2010 Free Agency: What The Leafs Need
Now, I won't say that this will cover what the Leafs will do since to call Brian Burke an enigma is an understatement. However, these are my thoughts on what they need to do come July 1st. Burke and Nonis have given a lot of hints about what they are trying to do but, as has been noted repeatedly, sometimes what Burke says needs to be taken with anywhere from a grain to a bucket of salt. The problem, of course, is that when trying to speculate on what might happen you could be chasing shadows. So guessing what they are going to do will probably end in tears. However, if it does, SkinnyFish has a great plan for that. It will both pull you out of and launch you into a huge depression. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.
At the centre of what I believe needs to be done lie my thoughts on Brian Burke's theories on building the Leafs' into a contender. One of the obvious ones is that he believes in acquiring high-end talent or potential high-end talent however he can. The move for Phil Kessel was because he identified him as an elite talent that he needed to have. He recognised that, contrary to John Ferguson Jr.'s wildest dreams, these kinds of players do not come onto the market often and the trend seems to be towards them becoming even rarer. You can play around with Cap Geek to see future UFA classes but it does not paint a pretty picture. As Mirtle's post notes, and as much as Hawerchuk argues the opposite, Ilya Kovalchuk IS the prize of free agency. He does have an above average shooting ability and if handled correctly can score a tonne of goals. Going after Kovalchuk, or other top end talent, is precisely what he did in Anaheim to win them a Cup.
The second one is that I believe that Burke has set himself a window of as little as two years to win a Stanley Cup in Toronto. When the Tampa Bay Lightning came after Dave Nonis he signed an extension that would lock him in through the 2011-2012 season. Afterwards, I think Burke might be tempted to drop the GM part of his dual role while giving Nonis the reins. If that's what he's planning he needs to get on his horse. His moves, and obviously his words, certainly indicate that he is building a team with a core that will be reaching their peaks in the next two years. In addition to Phil Kessel (22), Burke added Jonas Gustavsson (26), Dion Phaneuf (25), and Tyler Bozak (24) to a core that consisted of Luke Schenn (21). His insistence on getting roster players or more advanced prospects like Luca Caputi when he can seems to back this up.
At the end of the day, as he's said so many times, Burke will be active tomorrow. Whether he will be successful or whether he'll go after these terrible suggestions is yet to be seen but he will be on the phone (provided Chiarelli lets him go). Will it be our draft? Or will he just add some complementary (to what?) 3rd line pieces? God help us but we'll find out soon enough.
All UFAs/RFAs and contract information courtesy of Cap Geek's Toronto Maple Leafs page
Pending UFAs of note: NO ONE
The Leafs literally have zero unrestricted free agents that would be considered necessary to re-sign. Even on the "Why not add some depth?" list you'd only find: Wayne Primeau, Jamie Lundmark, and John Mitchell (he becomes a UFA tomorrow). Even those would only come at a very cheap price.
Pending RFAs of note: Nikolai Kulemin, Christian Hanson
The Nikolai Kulemin saga has dragged out as everyone bats around comparables to pencil Kulemin in somewhere along the spectrum between $1.9M to $3.5M. Burke has been clear that Kulemin's agent is asking for too much money and in turn 'someone' has leaked that the two sides are about $1M per year apart. Thankfully, it appears that we will soon have a resolution. Last night Bob McKenzie tweeted that the Leafs and Kulemin are broaching the gap and should announce a deal soon. It could even possibly be today.
As for Hanson, he's been kind of the invisible man during this entire time as the community has been fixated on Kulemin and Mitchell (God we love the Leafs). Hanson was qualified by the Maple Leafs and has no arbitration rights. Last year he made $900K and when his signing is announced I would expect him to be very close to the minimum 10% raise.
Salary cap space - $12,284,167
Thank God the NHLPA used the 5% escalator and extended the CBA. It might have given some teams a bit of a breather, although not as much as dealing with Rick Dudley could, but the extra $5M+ from not having bonuses count towards the cap is going to give Burke a lot of room to play with. Add in $7.75M for Tomas Kaberle (Sorry Eyebleaf) and Jeff Finger (Sorry Mrs. Finger) and that is $20M for Brian Burke to fill the gaps in the Leafs' lineup and get this team to it's first playoff appearance since having their financial power severely limited.
Projected budget - $59,400,000
I can't imagine supporting a team that has an internal budget far from the salary cap. Your team is basically conceding that it will not use every tool available to it in order to win.
Key needs - GOALS
Clearly, the Leafs need to both find more goals and prevent goals. The latter has been addressed. The Leafs' horrible team defence will be buoyed by a healthy Mike Komisarek (who is hopefully done trying to earn his contract all in one shift), the addition of Jean-Sebastien Giguere and Dion Phaneuf, the emergence of Carl Gunnarsson* as well as having a healthy Jonas Gustavsson. I don't see any need to add more assets to the back end.
However, the Toronto Maple Leafs need to find goal scorers. After 4 seasons of being in the top 11 in scoring the Leafs' slumped to 25th in 2.56 goals per game. They have one legitimate offensive threat in Phil Kessel and only two players in Tyler Bozak and Nazem Kadri that have a decent-to-good chance of developing into top flight offensive threats.
* PDO-related sophomore slump notwithstanding
Potential targets
The list of names that have been mentioned in terms of signings have ranged from the fanciful (Dan Hamhuis) to the absurd (Raffi Torres). However, if, after being a sideshow at the draft, Brian Burke wants to remedy his reputation his pursuit needs to being and end with Ilya Kovalchuk. The Leafs have a massive financial advantage over every team in the NHL. It is what has allowed them to pay high-end GM money to Dave Nonis to be an assistant GM or to expand their scouting network. Now it is vital that Burke use it to sign the kind of player that the Leafs do not have coming down the pike and that is rarely available.
Burke has been adamant about not getting ito a bidding war for Kovalchuk. That is understandable. There is certainly a line that cannot be crossed in terms of cap hit. However, Burke was on the Fan590 last night re-iterating that he does not believe in long-term deals or adding tails to deals to bring down the cap hit. Now that is unacceptable. Toronto's financial might allows it to hand out some ridiculous deals that could be front-loaded easily. Other teams that can not possibly use it to the same hilarious extreme as the Leafs are using it to their advantage. If Burke is dismissing this move out of hand out of some misplaced sense of honour that would be a mistake and I'd consider it negligent. Otherwise, considering his complaints, he sounds as whiny as British officers complaining that the Revolutionary Army wouldn't line up and fight them face-to-face.
There will definitely be tears shed tomorrow, whether of joy or rage is yet to be seen, but while tomorrow is supposed to be Toronto's draft don't be surprised if Burke decides to go the trade route to address gaps in the forward ranks. All we can do now is wait and see.
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If Burke is dismissing this move out of hand out of some misplaced sense of honour that would be a mistake and I’d consider it negligent. Otherwise, considering his complaints, he sounds as whiny as British officers complaining that the Revolutionary Army wouldn’t line up and fight them face-to-face.
Hear hear (not just this quote, which I loved, but the entire post)!
As is often the case (and will be explained in my marathon series of posts today): (1) I agree completely; and (2) you have said it in a much more pithy manner.
it’s simply unprofessional. in cutthroat industries you have to use every tool. He would be a tool to not use everything available in his arsenal. We need to get better and now’s not the time for misguided morals.
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
by Chuck Diesel on Jun 30, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions
“However, Burke was on the Fan590 last night re-iterating that he does not believe in long-term deals or adding tails to deals to bring down the cap hit. Now that is unacceptable. Toronto’s financial might allows it to hand out some ridiculous deals that could be front-loaded easily.”
