What Should Brian Burke Do (Part IV)?
Editor's Note: Here is the fourth part of The '67 Sound's analysis of what moves Brian Burke should make beginning tomorrow. Part I looked at the basis on which he was evaluating the Leafs' roster, part II he looked at the current, established NHLers on the roster, and part three tried to project out what the Leafs' have in terms of their top prospects. Now it's up to the question of What Should Brian Burke Do?
Having looked at what the Leafs have, and what they need, here without further ado are my humble suggestions for how to go about filling those holes.
The name of the game in a salary-capped world is efficiency. You need to maximize production and minimize cost for every player. So what exactly is an efficient player? I calculated this by figuring out what a team needs, what they have to spend, and dividing the two.
Since I'm using GVT as my primary sorting tool, I need to know what "team GVT" will make you a contender. The "threshold" in "goals versus threshold" is what a team of marginal NHL players would produce. The worst team in the NHL this year, the Oilers, were -70 in goal differential. They were better than a threshold team, which would be composed exclusively of players readily available from the AHL or waiver market. The Oilers weren't that bad--so let's set the bottom limit at 150% of the Oilers, or -105. By how much does a contender need to exceed that? The top 8 teams this year in goal differential had an average of +44. Our team therefore needs to have a GVT of 150 - 150 better than the threshold of -105, not a +150 goal differential, mind you - to be a contender. As a reality check, last year the Canucks were 170, the Sharks 165, and the Devils 145. 150 sounds about right for "legitimate contender". The Leafs, by the way, were 67. There's a long way to go.
The question of what a team has to spend is easier: $59.4MM. What about "versus threshold"? I figure a "threshold" player makes $750,000-a little above league minimum. So salary floor aside, I am estimating that a hypothetical team of "threshold" players, making $750,000/player, would make $17.25MM and be outscored by 105 goals. A contender needs to get a GVT of +150 (or put differently, a goal differential of +45, which is 150 above the threshold of -105) out of the $42.15 it has to spend above the minimum threshold. In simplest terms, you need 3.5 GVT/$1MM above threshold. Remember the threshold: this means that a player with a 3.5 GVT should be worth $1MM plus the $750,000 threshold salary.
This gives us a sorting tool for potential UFAs. I've gone through the lists, and come up with several players with solid GVTs for their salaries last year. I've also indicated their "efficient salary", meaning they satisfy the 3.5GVT/1$MM test I outlined above.
|
Player |
GVT 2009/10 |
Efficient Salary |
|
8.1 |
3.06 |
|
|
Matt Lombardi |
7.8 |
2.98 |
|
6.9 |
2.72 |
|
|
4.9 |
2.15 |
|
|
4.5 |
2.04 |
|
|
3 |
1.61 |
|
|
Jonathan Sim |
2.4 |
1.44 |
|
2.3 |
1.41 |
And just for fun:
|
GVT 2009/10 |
Efficient Salary |
|
|
Kulemin |
7.8 |
3.0 |
|
Mitchell |
3 |
1.6 |
Disclaimer: I do not claim the "efficient salaries" I have listed are the right number for these players. It is a crude tool, and much more sophisticated analysis of scouting reports and advanced stats would be necessary to figure out a player's actual value. To give one example, Anton Volchenkov's GVT of 5.1 last year would suggest an "efficient salary" of $2.2MM. Given the hard minutes he plays, he's obviously worth more (though not anything close to $5MM I would argue). I came up with "efficient salary" just to get a ballpark figure that will be appropriate for most players.
There are risks with all these players. Malhotra is coming off a career year and probably is not as good as he looked. Torres is aging in dog years. Belanger played with the Capitals so his statistics may be inflated. Sim has been terrible in previous years. Hendricks and Nystrom only have one good year under their belts. The only two relatively reliable bets here are Lombardi and Armstrong, and both are likely to cost significantly more than the "efficient salary" figures I have indicated.
The riskiness of UFA signings is enhanced by looking at past experience. I looked at UFA signings from two years ago, and was not surprised to see that the overwhelming majority of the signings have been disappointments (the four top signings that year? Brian Campbell, Wade Redden, Cristobal Huet and Brian Rolston. Four of the worst contracts in the NHL). The only signings from that year that I would call successes (other than re-signings, which tend to be less risky), are Mark Streit, Cory Stillman, Niklas Hagman, Glen Metropolit, Ty Conklin and Brian Boucher. Six out of 40.
