 3m anchor, who, by all accounts, held a terrible attitude in the locker room.
I’m not saying the latter is some path straight to the cup, but I’m just not sold on the idea that ditching Toskala sooner would’ve put the Leafs in a better position than they are now.
My personal feeling is that when Burke was going to blow up the room, he wanted to do it one shot so as not to destroy morale for the entire year, with people worried that one bad game would punch their ticket out.
This maybe meant that he waitied slightly longer because he wanted to have all his ducks in a row. And that might have meant letting a potential deal sit on the backburner.
Resident Capologist
Jason Blake’s 3 million dollar 40 points on the Leafs for another 2 years.
Waivers; by taking on Giguere’s contract the Leafs save all of $2M.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Don't forget term
Blake actually earned his contract last year. Years 1 and 3 of his deal, not so much, and years 4-5 look pretty bad.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
In other words, we lose $2MM next year (when we’d suck anyways) but save $4MM the next (when we hope to contend).
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I would swallow Blake’s contract to get rid of Toskala earlier, yes.
Someone needs to do this, but seriously, I think this team would have been MUCH higher in the standings with another goalie. ANY other goalie that was in the NHL this past year.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Much higher, but certainly not competitive. When you don’t have a first round pick, anything below 8th place is just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.
Not tanking doesn’t really get you anything, except the satisfaction of undercutting the Bruins. Which is great, but probably not worth eating Blake’s contract.
this is where someone who’s much better at stats than me proves that Blake’s contract really wasn’t (isn’t) bad.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
41 points in 82 games with a -4 on the leafs and a -6 on the Ducks. Trending down. With intangibles that can be considered serious detractors. And 2 more years on the contract.
I don’t think I’ll ever be convinced that Blake could be part of the rebuilding Leafs.
he’s not part of the rebuilding, no.
But to suggest that it was more important to keep Toskala’s horrible goaltending just to be able to rid ourselves of Blake’s contract, rather than eject Toskala from the Leafs ASAP, is not something I agree with.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
We wouldn’t have been saved from poor goaltending, we just would’ve been saved from Toskala’s poor goaltending. Granted, his is a special brand of F-you-in-the-A poor goaltending…
But unless we could’ve found a goalie with enough games played to shelter Jonas and still put up a high enough SVP to get us into the playoffs, then there’s little difference in when we eject Toskala, and much more difference in the medium-range health of the team.
Agree.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
At the very least it is an unknown and cannot be reasonable assumed either way.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s being underestimated just how bad Toskala was this year.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Not saying that, but another goalie we picked up on waivers was not guaranteed to solve all our problems.
Obviously getting average goaltending would have made a huge difference, but we can’t know for sure if we would have gotten it. If average goaltending was the only thing that determined the standings than Florida would be in the playoffs.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying getting into the playoffs.
I’m saying make a difference to the team/season.
The biggest difference I can put into real terms is NOT giving the #2 overall pick to Boston.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
fair enough.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
there’s little difference in when we eject Toskala, and much more difference in the medium-range health of the team.
What ever happened to changing the culture in the room?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Blake was a HUGE part of that culture. I think someone else brought up a great point, too, that blowing a team up on one day is much better for the “culture.” Ripping a bandaid off, rather than peeling it, if you will.
How many teams blow-it up in one shot?
Post-lockout, trades have become pretty rare.
Multi-player deals, rarer still.
if you look at the context of player personnel moves in the NHL, I’d suggest your band-aid metaphor is a stretch.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Chemmy did the math and this is what he concluded:
We currently get terrible .890 goaltending. If we got .915 goaltending for 60 games from our starter and .905 goaltending for 22 games from our backup we’d be in the .913 range at the end of the year. That probably would have won us the eighth spot in a weak East.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
That’s where it’s from.
Bookmarking.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing that really hurts is how awful the East was this year.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Really really awful.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Just did the math out; if we finished with a .913 we’d have had 92 points and we would have had the sixth seed.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
this makes me want to swear.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
also would have knocked the habs to 9th
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Similarly, here is the page sort for goalies with 60 games played.
5 of the 14 still didn’t pull .915. You’ve targetted NINE goaltenders. And that’s ignoring that our backup – who admittedly played 40 games, rather than the 20 Chemmy suggested – didn’t meet that .905. (Jonas posted .902 over 42 gp)
OK, finding a goalie to get us into the playoffs was a remote possibility.
But you don’t think being in 20th place would’ve been better? That’s only .900 goaltending.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
How would it have been better? We’d have the same 1st round pick (none), we’d have…a better second round pick, I suppose?
But we’d still be tied down with Jason “Mopey” Blake, and 3 mil burned on a 40 point season. He’s not providing leadership or strong intangibles – quite the opposite, he’s harmful to the locker room.
And that’s only assuming that someone pulled the trigger on Giggy-Vesa straight up. We wouldn’t have gotten Giguere if we had just waived Toskala.
I’d have loved to hand the bruins a 10th overall, but it’s more than a little inaccurate to say that our season could’ve been saved by ditching Toskala ASAP. And I think holding on for a Finger/Blake giveaway made the team considerably better in the short/medium run.
I’d have loved to hand the bruins a 10th overall, but it’s more than a little inaccurate to say that our season could’ve been saved by ditching Toskala ASAP.
Why? Toskala is the worst goalie the league has seen in a LONG time. Ditching him sooner wouldn’t have had a big impact on our season? Really?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It definitely would’ve had an impact on our season. This season. But what about next season?
The gain from not having Toskala OR Blake around next year is, I’d say, worth the 180 days of Toskala and the 8 pick difference on a pick we don’t even own. Especially if you want to include the advantages of having Giggy.
True, the former has a tangible impact on the future of our roster. The later just makes us all feel better about that pick we gave to Boston.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Ty Conklin.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt he would’ve kept that pace up over 60 games. If he could’ve, STL would’ve played Conklin over Mason.
I agree, just answering your question literally for the sake of argument.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
the thing that scares me about this is that it’s becoming clear that you don’t need a highly paid #1 goalie to be successful in the playoffs.
But going for a more middling-salaried goalie is quite risky, especially when your GM is Brian Burke who does not seem to be able to evaulate goalie talent very well.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it was just that Allaire hadn’t seen enough of him yet. I think that goaltender evaluation has got to fall to him, to a certain extent. Ultimately, of course, it’s Burke’s responsibility to make the right moves, but I’d bet that Allaire has a much better handle on what we have in our goaltenders now.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
This is true, and I certainly hope this is why Burke hired Allaire as a goaltending consultant.
At this point, it looks more to me like Burke is trying to get every “Free” goalie he can and is hoping like heck that Allaire can make something out of them.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha yup.
“I’ve got another one for ya, Francois! Turn this into gold. kthxbai”
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
did he though? he went aggressively after gustavsson, so he coudln’t have had that much faith in toskala. and he was forced into playing vesa more than he probably wanted after gus’ surgery. it’s not like someone was going to take vesa off our hands on Oct 1st and give us a good goalie in return… i think he was kind of f’d. then when toskala was the worst goalie in the league, he was completely f’d.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Of course he went after Gustavsson agressively – he had traded away Pogge leaving us only Reimer as a goalie prospect.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
He also brought in Joey Mac in the summer. I think Burke likes to have a Plan A B and C when it comes to goaltending
by WendelMadeMe on May 19, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s said as much in interviews, IIRC.
Something along the lines of “I never want to be caught without depth in the goaltending position”
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Joey Mac basically was of little to no help to us this year.