Rick DiPietro
Gregory Campbell
Scott Gomez
Marc Savard
Those are the ones that have already gone wrong, and I have a feeling there will be lots more as the years pass by. =P
I’m glad he’s not mortgaging the future for the present, because that is essentially what you do when you hand out a long deal.
Gomez and Campbell aren’t “long tail” deals—they are murderous cap hits for second-tier players that everyone mocked the day they were inked. Savard is considered one of the best bargains in the league. DiPietro… well, my personal philosophy is big money long-term for goalies is always a bad idea.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed..
and the DiPietro deal actually isn’t that bad. it looks ludicrous but if he ends up hurt he goes on LTIR, if he retires then it comes off the cap, and if he plays you have a top-flight goalie at 4mil a year.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
Stats aren’t everything.
DiPietro is a GREAT goalie when healthy.
If you’ve ever watched him you would agree.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
Joey Mac put up .900 on the island in front of the same team.
Regardless of whether DiPietro looks better, the results are the same.
you’re really going to tell me that Joey Mac is as good as Rick DiPietro?
I’m not an islanders fan, in fact I’m more of an Islanders hater, but you’re an idiot if you think that’s true.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
I’m saying their results are the same. There’s no basis for calling Rick DiPietro a good goalie, and even less for paying him 4 million dollars, even if he’s healthy for a whole season.
But that’s the point, if he is healthy then he is definitely worth the cash.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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he’s also had three seasons of plus .910 goaltending.
and two thirty win seasons on a terrible team.
When completely healthy DiPietro is MUCH MUCH better than most goaltenders out there.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
numbers arn’t everything, especially for players that play hurt or play recovering from injuries
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly.
in DiPietros two fully healthy years, he won thirty games and had a save % over .910.
but hey let’s ignore that for Joey Mac’s one outlier of a year.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
no no you’re right. Rick DiPietro totally sucks and the whole NHL is on acid.
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
by Chuck Diesel on Jun 30, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we’re losing sight of the point with this DiPietro example… it was obviously a huge backfire. There are many long-term deals which have worked out just fine.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
it was a stupid contract for sure, but while injured he isnt on the cap and thus does not effect the team they can ice
unless of course the islanders are in dire financial straights and his off the books salary is killing them
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
OK whatever
I honestly don’t give a shit about the Dipietro deal either way… for the Leafs, those dollars come off the cap (or you know, the LTIR exception… you know what I mean).
It doesn’t effect the team’s long-term competitiveness.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
DiPietro signed the deal September 2006 after a 30 win season and a .900 sv%.
In 2006-2007 he posted .919sv% and another 30 win season. At that point, the Isles were laughing. Needless to say, things didn’t turn out well.
However, their struggles in net have nothing to do with their commitment (the money is being paid by insurance apparently) or cap problems (because he’s on LTIR) but with their failure to address the possibility that they need to move on.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
But that's not often enough.
The Isles aren’t going to have any longterm success if D.P. keeps getting injured.
by Marc Pilgrim on Jun 30, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
The Islanders’ problem is that they have not moved on. They should have had a contingency plan in motion for goalie before DiPietro started his bag string of injuries. They finally drafted that beast Finn who is supposed to be great but because of that, not the money, they are stuck with stop gaps solutions in net.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
If the Islanders forwards develop half the potential they have, they are going to be fucking terrifying to play against in a year or two
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Bailey is good, but not half as good as islander fans think
he is like a Ryan Malone at best
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
he’s actually a lot better defensively than people realize, but yeah Islander fans think he’s amazing, he’s not.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
indeed, but Tavares, Nino, Okposo, Kabanov, hell even Moulson if he continues to be amazing and last wasnt his cheechoo year
yowzah
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
oh yeah, they are going to be a nasty team.
people made fun of garth snow when he got the job, but i think he’s doing a decent job.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
De Haan will be a good 2nd liner heart and soul type me thinks
the islanders are still balls on the block for defense and goaltending though
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
De Haan is a defenseman.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
ONE good young defenseman then
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Mark Streit hates you.
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
by Chuck Diesel on Jun 30, 2010 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
he’s missing the young quotient
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah yes I should read gooder next time. My bad
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
by Chuck Diesel on Jun 30, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Ya
They have a damn good set of youngsters. Let’s hope management can afford them once they all get good.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
my buddy Cizikas will be at camp this year, watch out!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
D.P. might be the worst nickname ever.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I prefer calling him “splodeybones”.
In Lou We Trust: Now More productive than a New Jersey Devils Powerplay
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jun 30, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you mean Brian Campbell and not Greg Campbell, because he a) just got traded and b) makes just over a million
Resident Capologist
You are in no way shape or form mortgaging the future for the present when you give out a long tail deal when you are the Toronto Maple Leafs. You are inserting high end talent at the top of the depth chart which allows players/prospects the opportunity to either face easier competition or develop longer in the minors.
In addition, the Toronto Maple Leafs are filthy rich. They can dump those contracts in the minors.
And, has been noted, only Savard and DiPietro are long-tail deals. You can’t even begin to see if Savard’s has done wrong and DiPietro’s is getting paid by insurance and not counting towards the cap so where’s the damage there?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
so you’re saying that Malkin, Nash, Staal, Thornton, Heatley, and Gaborik contracts were considered mortgaging the future?
Because they all make a ton of money, and have a high cap hit.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
don’t forget crosby and ovechkin
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes. Teams are paying for what the players are in the present. They have no clue how they’ll play in a decade.
The benefit is a cheaper player now.
The risk is wasting money later, which will happen on a fair number of these deals.
When a 3-4 year deal goes south, it doesn’t hurt your team that much. When these long ones go sour though, they’ll be trouble. And they will be more likely to go sour due to the length. Players age, get injured…the usual.
The risk is wasting money later, which will happen on a fair number of these deals.
That’s the point: Wasting money isn’t a risk for the Leafs.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Yes it is. People don’t get rich by throwing away money. And the teacher’s pension plan doesn’t make a good return by throwing away money on players.
This money is literally peanuts to the pension plan especially compared to the revenues that they would make on Kovalchuk merchadise alone.
His shirt sales would pay for the tail of the deal when he’s not worth it easily.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
MLSE- The M is for Money
Keep in mind that MLSE makes less money from ticket sales (as percentage of revenue) than any other team in the league. Diversification, baby.
Condo sales, LeafsTV, that abomination of a restaurant that is making money, merchandise (the Leafs have been #1 in Canada for the last several years, and are top-2 in the league…PLUS they’ve led the league in away (white) sweater sales since the league switched for the 2003-04 season), tv rights (forget Make it Seven- put the Leafs in the playoffs and CBC will get a collective boner stretching from their HQ building to the ACC), corporate sponsorships (they have over 350 corporate sponsors and counting, or about 3x what the league average is).
Remember- MLSE hasn’t budgeted any home playoff dates for several years.
I always point out for Americans that the GTA is a top-5 tv market if you lump all of North America.
This, my friends, is why Bettman won’t mess with the Leafs as it relates to a second GTA team.
The Maple Leafs and golf- making me insane since 1985.
by torleafsfan29 on Jun 30, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The perfect storm of landing Kovy + brand new sweaters will drive jersey profits to whole new heights.
They’re already going to be rediculous with just Phaneuf.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think MLSE doesn’t make a massive return on their investment in MLSE EVERY YEAR then you’re kidding yourself.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Ack
*If you think OTPP doesn’t make a massive return
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Burke asked for a certain amount of money for his Budget next year. They gave him more than that.
They realize that when Toronto is a playoff team again their ROI goes through the roof.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s the very definition of not seeing the forest for the trees. The economic benefits of a winning team vastly outweigh the risk of paying Kovalchuk $3-5M over the last 5 years of his deal (for example).