So the question is, do you want to play UFA roulette with Colby Armstrong or Matt Lombardi? My answer is no. If I am going to overpay, I want it to be for a difference maker. I want it to be for someone who will play over 20 minutes per game. I want it to be for someone who will make everyone around him better, both by his play on the ice, and by shifting everyone else down in the depth chart so that they can play softer minutes. I want it to be for as close to sure thing as you can get.
Let me show you three more names that have been associated with the Leafs:
|
Player |
GVT 2009/10 |
Efficient Salary |
|
19.1 |
6.2 |
|
|
15.2* |
5.0 |
|
|
12.7* |
4.4 |
Kovalchuk will probably cost between $6.5-8.0MM, depending on how long a tail you can put on his contract. While he's arguably overpaid compared to the "efficient salary", particularly if you consider some of the advanced stats Gabe Desjardins has recently posted indicating that Kovalchuk plays relatively soft minutes, recall that UFAs will always be relatively overpaid, and ELCs relatively underpaid, with RFAs around the middle. He's also about as close to a sure thing as you can find. For six straight years he's posted a GVT of 14.5 to 21.7, played at least 76 games, and scored at least 41 goals. Frankly, I do not mind overpaying an elite player like Kovalchuk by a million or two.
For Savard, his GVT was actually 7.6 in 41 games; I doubled it for a full season total. His previous four years he averaged 16.5. Savard's cap hit is $4MM. He is exceptional value, though there are risks given his age and injury history.
Ribeiro's figure is based on normalizing last year's figure to 82 games (he played 66) and averaging with 2008/2009. This is to be generous to him given his relatively poor 2009/2010. Still, his $5MM salary makes him overpaid compared to his "efficient salary". Less overpaid than Kovalchuk is likely to be, but here is where statistics yield to philosophies of how to build a team. I would rather overpay a 27 year old elite talent than a 30 year old second-tier talent, particularly because acquiring the latter ties up cap space and harms your chances of ever getting the former.
Here's the bottom line. As Mirtle pointed out in the Globe this morning, 18 of the 30 highest scorers in the league last year are locked up through at least 2013/14. 24 of 30 are still with the team that drafted them. Elite offensive talent simply does not become available very often. This is one of those times. Ilya freaking Kovalchuk is available, in his prime. Moreover, unlike Savard and Ribeiro, you give up nothing to get him.
If Kovalchuk can't be signed and Savard can't be traded for, I would effectively sit out free agency until the initial flurry is done, and then try to fill holes with short-term contracts for players who slipped through the cracks. Bargains are never found at the outset of free agency. As Duhatschek quoted George McPhee this morning, "You're almost always better off sitting back and being smart about it. Almost all of us have experienced that signing where you sign the guy and six months later, you're going, 'Why did we do that?'" Leafs fans should be nodding vigourously now. Save your cap space for a trade, or next year's UFA market. Do not, please for the love of God do NOT throw around $3MM+ contracts to glorified third liners.
***
So here is the bottom line. We do not have that many holes to fill. The defence is relatively set, and we have 11 serviceable NHL forwards. Adding a third liner will have no noticeable impact on the team. A third liner, at best, can expect to have a GVT around 5. We need to improve by about +80 compared to last year (from our +67 up to +150 for "contender" status). Probably +40 of that can be made by substituting .915 goaltending (worth about +20 GVT) for the -18 we received combined from Toskala, Gustavsson and MacDonald. A big "if", but not inconceivable. Another +10 can come from improvements by a young roster, a bounceback from Komisarek, and the introduction of a player like Kadri. Again, conceivable. This alone could push us to bubble status. The other +30 will not be made up by Colby Armstrong or Raffi Torres. It can be made up by Ilya Kovalchuk and Marc Savard.
Make it happen, Burke.
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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slow clapping
Very well done.
