Stat Nerdery
Last week our attention was piqued by the story coming out of Chicago that Marian Hossa and his agent, Rich Winter, had selected Chicago on the basis of a regression algorithm that had allowed them to winnow down the respective teams in the NHL that would attain 100 points in the regular season to a fairly high degree of accuracy.
This should not shock anyone that's a regular around these parts, as obviously the works of Gabriel Desjardins, Tom Awad, Vic Ferrari, and Alan Ryder are percolating through the NHL ranks these days. Statistical analysis is making inroads into the game, and perhaps at the upcoming international hockey summit, greater efforts will be made to track various statistical information centrally in order to better develop and identify key aspects of the game.
The interest in these areas should increase drastically as it becomes more evident that the ability of teams, with easily available and cheap video and computer technology, to analyze every minute detail of their game play for the foreseeable future brings the ideas of Roger Neilson into the 21st century.
By way of example, in recent years we've heard tell of Ron Wilson, Rob Zettler, and Tim Hunter using video analysis on laptops behind the bench for immediate feedback to players. The Buffalo Sabres disposed of most of their scouting staff a couple of years ago and have shifted to a predominantly video scouting system.
Articles regularly crop up in media publications debating the value of statistical analyses vs. old school scouting methods, and frankly most of them are asking the wrong questions. In a fashion similar to entrenched media vs. new media debates, the question should not be why one format of work is superior to the other, but how to integrate and allow the two to coexist optimally.
Stats like CORSI numbers (invented by Buffalo goaltending coach Jim Corsi), Zone Starts and Finishes, On Ice/Off Ice +/- ratings, team or opponent quality metrics, shot quality neutral save percentages, even strength save percentages, and GVT ratings all have their value in assessing the value of individual players.
Slowly hockey appears to be modernizing it's approach to player analysis, and eventually such statistical methods will tweak what people value in a player. The arguments around the distinctions between NHL quality goaltenders have been raging for years, and they'll likely continue to. Who knows how valuable a power forward is in comparison to a stud blue liner? Heck what is a power forward these days? These are all debates that occur with regularity and interest many of us.
The applications of such methods of analysis are also far reaching in a cap controlled world. If you can attach dollar and cents value to a players output, in terms of value to a team, then structuring a roster becomes much more of a turn-key process.
I'm curious about what other people perceive as the ideal team structure at this point. How do you think a team needs to be built in the cap era for consistent long term competitiveness? Recently it seems that teams that overload on young talent can get a Stanley Cup, but maintaining that for more than 1 year is a huge challenge.
Detroit has been the most consistent for years, and they seem to do well with cheap goaltending, amazingly talented top 4 forwards and top 3 defense, and then a solid mix of veterans and kids who are playing the supporting role.
If the Leafs want to follow the winning models of recent years I would argue they require the following:
1. Reliable, though not stellar goalkeeping. With Giguere, Gustavsson, Rynnas, Reimer - we should be ok here in the short and probably long term.
2. At least two all-star caliber forwards, 30+ goals, 80+ points. We'll call them forwards A and B and Phil Kessel should eventually qualify as A, so they need one more bonafide star for role B. Nazem Kadri? Tyler Bozak? Mikhail Stefanovich? Currently the Leafs have one of these but not two.
3. Two other forwards that are capable of scoring 20 to 25 goals in a season (forwards C and D). One should be a power forward with size and decent hands who is hard to move in front of the net (C), while the other needs to be a relatively slick skill type with outside speed (D). Top 6 forward C might be Kulemin, Stålberg, Hayes, Hanson, or Caputi, while forward D might be Grabovski, Bozak, DiDomenico, or D'Amigo. This is another situation where the Leafs do not currently have ANYONE to fill the role short term. This season may show someone taking strides in that role.
4. The rest of the forward lines (all 8 of the players) need to be reliable defensively, and capable of playing with a physical edge. Speed is an asset, and an ability to play physically but cleanly is important. I'm thinking of players like Scott Nichol and Torrey Mitchell in San Jose, or Darren Helm in Detroit. They only need to combine for 35 goals or so, but if they get more, the team's scoring will be more balanced and dangerous. This is where the younger players learn to play solid D while not worrying about offensive output. It's where Kulemin occasionally found himself for the past two seasons, and where Stålberg and Hanson resided for their visits last year. This is also where the veterans who are responsible defensively but don't put up stats fit in. Wayne Primeau and the like.