Had we actually been able to bring him up to the NHL and send Toskala to the AHL, he may have been, but we couldn’t.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know that Joey Mac would have been claimed on waivers. If I’m the Leafs, it’s a risk I’m willing to take.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I would think it’s a risk willing to take as well. And if he’s claimed, deal with it and later claim Micheal Leighton or something.
Our goaltending this year seems woefully mis-managed to me.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
After Burke pulled those trades off though, I’ve started to re-evaluate the whole “Just send the Vets to the minors” philosophy. If he had done that, he never would have been able to trade any of them away. Tough to know what would have been the better choice.
But ya Joey Mac did little-to-nothing for us. Poor Joey Joe Joe.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
This was an on-going debate around here.
You have to ice a team, you need to give the kids time in the minors, and you need to think of potential – even nominal – returns at the trade deadline.
That said, I would have waived Toskala early last year and I’d waive Jeff Finger next October.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’d waive Jeff Finger next October.
I can’t think of a single person outside of MLSE who would disagree with you.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The pattern was set when they refused to buyout Belfour, with no consequences for the cap, post-lockout. A one time only get out of jail free card and MLSE passed. Damn them to hell.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have bought out McCabe too.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Can’t remember, but wasn’t the year after the lockout the last year of McCabe’s contract?
It wouldn’t have made sense to buy him out after the lockout, because he still had a decent contract. Now if you wanted to trade him at that deadline because he was a pending UFA and we should have been sellers, that’s a different story.
Resident Capologist
I would have done either/or.
My very first blog entry in March 2006 pondered why JFJ didn’t buyout Belfour and McCabe.
I also blogged about why McCabe (and Tucker) should have been dealt as pending UFAs instead of being inked to bad deals.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Yeah, I don’t think buying out McCabe made sense given that he was on a good contract and was awesome in 05/06, but a trade was definitely in order for him and Tucker. Stupid JFJ.
Baby steps, but definitely an improvement letting Poni, Antro, Stajan go. JFJ would have re-signed them.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
No way with JFJ do we end up with Kessel or Phaneuf.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
There was a great case to buy-out McCabe – the biggest reason was the post-lockout cap was tiny and McCabe and Belfour were eating up a huge portion of it.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
How much was he making the first year after the lockout?
I just checked capgeek, and his current deal didn’t start until Year 2 (06-07).
Resident Capologist
$3.5MM
Even with the $40MM cap to me that made him trade bait, not waiver fodder. That was the equivalent of a sub $5MM contract now, and he was coming off a HUGE year.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
McCabe was making $3.5M, which was nearly 10% of the original cap $39M cap.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Yeah, the equivalent of a $5MM deal today.
I’ll take 68 points (and top 5 calibre GVT #s) from a D-man for $5MM.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
So you’re saying that McCan’es $5.75MM contract really isn’t much of an overpayment?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
oh
except that he’s no longer top 5 calibre GVT
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t forget, it was also the largest pool of UFA talent ever available and the Leafs options were limited due to their salary commitments to Mats, Belfour and McCabe.
A Belfour buy-out was a no-brainer and McCabe had looked just awful in the playoffs against Philly.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I just think he was tradeable.
We all agree re. Belfour.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s bizarre is that I think Anaheim wanted Blake. He doesn’t reek of “salary dump” despite us wanting to be rid of him.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I remember a story reporting that they wanted Toskala for Giguere straight up, and Burke said they would have to take either Finger or Blake. Anaheim walked away from the table for a bit, then came back when they got no bites on Giggy, and took Blake.
The truth may be that Burke said they had to take Finger as well, and then Anaheim negotiated their way up to Blake.
Wade Redden cost the Rangers a hell of a lot more net cap space than Dion did the Leafs.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry to be a dumb guy, but how so?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Not sure, but he may have meant that
They have Redden for a full six years at a cap hit of 6.5. The Leafs have Phaneuf for four and a bit at 6.5. Furthermore, at the time Redden’s deal was negotiated, the cap was lower, and it constituted a greater percentage of the team’s cap.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Just that the Dion move sent salaries to Calgary in return for his.
The Redden FA deal is the full salary added to the cap hit for the Rangers.
While we were on the topic of arguing the +/- asset return for the two guys.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Regarding:
I was responding to Sergei’s ludicrous statement that you can assess a player’s value based on the assets expended to acquire him.
Using that formula, Wade Redden’s value would be pretty good as he was a UFA and didn’t cost any assets to acquire.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
regardless of the assets moved, there is no doubt that phaneuf is a gamble at that salary. but the reality is there are very few d-men of his pedigree (age + skill + potential) in the league, so it’s not an unreasonable gamble to take. and really, what move isn’t a gamble? every signing, trade, and draft pick can blow up in your face.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
exactly, there are very few safe bets.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
also, there is a very high chance we will get to see phaneuf ‘okposo’ someone from montreal or ottawa in the near future
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I see what you’re saying, I just think the degree of difficulty for what Burke’s pursuing is off the charts. Teams have won Cups by having $7MM+ value players making $1-2MM. We’re trying to do it, hopefully, with a bunch of $3-5MM players making somewhat less than that.
Cap sports are an efficiency contest and I just don’t see the massively underpaid players on our roster that seem to characterize Cup winners.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm guessing here
But I think that Burke thinks Kadri is going to be one such player, and that Kessel, in a couple years time, is going to look underpaid. The Monster has the potential to be quite underpaid, as is the case with Kulemin. Maybe one of these cheap deals comes from a prospect we get in a Kaberle deal – who knows?
I don’t disagree with you on the level of difficulty of what Burke has undertaken, but he obviously thinks he can do it, because he’s gambling big.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Here I’ll definitely agree with you. The easiest bet to having a massively underpaid player is goalies. And since they are so erratic, they’re like lottery tickets. The more tickets, the better chances of a winner.
I guess I’m pessimistic on Kadri being a superstar. My hopes for him are more in the 50-70 point range—and that’s after a couple years.
If he can somehow turn Kaberle into a cheap, frontline player I’ll be doing cartwheels.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Never underestimate the powers of Burke, and the stupidity of other GMs.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Look at the teams who are left in the playoffs – except for Nabokov, all 3 have their #1 goalie <$1m
Niemi: $800k
Halak: $800k
Leighton: $600k
Hell even Rask was at $850k before Boston got eliminated. And Varlamov was $822k
Getting bang for your buck out of your goaltenders seems to be a key theme.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but he sucks
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Right.
But his tiny salary was key to keeping their other big names. Still decent bang for buck.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Enough that his name keeps coming up as a Calder nominee
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
He plays for the Wings the NHL has a quota of individual awards they must win each season.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Makes a good argument not to re-sign Giggy after next year, assuming he wants $3M or more per year (which i’m assuming he will)
I really hope 1 more year as tandem with Giggy gives Monster enough time to come into a #1 spot (or tandem with one of our other projects i.e. Reimer, Rynnas)
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
It should be
/crosses fingers.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Hopefully.
Gustavsson looked pretty good towards the end of last season, and with another year under Allaire, I’ve got to think that we’ll get at least league-average goaltending.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Regardless of how well he plays next year I wouldn’t offer Giggy more than $1.5MM given two consecutive bad years now.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
If he’s actually a good mentor for Gus (and maybe our other goalies), MLSE should just pay him $1.5M to be the goalie coach haha.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Giggy still wants to be a number one goalie though, so I expect he will get offers of 3 mill from some team, and Burke might very well match that if none of the other kids are ready
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Ya, thats why i still think our goaltending future is a big question mark. Going to depend on how things unfold for Giggy and the rest of our goalies.