Loving the Leafs is like being in love with a drug-addled, gambling addicted prostitute with a heart of gold and a bunch of humanitarian awards from her youth. It’s hard. It hurts. But dammit! I just love them!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jun 30, 2010 2:01 PM EDT reply actions
Funny, I always thought the slow clap was an insult. In elementary and high school if someone said a really stupid answer out loud in class the whole class would slow clap to make fun of them. The teachers hated it but it was unstoppable and hilarious.
by CanadianMaple09 on Jun 30, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
If someone had done that during my practicum I would have had a hard time not laughing.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think just about everyone got slow-clapped at some point, and some kids pretty regularly. Sometimes we’d change it up and start slow and then slowly accelerate. That’s what the teacher’s hated most… imagine trying to calm a class down after they’ve just whipped themselves into a frenzy clapping!
by CanadianMaple09 on Jun 30, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be tough, yes. You just need to insult the kid who started it, chances are they were a dullard themselves.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess this is what I have in mind. Like on the Crown Royal commercial. Or is it Canadian Club?
Loving the Leafs is like being in love with a drug-addled, gambling addicted prostitute with a heart of gold and a bunch of humanitarian awards from her youth. It’s hard. It hurts. But dammit! I just love them!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jun 30, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome to the Society of Uncompromising Men. Welcome to the Wiserhood.
Because some player nicknames just make sense.
by Sergei Puckizin on Jun 30, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew it was some kind of rye whiskey.
Loving the Leafs is like being in love with a drug-addled, gambling addicted prostitute with a heart of gold and a bunch of humanitarian awards from her youth. It’s hard. It hurts. But dammit! I just love them!
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Jun 30, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhh
The editor’s note is lying to me!
Here is the third part of The ‘67 Sound’s analysis of what moves Brian Burke should make beginning tomorrow.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
As if I needed further convincing
That Burke should chase Kovy.
But if I did, this would have put me over the top.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Lots of different advanced methods (GVT, my pythagorean analysis) underline a basic truth: scoring goals is good.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Lies!
Lies and slander
NEED MOAR GOALS
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Not as important.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Yeah, IIRC Awad assigns a value of 1.5 goals to 1 assist.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Kovalchuk
By most accounts, Kovalchuk is looking for a long-term, big money contract. Despite being a remarkable talent, has he really improved the teams he has been on? Compare the Devils roster without Kovalchuk to the Leafs. Or the Thrashers roster without him to the Leafs. He failed to improve either of those teams, and I would suggest both were better than the Leafs to begin with.
I am not suggesting that the Leafs couldn’t be better with Kovalchuk in the lineup, on paper it seems like a sure thing. However, to commit the kind of money he will command, over the term he’s rumoured to be looking for, I’m not sure he’s worth the risk.
To say “you give up nothing to get him” is wrong. You give up a lot of roster flexibility and cap room, assets a lot of teams would love to have right now.
Yes the roster flexibility is one thing we do legitimately give up.
But I have to ask – what else are we going to do with it? That scares me more.
Sign a bunch of middling-salary 2nd, 3rd liners like Torres and Armstrong? Burke is going to spend to the cap, I guarantee it. I’d rather it be on a talented player earning a larger portion of the cap then 2-3 guys being paid 2-3M each. Burke’s idea of a top 6/bottom 6 hasn’t been achieved yet, and we need talent to fill out that top 6.
If we had other opportunities to take on salary to improve our club, I could see this as a problem. (i.e. Giguere, Phaneuf). Assuming we sign Kulemin, after Kaberle we literally have no assets which we can trade to take on a better player.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
In 05-06, the Atlanta Thrashers had Kovalchuk, savard, Hossa and Slava Kozlov (71 points).
Their combined Sv% was .891.
Shitty goaltending can make very good offensive talent irrelevant.
Resident Capologist
Exactly.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You are absolutely right that UFAs cost in terms of cap hit and flexibility, as I pointed out in relation to middling UFAs. I guess my question is, if you don’t want Kovalchuk, who are we retaining flexibility to sign that is better? Value pick ups like Malhotra for the Sharks this year are great, but they were a contender primarily because of Boyle, Heatley, Thornton and Marleau.
I’d love to get cheap stars like the Hawks had this year with Kane, Toews and Keith, but that seems unlikely, and you don’t need much cap space if you luck into guys like that.
At the end of the day, cap/roster flexibility is a hit I’m willing to take for elite talent, not second-tier talent. This is also why I was OK with the Phaneuf deal. He’s overpaid, sure, but he can be a difference maker, a guy who plays 25 minutes, gets 50-60 points with a GVT of 20.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I look at it like this. Do you sign Kovalchuk because he’s the only elite player available this year? The fact that he has not (to date) been a difference maker on any team would make me think twice. If Kovalchuk scores 50 goals and the Leafs still miss the playoffs, was it money well spent?
its not just that Kovalchuck is the only elite player this year, its that he might be the only elite player available for 5 years, the tendency in the NHL is more and more to lock up super star talent to extended high dollar contracts instead of letting them get to free agency before they are past prime.