5. Top 2 D men that are offensively skilled but play solid positional D. Dion Phaneuf and Tomas Kaberle are the closest thing the Leafs have to that at this moment. Unfortunately, Kaberle is too soft defensively, while Phaneuf's positioning isn't always that great as he looks for huge hits far too often. Both players are also very predictable from an offensive perspective. This is where Keith and Campbell, or Boyle and Blake, or Pronger and Timmonen, or Lidstrom and Rafalski, Weber and Suter, or Doughty and Johnson will all fit in. The Leafs may not have this problem solved, which is a bit worrisome considering they spend more on their team's D than any club in the NHL.
6. Two second pairing D that are good in their own end, and chip in 15 to 20 points . The Leafs are actually set long term in this role with Schenn and Gunnarsson at this point. As far as I can tell, the two youngsters make very solid 3rd and 4th D men in the long term. Beauchemin is in this role currently, and he's decent at it, but he's a veteran and he'll be less important in 2 or 3 years when the team is more competitive. The likes of Juraj Mikus and Korbinian Holzer also likely fill this role for the Leafs longer term. Niklas Kronwall, Marc Edouard Vlasic, Matt Carle, Braydon Coburn, Brent Seabrook, Chris Phillips, Mattias Ohlund are all in this second tier.
7. Two imposing, physical shut down D men. Think along the lines of Hal Gill, Brooks Orpik, Rob Scuderi, Doug Murray, Anton Volchenkov etc. For the Leafs this would be Mike Komisarek, and eventually Keith Aulie will probably fit this role also. So again the Leafs aren't that poorly off in this set up, but they need some reinforcement longer term from a depth perspective. The next closest thing the Leafs have to an option in this role is Phil Oreskovic.
So realistically the Leafs need some more pop in their guns up front, and that may well come in time as players develop. That being said, I think Burke and Wilson are well on their way to restructuring the Leafs into a winning organization.
Let me know your thoughts.
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I believe video scouting is important, but you still need people who know hockey and understand the subtleties of what makes a hockey player ‘good.’
Also, no amount of video scouting will give you the advantage of seeing how these players act after the game, in interviews, with teammates etc. You can’t generally tell how well someone will fit on your team unless you talk with them or those close to them. Maybe the guy can play, but is locker room cancer… maybe he plays hard on the ice but slacks off in practice/training.
A good mix of ‘traditional’ scouting and advanced stats and video scouting should be complimentary in approach.
ie: You see what you perceive as a ‘bad habit’ cropping up in a prospect’s play. You question it to the scout in charge of watching this kid and he does some investigation. Scout comes back that the kid is playing hurt and that’s why his play has changed.
You need to strike a balance between what the video and stats tell you and what first hand information can provide.
As for the Leafs team, they just have too much invested in the blue line (as far as current NHL contracts go) and that might hinder them from improving their forward ranks. There is only so much you can expect out of your young players and prospects. Unfortunately, I think we are pretty much forced to go with what we have up front unless Burke can move some defense for forwards – Kaberle? -
As has been restated repeatedly, the UFA market sucks balls this year, not much chance of getting anything worth while that way.
Good post.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 30, 2010 8:27 PM EDT reply actions
Agree with you on player evaluation. A little story, if I may:
A good friend of mine is the niece of Dallas Eakins. Sadly, she has next to no interest in hockey, and so far, she hasn’t had any great inside info to give me. At one point, however, Eakins hired her to help him do some typing and organizing of his knowledge of players’ personal lives. Basically, together, they created a database of players’ personal info. She told me that coke addictions were rampant, that some players had addictions to gambling, marital problems that interfered with their hockey playing, and any number of other crazy problems. Eakins wanted to make sure that he never forgot who did what, even when it came to personal lives, because it reflected so directly on the influence the player would have on the ice and in the dressing room. That’s the kind of scouting that no statistical analysis is going to change. Sadly, since she has next to no knowledge of the game or any of the players, she couldn’t tell me a single name – not that she wasn’t sworn to secrecy anyway.