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Just think
of the t-shirt and sweater sales! They’d more than make up for that.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
No because you’re not seeing the forest for the trees.
Bad long contract = an uncompetitive team later on = no playoff revenue and decreased merchandising.
= NOT AN ISSUE FOR THE LEAFS
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
PPP brought up the increased money they could make from being a playoff team and merchandising.
But if it’s not an issue, it’s not an issue.
I still want Burke to sign Kovalchuk to a contract that is 7 years league max and 11 years 500k to see if the league has the balls to nullify it.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Why stop at 11 years? Let’s make history!
WWGRD? (What Would Gary Roberts Do?)
by PassivelyTruculent on Jun 30, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
My idea was to copy Gretzky’s 25 year deal he signed with Pocklington.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 1, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
of course they do
now, if Phoenix did it….
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
if kovalchuk made the leafs an extra 20 mill in playoff and merchandising (at least) his formative productive years, i dont think they’d mind burying 5 mill in his later declined years
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Again….sucky team = less merchandise plus no playoff revenues.
The idea of long contract is to get a good player cheap now. But a lot of them will devolve into a not so good player for too much. And the contracts will be impossible to dump. So the team will be worse.
GMs don’t really care, because odds are they won’t be with the same team in 10 years to have to deal with it if the shit hits the fan.
And the contracts will be impossible to dump. So the team will be worse.
Again, that’s the entire point of why the Toronto Maple Leafs should be doing these kinds of deals. They do NOT have to be saddled with them on the cap and hurting their abilities to ice a good team because they can toss him in the minors.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I feel obligated to mention that the NHLPA can get involved if you dump a player in the minors because of his cap hit and is mediocre and not because he sucks.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
They can whine all they want but if the contract doesn’t have a NMC then there is nothing they can do.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
you have to ice the “best team” so if you put an under performing bloat of a contract in the minors for say, a kid who is playing better than him on the cheap, i doubt its an issue
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem is when Kovalchuk is a 50 point forward and getting paid like a 100 point forward… In which case, you can’t send him down.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
if you replace him with a cheaper 51 point forward you can
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I just don’t see how you’ve decided the contract is already bad, before we know what it is? Because we’re paying a top talent a high salary?
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve decided long contracts are a bad idea. I said which ones will end up bad and which ones the team will get lucky in doing.
Although I do feel more confident about Crosby’s that most others. Ovechking plays a more dangerous game which worries me about his later years.
The ones like Richards I just don’t get.
Ya I’m sure Philly is super pissed locking in Richards for $5M/year.
Crosby, Ovi, Malkin, Toews, Kane, Backstrom… those teams must be pissed they have those players on their team for the next decade.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
They might in 10 years. Note that the first round of long-term contracts, Lecavalier, DiPietro, Yashin, etc.. almost all turned out badly halfway through.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
We could also argue
That many of the recent long-term deals are too early in to decide whether they were good or not yet. Jury is still out.
Citing the worst examples is fine for considering worst case scenarios, but doesn’t necessarily reflect possible mid-or-best case scenarios.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes
You’ve taken isolated cases and made them a rule without ever listening to why the Leafs are different.
At this point I’m just bashing my head against a brick wall trying to explain it.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
They’re not isolated at all.
And the point is that these deals regularly go wrong. And each year will see more and more go wrong. The players who manage to still be worth that money at the end will be pretty rare.
PLease name one long-term deal that has been completed where the team looks back and says “Yup, that was a mistake”
You can’t because not one of these long-term deals is even in its 4th year yet.
No idea what the salary cap landscape will look like in 10 years. No idea how these players will be performing 10 years from now.
YOu can argue the pros and cons of these deals all day long. All I know is that any GM who says as a rule that he is not considering every viable option provided to him under the CBA is not doing his job. And the Leafs financial backing puts them in a position to utilize the CBA better than most.
Resident Capologist
(Technically this is the last year of his deal.)
He was also the first uber-long-term contract signing.
0 for 1.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Although, Alexei Yashin’s contract was 10 years @ 9 million a year, which isn’t exactly what we’re talking about.
We’re talking about the current trend of putting all the money up front, then drastically reducing the salary at the end in order to reduce the cap hit.
Yashin’s contract falls into a grey area because it’s a pre-CBA contract so it’s not entriely relevant, but I’ll give you credit for it because it was just such a laughably bad contract.
Resident Capologist
I have no problem with tailing…on a 5 or year deal. You could probably only do that with a vet, but whatever.
My problem is that, outside of generational talents, I don’t have enough faith in any GM to be able to predict which players will still be worth the money in a decade. What I do know is that alot of these deals look to be going sour already and I don’t want my team hamstrung in the future just because the GM wants to make the playoffs now.
The NHL should just impose a length limit like the NBA, but that’s another discussion.
The idea is that the way they are structured it won’t matter what they look like in a decade!
Most of the money is paid in the first 4 or 5 years, if you don’t think that Kovy can be valuable for another 4 or 5 years then I don’t know what to tell you.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Pre-cap.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
the stupid thing about Yashin wasnt his contract as so much as it was the buy out
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Regularly?
You’ve cited one which hasn’t really gone wrong and one which just got signed.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I agree entirely with Burke. >5 years is NOT a good idea... ever.
Other ones that are likely to fail. (I’ll append the whole list so i can do percentages)
Contracts that are longer than 5 years: 43
E. Staal(maybe), Briere, Malone, Gomez, Franzen(maybe), Spezza (maybe), Yashin, Horcoff, Campbell, Redden, Bouwmeester, Timonen(maybe), Dipietro, Fluery, C. Ward, Luongo,
The maybes are more horribly overpaid than players that have significantly tailed off.
Forwards: 7/22 bad contracts
Defense: 4/14 bad contracts
Goaltenders: 4/7 bad contracts
Total: 15/43 bad contracts (35%)
Of those that are older than two years, almost all of them. Note that Crosby and Malkin both are on 5-year deals. That actually seems to be the cutoff. I like a lot of the 5-year deals and not many of the 6-year deals.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
For a poor team like Buffalo? Yes.
For the richest team in the league? No.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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This.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I admit your risk is lower, but we’re talking 8 digit mistakes here. (usually 10-20 million, except yashin, which was infinity.)
I also didn’t include Vanek because i’m a homer.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Also
Vanek’s contract wasn’t exactly Buffalo’s idea… silly Edmonton.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
they really shouldn’t have matched though
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
4 1st rounders > Vanek
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
It was a lose-lose situation for sure.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
The unfortunate part is that Darcy would not have matched it but he knew that he’d lose his job if he didn’t.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
I don’t believe for a second that Regier’s job was ever in danger.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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He wouldn’t have been fired, he’d have been lynched by an angry mob.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Right
His life was in danger but Golisano was never going to fire him.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
if he hadn’t matched, and somehow had survived, theyd be building him a statue for getting the Sabres Eberle, MPS, Gagne and Hall
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
One of those wasn’t an Oiler’s pick, but yes. Assuming of course Vanek’s 20 PPG/year didn’t save the oilers.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
lol
It wouldn’t have
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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IF
Any of our players EVER get offer sheeted and the compensation is 4 first round picks.
GTFO insert player with awesome potential but so not worth 4 first round picks
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Compare Albert “Stole all of the Redskins money” Haynesworth.
The redskins make rediculous gobs of money no matter how bad they are, but they still can’t get the owner to swallow 22 million dollars and cut him (not counting the 78 they’ve already paid him to do NOTHING)
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Except it doesn’t.