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, these young stars will be up soon enough, right? And there will be Patrice Bergeron, Alexander Semin, Jeff Carter, Jack Johnson possibly, Marc Staal seems unhappy in New York…all the elite guys are super young or Kovalchuk it seems, but there’s a lot of talent that has to be juggled as well.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
Follow me on Twitter!
by red army line on Jun 30, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
we also got Kessel, because how often do guys like him become available.
It seems rare that these guys pop up, but it seems like there may be 1 or 2 a year, as some very good player is disenchanted with where he’s landed for some reason. Mobility is going way down, but it’s unlikely ever to hit zero.
That said, while these guys are sometimes available they rarely ever seem cheap.
Those guys are not going to make UFA.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Yeah, I’m shocked if any of them go UFA. And the price for Kessel was a cost controlled Seguin, Jared Knight, a 2011 #1 AND $5.4MM/yr. By comparison, Kovalchuk’s a bargain even if he weren’t clearly a superior player to Kessel.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not even Bergeron? Boston will have 4 top-2 centers then.
Cидни Kросби: Александр Oвечкин, он твой папа теперь
матовая Клими, Михал нуивирт ваш папа теперь
Red Line Station: for Capitals fans who can bear reading something less intelligent than a story at Japers' Rink
Follow me on Twitter!
by red army line on Jul 1, 2010 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions
They’ll trade him first.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 1, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Fallacious statement
based I assume on this statement
Here’s the bottom line. As Mirtle pointed out in the Globe this morning, 18 of the 30 highest scorers in the league last year are locked up through at least 2013/14. 24 of 30 are still with the team that drafted them. Elite offensive talent simply does not become available very often. This is one of those times. Ilya freaking Kovalchuk is available, in his prime. Moreover, unlike Savard and Ribeiro, you give up nothing to get him.
There’s a problem with that logic. Of the top 30 scorers in the NHL this past season, 4 of them will have signed or re-signed as UNRESTRICTED free agents within the past 2 seasons if you include Kovalchuk (that’s 13% or slightly better than 1 in 8) – the other 3 are Henrik and Daniel Sedin, and Marion Gaborik.
Brad Richards’ contract expires after this season, as do the contracts of Alexander Semin and Miiko Koivu – all 3 of whom finished in the top 30 in scoring. Add in the expiring contracts for the likes of Zdeno Chara, Tim Connolly, Patrice Bergeron, Marco Sturm, Jussi Jokinen, Milan Hejduk, Scott Hannan, Jan Hejda, Niklas Lidstrom, Bryan McCabe, Tomas Kaberle, Tomas Vokoun, Justin Williams, Andrei Markov, Roman Hamrlik, Steve Sullivan, Jason Arnott, Jamie Langenbrunner, Andy Greene, Alexei Kovalev, Chris Phillips, Simon Gagne, Ville Leino, Radim Vrbata, Ed Jovanovski, Ilya Bryzgalov, Joe Thornton, David Backes, Eric Brewer, Mike Smith, J.S. Giguere, Kevin Bieksa, Sami Salo, Christian Ehrhoff, and Brooks Laich…
I’m not 100% sold on the idea that there won’t be top 30 scoring talent available at free agency next year. Thornton, Koivu, Richards, and Semin could all easily be available up front, while Lidstrom, Kaberle, McCabe, Chara, Markov, Greene, Jovanovski, Ehrhoff, and Bieksa could make a killing on the blue line. On the secondary scoring front you have the likes of Gagne, Leino, Backes, Arnott, Sullivan, Langenbrunner, Sturm, Bergeron, Jokinen, Williams, Hejduk, and Vrbata. In net you’ll see Vokoun, Giguere, Bryzgalov, and Smith looking for salary.
I really don’t think the future is as barren for free agency as the media is making it out to be. Frankly a lot of super long contracts are biting some GM’s in the ass, and I’m thinking they may realize sooner or later that it’s really NOT the best solution to lock up your talent forever. I’m pretty sure the Lightning would like out of the Lecavalier deal, while the Isles don’t really want to be stuck with Rick DiPietro’s bad knees. Do the Rangers really want to be paying Chris Drury $7 mill a year for the foreseeable future? Probably not. Add in the likes of Tim Thomas, Cristobal Huet, and Nikolai Khabibulin, and you begin to wonder if aging veteran goalies will get big money any time in the near future.