On an different note, I’ve read a few articles recently that stressed the importance of interviews for scouts. They interviewed the players, obviously, but they also interviewed their teachers, their family, their friends, classmates, etc.. Seems that the non-hockey side of a prospect’s life is becoming more important to scouts these days – this knowledge isn’t being replaced by better talent evaluation metrics.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Yeah
I have some knowledge of a few of the Leafs prospects from secondary sources, and generally the stuff I know worries me more than a bit. The way wealthy athletes party and the substances they put into their bodies doesn’t vary much from sport to sport (certainly not as much as Don Cherry or others would like to think).
Suffice it to say, I agree that scouting doesn’t tell the whole story about what’s going on off the ice, but I do think it’s an important and exceedingly relevant piece of the puzzle.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 30, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I wonder how many GM’s continue not to use these stats, though. An article surfaced not too long ago about Burke subscribing to this kind of statistical data already, so we know for a fact that The Leafs use it, and probably have a lot of info we don’t know about. Can so many other teams really be in the dark?
This is puuure speculation, but I wonder if the likes of the Sutter brothers out in Calgary are the types of “old school hockey” guys that would refuse to employ this kind of analysis.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Nice post. Great realistic summary of where we stand. Still a ways to go in terms of the rebuild.
Nice to see Burke is doing what he said he was going to do though, build from the net out. As you stated, we are likely (read: Hopefully) set up for average goaltending in the short-to-medium term. We need a hell of an improvement from last season from our D-core though. Let’s hope Komi can stay healthy, Kab gets moved for ANYTHING, and we see a nice progression in Schenn, Gunnar, etc.
The big glaring hole is clearly our top-end forward core, but I have faith that will eventually be filled, if not this off-season than through trade or next offseason.
Leafs Nation: A drinking team with a hockey problem.
After reading...
Shouldnt Schenn be included in point number 7? I think he can turn out to be a great shutdown defenceman
as I dont see schenn contributing with scoring
by hockeyphreak on May 30, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Schenn may develop into more of a shut down guy
But he put up 17 points in his 2nd year in the NHL. So far his trajectory is similar to that of Marc Staal of the NY Rangers, who has gone from 10 to 15 to 27 points in his first 3 NHL seasons.
Also I’d point out that Schenn is only 20 years of age, and Staal didn’t play his first NHL season until he was 21. Schenn has offensive upside. He needs to keep working on his shot, but his ability to skate with the puck is actually quite decent, and he’s very good with his breakout passes.
I think eventually he could fall in the 25-30 point range consistently if his shot from the point improves.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 30, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Another similar player
from the points and play perspective might be Brent Burns from Minnesota. He went from 6 points as an 18 year old prior to the lockout, to 16 points as a 20 year old in the first year back. He then improved to 25 and 43 points in his 3rd and 4th years respectively. Injuries have shortened his seasons the past two years, but he’s still quite productive offensively.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 30, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
<3 Brent Burns
but uh, if I were you guys I’d keep schenn away from concussions
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on May 31, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Schenn is unconcussable
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 31, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
He may develop into a shutdown guy, but I disagree on two points:
1. His breakout passes were WAY too inconsistent this past season. Sure, he’s only 20, and there is plenty of time for improvement – we did see a lot of towards the end of the year. It’s not to say that I don’t think he’ll eventually be capable of making nice breakout passes, but to say that he is this way now seems like a bit of a stretch. In fact, I think his breakout passes and clearing attempts were two of his weakest points, earlier in the year. We’ll see what happens.
2. He is slow. He got beat all over the place when it came to foot races last season, and I don’t see that changing drastically. His positioning got better towards the end of the season, and this helped cut down on the number of times he got beat.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
In regards to...
1. I would say that his breakout passes were not entirely inconsistent because of his efforts. A lot of that also had to do with forward positioning, and players not being where they were supposed to be. Either way, as you said, he’s only 20, and he’ll improve with time. Some of it is confidence, and some of it is practice. He’ll keep getting better.
2. He isn’t horribly slow. He’s a large man, and he moves like one. I would never describe him as fast, but that doesn’t prevent D men from being capable at both ends of the ice. As you state, his positioning can (and seems like it will) improve. When that happens, the foot speed thing will be less of a problem.