What’s Kovalchuk’s cap hit in year five of the deal if he gets his head knocked off and he has to retire? $0
What if he starts sucking in year 7 and is on the Marlies? $0
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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When GMs start demoting high price players to the minors regularly before the season, I’ll believe it.
That’s the rub. Burke has to have the balls to do it.
Other GMs won’t do it because the vast majority don’t have the resources to. Toronto does.
That’s another competitive edge that Burke needs to take advantage of which he hasn’t to date.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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I’m speaking in general. Burke says he has clearance. But most owners don’t want to be paying millions to someone in the minors.
if said player is keeping them from making more money in the post by icing a better team, yes they will
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Look at all the players who were just bought out.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
In all fairness, i don’t think Ethan Moreau would make the Oiler’s AHL team.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
You make a good point.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
i could totally see the AHL coach going “Please, for the love of Wendel, don’t send Moreau here!”
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Poor Moreau.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Guy’s a shitty leader.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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he also sucks at hockey
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
The owners have to okay it but Burke has to make the case that it’s needed and makes sense. If he can’t, it’s partly on him.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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they don’t go around tossing out money left, right and centre.
And yes… they do.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Theodles
1. What was the Leafs payroll pre-lockout?
2. How much have MLSE prices increased since then?
3. How much additional revenues would playoff home dates generate?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
That’s what I was thinking, does he remember how much money this team used to drop.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
1. 63 million or so I believe.
2. No clue…haven’t been to a game in ages.
3. How much less revenue would a less competitive team generate down the road.
3. How much less revenue would a less competitive team generate down the road.
What are you talking about? This doesn’t make sense.
Signing a front loaded, long-term deal does not guarantee you are less competative down the road.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
When a deal goes south and the player is still playing and still has a big cap hit….yes it does negatively impact the team.
You put him in the AHL.
What’s the big deal?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
in the case of Kovalchuk, the potential for good far outweighs the potential for bad
especially for the leafs
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m very doubtful the Leafs will land Kovalchuk. But if they do, and if they do so on a long deal and if his skills diminish the Leafs waive him and tell him to find a deal in the KHL. Most of his salary will have been paid by then anyways.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
exactomundo
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
You used Savard as an example of a bad contract
Yet, 4M is not a bad cap hit relative to his output. Term is long, but if not Boston would be paying him $7M/year against the cap. Would you rather that?
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I put on Savard because of the very serious concussion. I’m not sure he’ll ever be the same. It took Bergeron almost two years to recover from his knock on the head.
wasnt bergerons concussion more severe though? Grade 3 as opposed to a grade 2 or something like that?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it was. But Savard’s a bit older than Bergeron was, and it was still pretty serious. So I’m worried.
I agree that we should worry about his ability to play depending on the cost to acquire him in terms of prospects but not the cash.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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Bruins don’t pay Savard if he’s out with an injury/doesn’t recover from his concussion.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Sorry…I mean recover in terms of play. The first year Bergeron played, he was a shadow of his former self.
except for the whole Savard playing well in the playoffs thing…
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Bergeron was a grade 3, Savard grade 2. I have no idea what the actual difference is in terms of recovery, but I feel like it’s worth noting.
by Bower Power on Jun 30, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
The Leafs haven’t been competitive in five years and are leading the league in revenues. Why would they be less competitive down the road, and if they are, why would that impact their revenues any less than the past five years?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
My thoughts, you’re stealing them.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
So.. we should blame the fans?
So.. we should blame the fans?I joke, I kid, I play.
WWGRD? (What Would Gary Roberts Do?)
by PassivelyTruculent on Jun 30, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe its actually MLSE that got freeked out from all the long term deals JFJ handed out with NTCs and they told Burke to not make those contracts.
Then we’re back to where we were with JFJ and how he was unable to sell MLSE on the proper way forward in the new NHL.
If Burke can’t explain how this deal makes sense then he has failed.
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This is totally Burke’s preference.
Although really, is one of these lifetime deals really necessary for a guy like Kovalchuk? He’s 27.
If you were his agent, it would be terrible advice to tell him to take a 12 year deal where he gets 10 million in years 1-4 and 500K in years 10-12. I’d be advising him to take a 7 or 8 year deal where he gets 7 or 8 million a year, then when he’s 34 or 35 he can still get much more than 500 K on one last contract.
If I’m Kovalchuk, I think I take 7 years, 50 million, spread evenly over the term over 10 years, 80 million if all the money’s upfront.
Resident Capologist
Counterpoint
Zetterberg, Hossa, Duncan Keith, Franzen, Pronger, Nicklas Backstrom
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t include Pronger… he’ll murder Philly down the road.
But your other examples are sound.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess I was including Pronger as sort of a “We needed the long contract in order to get his contract low enough to fit under Philly’s cap”
obviously it backfired when it turned out it was a +35 deal.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem is there is an inability to counterpoint.
These players still have a decade in which something can go wrong. That in essence is the problem. Sports is something where shit happens. The longer you commit to someone, the more opportunity there is for shit to happen to someone. So risk increases as a function of length. But players don’t say to themselves, “Gee….there’s a good chance I’ll get hurt or something….and not be as effective…let’s take that into account to the degree to which it should be taken into account.”
of course not
Players want to get the maximum pay they can throughout their career, since they only play until 40 if they’re lucky and want to be set for life after that.
Regardless, a huge, long-term deal at Kovalchuk’s age doesn’t affect our cap if he is later injured, and MLSE has deep pockets, so there is no reason for the Leafs to do not do it.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure…but so far I haven’t seen any proof of any owners willing to swallow a large pill.
Even Finger at 3.5 mill last year stayed on our team when we could have used that money elsewhere. And I have a bad feeling he’ll still be on it this year.
where could we have used that money?
Did I miss the deal that was ruined because the Leafs couldnt clear Fingers contract?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, in the end it’s up to ownership.
And if it so happens that a deal like this can’t get done because ownership has said no, well, we’re little better off than in the Ballard years, aren’t we?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
It is also something you have to consider in negotiations. You don’t necessarily do these deals for the sake of doing them, but if you want to keep an elite player you may have to structure it this way.
Players who have all the leverage want long-deals IN CASE they get hurt or slow down production. It’s a necessary cost to keep a player.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem is there is an inability to counterpoint.
Oh if you say so.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
These players still have a decade in which something can go wrong. That in essence is the problem.
What can go wrong?
1. Injury – LTIR means no cap hit and insurance pays his salary
2. Retirement – no cap hit
3. Player can’t compete/loses skills – demoted to minors, no cap hit
4. Player turns out to be middling (a la Jason Blake) – possible trade to help teams reach salary floor (long tail deals=cap hit way higher than salary)
Sure there’s a downside here, but it’s nothing that can’t be dealt with and, to me, it appears the price that teams need to pay to compete.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
More to the point, any of those possibilities could potentially happen to a player on a 1 or 2 year deal. It’s called life.
If you live as a GM scared of your shadow because of what MIGHT happen, you are going to get fired. Risk management, not risk aversion.
Resident Capologist
name another way the leafs can snag an elite kovalchuk like talent with out home growing it
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
So wait.
You’re telling me that if I sign 10 consecutive one year deals as opposed to a 10 year deal, I somehow become less susceptible to risk of injury over the course of 10 years?
Resident Capologist
What should I spend my money on?
1 three hundred dollar hooker-bot, or 300 one-dollar hooker-bots?
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
100 cups of coffee!
Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee
Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee
Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee
Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee
Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee
Coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
You personally don’t.
The team takes less of a risk though since they don’t have to re-sign you and/or can adjust their offer.
You clearly don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.
What can go wrong?