The unfortunate part about that is its hard to include question marks in future cap considerations.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely. I think at any given time there are no more than 3-5 goalies worthy of long term big money deals (currently? Vokoun, Miller, Lundqvist, and that’s it). Otherwise, ride the hot hand and then move on to the next one if they demand to get paid.
I mean, look at all the terrible goalie contracts: Giggy, Kipper, Ward, Fleury, Huet, Backstrom, Thomas, the list goes on and on.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Yup, him too. He was on the list 3 years ago but he’s been in a steady decline.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean, he was on the “safe to pay” list three years ago, and now he’s arguably on the terrible contract list, which shows you perhaps it’s never safe to pay a goalie big money.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I notice Luongo was not on that list… 1 more year until his name gets filed under “terrible goalie contracts”?
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
he has about one more epic playoff meltdown left in him before he gets the clouts treatment
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
If it happens at the hands of the Blackhawks again, I will die laughing.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Vancouver Canucks… the new Ottawa Senators?
I like this comparison, because it makes the Leafs the new Blackhawks.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Well they’ve got the “undeserving, self-righteous, why-won’t-you-pay-attention-to-me” fanbase already, so they’re half way there.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Elliot Friedman wrote an article describing how this attitude has transferred to the players.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Elliott Friedman has been nailing it lately. Really enjoying his interviews and articles.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I have been following his 30 thoughts since the end of January, great stuff.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Problem with this is
You’re forgetting the back ups/starters.
Huet: $5 million
Thomas: $5 million (Rask is getting $1.25 mill next year)
Price: $2.2 million
Emery+Boucher: $1.5 million + $925,000 = $2.425 million
Osgood: $1,416,666
Theodore: $4.5 million
It’s not like those teams rode those young cheap goalies all season long. Theodore, Huet, Emery, Osgood, Price, and Thomas all started roughly half the season, and played reasonably well. They just aren’t in the playoffs.
That means their goaltending cost a lot more than those < $1 mill numbers you’re tossing around.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 19, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
So yeah just to clear up my point
Here is what those teams spent on goaltending:
CHI: $6,425,000
WAS: $5,321,666
BOS: $5,850,000
MON: $3,000,000
PHI: $4,325,000
DET: $2,133,332 (Winners?)
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 19, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh and
SJS: $6,450,000 (which is still the most on the list, but only $25 K more than Chicago).
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 19, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I think any time you can get league average or better goaltending for a total of $3MM or less, you’re laughing.
We can hopefully look forward to that starting in 2010-11.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Truth
You’re preaching it.
Other low cost goaltending teams:
LAK: $2.55 combined
CLB: $2.105 combined
ATL: $2.5 combined
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha true, fair enough. But LAK is the closest I think, and they have Quick for 3 more years at $1.8M per. Not bad, especially with Bernier slated to be the backup after next year (or maybe in 2010/2011 in Ersberg shits the bed)
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i want a cup too
i know that;s the end goal, but honestly, at this point I’d settle for not being a laughingstock for a while.
Let’s get good before worrying about how to get to great
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
there’s just more than one way to rebuild, and so far, we’ve been doing a pretty good job of doing that without having to wait for talent to grow up through the draft.
I would like to know by what measure one could could conclude the Leafs have done a good job of re-building.
The two advantages to our situation are a faster turnaround time and (hopefully) not being in a cap mess later.
Can you explain what you mean by faster turnaround time? The team finished 29th and most folks I know aren’t confident the Leafs will make the playoffs in 2010-11.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Ya I’m not sold on the faster turnaround time yet. We are still a few years away from finding out if any of these FA and prospects are going to pan out at all.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh it’s not at all a certainty. But I guess Burke thinks he can do it, otherwise, as I mentioned earlier, he wouldn’t have gambled on guys like Phaneuf and Kessel.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Still, they’re both locked in for another 4 years. If we can become credible before the end of their contracts i’ll be happy.
Next year would be nice but I have very low expectations. We all hope our players will have breakout seasons but it is much more likely a few will regress further, and it’s impossible to predict who.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I think its just a fastER turn around, maybe 3 years instead of 5
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Well
First question: Burke has managed to stockpile young assets without having much in the way of draft picks
Second: It might not work, but I think Burke is trying to make this team competitive (as in, playoff-bound) as soon as 2011, which is probably a year or two sooner than if we had sat back and waited for draft pick to move up through the system.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Burke also had to pay triple the salary of a standard ELC by going after NCAA UFAs instead of the using the draft.
So, sure, he stockpiled picks and may have shortened the turn-around time, but it didn’t come without cost – in this case, much larger cap hits and less salary flex.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
True they cost a little more.
But for one thing, the contracts are shorter, and thus easier to move if absolutely necessary. Second, as I said above, since these guys are often already 23 or 24, we have a better idea of what they will become, and when these short contracts expire, we are not stuck with dead weight. Third, because they will only be on the cusp of their best potential NHL years, they can be signed for reasonable second contracts, unlike a lot of the other rookies that bounce out of their draft day ELC’s and into a much larger contract.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
ELCs are 3 years, NCAA UFAs to date have been 2 year deals, so they’re all of one year shorter.
In terms of dead weight, there is no difference between ELCs expiring and NCAA UFA contracts expiring.
Both groups of players (NCAA and draft picks) are RFAs when their initial contracts expire. They have the exact same rights and the exact same leverage. Big second contracts have nothing to do with when/how they were initially signed.
NCAA UFA contracts count against the 50 SPC limit, draft picks don’t until they sign their deal and leave their junior clubs.
NCAA UFA contracts also have limited waiver protection in their second year, whereas ELCs are pretty much waiver exempt, giving the team more flex in terms of movement.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Points taken about the limited waiver protection and expiring ELC's.
Hanson and Gustavsson were both on a one-year deals, though. Also, since the NCAA and European players are older, it’s less of a concern that they’ll be able to stick with either the Marlies or the Leafs (depending on where the Leafs initially decide to put them), because we already have a better handle on what they’ll become.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Hanson’s deal was 2 years – he played for the Leafs in 2008-09 and 09-10.
You are correct about Gustavsson though – good call.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Also,
I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but Rickard Wallin was a one-year experiment. Granted, he wasn’t a kid, and I guess you wouldn’t have called him a prospect even when we signed him, but he did have potential to step up in Toronto. It didn’t work so well, of course, but he was a low-risk signing.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
He and Shoestrings had some chemistry on the PK at the end of the season.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Wallin fits into a second category that I’m hugely in favour of: one or two year low-cost deals for veterans that enable the kids to develop with either sheltered minutes at the NHL or heavy play in the AHL.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Agree.
Small contracts like that are an important part of a rebuild. I guess the crux of my argument in the post is that an additional advantage is that it helps us stay flexible with regards to developing other players, but also keeping us unconstrained as far as cap hit goes.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I think your first point is undercut a wee bit by the reason we have no draft picks.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
we can follow the Philly/Montreal model and ride a ridiculously hot goalie!!!1
As I think we’re seeing now, this isn’t the most sustainable model haha.
Remember how Ottawa ended up making the playoffs? Friggin Brian Elliott had a rediculous hot streak that potted them a what, 12 game win streak or something? That’s a huge 24 point boost mid-season. Stupid Senators.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
oh, the one that we put an end to? :)
by Robot Godzilla on May 19, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
with a 5-0 shutout I believe.