Either way, I am saying he looks like he could develop into a 20-25 point D man which would make him a solid 2nd pairing option. That isn’t a huge over-reach on my part I don’t think. I didn’t say Norris candidate or anything.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 30, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I don't disagree with your overall assessment.
A 20 – 25 point season is completely within his reach, especially if Kaberle gets moved, freeing up some ice time.
Now that I think about it though, if Komisarek can stay healthy, I wonder if his ice time goes up at all?
Either way, if Schenn gets top-4 minutes, he’ll break 20 points eventually.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Ok then
and yeah the Komisarek thing makes me wonder. I really don’t mind him playing top minutes with a player like Kaberle, but throwing him out there with the likes of Phaneuf wouldn’t be the best plan.
I think a Gunnarsson Komisarek pairing might be ideal actually.
Next season I’d play the following duos:
Phaneuf-Beauchemin
Komisarek-Gunnarsson
Schenn-Finger
with Komi and Schenn seeing extra time on the PK, while Gunnarsson and Finger/Schenn seeing time on the PP unit.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 30, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously I'm trading Kaberle
for a useful forward or a top draft pick. I think at this point I’d prefer a 1st and a 2nd to any roster players.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 30, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. And I don't want to kick-start a whole new Kaberle trade debate here, but
We’re unlikely to get a really good top-six forward for Kabby, and the roster player we would get in a pick + prospect deal would be marginal at best. Even Campbell only brought in a late 1st and Steve Bernier. to be fair, I think Bernier was projected to be a bigger offensive contributor at the time of the trade than he is now, but still.
In any event, I don’t think that it’s crazy to count Kaberle out of the defense corps for next year.
You’d keep Finger around, though?
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I only pencil him in
because he’s fine as a 6th D man, and there’s no way any other teams take him off our hands at the price he sits at right now.
I also see no value to burying him in the AHL. He’s better as a number 6 than anyone we’ve got on the farm right now.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 31, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Finger to the minors reeks of Burke blustering.
To his credit, he only said that he’d bury Finger if that made it possible to acquire elite talent. While I suppose we can’t rule anything out (if only because of how shocking the Phaneuf / Giguere trades were), it seems unlikely that he can put himself in a position to do that, anyway.
From that perspective, it seems most likely that Finger starts the year in blue and white.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I should correct myself.
Burke never explicitly said that he’d send Finger to the minors, he said ‘any player’.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I’m curious about what other people perceive as the ideal team structure at this point. How do you think a team needs to be built in the cap era for consistent long term competitiveness? Recently it seems that teams that overload on young talent can get a Stanley Cup, but maintaining that for more than 1 year is a huge challenge.
I would say there is no ideal.
Sometimes youth wins the day, sometimes speed wins the day, Other days, experience, skill, heart, (etc) are given credit for the victory. Each team has to find a model that works for them, and prey to the gods that it works.
The value in advanced stats may just as well be in determining other teams venerabilities . Just as much as you can use this analysis to say “these teams that are winning are really young; we should get younger” you could say “these teams that are winning are really young; we could use experience to our advantage”
I guess my point is this, we shouldn’t need to emulate teams in order to beat them.
by the way, nice article. I find it interesting to see how players might fit into roles, with their objective clearly laid out.
by A Lindros Jaw on May 30, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
By the way.
I’m gonna rec this post, because at this time of year, it’s tough to find interesting, new Leaf-related topics to really sink your teeth into. Right on.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
My only major disagreement would be with your structuring of the defence. With the list of “bottom 6” guys you provided, it seems you are following the Burke model more than anything else, and Burke, to me, has vastly overpaid for his bottom pair.
I think the more successful model in the post-cap world has always been the one exemplified this year by Chicago and Philly: awesome top 4, forgettable bottom 2. The bottom pair plays a very sheltered 10MPG, and you pay them peanuts (Sopel breaks that rule, but Chicago would dearly love to be rid of him). Detroit is the same: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart & Kronwall get the minutes and the money.