1. Injury – LTIR means no cap hit and insurance pays his salary
2. Retirement – no cap hit
3. Player can’t compete/loses skills – demoted to minors, no cap hit
4. Player turns out to be middling (a la Jason Blake) – possible trade to help teams reach salary floor (long tail deals=cap hit way higher than salary)
As a player any of these risks are as likely to affect me in a given year whether I am signed for one year or 100. So you’re wrong when you say that they’re more likely to happen to a player on a long-term contract.
The team does carry a greater risk of having to deal with that over a long-term contract versus a short-term one. But they also have completely elminated the risk of losing the player when their contract expires. And if you’re only signing short-term deals, that risk is constant.
Risk management; not risk aversion. You accept the risks that you have no control over, and you take steps to mitigate the risks that you do have control over.
Resident Capologist
As usual, I’m confused. Who doesn’t have an idea of what they’re talking about?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’m pretty sure he was the only one who was confused about it. Everyone else seemed to know exactly what it was about.
I know exactly what’s going on.
You’re scared of any deal over 3 years, can’t argue your way out of a paper bag and are frankly kind of a dick-wallet
Resident Capologist
Fixed
You’re scared of any deal over 3 years, can’t argue your way out of a paper bag and are frankly kind of a dick-wallet
Fight the argument.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Theodies doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
I’m with you that these risks don’t matter in the grand scheme of things because they’re the same no matter how long the player’s contract term is.
Resident Capologist
Thanks for the clarification.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
1. Insurance for long term deals costs more.
3. Owners haven’t shown a real willingness to demote larger contracts as of yet.
If MLSE is willing to shove a player aside then I don’t mind, though it would impact how free agents view Toronto. But I wouldn’t really care, it’s their money, as long as they’re willing to bury it…
owners haven’t had the need to bury a larger contract yet
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
1. I somehow think MLSE can find the scratch
2. Mike Rathje, Darien Hatcher and Alex Mogilny would like a word with you
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Poor Alex.
WWGRD? (What Would Gary Roberts Do?)
by PassivelyTruculent on Jun 30, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Your assumptions are that:
- it certainly will go wrong and;
- there is nothing that can be done about the contract
Both are wrong as absolutes. Both can happen but they are far from 100% certainties
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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I haven’t assumed either.
I just don’t trust Burke to be able predict which ones will end up good or bad and I don’t trust MLSE to throw money down the drain if something does go wrong, and so I’d rather just stick with 5-6 year deals max.
I just want to say Theodles, I admire you putting up a good fight.
I agree with much of what you say, just not its application to Kovalchuk. I can’t think of a surer thing (acknowledging there is no SURE thing).
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
It looks like it has a >33% chance of going horribly wrong, by my math. I don’t really like those odds on 50+ million dollar contracts.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
I think you’re mistaking causation and correlation.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I would hypothesize that the chance of a player sustaining his play for more than 3 years is lower than 60%(probably 50%) when they’ve played well enough to earn a long-term contract.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Isn’t that largely dependent on the player’s age at the time of the deal being inked?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Oddly enough, no.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Got stats? Would love to see them.
I thought Mirtle had done a post on how productivity changes (i.e. decreases) as players age, but I can’t find it.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
It’s also that these contracts are usually signed in a very small range of ages.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
I suppose it depends on how you define small range.
What’s the average career length in the NHL?
Would love to see those stats.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
That would be tough to value. It depends on what your sample size parameters are. Many fringe NHLers who only play half a season may seriously bring down the average.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I suppose you could filter by minimum games played or TOI.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
True
but then you’d have to include a disclosure in your analysis that <X amount of games doesn’t constitute a “career”.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Hah…I put in average and google suggested “average penile length”
Anyway I searched and one site claims it’s 5 years. That wouldn’t surprise. Not sure what the numbers are once you weed out the flak though.
I would suspect approximatly 11 years.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
ages 22-33.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
This site puts it at about 5.5
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
i was talking 100 point producers or whatever the equivelent is for defence and goalies.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
100+ pts is an awfully small sample.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
career, not in a single year.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Do you think Ovi and Nik Backstrom’s contracts were mistakes?
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I suspect if you add Duncan Keith to those, one will be a horrific mistake.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Most likely OV.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
True
But his isn’t really a front loaded deal. It’s a “Holy shit we gotta play this guy a lot of money for a very long time” deal.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
And back to risk mitigation – if you’re the caps, do you not sign Ovechkin to the long-term deal and risk losing him in three years? Think of the marketing power and revenues to having one of the world’s most prominent players in Washington.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I consider this a no-win situation. I can’t exactly blame them for signing the contract, but there’s quite a good chance that they will regret it.
Also, ovechkin sells about 10 million dollars of revenue just on his personality in DC, so in terms of revenue they’ll be fine, though likely not on the ice.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Could be. I seriously doubt a 33 year old Ovechkin will be worth a $10M salary/ $9.5M cap hit.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I wouldn’t be shocked by it.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Bingo.
Long-term deals favour players when it comes to their own risk mitigation – injuries, regressing – they’ll still get paid hansomely.
They favour teams when keeping them long term can bring down the cap hit by structuring the deal front-loaded, or by eliminating the possibility of a high-level player walking to free agency.
I wonder if Atlanta had wished their previous deal with Kovy was longer?
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, with the cap consistently going up (and with Fehr coming in, probably going up even faster) deals signed further in the past look more and more favourable as the years go by.
In five years, paying Kovalchuk 8.5 is going to look like a steal.
http://bluechipprospects.blogspot.com
paying Kovalchuk 8.5 is going to look like a steal.
I doubt that. But it’s a necessary evil to acquire a talented player in free agency rather than through the draft.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Kovalchuk at 8.5 in 5 years would be about 6.7 now, unless revenue jumps substantially.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
unless revenue jumps substantially.
Leafs playoff revenue, we’ll support the whole godamn league!
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
And that’s the other point, in the window that Burke has set himself this is likely the only way he is going to get a player of Kovalchuk’s ability.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
unless he really wants Thornton next year and SJ doesnt want to retain him for some unforeseen reason
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
No guarantee Joe makes it to a UFA but Kovalchuk will.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
exactomundo
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I've be very surprised if SJ let Joe go to UFA.
Unless they really really gear up to win the cup THIS YEAR, no holes barred, if they dont trade him at the deadline or lock him up they’re silly.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
indeed, more and more and more, the only way to acquire elite talent is either to over pay in a trade or home grow it
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Or, fleece Sutter.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Heck, a 5-year, 35(9/8/7/6/5 front-loaded) million dollar contract in toronto might be quite appealing. Though it’d break his 5 year rule, he could throw a garbage year at the end and it’d probably still be okay. Anything longer than that is asking for fail.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
yeah, tack a 3 million dollar or less year on the end of it alone would be worth the cap hit drop
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m not saying that he HAS to do a 15 year deal but dismissing it outright is wrong. If he can get him on a shorter deal then great but the tail is one way of lowering the cap hit.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
If he’s doing 5-years, hell he might push it to 7 if he has to get the deal done, he could do:
11/11/11/4.5/2.5 for a 40M/5 years = 8m cap hit
or 11/11/11/11/5/0.5/0.5 for 50M/7 years = 7.17M cap hit
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I still say he should do the 5 years league max/7 years league min and see if the league has the balls to nullify it.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
It would be funny
If he was then traded to a small market team, having Kovy for $500k real salary could swing a huge package coming back the other way.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t there a rule where the salary can’t drop a certain amount of $$ between years?
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
I’ve never heard of that, maybe though.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes
It’s complicated but you can’t have league max 5 years and then 2 years of league min
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
throw in a middle hafly year!