That was glorious.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
oh man. I went to the game. They played this clip after the anthem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRmmHPE8EvA skip to 1:24
It. was. amazing.
by Robot Godzilla on May 19, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
So what you’re saying is that Kadri will lead us to a cup before his ELC is up.
I can get on board with this.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
ha ha
It’s the only conceivable option.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I really think
That this is exactly what Burke has in mind. That’s why he trades for Phil Kessel. He says to himself “OK, I’ve got a good winger, I’ve got an up-and-coming centre, so I’ve got 2/3 of a top line. Next, I’ll need some solid, young defense.” So he goes out a gets Phaneuf. Next on the list is goaltending, and he grabs two out of Europe that might be the answer to our problems, and if they’re not, hopefully they can act as stop gaps until we can pick up something decent via free agency.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
A lot of ?s about our future goaltending. At least we’re acquiring as many goalie prospects as we can, hopefully one pans out to get at least average goaltending.
C’mon Gus Giggy Juicy Scrivens Reimer, one of you better step the fuck up!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions
sounding more and more like the Philadelphia model.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
nah, that would be snatching goalies off of waivers and praying to god one can perform at a high level
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Hahah,
Well it’s a pretty similar plan, given that the goalies we’re giving tryouts to stand roughly the same chances of making a significant impact in the league.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
yeah, but the ones the Leafs are getting are young kids who have recently broken out and are being brought in to be groomed into NHL starters, not thrown in the fire and see if they float
ah i love mixing metaphores
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Hrm. I’d call what Gustavsson went through last year being thrown in either the fire or the deep end of the pool, whichever metaphor you want. He’s 25 at this point, so maybe not so much of a kid. Rynnas, on the other hand, we’ll hopefully shelter more, as he is only 22.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
yeah, but the original plan for Gus was to ease him into the NHL game with maybe 20-25 games against softer teams. But then Toskala exploded and there wasnt much choice
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem with the original plan was it heavily relied on Toskala being ToskaLORD and not ToskaLOL.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, his heart exploded… twice
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 19, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Once you look back on Gus’ year, he really did get thrown into the fire. First the death of his mother makes him miss the worlds, then dealing with the craziness of being persued but tons of NHL teams, then signing in a hockey hotbed, then being forced to be a starter because ToskaLOL got “injured”, then having not 1 but 2 heart “adjustments”. All the while having a team of 3rd liner Vets in front of him.
I hope the kids can give him a better showing next year.
I know that Theodore had a horrible tragic year as well, but I still think Monster is right up there in terms of deserved Masterton winners.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, the next season should be easier on gus from a mental standpoint at least. He seemed to settle in much better after the olympic break when his health issues seemed done and he was allowed some time to decompress.
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
The whole team looked and felt different. It was a happy time, despite the fact that we had already been blown out of the playoffs.
Go post-deadline Maple Leafs – the most unstoppable force in the NHL!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
if watching the Flyers has shown me one thing, its that a defense built like the Leafs is is worth its weight in gold in the post season
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Pronger is still nails.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Uh-Huh. And this year proves that all you need to do is qualify for the playoffs and anything can happen.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
re: Gustavsson
what I liked seeing from him was, despite having such a hard year personally, he never seemed to miss a beat.
he appears to be incredibly strong mentally, which as a goalie in Toronto, can only be seen as a strength. As the season progressed, so did Monster. His games at the end of the year looked much improved from the beginning, and I expect that trajectory to continue through next season.
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on May 19, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s a great one regardless of intent.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
it’s too early for me to be witty, i just fell into that one…
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on May 19, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
i just fell
grabbo joke?
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
You forgot ‘learning to play in an NHL sized rink’ and all the adjustments that come with that and a new team in front of him.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 19, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe if we could stitch them together into a Frankengoalie….
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Or combine their powers either Power Rangers style or Captain Planet style.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been pitching this for a while now.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Damnit 1990’s Saturday morning cartoons, WHY AREN’T YOU REAL LIFE?
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I think what you meant was Voltron.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
WTF?
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s one helluva gamble if Burke looked at Kadri and thought that enough potential talent to go after Kessel.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
He’s the kind of man who walks into a Casino and puts everything on Black 13.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
False. He’s the kind of guy who realizes roulette is retarded, and goes and kills it at the poker table.
Resident Capologist
no one can read his poker face
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
If by roulette you mean the draft and poker table you mean negotiating table, I agree.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
black jack or nothing
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
There are many explanations.
I think the biggest one is that upper level talent can be very hard to come by at the NHL and you grab it when it’s available.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
But I think in order to do that, he had to have confidence in his team’s be competitive within the timeframe of Kessel’s contract.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Kessel signed a five year deal. Do you think a guy with Burke’s ego is going to think he can’t ice a competitive team in that time frame?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Well you said it was a big gamble.
I think it’s not so crazy that in the next 3 years, Kadri puts up good numbers on the cheap.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
He will have to because he’s likely going to be the only player that will vastly outperform his contract.
I think that was Elliotte’s point. Short-term, all four of those teams won Stanley Cups on the backs of those kids on ELCs. Sure, they are in tight now but they won a Cup.
Burke’s method I do think has shortened the timeline he has to work with but it’s also made his margin for error much smaller.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
So in 3 years, on Kadri’s last year of his ELC, we’re going to win the cup.
I’m already circling my calender and looking for 4th round playoff tickets at the ACC.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that it’s both.
Regardless of whether Burke felt we had talent up and coming, he saw a guy who he believed was top end talent and who was available. He signed him.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
No. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.
What I was trying to say was: it’s a huge gamble to acquire talent specifically to augment a single 18 year-old draft pick.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’ll agree with that. But that’s the risk Burke has taken.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I don’t know if it’s to augment Kadri. Kessel showed this year that he can elevate those around him. Unless that was Savard under Bozak’s jersey.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Why I never, he wasn’t injured at all!
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The other thing is
And, of course this is only speculation, but maybe Burke comes up with another prospect who can outperform his ELC with a Kaberle trade.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I think he expected them to be competitive this year. He thinks they’re going to be dominant in that time frame.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
upper level talent can be very hard to come by at the NHL and you grab it when it’s available.
a little photoshop magic, and I’ll have mf37 approving the Kessel trade in no time! :P
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on May 19, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s one of the main points that Chemmy and I debated when the Kessel deal was just about to happen.
I still think it’s a bad trade, but I can understand why it was done.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
The additional ? with the Kessel deal will be what Burke can do with Kaberle this offseason.
Even though he wasn’t part of the deal, he was part of the deal that fell through, and we will forever debate whether Kessel + Kadri + (whatever we get from Kaberle) is worth more or less than Hall/Seguin + (2nd rder this year) + (1st rder next year).
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope Burke extends Kaberle just for the 1,800+ comment post that would result at PPP.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
So much gnashing of teeth.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
1,800+ comment post
That is a huge understatement.
It would be several 1800 posts.
I still think this is still well within the realm of possibility. Burke has “threatened” to re-sign him (which we assume is all for show) but if he can get him on the cheap for a few more years he might (if no one gives him any good offers). If it includes a NTC though I would explode.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see an NTC for Kaberle happening, fool me once.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I was surprised that they even gave Kessel one, until I learned that it was only limited and available in only certain years.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Would it really be the worst thing, though?
I know he had a rough fourth quarter this past season, but his stats seem to indicate that he can easily return to form. Maybe we let Beauchemin go and keep Kabby if he signs for cheap? Better than getting crap for him in a trade.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Worst thing is that he walks as a UFA.