The problem with the Leafs’ D as currently structured is their talent is too spread out, which means they’re paying guys too much for the minutes they’ll be playing. Phaneuf, Komi, Beauch, Gunnar, Schenn and Kaberle are all “top 4” calibre in terms of talent, and all but Gunnar are making “top 4” dollars (with Finger getting the money Gunnar deserves, so we have 6 guys making “top 4” dollars). Especially when Gunnar and Schenn get their next deals, two of the others need to be gone. One will likely be Kaberle. A big question for 2011-12, for me, is who will be the other: Komi or Beauch?
Really? I mean, of course CHI and PHI come to mind, and ANA in 2007 probably, but that’s only becasue their top-4s are so strong. For most teams that’s not feasible, and even Detroit according to NHL.com spread it around a bit (QualComp doesn’t give a clear picture). I think more along the lines of 6D at ES and probably 4 D on the PK and 2-3 on the PP, leaving really 5 guys with good TOI and one guy with not that much is what we’re looking for.
It definitely helps to have those top-pairing D, which the Leafs don’t seem to have (any, really, though Phaneuf and Kaberle are debatable I suppose).
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 31, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I should have been more clear—I’m OK having 5 guys with good TOI as long as you’re only paying 4 of them > $2MM. The Leafs are currently paying Top 4 dollars to 6. That’s cap suicide.
Whether or not Phaneuf and Schenn turn into Top 2 guys (or for Dion, turns back into a Top 2 guy) will be a major determinant of our future success. We don’t lack for Top 4 guys.
Caps are a good example of what I’m talking about. Next year you’ll only have to be paying good money to Green, Poti and presumably Schultz, leaving room to sign someone like Volchenkov or Hamhuis, and with the kids filling out the D.
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I also think Detroit supports my model. The Top 4 all got over 20 MPG, the bottom pair were around 15MPG or less. The qualcomp for those outside the top 4 was dramatically lower than the top 4. In the playoffs the TOI is even more obvious, with Ericsson/Lilja getting 14 and 11 MPG, respectively. So maybe not 10 MPG but drastically less than the Top 4.
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
The issue here is
the Leafs 6th D man is making way too much. Jeff Finger should not be making $3.5 million a year.
If he was making $600 K then nobody would be complaining about the Leafs D.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 31, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree
The Leafs are committed $24MM on D against the cap for next year even WITHOUT Finger. Burke gets some great grades elsewhere, but his cap management on the D is a D+ (even accepting Finger wasn’t his fault).
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think taking on Phaneuf’s value though was kind of a deal he couldn’t pass up, he could like like a genius in a few years for it (some people think he already does).
No way he signs Komi AND Beach if he already has Phaneuf, or knows he will be getting him, its bad cap management but getting Dion seems like it is for a better big picture thing.
I like the guts the Phaneuf deal showed, but I still think the Komi/Beauch signings were terribly misguided even if we’d never been able to trade for Phaneuf. Overpay for one declining, overhyped veteran D-man, perhaps; but two?
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Komi is only 28 don’t think it’s fair to say he’s declining. Overhyped or overpaid is debatable, but I think he’s young enough (relatively speaking) to be considering at his prime.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on May 31, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right in terms of a typical age curve but by any measure Komi’s best year was 06-07 and he’s been progressively worse each year. I really worry about that shoulder…
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Similar surgery to Kessel’s, I believe… he seemed to do OK.
Sure Kessel isn’t physical like Komi needs to be, but let’s reserve judgment until after we see Komi play a for a month or so.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 31, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
if Kessel’s shoulder can hold up to the wicked crazy snap from his shot I’m confident Komi will be good with his physicality…if it is allowed to heal properly
My Fan Base Can Beat Up Your Fan Base
by JaredFromLondon on May 31, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Having the surgery at 21 years of age and 28 years are two very different things.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
I think we will be fine in the end though. Beauchemin and Finger have 2 more years left on their contracts. Tough to deal with Finger for two more, at that point I’m assuming Kaberle is gone and we still have Phaneuf and Komi. Schenn and Gunnarsson will round out the top 4 and we have a decent amount of D prospects to become 5-6 (Aulie, Blacker etc.) Hopefully the amount we spend on D is much more manageable and then we can select from the wide variety of talented forwards becoming UFAs in 2012 (when I hope we are contenders) such as Chris Drury, Jason Blake, Nik Hagman. The last three names mentioned are a joke, just to be clear
by ShahofToronto on May 31, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, by 12/13 things look much better (though paying a 3rd pair guy $4.5MM will hurt), but it sucks to have our blueline in cap hell for two more years.