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats what
A few of the structures do. Hossa, Savard, and Lecavelier all have 1 middle-salary year before tailing off.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I think salary can’t decrease by more than 50% each year. So it would have to be something like $5M, $2.5M, $1.25M, $625K
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I thought so too, but check out Savard’s contract: http://capgeek.com/players/display.php?id=212
It goes from $5M down to $1.5M the next and then $0.525M then year after.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Ya that’s not the case, though it might make sense.
Some jump from like 10 to 5 to 1 to 0.5
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The CBA has the complicated math set out in section 50.7.
What’s interesting is that all of the examples are about player’s salaries increasing – not decreasing. Talk about not seeing the big loophole to the salary cap.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
If the Canadian dollar goes back down to seventy cents on the dollar, the cap will drop again.
But given the troubles the US is having, that doesn’t seem likely anytime soon.
Doesn’t the CBA get re-negotiated at the end of this year?
My guess is that if that’s the case we will never see the cap dip below $59M again.
http://bluechipprospects.blogspot.com
Good Point
The world ends in 2012 anyway.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Side thought: When the NHL re-negotiates TV deals, it might get to snag more money. I think their deal with Versus ends soon, but I can’t remember when.
just had this argument with someone yesterday.
we’re not getting much more from Versus, and i doubt we’re going to ESPN.
Who wants to hear a funny ass joke?
TV
For US deals, much of this will come down to whether or not the US FCC approves Comcast’s acquisition of NBC/Universal. NBC has never had a cable sports station…if this deal goes through they have one in Versus.
The other rumour is that the NHL extends the Versus deal but offers ESPN/Disney a package of games (an exclusive window of sorts) and a small slate of playoff games (similar to the NBA deal with Turner).
CTV/Globemedia lost their ass on the Vancouver Olympics and are all but on record as saying that even adding a 7th Canadian team wouldn’t cause a bump in NHL rights fees.
Your canary in the coalmine will be the 2014 Olympics rights.
The Maple Leafs and golf- making me insane since 1985.
by torleafsfan29 on Jun 30, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
My Theory on Burke's statements
Other GMs will totally not expect the 12 year, massively front loaded deal he throws at Kovalchuck! WOOOT
DAMMIT PEOPLE I TOLD MYSELF I WOULDN’T GET EXCITED ABOUT THIS
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:22 AM EDT reply actions
Ribiero?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Eww.
I like to get banged.
by Phaneuf's Rock Collection on Jun 30, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I could only distract myself with him for so long.
I like Kovalchuck so much more.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Andrew Ladd?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
WOO
It’s too late, we are all getting sucked into this no matter what we think. That’s what makes this whole thing even crazier when he doesn’t end up here
I like to get banged.
by Phaneuf's Rock Collection on Jun 30, 2010 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I know. I don’t want the disappointment. But now I’m sucked in. GAH
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
We’ll all be like, I never thought we would sign him all along.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Hawerchuk was right, he sucks, what an overpayment.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Plus I heard he called Schenn ugly.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
that son of a…
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
and he wears stupid turtle necks
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Russians are moody, anyways.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
i cant wait to buy my Ilya Kovalchuck maple leafs turtleneck
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
way to ruin it
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
:D
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Contracts Buried
Kyle McLaren at a salary over $3.5M
Alex Mogilny at a salary over $3.5M
Mark Bell at $2M I think
It’s happened. And with a deal with a tail the actual dollar expenditure of multiple years in the minors probably won’t be that much more than Almo or McLaren’s outlay.
And, has been mentioned before, Kovalchuk is Russian. He’ll just go to the KHL and make his scratch there. Who else has run to Europe and not counted towards the cap? Nylander.
So there are myriad options to deal with the seemingly inevitable terrible injury and I’ll reiterate:
Not using these deals out of a misplaced sense of honour is stupid.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Agreed, Detroit is one of the most successful franchises around…..theyve got their franchise players locked up…….When an elite talent waltz’s up to your door and asks for a long term deal that is entirely feasible by MLSE……YOU DO IT……be cause if you don’t someone else sure as hell won’t think twice
Toronto Maple Leafs: Looking at next year since 1967
by LeafFan1989 on Jun 30, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget
Jonathan Cheechoo!
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m hearing lots of chatter that the Leafs are going to go after Hamhuis or another D-man on July 1 and then move out existing D-men to improve their forwards via trade.
This seems ludicrous to me:
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’ll be pissed if he signs Hamuis for a Komi type deal……already enough D-men, most depth position in our prospect and NHL system. We need forwards
Toronto Maple Leafs: Looking at next year since 1967
by LeafFan1989 on Jun 30, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Toronto Star is just trying to stir shit up me thinks. Sports page was talking about this today
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
When Cox mentions it I think it’s crazy but I also wonder if it’s part of his newfound access to the club’s management.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
It frightens me.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not hearing it from Cox and the Star, but from a few sports reporters I know.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
When did these new privileges happen?
Toronto Maple Leafs: Looking at next year since 1967
by LeafFan1989 on Jun 30, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Jesus. That can’t really be Burke’s plan…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
If Burkie signs another D-Man, he needs to have his head examined.
On the other hand….we could make one of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u88WdovasU0
But with Brian Burke signing D to stop……well…damn…guess we don’t have any elite scorers in our division.
If Hamhuis gets signed, it’s because the team doesn’t trust Komisarek’s shoulder.
by Bower Power on Jun 30, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
and Kaberle is moved
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I will say, I don’t hate the idea of having Hamhuis at 3 mil, but it means if we do get kovalchuk, that deal needs to be 7.5 or less.
by Bower Power on Jun 30, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Hamhuis at 3 mil?
Good luck with that
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
I’m hearing closer to $5M for Hamhuis.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
yeah, same, didnt he turn down 4+ from phily or something?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
he turned down a 4mil/4 year contract not on money, but on ice time. he didn’t want the 10 minutes of ice time vacated by ryan parent.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
ah yes, what a stupid negotiation tactic
either he really didnt want to play for philly and was just fucking with them to get away or his agent has his head buzzing with stupid ideas
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
what i don’t get is why they were willing to pay 4 million dollars for a defensemen that they’d be playing 10-15 minutes a game
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Yea, people are saying Van is likely.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s pretty much my point. Hamhuis would be at the expense of Kovalchuk, unless there’s some ridiculous negotiating going on.
by Bower Power on Jun 30, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Kovulchuk......6 straight 40 goal seasons!!!!!!!
WANT
Toronto Maple Leafs: Looking at next year since 1967
Basically.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I like your analysis
and would like to subscribe to your newletter.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand the basics of Hawerchuck's analysis
especially comparing Kaleta to Kovalchuk. But, it seems to me that it’s far easier to find a guy who can draw a bunch of penalties than it is to find a guy who can score 50 goals.
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
indeed, we already have Grabbo and Kulie that draw a bunch of penalties
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Kaleta’s penalty drawing abilities the last three years are seven standard deviations from the mean. That’s rediculous.
Not even the Toronto Maple Leafs could kill my optimism
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
i’m not trying to take anything away from Kaleta. But you still have to surround him with players that can score
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
I agree. It’s awesome that he’s incredible at doing that but if your team’s PK stinks then it’s pretty useless. Whereas actual goals are always valuable.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Aside from Kovalchuk, the FA class this year is extremely poor. The 2011 FA class seems to have a much better pool of talent from what I’ve read. As such, I’d rather save the money on free agents this year and focus on next year.
38 year old Ray Whitney is the #2 FA prize.
Ray Whitney folks.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
A team like Pittsburgh would love to have Whitney on their team.