Even worse, we get a great trade deadline deal for him and he nixes it.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see him walking as a UFA, seems like we’ll have to tell him we’re taking him for a car ride and abandon him on the side of the road in BF-Nowhere.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
All we need is for Kadri to step up and tally 60 points, Kulemin to rack up 65+ points, Gustavsson to post .915 and 2.50, for Bozak and Kessel to post 75+ points and Phanuef to score 15-20 goals and we’ll be fine.
I’m being facetious, but out performing your contract is a big deal for team success.
(also, kudos to the author)
BS
It’s so simple even Phaneuf could have figured it out!
But seriously Phaneuf – start scoring. That ‘C’ better inspire some better shooting.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
2 goals in his last 2 games!
he’s on a roll!
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
He needs to be Pronger like, during Pronger’s best years.
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Since we’re in fantasyworld, don’t forget 50 points out of Stalberg, 40 out of Caputi, 30 out of Hanson, and of course a Hart Trophy from Bobby Ryan after we trade Kaberle for him!
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks!
I’d like to point out that some of these things you’re joking about are actually feasible, though. Phaneuf has scored 20 goals, admittedly only once, but 15 – 20 goals is within reach.
Kadri can easily tally 60, though maybe not this coming season, Kulemin… meh, well anything is possible. Bozak and Kessel can easily develop into 75 point guys, too. These guys could actually all hit these marks, just maybe not next year. If they do, Plea From A Cat Named Felix’s Philadelphia comparison might look pretty good.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Vindication!
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s true it could all happen. Including Stalberg getting 50, Caputi getting 40 and Hanson getting 30.
It’s just the chances of it all happening in one season (not to say that’s what you are suggesting) = Lightning in a bottle.
Perhaps if the team sticks together and works hard all of the above could be a possibility by 2011-2012
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
maybe it's already been said
as there’s a crap load of comments already for this post (which is a good thing…) and i’m only an hour and change removed from waking up but…
I think Burke’s acquisition of Phaneuf was more to do with changing the dressing room atmosphere than his skills on the ice (which, depending on who you ask, ain’t too shabby or are in decline.) Most of Burke’s moves, to me, appear to be in response to that atmosphere.
I think that these moves (Giguere and Phaneuf) had far more to do with the attitudes off the ice, than solidifying the positions. In that respect, I can see Giguere being resigned, and possibly overpaid, to maintain the status quo. Obviously, just an opinion based on nothing more than gut feeling, but I think the team attitude is far more important to Burke than the money being paid them (if that makes any sense…)
I also think that Phaneuf has made one of Beauchemin or Komisarek a bit of a luxury. For a team that is definitely still squarely in the rebuilding side of things, I’m not convinced that’s proof positive of roster flexibility. I understand it’s a good thing to have depth, but the cost (and age) of said depth is cumbersome. Obviously, Jeff Finger isn’t going anywhere, unless Burke manages to package him in a deal a la Toskala and Blake. Not really having a point here, am I…?
Oh, ya. I’d argue the team has some (a “modicum” if you will) of cap flexibility, but given the relative inexperience and lack of high end skill on the forward lines, I don’t think there’s roster flexibility. In essence, if I look down the list of names the Leafs have for skaters, I don’t see a whole lot of question marks. Basically, after Kadri, I’d say this team, in it’s current state, will look the exact same as it did the last few months of this past season. Burke has cap space to make some moves, but the current players don’t afford much flexibility internally. Make sense?
Basically, I like what Burke has done with the team, short term. However, long term, I’m still trying to wrap my head around how all this is going to work. Sorry, I’m all willy-nilly this AM…
That said, fantastic post (as always) Mr. Fox!
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on May 19, 2010 10:39 AM EDT reply actions
The biggest thing I took away from this is that most of his moves were done to facilitate what most of us agree was necessary – a culture change.
No more country club. And trying to build from the net out (although that hasn’t worked out well yet).
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
He definitely has vision for the identity of his team.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
From The Rink Article
It’s a tall task to expect a general manager to be an expert in management, talent evaluation, negotiation, roster management, the collective bargaining agreement, markets, valuation and hockey operations. But an owner should realize that a general manager with the hubris to believe that they are an expert in all of those things isn’t the right fit for the organization. Building a core management team with multiple members each possessing expertise in all of these things is the only way to avoid the pitfalls of the cap-killing contract.
This article talks about some of the Cap-killing contracts out there. Two Things:
1. This is why I’m glad we kept Nonis.
2. Let’s all point and laugh at Edmonton.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 10:53 AM EDT reply actions
A great, great article
the reason for the Oilers struggles is that they signed inflated long-term contracts with bottom-of-the-lineup players and cap-locked themselves, preventing them from adding desperately-needed depth at the NHL level.
This is exactly why I hope Burke stays away from the UFA market unless it’s cheap and short-term.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope that is his strategy.
Also never acquire Steve Staios.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
haha, sutter
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec’d
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
And we shouldn’t be too smug. I’m betting a neutral observer would say four of our top seven D-men have cap-killing contracts.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
This is true. But we weren’t mentioned in the article so it’s okay for now.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
shhhh
No one’s looking at us there.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
exactly.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
But then you had to go and poke the ’Nucks fans!!!
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Finger, Phaneuf, Komisarek...
And who? Beauchemin?
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Yup
He hasn’t been good since ’07. He was hurt most of ’08 and his ’09 was just as mediocre as last year.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
so, you're saying he's due to come back?
we deserve a little dumb luck :)
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
the Leafs were (and still are) one of only three teams to not make the playoffs since the lockout (the other two are Florida and Atlanta)
Atlanta made the playoffs in 06-07.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
that’s depressing
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh dear.
I don’t think I can stand to correct that.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
it’s pretty pathetic, only us and florida haven’t made the playoffs since the lockout.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
so basically
fuck you McCabe?
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 19, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, can we kill JFJ.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm Brian Burke and this is what I do with Mike Van Ryn
I sign him to a 2 year deal at $2M per season. Take a chance that his injury troubles suddenly go away (Gaborik anyone?), and take a chance that he goes back to being the MVR of old. You get a bargain contract out of it and a great defenceman. It’sd a no-brainer roll of the dice if you ask me, that salary won’t even count against the cap if he gets hurt.
Many people forget just how talented this guy is. He’s basically a career .5 PPG defenceman and he’s only 31 years old. On top of that, I know for a fact that he’s one of the most well-liked guys in that dressing room and I also know for a fact that the young players love him. (I know someone who works at MLSE)
Phaneuf – Schenn – Beauchemin – Komisarek – Van Ryn – Gunnarson
All those guys playing at or even near their best would for sure, hands down, give us the best defence core in the NHL.
Who’s with me?
agreed
this hinges on Kaberle being traded, as there is always the chance no one offers Burke the price he wants and Kabby gets an extension
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
We just need to ensure that he drinks plenty of milk
/checks Van Ryn’s fridge

Cuss.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
The downside to this idea:
Maybe he just gets a bit hurt, and is only out for 10 games at a time on 4 separate occasions (this is possible, especially with concussions, I think). Then, not only does he stay on our salary cap, but he is constantly disrupting the lineup, and probably doesn’t perform well.
That said, I agree with you that we should re-sign him. I think he’d even take less than $2M a season to come back.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
From a locker room presence, re-signing MVR makes tons of sense
I’m just not sure it will happen because of the 50 million defensemen we already have.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, all things point to MVR being a fantastic locker room guy, so who knows
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d sign him to less than $2m per year, but that’s just me.