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The 2012 UFA class doesn’t seem impressive at all. If we are going to target top end talent forwards it will have to be in 2011. So the timing of Finger/Beauch contracts aren’t great. Hopefully something works out.
by ShahofToronto on May 31, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d never looked at 2012. Good God what a dismal list! Worse than this year.
I read/saw/heard something recently speculating that UFAs, even Canadian ones, are preferring US destinations because of weather, taxes, anonymity, etc. My reaction: I hope it’s true! UFA market is a fool’s game 75% of the time. Build through the draft and trades, BB.
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, alright. So then even by your model CHI and PHI are kind of extreme? I agree completely with that.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 31, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, in the regular season few play their 3rd pair only 10 mpg. That’s an exaggeration. But I am a firm believer in filling out your bottom 6/3rd pair very cheap so you can spend the money on the difference makers who play big minutes.
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
amen
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on May 31, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
They should be competent though. Just looking at Game 2, Kraijcek and Parent, since CHI has last change, have been victimized with zone pressure each time they step on the ice since CHI gets Toews or Hossa’s line plus their own weak, but better than PHI’s, 3rd pair.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
(note name change)
by red army line on May 31, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd disagree
about Chicago… they currently have Kim Johnsson, Nick Boynton, and Brent Sopel making over $1.5 million. Johnsson is making $4.5 mill, Sopel is making $2.333 mill and Boynton is making $1.5 million.
When you add in Campbell’s $7,142,875, Keith’s $5,538,462, and Seabrook’s $3.5 million you get 6 guys making top 4 money really. Hjalmarsson’s $600,000, Fraser’s $700,000 and Hendry’s $600,000 will all go up as they’re RFA’s after this year.
I really don’t think Chicago is an example of solid cap management… I’m just saying how the players need to be organized, not the cap hit. You’re right that the Leafs have too much money tied up in their D, but really, if Kaberle is gone – which I anticipate, it becomes more manageable.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 31, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Johnsson was a deadine acquisition so doesn’t really count. Boynton is paid bottom 6 money. Sopel I mentioned as the outlier, but basically he’s getting the money Hammar deserves. The Hawks are obviously a cap management disaster but even with the Campbell contract their D is obviously vastly better—and significantly cheaper next year, even after Keith gets his raise—than ours. So yeah, I’d try to model them on that issue (but for the Campbell contract).
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Let Us Not Forget
That at the beginning of the year the Blackhawks still had Cam Barker who they had just re-signed to a $3,083,333 deal. They had to deal him to Minnesota to clear cap space for NEXT season, and they’re going to have to do more of the same otherwise they’re screwed.
If you add Barker to the mix (which is why I think it’s absurd that you’re excluding Johnsson since he IS on their payroll whether or not he’s actually playing in the playoffs – it’s sort of like pretending they don’t have to pay Cristobal Huet $5 million to be their back up), then you end up with a cap hit of $21,598,003 for their top 5 D. If you put Johnsson back in it’s up to $23,314,670 which is pretty damn expensive… but he’s off the books next year so that’s irrelevant I suppose.
My point is, they got to where they were going into this year with almost $21.6 million on the books for their top 5 D going into next year.
The Leafs are entering next year with $22,025,000 spent on their top 5 D if Kaberle is one of the top 5. If you toss Kaberle aside, and put Finger’s contract in that slot, you end up with $21,275,000 which is actually less than Chicago was going into next season with. I realize that Finger’s contract is onerous, but he’s not one of the top 5 D, so the mistake he represents is something the team will have to deal with as a ridiculous contract for your 6th or 7th blue liner.