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Ya but
for 3 more years like he wants? How often can you keep grabbing players at the end of their careers to line up with Sid.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
as long as they can, its hard for them to afford anything else on the wing
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Those numbers will likely dwindle to the point of being face palm worthy by the time free agency rolls around.
You don’t want to get caught with egg on your face. We thought we were going to get Rick Nash, remember?
http://bluechipprospects.blogspot.com
Yeah, I remember. However, some of the players that will become free agents that year I don’t think will resign with their teams until maybe after July 1, 2011 (eg. Brad Richards).
I don’t think you win much if Brad Richards is the best player on your team though. Maybe Im wrong.
http://bluechipprospects.blogspot.com
Bergeron is meh. I’d wager Backes will never hit UFA status.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’d wager Backes will never hit UFA status.
Don’t kill my dream just yet.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
2011 FA class isn’t great either.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I read it from that site. It’s still a whole lot better than this years. After Kovalchuk, who else is really available that is worth signing?
Nobody. But next year is no great shakes either. And I’m guessing many of those guys don’t even hit UFA status.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
FROLOV!!!1…… ok sorry
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Jun 30, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Matthew Lombardi
I still like that kid, even if he doesn’t fit Burke’s mold
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
if the leafs had any need for a 2-3 center I’d be all over that
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s my thinking. He’d be a great fit, but he’s not a number 1 center.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
We could trade Grabbo…
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
I’d rather have grabbo, he’s younger and can produce just as well
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Who is exactly the same player, probably better if I bothered to look up his BTN stats and will likely cost more.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Err
Grabbo will be cheaper
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Shhh
I’m just ruffling some feathers
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
Tell you what. If Tampa was interested, I’d be all over a Kaberle for St. Louis swap
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
Hmm
No. So old. Not many years left. Still damn good though.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, if the leafs were at least a long shot away from contention I’d be all over that, but they arnt
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey Triple P:
This post is aces. Well done, and rec’d.
Is it possible - and I’m italicizing the word possible to show that I think it’s a bit of a stretch – that Burke is saying the stuff he’s saying about no useless tail years on a contract bla bla bla simply to allow himself to maintain publicly that any deal he signs someone like Kovy to has legitimate term years only, and isn’t a farcical contrivance to essentially circumvent the cap? In other words, he’s giving himself the freedom to lie about a Kovy deal to the NHL – Honest, Gary, we didn’t tack on a bunch of term to reduce the cap hit, this is a legitimate contract with a legitmate term. We would never do that. I’ve publicly said, I’m against those sorts of contracts"
I remember reading somewhere that the league takes a dim view of these types of deals (though of course they have continued to allow them). Burke wouldn’t be the first guy to publicly denounce the doing of something just to provide himself a smokescreen so that he can do the very thing he’s denouncing.
I make my own head hurt sometimes.
Anyway, terrific post. I hope Burkie is thinking along the same lines you are.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Unfortunately
I honestly believe Burke when he talks about being against long-term, cap-circumventing deals and how against them he is.
It worries me that the MAX he might do is 5 years, but may push it to 7 if he has to. I don’t know if the front-loading is as big of a problem as the tail is.
All will become clear tomorrow (hopefully).
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Honest, Gary, we didn’t tack on a bunch of term to reduce the cap hit, this is a legitimate contract with a legitmate term. We would never do that. I’ve publicly said, I’m against those sorts of contracts"
I think this very well could be true. While I believe that Burke is probably against them in principle as well, I would think he’s also smart enough to use this to his advantage.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously if Burke was saying that just to smokescreen himself, then that is some James Bond villain level of genius right there.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Some straight up David Copperfield shit.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Burke’s a clever guy. But he’s not that smart.
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
Burke’s a clever guy. But he’s not that smart.
BLASPHEMER! BURN THE WITCH!!!1
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
thou shalt believe

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't like Kovalchuk
Yeah, I’m going to say it. Hawerchuk doesn’t either, and for similar (but statistically more sound) reasons. To me, Kovalchuk has “great player on a lousy team” written all over him, and his brief failure with the Devils only helped to emphasize it. He has unquestionable offensive talent, unmatched in the free agent pool, but I just don’t see the complete, team game necessary to win games. I can easily envision him coming to Toronto, continuing to score 30-40 goals, and continuing to lose.
Players do change; Hull did, Mogilny did, maybe Kovie can. I’m just skeptical. And I’m convinced that unless his approach changes he’s not worth anywhere close to $8-9M per season.
Also: I really don’t like Ribeiro, so let’s just rule that out.
Burke needs to add to his top 6 forwards and his top 4 defencemen (especially if Kaberle goes) – we agreed that’s how you get better, right? That pushes the existing guys down to make stronger depth players.
I’d sign Frolov – he goes in the top six (really the top three). I like Lombardi better than Grabovski, so I’d look at him as a top-six guy. If Savard can really be had for as little as Grabbo, I make that move. Gonchar (who could replace Kaberle short-term), Hamhuis and Martin would fit in the Leafs’ top four, so I’d look at them, too. Add enough depth there and maybe they really could move Schenn out for someone young and gifted up front.
Wherever Kovalchuk does land might open up trade possibilities for other top-six candidates, and there may still be players like Brad Richards available via trade. That, at least, is my insufficiently humble opinion of what Burke should do.
I've been looking at the sky
27 pts in 27 games with New Jersey. You can’t blame the NJ failure in the playoffs on Kovalchuk. That was a team losing effort.
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
And I thought most agreed he was NJ’s best player in the playoffs. Not his fault they lost.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me tell you one reason I don't like Howerchuks analysis
He says that Kaleta and Kovalchuk are comparable because Kovalchuk scores goals while Kaleta draws penalties on which goals are scored.
Who the hell do you think are the types of players that put the puck in the net on those powerplays? They aren’t the Kaletas of the league; they are the Kovalchuks.
Seriously Kovalchuk is a Top 10, maybe even Top 5 player in the league. No question about it.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
The Kaleta post was tongue-in-cheek. Top 10/Top 5 is a matter of opinion. You’re certainly not alone. I could name 10 forwards I’d rather have for next year without hesitation, but that’s opinion too. If you want stats, this Behind the Net post is much more on point.
In no order and incomplete:
Crosby
Ovechkin
Sedin 1
Sedin 2
Toews
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Parise
Thornton
Malkin
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
wait, how did Daniel Sedin get on there?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
How could Henrik be on and not Daniel? The only difference between the two at any point in their career is the 19 games Daniel was injured this year. Points per game, this season it was 1.37 versus 1.35.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
either way I don’t know how it’s fair to compare either of those guys to Kovalchuk.
Daniel is a “sniper” like Kovalchuk, yet is not nearly as consistent despite having a primiere playmaker as his center.
If Kovalchuk had Henrik centering him, do you not think he’d look a lot better on paper?
I just picked Daniel because he’s a shooter so it’s easier to compare him. Also, Henrik has proven his talent without Daniel.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
How many of those 10 are currently available on the open market? If you were take those 10 names and put Kovalchuk in the mix I’d have it:
Crosby
Ovie
Datsyuk
Kovalchuk
Malkin
Parise
Toews
Thornton
H. Sedin
D. Sedin
Zetterberg
With Zetterberg and D. Sedin being well below the rest.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Also
how many of those guys are available? Or will be within the next 5 years?
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
None
and I readily agree that holding out until, say, Rick Nash (who I also think is better) becomes available is foolhardy.
But is Brian Campbell’s contract bad because he’s a lousy defenceman, or because it’s much more than he’s worth? Players like him aren’t on the free agent list every year either. There isn’t a young defenceman with his offensive talent available this year at all.