If he’s game shape definitely re-sign him. All we hear from the Leafs is that they love the guy and he likes being a Leaf, so why not.
give us the best defence core in the NHL
one of the best ON PAPER. We’ll see if its actually the best once the season starts.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh man.
When you say the words “best defence on paper” it makes me think of a few threads around here before the beginning of this season. Sad.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Unfortunately, the paper it was written on was full of holes.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
someone erased half of Schenn’s name (haw, wordplay)
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd do it but...
One-year, $750K, bonus-laden contract. That’s maximum
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I think this has been discussed before, but can you even include performance bonuses in his contract? I know you can with ELCs and FA signings, as well as +35 contracts, but I didn’t know you could do it for just normal UFA signings.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you can.
It’s more that they needed to limit the bonuses available to kids on ELC’s, because the league didn’t want Stamkos earning a $6M bonus for getting his first assist. I don’t think there’s any limit to what we can promise to MVR in bonuses, cap space excluded.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I guess you can
Mike Grier just signed a contract with Buffalo that includes a 100,000 performance bonus for playoff performance. Interesting.
I guess just not many contracts have it. In fact I’m having trouble finding a 2nd example.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Asked and Answered
What players may earn in performance bonuses?
Performance bonuses will only be permissible for the following types of players: (1) players on entry-level contracts; (2) players signing one-year contracts after returning from long-term injuries (players with 400 or more games who spent 100 or more days on injured reserve in the last year of their most recent contract); and senior veteran players who sign a one-year contract after the age of 35.
MVR total games played in the NHL: 353
Ruh roh.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Aw man,
Poor MVR just can’t catch a break that isn’t in his knees. Isn’t the NHL pension requirement 400 games as well?
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
read below. I may be wrong. Apparently this was already much-discussed and fretted about. It’s up to the lawyers now.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
See mf37's link
We think he does qualify for pension and a bonus-laden deal because the CBA appears to include time on IR for purposes of “games played”.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. I wouldn’t give him a 2nd year or anything over $1MM. We’re already spending way too much on D, we need someone other than Gunnar to be cheap.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, just throw in some unrealistic clause, like if he plays 40 games he gets $3 million.
by Robot Godzilla on May 19, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
There was a good discussion on here as to whether Van Ryn qualifies for a bonus structured contract. I think it hinges on the interpretation of games played.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Even after re-reading that, I’m not convinced he qualifies. Legal minds are going to have to decide whether or not his pension qualification for his days on the IR count towards the number of days required to get an incentive-laden contract.
I’m sure MLSE’s crack legal team has already reviewed this.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup. Bottom line: from reading the CBA it appears he’s eligible but there might be a non-public history to the clause that alters the interpretation from what’s actually written.
Bottom line: we have no freaking idea.
Speaking of things about which we have no idea, does anyone know the final cap number for the Leafs this year? All year capgeek had them over, but I’m guessing Schenn and Bozak didn’t hit their bonuses. Is this stuff ever made public? I’d be ready for a murderous rampage if we finished 29th, lost our 1st rounder AND had to use the bonus cushion so that we have less cap space next year.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
no idea
but if you do start on this murderous rampage, can I suggest you head towards Montreal?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
hrm you make a good point
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
better yet, and afiniganov contract
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’ll get a better deal or term anywhere else. In fact, I like PPP’s 750K as a starting point for contract negotiations.
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Going off of the discussion above about overpaid players
If you look at when these albatross contracts were signed; Redden, Campbell, Gomez, Drury, Phaneuf, Giguere, etc…..
They were signed during the first big wave of UFA signings after the inception of the salary cap. I feel that GMs didn’t fully grasp the salary cap and understand true value for a player and thus overpaid for them without realizing how a team needs to be structured capwise, because they didn’t have enough time to see how teams develop with a salary cap.
Now GMs understand true player value better. Take a look at Duncan Keith. He’s locked up at $5.5M a year and it a way better player than any of the guys mentioned above. Same goes for another Blackhawk in Toews. $6.3M for one of the best two-way centres in the game. I feel that the $7M+ contracts are a thing of the past unless you’re talking about a handful of guys like Crosby and Ovechkin. But even they shouldn’t be paid the $8.7M and $9.5M they are earning. That’s just ridiculous for the marginal talent increase over two guys making $4 to 5M a piece like say the duo of Getzlaf and Perry.
The smart GMs are past their learning curve and finally zeroing in on giving appropriate contracts to players.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Very true, which means you may see less and less impact players getting UFA status. If they’re worth it, the GM will lock them up, if they are expendable but will command a big salary, they won’t.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
The salary cap environment is all about drafting well, developing top tier home grown talent, and locking them up on the cheap lock term. Then using UFAs to round out your team.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Burke gave $8.5MM to Komi and Beauchemin just last year. Not Redden-esque but not very savvy either.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
True
But that’s $8.5M spread out amongst two players. With Redden at $6.5M a year, add in a $2M UFA defenseman like Trevor Daley or Greg Zanon.
If it were Redden + Zanon vs Komisarek + Beauchemin, I’d take Komi and Beauch every time.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
That’s like one of those “what/who would you rather…” games. Both are entirely unappealing.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Towes, Keith, etc. weren’t UFAs so their compensation is going to be lower than those who can sell their services on the open market to the highest bidder.
UFAs are still signing for huge premiums well after the lockout:
2009: Gaborik at $7.5M, Bouwmeester at $6.8
2008: Huet at $5.25, Campbell at $7.1M, Huselius $5M, Redden $6M etc.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
5M for Huselius makes me laugh.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Huet at $5.25M lol
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
3.5 for finger lol……. aw hamburgers….
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
See note about smart GMs. Stupid GMs still overpay for talent because they were poor at developing it in house to begin with.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
But these bad deals were signed by many GMs over many UFA seasons.
I don’t think GMs have gotten smarter at all.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
See: Sutter, Darryl.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
oh i saw it. its totally correct.
I hope burke gets us to the point where we arent having to go shopping every summer to try and fill holes because we dont have any developed talent in the system. It looks like we are heading that way. Fletcher and Burke had to dip into UFAs because they knew that they didnt have viable options on the farm if they were to compete for a playoff spot
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Aw nuts. I mean… aw nuts.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I love that as bad as Phaneuf’s contract looks, J-Bo’s is clearly worse. Using GVT as a rough and ready measure, he’s been a top 150 player in the NHL exactly once, when he was 91st. Phaneuf’s 1st 3 years were 59, 111, 33.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Bouwmeester is all I will ever say to Flames fans when they laugh at me for some horrible turn over that Dion’s made.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
He had a spectacular year this year and still didn’t get them into the playoffs.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks a lot OLLI
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
come home marian we miss you
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel that the $7M+ contracts are a thing of the past unless you’re talking about a handful of guys like Crosby and Ovechkin
Kovalchuk won’t be happy to hear that, after turning down that rediculous package by ATL.
It was probably good for ATL in the long run that he didn’t accept it.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Gaborik got $7.5M last year, I’m sure Kovalchuk will cross the $7M threshold in July. Marleau might too.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Wow i didn’t even realize Gaborik made 7.5M/year.
That makes the signing by NYR even more bold than I thought for Glassback Gaborik.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
bold?
they unloaded Gomez’ $7.5 mill contract on one day just to sign Gaborik to the same dollar contract the following day.
Gaborik may have been great for them this year, but I still think it was dumb to pay him that much.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean “bold” in the sense that it was high risk/reward.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
ah
for some reason, I thought bold had a positive connotation.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah, same as I would say the Kessel deal was “bold”.