I just don’t think we’re as stuck for talent so badly that we need to get Kovalchuk THIS year as we are pretending we are.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 5, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks Steve. Always value your thoughts. I guess I have three points of disagreement. First, I am focussed on elite talent—guys who can be the #1 or 2 guy on a cup contender. Among forwards, the only ones you’ve listed above who qualify would be Thornton, Semin and Richards. The rest are all supporting players whom I was not advocating we pursue. Chris Drury does NOT meet the “elite talent” test and that was a terrible signing from the day it was made.
Second, I think you overestimate how many of these guys will hit the market. Think how many potential UFAs we have drooled about over the years who never hit the market (Sedins, Marleau, Nash, etc.)?
Third, age is a big factor for me. Where the Leafs are now, I’m not really interested in signing anyone over 30 long-term. So out of the 30 odd names you threw out, the list of elite, under 30 talents going UFA next year is one guy: Alex Semin. Odds are he won’t even get there.
With the bad contracts on our books we’d never have signed Kovalchuk anyway at $8.57MM, but I can tell you (as I’ve said elsewhere) I’d rather have a close-to-guaranteed 40 goal scorer locked up age 27-33 for $8.5MM than spend the same amount on Orr, Armstrong and Komisarek—which is exactly what we are doing.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 6, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Reading this article frightens me a bit
that the odds of Burke throwing money at a meathead are pretty good when there are almost no options on the UFA market. I don’t know what I’d do if Burke paid 2.5 mil to Manny Malhotra…
manny malhotra is married to steve nash’s sister.
true story.
But I agree, besides Kovalchuk I don’t see a whole lot of players (if any) that I want Burke to even offer a contract to.
by ShahofToronto on Jun 30, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Burke is prone to throwing too much money at meatheads. Colton Orr’s $1M contract is fine by me. As for Komisarek or Beauchemin, i think there is an important distinction to be made between meatheads and players who are tough in their own end.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Brilliant, although I still have apprehension regarding Savard’s concussion history. That being said, I am on board for Kovy.
by theothervatican on Jun 30, 2010 2:22 PM EDT reply actions
i'm the opposite
I take Savard in a New York minute. He’s an 80 point 1st line centre, with a cap hit $500K more than Jeff Finger.
He can and has produced goals with a coke machine and a bonobo monkey on his wing.
Obviously depends what we give up, player-wise, but on the ice and in $ terms i have no worries whatsoever about Savard.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
I watched a documentary on Bonobo’s they are intelligent and they are Chimps, not monkeys.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
JFJ
is none of those things
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
JFJ is probably less evolved than a bonobo.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jun 30, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
they are also
one of the only other animals that mates face to face, like we do — usually.
BCWW
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
did an all-bonobo channel start up recently?
and how do i subscribe?
by Death_By_Leafs on Jun 30, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m actually quite worried about Colorado attempting to sign Kovalchuk, and being successful. Someone please prove my fears to be irrational quickly
Don't be.
Confirmed that Avs will not offer Kovy a contract.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Great work on all this series.
Is it July 1sf yet?
Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!
by blindfolded tank driver on Jun 30, 2010 2:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
third-to-last graph
hits the nail on the head. You simply CANT overpay for mid-tier guys, something we’ve already done, multiple times.
From tomorrow on, there are two and ONLY two types of free agent signings I hear the Leafs doing that won’t piss me off.
1 — Ilya Kovalchuk
2 — Anyone else, as long as they make under $1.5M
Truth be told, I’m not even that comfortable with Ilya. It’s going to cost so much to get him, and the only way the Leafs can finagle it will be one of those loopy long term deals — which scare the crap out of me.
Brian Burke keeps swinging for the fences. Kessel was a big risk. Phaneuf was somewhat less so, but still playing for keeps.
Every time he does and misses, it makes it that much harder to unwind.
In short, I’m terrified of what’s going to happen tomorrow.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Brian Burke keeps swinging for the fences. Kessel was a big risk. Phaneuf was somewhat less so, but still playing for keeps.
Every time he does and misses, it makes it that much harder to unwind.