Kovalchuk is just not my guy, and I’d rather sign other players.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
there’s no one else available. the Leafs have one trade chip (Kaberle) and he’s not bringing back a top line scorer. This is th Leafs only chance to bring in an elite offensive player in the next 2 years
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
That doesn’t mean it’s time to commit to sucking. Things change and players (like Kessel and Phaneuf) become available.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Do not see how signing Kovalchuk is “committing to sucking”
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that Kovalchuk is a great player on a lousy team. I believe that if the Leafs sign him there is a good chance they will enjoy the same success that Atlanta did. If you agreed with me (and I know you don’t), then signing him anyway (long term and big money) just because he’s the best player available is committing to sucking.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe that Brian Burke is a much better GM than Don Waddell, and therefore we will not have the same success as Atlanta did with Kovalchuk.
In fact, the only similarities between Atlanta and Toronto would in fact be having Kovalchuk on the team.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
the thing is, the Leafs are not the thrashers, they have (what looks like) a developing solid D corpse and goaltending and plenty of decent secondary weapons
they also have a good GM commited to winning
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, players do become available that usually wouldn't
Like this player. Like tomorrow.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
if anything
I’m becoming more convinced that Burke will make a play for Kovalchuk because he was so decisive when Kessel and Phaneuf became available.
High end talent needs to be grabbed when it’s there to get, and Burke has shown he’s willing to pay what is required to get it (and in Phaneuf’s case, it was almost laughably low).
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
that we’ll soon see whether or not Burke thinks Kovalchuk is really high end talent.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
if he thinks Phaneuf is, how does he look at 6 consecutive 40 goal seasons and say Kovalchuk is not?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
The Leafs have even less now to trade away. Beyond Kaberle, you start getting into players like Bozak, Kulemin, Stalberg, etc if you want to make a deal.
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
oh, and don't forget future first round draft picks
"if women think they aren’t meant to cook…then why do they have milk and eggs inside them?"
The world ends in 2012
Get rid of all our draft picks after that!
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I know everyone says Campbell’s contract is bad, but really, I don’t know that the Hawks win the cup without him. If you have players out performing ELCs, these front loaded contracts are not the cap killers they may appear to be.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t like Kovy for his lack of “team game” but you advocate signing Frolov…?
Have you ever seen Floating Frolov play…?
I have nothing interesting to say.
by blurr1974 on Jun 30, 2010 5:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He'd be a lot cheaper
I’ve seen Frolov have good times and bad times, but no, I haven’t seen him much.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
kovalchuk alone would make the leafs at least 5 spots higher on the PP rankings which would win them (rough unresearched number) about 5 more games, giving them another ten points in the standings, not to mention he is pretty good in the shoot out
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure of the stats
but does 7 power play goals, over the course of the season, equal 5 more regulation wins? I’m skeptical.
That’s the difference between the Leafs and the 25th best powerplay team, which was, er, Atlanta.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
how many times in over time or at the end of a game last year were the leafs on the PP and not able to do jack shit?
at least 10
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t blame him for losing, but I can blame him for not winning. He sucked up lots of ice time (which is what a great-player-on-lousy-team does), hogged the puck (same), and played virtually every minute on the powerplay. For that, he produced two points in five games at even strength, one of which was an empty net goal.
Not once was he named one of the games “Three Stars”. In his most successful game – the only one with even strength points – the “Stars” were Zubrus, Elias and Parise. If he was New Jersey’s best player, he hid it well.
Those are good players. The Devils were a genuinely very good team (for the East) before they got Kovalchuk. If he was worth $8M they shouldn’t have fallen in the first round.
I've been looking at the sky
Reply fail.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
well then clearly Ovechkin isn’t work $12 million.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ovechkin won more playoff games and scored more playoff points this year than Kovalchuk has in his entire career. He scored more even strength points in Game 6 than Kovalchuk did in five games. In his rookie year he scored 50 goals and 100 points (and was +2) on a team that otherwise would have been contending for worst all-time.
They’re both Russian and they both love to score goals. But only one looks like a winner. Kovalchuk is good, but he’s not in the same conversation as Ovechkin.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The Devils were a genuinely very good team (for the East) before they got Kovalchuk. If he was worth $8M they shouldn’t have fallen in the first round.
You’re saying that if Kovalchuk was worth is money, he should’ve dragged the Devils out of the first round.
I’m saying that if you think that, then it’s only logical to think that Ovechkin’s not worth his money for not dragging the Caps out of the first round.
I say this because I think both claims are absurd.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And I’m saying look at how each of them played in their series. It’s not just that Kovalchuk didn’t win. He didn’t even stand out for anything except playing time. Ovechkin was a force despite losing.
Really, I’m not sure the Caps are a very good team without Ovechkin. Would they have made the playoffs?
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, the free-wheeling sniper does better on a team whose system is “PASS TO THE GOAL SCORER” than the system that advocates everyone plays defense?
Also, Ovie and the caps also made a first round exit.
Also, Ovie and the caps also made a first round exit.
That’s the point.
As well, I think Kovalchuk played very well in the first round. Others above have stated the same opinion. I also think the Caps are a pretty good team minus Ovechkin, although clearly not President’s Trophy winners.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Ovechkin a ‘force’ in the first round? Ovie was terrible, he just skated around waiting to receive passes. He played right into the Habs system and didn’t adjust.
If by terrible
You mean 5 goals and 10 points on 34 shots in the last 6 games, yeah, he barely had an impact.
He wasn’t very good in game 1, I’ll give you that.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Kovalchuk managed one goal against a guy with the same career save percentage as Vesa Toskala.
I've been looking at the sky
Friggin. Two reply fails on the same thread…
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
6 points in 5 games. 10.5% shooting percentage (well under career average 14.8). Had played 32 games with that team. Had to beat out Pronger.
If you want to detract from the guy, that’s fine, but don’t oversimplify the situation.
I laid it out already
But if you’re satisfied that the only time he was able to score on Michael Leighton in five games was during a 5-on-3 powerplay, then I can’t convince you that he wasn’t very good.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m satisfied that his shortcomings in those 5 games were more a product of the team’s pitfalls than his individually. I’m also fairly certain that Chris Pronger is still really good. I’m also satisfied with his consistent more-than-ppg production.
I totally agree that he wasn’t phenomenal in the first round of the playoffs. Maybe not even “very good.” But he’s good, and he’s someone I’d be happy to have on this team. Even if it means slightly overpaying.
OK
let’s say that Kovalchuk was not very good in the playoffs for the Devils. He was also bad in the playoffs for Atlanta.
Would you pass on Joe Thornton because of his “bad in the playoffs” label?
Do you know how many years the Sedins were labelled as such?
What about Stevie Yzerman?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Leafs would have to get into the playoffs for Kovy’s playoff struggles to be relevant anyway.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
hah, yes
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Jun 30, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
yup, and if Kovy alone gets the leafs into the post as the 8th seed then the signing might very well be worth it right there
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, no.
I wouldn’t judge Kovalchuk based on his very limited playoff experience. In my original comment, it was simply the exclamation point on my main issue, which is that he’s surprisingly mediocre at even strength during the regular season.
I said he was a great player on a lousy team, and his playoff failures (in limited opportunities) simply back that up. Then people questioned whether this last playoff was really a failure, and I pointed out that it certainly looked like one.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Jun 30, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
same for Sundin. Hossa also had that label and now he has 3 finals and a cup. If you’re going to judge a guy on one round of performance against a team that was an eventual finalist, you might as well use 6 poker hands as a gauge for whether you’re a good poker player or not. Sample size is whack. Leafs need goals. He scores 40+ every year. We have money to spend. WTF is the problem?
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
by Chuck Diesel on Jun 30, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
me

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions

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