That doesn’t necessarily mean it was good (or bad), but it’s high risk/reward.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Meaning “ballsy”. Especially in the context of the Kessel deal.
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Glassback Gaborik.
That’s Lord Groindemort to you, bub.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And as for willingness to pay, remember Waddell offered $10MM long term.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I know. He bent over backwards and almost handicapped his team for the next decade.
Trading him was the right thing to do. People complain he didn’t get enough, but look at the situation he was in. He was lucky to escape with the package he got.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Better to be lucky than good. Kovalchuk saying “yes” would have been the death knell for them, much like Vinny’s deal in Tampa.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s too bad because now they lack a “superstar” which can be bad news for southern markets.
As if they didn’t have enough trouble drawing a crowd already.
Time for Balsillie to try again…
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think winning matters more than having a star. See e.g. Nashville, Phoenix.
by The '67 Sound on May 19, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s for this reason that I always think of Nashville as communist.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I knew there was a reason I liked Nashville.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus
Barry Trotz totally looks like a member of the Politburo.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 19, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Blue collar hockey!
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Too bad Tallon fucked up those RFA contracts.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 19, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yeah
and awesome pic to go with the post.
And another Kudos for taking on a subject I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot poll.
BS
Thanks.
I was just sick to puking with talking about other teams in the playoffs and bandwagoning fans. I was hankering for some Leaf debate.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
excellent job, this was sorely needed
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I can feel the pent-up need to talk about Leafs boiling to the surface.
Stupid off-season.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
What, you were sick of hearing about which shitty free agent we should sign or how we’re going to trade Tomas Kaberle for the 85 Oilers?
Resident Capologist
SO SICK OF KABERLE
/spits
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Appreciate it.
If I still can’t get my fill of Vitamin TML, I may write more often this summer.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
it was really nice to actually read about/talk about the leafs today….. i can only take so much habs/flyers/hawks crap
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Heheheh
It’s funny how many of us are suddenly on the same page about this. There must be a lot of pent-up anxiety going into the draft and UFA season that we haven’t been dealing with. Obviously, there isn’t much new stuff to discuss, but I think a lot of us just needed to talk.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Hear, hear!!!
Pension Plan Puppets -A Toronto Maple Leafs Blog: Pineapple Free Thanks to Mikhail Grabovski
by Sergei Puckizin on May 19, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Pythagorean Talk
After the 1/31 trade explosion the Leafs finished the season with a 0.913 save percentage on the dot.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Yeah. From the day of the trade on.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
interesting. the Leafs picked up 29 of a possible 52 points during that stretch. Extrapolated out over the entire season, they would have finished with 90ish points.
PLAYOFFS!!!1
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
29 points in 52 games works out to 91.46 points over 82 games.
My original pythagorean post predicted 92 points with a .913 SV%, call it rounding errors. :)
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
do you buy the whole “garbage time” arguement? There are some out there (call them crazy) who beleive the leafs played better because the pressure to make the playoffs was off
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
good
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
a few of the players might have mailed it in (Kaberle), but the kids were playing for spots or just werent the type to slack
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
kabba looked really disinterested…. which was disapointing. You would think all that youthful enthusiasm would have rubbed off on him
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
culture of entitlement, the last piece remains
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The last 3 seasons, maybe.
This season? No. There’s been way too much turnover to insinuate a correlation, unless you want to lay it all at the feet of Kaberle.
Resident Capologist
yea, thats the way i felt as well. Plus, i have a hard time beleiving that other teams are trying to get as many points from the leafs as possible as they were desperatley trying to secure playoff spots themselves.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
colour me surprised
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Final 26 games for Kaberle
2G 4A 6Pts
Over 82 games that’s a 6G 13A 19Pt season.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I was being sarcastic.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
ouch…
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not that I’m biased against Kaberle. It’s that he sucks.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
At least he was super defensively reliable in those last 26 games, Chemmy.
(Don’t go look up stats, I’m being sarcastic)
Not that it’s a great stat but he was a -6, (-19 over a whole season) while the team was playing good hockey.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
is kaberle usually a + player?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Going back to the lockout:
09-10: -16
08-09: -8
07-08: -8
06-07: +3
05-06: -1
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
not really surprised i guess.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Also of note, his point totals those years:
49
31
53
58
67
So just think about how many goals against he was on the ice for to cancel those points out.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Does he play on the powerplay?
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Most definitely.
Lots of points on the PP that don’t go towards his +/-
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If you look at the stats pages for defensemen with like point totals, the only other names that pop up with negative +/- s are Sergei Gonchar, Bryan McCabe, Visnovsky, and Streit.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
one of those goals was from behind the red line in the corner as well…. got lucky as hell…
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
They all count.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
touche….
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
We’ll find out. We’ll see how this group responds out of the gate this year.
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Would be nice to see them carry the pace from the end of last year and get to 92 points.
Then we can through the whole garbage time theory to rest
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Leafs play at that pace 8th place in the East will be 92 points and we’ll lose a tiebreaker because some time in January we got a stick measurement penalty and got scored on as time expired.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Boyd Devereaux hattrick.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
No, that can only happen when we stand to fall four places in the standings to draft an amazing player.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
/facepalm
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
well we don’t have that pick so some journeyman on the other team will score a hat trick to drop the leafs 3 spots
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Is this the other Chemmy theory: Everything that can go wrong with the Leafs will go wrong?
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If so, can we bet $100 to counteract this from happening?
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
its more fact than theory
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Murphy doesn’t speak to the Leafs specifically.
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Regular Murphy’s Law? No.
Larry Murphy’s Law? Yes.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Come on.
Everyone knows the only acceptable time to call for a stick measurement is in November.
Resident Capologist
and whhhyyyyyyyyyyyy might that be?
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 19, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
….im waiting for the punch line, but im pretty sure that results in a ban now…
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Too bad those are only 90ish hypothetical points.
I prefer real ones.
Let’s go for 90ish+ real points next year, mmkay Leafs?
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Important fact
League overall save percentage this year was 0.909%
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Duly noted.
But remember Cujo’s and Eddie’s best days in Toronto?
That feels like home
BS
by MapleLeafMole on May 19, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
toskala brought that down at least a couple percentage points
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 19, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
doing this GVT chart
and Phaneuf’s contract is sure structured weirdly.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 4:58 PM EDT reply actions
so’s his face, what’s your point?
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sorry you don’t like his face.
Elisha Cuthbert disagrees.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if it is his face she really likes.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 19, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
2008-2009 $7,000,000
2009-2010 $6,500,000
2010-2011 $7,000,000
2011-2012 $6,500,000
2012-2013 $6,500,000
2013-2014 $5,500,000
My guess is that the first year of $7M includes a performance bonus, since they follow it up with this disclaimer:
NOTE: Signing bonuses are already included in listed NHL salary and cap hit but are separate from listed performance bonuses.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Edit:
My guess is that the first year of $7M includes a performance signing bonus
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
but then why is the third year also $7 MM
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Does anyone else’s contract go down in that span or anything?
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
on calgary, I mean.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 19, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I want to say Sutter structured it that way to make sure he doesn’t get called out by the NHL for circumventing the cap. That $7 million in the third year would save him from league disapproval. But that would mean giving Sutter actual credit, which seems inaccurate.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
it’s the only one I see where it goes up and down between years like this. Most of the contracts are sliding to keep the cap hit down.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Phaneuf’s cap hit remains the same though, regardless of the sliding actual dollars. As a long term contract that obviously keeps the cap hit the same throughout, a strict sliding scale may have been something Calgary’s management wanted to avoid for optics.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
A number of large, multi-year deals are structured this way.