Risk/Reward. Would you rather us go back to picking up 2nd/3rd line talent and giving them NTCs? Signing middling players is the only thing that scares me about tomorrow.
Agree with the “Go big or Go Cheap”. It’s clear that Burke is willing to go cheap (trying to avoid JFM’s arb rights to possibly sign him cheaper, hard-balling Kulemin’s contract (so far), keeping Gus at $1.4M/year) and that he’s also willing to go big (Kessel, Phaneuf, Giguere).
If he doesn’t sign Kovy, I’m hoping he does nothing and waits for an offer to come for Kaberle.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
we agree
my point was, burke keeps trying to do “the” move that turns his franchise around. After a while they start to add up.
When you go big in poker and lose, the impulse is to get right back in and try to win it back. But usually you’re better off sitting back and trying to slowly get some cash back, or watch others bleed a bit more. Not go all in again.
I’m with you, it’s Kovy or nothing. Sadly, i’m worried neither is likely.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
At least
he is generally signing guys under the age of 30 – not signing guys who are overpaid, over termed and past their best before date.
Also, unless we get him for peanuts, I’d take a flier on Savard. ‘He scored an average of 80 points in the last 5 years’ argument is great – except for the fact that from the age of 28-33 he was in the prime of his career – also he played a few years with some guys who could score a little bit.
Also, I am not a big Kovalchuk fan, but at this point if you want to compete sooner than later you need to go big.
No overpaid top six threshold guys, thank you very much.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 30, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
multi-reply:
from the age of 28-33 he was in the prime of his career – also he played a few years with some guys who could score a little bit
hes only 32 now. and two of those guys were ilya kovalchuk and phil kessel.
When you go big in poker and lose
I agree that maybe kessel & phaneuf aren’t “the” move yet, they also aren’t losses the way you’ve defined them in your analogy.
kessel had 30 goals with nobodies & no camp + surgery. he has the capacity to reach the 40 goal mark. elite goal scorers typically hit their peaks at 23-25; dude is still 22.
phanuef is too early to call, but as long as he doesnt give games away mccabe-style, his more physical play will help the team out than an equivalent 40-pt defenceman like, say, pavel kubina.
if anything, i would rate these moves as ‘all-ins’ after the flop, where no one calls but you still walk away with a decent pot.
by Death_By_Leafs on Jun 30, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Um what?
Where did I say anything about Kessel and Phaneuf?
Dude, don’t read between the lines, there’s nothing but space there.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 30, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
you were only the first part re: savards age
the second part of the ‘multi reply’ was meant for pevans’ post above…
his was the main point i wanted to rebut and or some reason i confused the posts.
by Death_By_Leafs on Jul 1, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
2 — Anyone else, as long as they make under $1.5M
Meh, you need SOME second liners. I’m not sure you want to go entirely to a hard core stars ‘n scrubs strategy. You just don’t want too many mid range players.
For UFA signings?
I’d rather we develop our 2nd liners internally (Kulemin, Grabbo, hopefully Bozak, Stalberg)
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by nhlcheapshot on Jun 30, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
we’ve got SOME good 2nd liners. I’m not advocating for a top 6 making an average of $5M a year and bottom six making $500K.
It’s just that UFAs are in general overpaid. So why overpay for an asset we already have, i.e. “pretty good players” and guys who fill certain roles.
I’m not on the “get kovy at all costs” bandwagon, but I’d certainly agree he’s the type of player you do break the bank for. Whereas Manny Malhotra’s equivalent is available every year.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
I actually offhandedly suggested an analysis like this (GVT vs. salary efficiency) in a thread a few weeks ago so I’m quite eager to look through your analysis. How well does a player’s historical GVT predict future GVT adjusting for age (but not counting things like freak injuries)?
My motivation for this analysis was more as a baseline to find regions of GVT/salary efficiency that are undervalued by the market (a la Moneyball), and trying to build a team out of those parts. It’s quite possible that the top6/bottom6 model is inefficient in the current market (I haven’t looked at the numbers to know if this is indeed the case), especially if a lot of GMs are building this way nowadays.
Obviously the raw numbers aren’t the be-all-and-end-all but it may be interesting to see what they suggest. Thanks a lot for your work!
One of the main premises of Moneyball that seems to be forgotten is that it only worked for a few seasons under the original aim. As soon as other baseball execs looked into OBP and defence, Billy Beane gradually moved away from his initial scouting tendencies.