Yes obviously Chicago’s team D is better, but it helps when you have a lot of good top 6 forwards, and decent goaltending.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 31, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
In summary
Even Chicago couldn’t follow the Chicago model and get away with it. I freely acknowledge the Leafs are spending too much on their D, but the problem is the Finger contract. If Kaberle is gone, it won’t get significantly better, but it will be better nonetheless. Reality is, the Leafs overhaul on D is about as big over the past two years as it’s going to get. We aren’t about to see a whole load of new faces back there, so I don’t think it makes sense to concern ourselves too much with the likelihood of change on that front.
The Goalies for Toronto will be more affordable in the future, and hopefully some of the scoring talent doesn’t get too pricey… either way I think the team is improving overall.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 31, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Re. Johnsson I meant they’re only carrying about 1/6 of his contract. I know he counts.
Look, no one points to the Hawks as cap management experts. What I mean is that if you look at what they’ve put on the ice in the playoffs, that’s something to emulate, both in terms of talent and cap hit. Pay your top 4, save on your bottom 2. Seems pretty uncontroversial.
In fact, the Hawks flatter the Leafs as a comparator. Most successful teams spend much less on D. $22MM is just way too much to pay for your top 5 D. I’d bet the NHL average is around $16MM if you just looked at the 5 highest salaries.
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh
I don’t think Burke built his D with the idea that he wants to be league average.
I also don’t think it makes sense to compare the Leafs to the total NHL considering how many teams don’t even bother spending up to the salary cap. The Leafs are the Leafs and they will spend to the cap every year no matter what.
I get your point about Chicago, but the fact is, they didn’t know who their top 4 were going to be until halfway through this year when they finally made the call… and that was likely more a result of them HAVING to make a move. I don’t think it was some sort of grand master plan they thought up.
Detroit spends $21,450,000 on their top 5 D.
Philly spends $16,692,262, but Coburn is a UFA and he just finished playing for $1.3 million, he’s going to cost more next year if they want to keep him. Their top 5 will be pricier than that next year.
Boston is roughly in the same range, with the heavy lifting mainly done by Chara, Wideman, and Ference. Stuart is UFA, and they have to fill that gap.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 31, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, Burke didn’t build a league average D. He built a 29th place one. I wouldn’t mind $21MM on our Top 5 (virtually all of which was for the Top 4 in Detroit) if two of them were Lidstrom and Rafalski.
Sorry, you aren’t convincing me that we aren’t spending way too much money on D next year even with Kabs or Finger gone (and I’ll believe both are gone when I see it).
by The '67 Sound on May 31, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
First off – you can’t throw away one guys contract because they picked him up late and not mention the fact they got Phaneuf 2 weeks before the trade deadline last year. Sure, a lot will be tied up this year but you can’t say that if we had Phaneuf from the beginning of the year that our D would not have been better. Same with Komi, as the guy was playing hurt last year and the part of the year he missed gets LTIR on the cap.
Secondly, you seem to be making your argument in a vacuum – the fact that we had – by far – the leagues worst goaltending leading up to the Toskala trade really skews the ‘29th’ worst in the league stuff.
I can’t help but call bullshit on your compartmentalized arguments. I understand your points and I too am not a fan of the huge amount of cap tied up on the back end, but you are kind of pigeon-holing Burke with some of your statements – He did not build the 29th place D – that statement tries to give weight to the fact of ‘we finished 29th place so they were the 29th worst D’ which is neither correct or equitable and an oversimplification.
Also, he wasn’t the one who signed Finger or Kaberle. Although he did trade for (an over priced in my opinion) Phaneuf, he played less than 25 games for the Leafs – hardly enough to classify the acquisition as a failure.
We may never get full value on his 6.5mil contract, but if we get 5.5 value out of it i’ll be satisfied with that.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on May 31, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
If we actually
bother to calculate the Leafs dollars spent on D, I believe Phaneuf’s cap hit at 25 games for $6.5 million only comes out to $1,981,707.30. Similarly, with Komisarek on the shelf after January 2nd due to surgery, he only counted against the cap for the first 42 games of the season so his cap hit on his $4.5 million salary would only have been $2,304,878.10.
In that light, the Leafs in actuality only spent roughly $15,311,585 on their top 5 D (plus whatever they paid White, which last I checked was under $1 million last year). So yeah, they didn’t exactly get top performance because they were one of the lower spending teams on D if you actually think about it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on May 31, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions

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