I know these aren’t comparable in terms of size or ability, Kessel has one that increase to a max (when I assume the club feels the player will be at their peak and most deserving of the salary), and then wanes off towards the end.
Chris Drury and Mike Richards as well.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
sure, but those have a more rational curve to them if you know what I mean.
Seeing a contract that’s something like 3M, 4M, 5M, 3M, 2M makes more sense than 6.5M, 7M, 6.5M, 7M, 6.5M, 6.5M.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on May 19, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess that's why I assumed a signing bonus
of say, $1m. Since capgeek doesn’t separate signing bonuses from actual salary, it would look like 7m
Then his contract would look like: $6m (+$1m signing), 6.5M,7M,6.5M,6.5M,5.5M.
I guess we’ll never know for sure. But ya it certainly does look weird with the up and down of it all.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Burke's Contracts
People have said up and down this page that Gustavsson is the only good contract that Burke has signed. I would throw Phil Kessel in there as well. $5.4M dollars for the centrepeice of our offense if a great value contract. Look at the $6-$7 million Montreal forwards… overpaid!…. Lacavalier $10M… overpaid… I think $9M for Malkin is an overpayment. This list of boat-anchor forward contracts throughout the NHL is pretty large. And I think Kessel is far from one of these.
Giguere is a good contract to swallow for one year, he might provide league average goaltending and mentor the other goalies in the system.
Unfortunately you have to pay $6.5M a year for a stud defensement these days.. And Phaneuf has the potential to be that guy. He’ll be fine next season… you watch!
Contains the correct levels of Truculence....
Unfortunately you have to pay $6.5M a year for a stud defensement these days.. And Phaneuf has the potential to be that guy. He’ll be fine next season… you watch!
It’s a lot more palatable when Toronto doesn’t have three other players who are almost comparable to Phaneuf in terms of salary. Phaneuf seems like an expensive luxury for the Leafs unless one of Komisarek or Beauchemin is gone. Furthermore, Luke Schenn is another player who is supposed to be the Leafs “stud” defenceman. Already his salary is creeping up to non-bargain territory.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I always forget that Luke Schenn is still only 20 years old. Most of our “prospects” are older than him by 2 or 3 years. I think he’ll be fine. Plenty of time to move into “stud” status.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, and I’ll continue to support Schenn, but that doesn’t ignore his RFA status coming up very soon. Toronto is bloated in salary on the back end, and despite Schenn’s handsome potential, doesn’t alleviate that problem.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
But with Giguere’s contract coming off the books next year, that will free up all the space necessary to resign Schenn.
Contains the correct levels of Truculence....
But that still means more money tied to defencemen. Toronto already has the highest total salary committed to d-men in the NHL.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Nope. Schenn is RFA next summer, Beauch and Finger are locked until 2012.
Schenn already has a $3M cap hit due to his ELC bonuses. If he performs approximately how he did post-BB day, do we really think he’ll command any more than $3M/year next summer? I don’t see how.
Hopefully he has a breakout season though, as most RFAs tend to do.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 20, 2010 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t call Kessel “value” at 5.4m. I’d argue if he puts up 30+ goals every year then he’s fair value in terms of point production… but he started to become more than just a 1 way sniper as the year progressed. That is still his strong suit, but you could see the chemistry he was working with Bozak and Kulemin he set up some nice plays too. Getting off-topic though.
Burke’s stamp on this team so far has come from his high-profile trades and his ability to lure free agents to Toronto. Other than Gus, he hasn’t pulled off any arguable “value” contracts. Komi, Beauch are going to have to do a lot lot more next year to live up to their pay grade.
Kulemin’s contract will be an interesting benchmark on his salary negotiation prowess. Man I’m glad Nonis stuck around for at least another 2 seasons.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 19, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You think $9 mill
is an overpayment for a Conn Smythe and Calder trophy winning player who has averaged 1.24 ppg over his career in the regular season and 1.18 ppg in the post season, has broken the 100 point plateau twice in 4 seasons, and led the NHL in scoring a year ago? He was an NHL 1st team all star in 2008.
Seriously… we’re talking about one of the top 3 forwards offensively in the NHL when he’s healthy, and you think he’s overpaid at $9 mill when there are only 3 other skaters making that much in a season? Lecavalier is the only one of the 4 that hasn’t won an Art Ross Trophy… and I think you know who the other two are.
As for overpaid… Luongo fits the bill.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 19, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
But for Malkin, you’re comparing him to UFAs, which you can’t do. They aren’t comparable in terms of bargaining position. And I’d take Malkin at $8.7 over Kessel at $5.4. Malkin is a generational talent. Don’t get hung up on one bad playoffs.
A better comparison is Kane/Toews. And I’d take them (Toews in particular) at $6.3 over Kessel at $5.4.
I’m not saying Kessel’s is a bad contract, but it’s not a bargain for a guy coming off his ELC.
by The '67 Sound on May 20, 2010 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Wasn’t he horrible in the playoffs two years ago though? Not challenging your point, I just thought it was more like “one good playoffs” than one bad.
Not unless 22 points in 20 games is “horrible”.
I mean even this year he’s getting drawn and quartered for 11 points in 13 games. Disappointing but not terrible.
by The '67 Sound on May 20, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
Some pretty intense discussion here.
I would say that Jeff Finger’s contract is the only really bad contract on the books right now, but there are a couple which could potentially be boat anchors weighing the team down. Phaneuf is obviously the biggest risk of that bunch, with Komi and Beauch to some degree carrying risks as well. I don’t really count GIguere too much because it’s up after next season and I don’t anticipate him staying with the Leafs beyond that. Kind of worrying that so much cap space is tied up on defence but we’ll see how it progresses. We’d love Phaneuf to play up to the level of his contract (obviously)… I hope that at worst he’s just overpaid instead of grossly overpaid.
As for the Toskala debate above, given what we’ve seen from Burke’s management decisions and philosophy I can understand why he didn’t dump a fringe Marlie player on contract to pick up another goalie so he could waive Toskala. I’m sure he’d think it would go against his principles to punish someone else unfairly because of Toskala’s failings. Whether it was a good or bad decision is another question that I’m sure will have opinions equally divided as everything else associated with how the situation was handled. Given how the season was already flushed down the toilet at that time, I think most of us are happy with the outcome even if the decision itself may not have been the best one. No Toskala and Blake more than offsets the big cap hit we have to take this year for Giguere, in my opinion.
Anyway, what’s done is done. I’d argue that, if Burke has mishandled the goalie situation in his time here so far, that at least it appears he is learning from his mistakes by signing Gustavsson, Rynnas and so on, and by placing faith in Allaire to help develop them. In any case I’d prefer to focus on what is to come instead of rehashing those old debates any more… looking ahead, to me, is much more interesting and (hopefully?) less divisive.
leaf fan stuck in ottawa, a localized black hole that will suck everything in that area to oblivion.
what’s done is done
That’s exactly how I feel about the whole Toskala thing. I’m just trying to move on after a bad breakup, and it’s like my therapist is making me re-examine every one of the fights I had with an ex haha.
I hope that at worst he’s just overpaid instead of grossly overpaid.
We can all hope this is the case.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on May 20, 2010 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions

by 
