I’m not sure a lot of GMs are building their team in the rigid manner Burke is doing with this top-6/bottom-6. That doesn’t mean Burke’s method is right, of course, nor does it mean it isn’t inefficient. I just hope Burke gets fair value for players pushed out of their roles, rather than forcing himself into a corner because he obtained more players that fit into roles not talent.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
You know, that’s a good point. Has the ‘top 6 bottom 6’ model of building a team run it’s course?
by theothervatican on Jun 30, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the main premises of Moneyball that seems to be forgotten is that it only worked for a few seasons under the original aim. As soon as other baseball execs looked into OBP and defence, Billy Beane gradually moved away from his initial scouting tendencies.
I took the thesis of Moneyball to be “figure out what the market currently undervalues”. Obviously once people start copying you, your advantage drops on those particular valuations and those things are no longer undervalued on the market. This implies that in order to stay ahead, you need to find new inefficiencies as people catch up to you. The case of OBP and defence is merely one example where Billy Beane got ahead of the curve but my interpretation is that going forward, he needs to keep up his market analysis to stay ahead of the game.
I’m suggesting the same thing here; not looking for what is specifically undervalued now but to to develop techniques to be able to easily determine what is undervalued whenever we need to.
The case of OBP and defence is merely one example where Billy Beane got ahead of the curve but my interpretation is that going forward, he needs to keep up his market analysis to stay ahead of the game.
Right, and that’s what I gleaned from your point about Moneyball. The Blue Jays right now are experiencing a modicum of success because they focused on the longball rather than walks, bunts, and various smallball techniques. Baseball shifted so much to OBP and the like, the Blue Jays are finding to be a better team than most people anticipated.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Sorry, walks were listed amongst a list, rather than making it clear about small ball techniques. At the same token, OBP through walks is a skill that the Blue Jays are not employing as a team strategy this season, which runs counter to many other teams that practice working the count to get on base.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
There’s a lot of work to be done on predictive values, aging curves, etc. I don’t have the statistical expertise to do it but I eagerly read Behind the Net hoping to read about someone who has.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
NHL Career Curve: A study in point productivity over time.
I have no idea if it’s any good, but stumbled across it this morning whilst looking for something else…
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Yeah, I’ve seen some things like this. Very interesting. I’m also interested in much greater details by player types: how do smallish offensive defencemen age? How do power forwards age? How do checking specialists age? Maybe there is no pattern to be found but it would be nice to know for sure.
I’m just hoping that Burke has a team of statisticians working on this kind of stuff.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope so, but I doubt it…physical players breaking down was one of the (many) reasons I was so opposed to the Leafs re-signing Tucker.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Uggh. One of many post-lockout Leafs’ moves that did not require hindsight.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Burke said in an interview on the Fan590 some time ago that he has guys call him up every day offering to show him so new statistical method for evaluating players. He seemed somewhat dismissive of it.
I think the question was related to CORSI numbers that he was responding to.
If God didn't want me to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?
by The Meatriarchy on Jun 30, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
And yet he has a law degree and attends the Sloan conference. Hmmm….
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’ve heard him say he gets tonnes of systems sent to him and they go through and try to evaluate each one.
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The data used is fairly comprehensive
and it illustrates average career curves. I read that article along with most of the hockey analytics stuff when I started exploring that side of things more seriously about 5 or 6 years ago… unfortunately the amount of time needed to break it down to the level of detail being discussed here (or alternatively the programming acumen to scour historical reference information needed to cull it) has eluded me for some time.
Basically long story short, players who start their NHL careers earlier tend to peak a bit later in point production (4 years in rather than 3 typically), and they tend to play and produce for a longer period of time. If they’re in the NHL at 18, they’re developing amongst a higher level of competition, and if their game rises to the level around them, by the time they’re 22 they’re playing at a pretty damn high level.
Players who don’t make it until 24 or so, tend to peak more quickly, and at a lower level… largely because most of their key developmental years were spent against inferior competition (at least that’s how I read it).
So in summary… if a prospect isn’t at least getting regular games against NHL competition before the age of 22, his top end offensive development will be slightly less impressive. Which is why it’s so important for the Leafs to keep rotating in younger players that they’ve drafted. This is also one of the reasons that hopes are so high for the likes of Kessel, Kadri, Kulemin, Versteeg, Sweatt, and the like offensively… they’re all within their first 4 years in the NHL, and they’re all under the age of 24. There’s nowheres to go but up with them as a group.
Bozak unfortunately falls in the latter group, but the case described is a general picture, so he can diverge from the majority and increase his production still. Either way, expect his production to peak in the near term rather than longer term… he’ll likely end up where he’s supposed to offensively within a year or two… not 3 or 4.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 6, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Interesting. I always figured the guys who started later peaked lower because they probably weren’t as good. Only the very best break in when they are 18-20.
I’m aware of the general aging curve information but I think the real goldmine for someone with resources and skills to uncover it is the highly specific data I’ve referred to. General aging curves don’t tell us that much about a specific player. Some guys are basically a spent force by 30; Mats Sundin had one of his best years ever in his late 30s.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 6, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Well there's another side to this
in that there’s no reason to rely on younger talent for your bottom 6 forwards or your defensive D men… If you can get defensively astute players who develop through the college ranks, or in Europe, then by all means sign them cheap and let them do what they do best.
The thing I find funny is how the main stream media, and thus a lot of fans, feel that allowing younger players a chance to blossom into a scorers role is risky. I disagree with this idea completely.
In fact, in reference to your past point about top tier talent developing and going UFA, one thing the Leafs have lacked for years, is a mentality of letting THEIR top talent develop as their own top line talent.
If you look at the likes of Semin, Richards, Pavelski, Versteeg, Bergeron, Parise, Perry, Richards, etc… frankly they were all ALLOWED to develop within their own team’s system. I’m not talking top 5 draft picks here, and all of the above were brought in as top 6 talent, and allowed to play that role and develop into it from the get go. There wasn’t a huge amount of playing behind crappy older players.
Bergeron got the chance to play a full NHL season right out of junior after being a 45th overall draft pick and only put up 39 points. He then spent one year in the AHL and came right back and had two 70+ point seasons in a row for the Bruins.
Semin played one year with the Capitals, and only put up 22 points, then he went back to Russia for 2 seasons before coming back and scoring 38 goals and 73 points in his first season back in the NHL.
Pavelski was drafted in the 7th round, 205th overall, he played 2 years at Wisconsin before going pro to the AHL, and he only put up 28 points in his rookie year, and 40 points in year two. Then in his 3rd season he posted 59 points in 80 games before scoring 51 points in 67 games this past season.
Versteeg took some time after being drafted in the 5th round 134th overall. He spent 2 seasons in the AHL roughly, before contributing full time with the Hawks, and after two 20 goal seasons in his first two years, he looks set to be a prime time contributor.
Parise played two years at UND, then one full year in the AHL, and then only posted 32 points in an 82 game rookie season. Then in year two he posted 31 goals and 62 points playing top line minutes, and in year three he contributed 32 goals and 65 points before exploding for 94 points in 82 games two years ago as a 3rd year pro. This past year he again posted 80+ points.
Perry played 4 years for the London Knights and was drafted 28th overall. He posted a 13 goal, 25 point rookie season with the Ducks in 56 games. Year two saw him score 17 goals and 44 points in an 82 game schedule. Then in year three he posted 29 goals and 54 points. Now he’s had consecutive 70+ point seasons as one of the premiere power forwards in the NHL.
Richards scored only 34 and 32 points in his first two NHL seasons respectively, scoring only 11 and 10 goals in each. That over the course of 138 games. Two years and he produced 0.15 gpg, and 0.48 ppg. Now he’s had two seasons of 75+ points, he’s the captain of the Flyers, and most recently he scored 31 goals and 62 points this year before registering 23 points in 23 playoff games leading up to a key role in the Flyers Stanley Cup finals run.
Somehow we have these ridiculous expectations on our younger players that they SUCK if they don’t score 50 points as a rookie. And yet Kulemin (selected 2nd round 44th overall – the exact same spot Paul Stastny was selected a year earlier) posts seasons of 31 and 36 points his first two years, with 15 and 16 goals respectively in 151 games (0.21 gpg, 0.44 ppg – better goal scoring rate, slightly worse point production rate than Richards), and people anticipate him not amounting to much?
Why not LET our young players play a prime time role and grow into it? Why do we need to airlift in an $8 million dollar winger when we could develop our own? We already have Phil Kessel to fill that role, and surrounding him with our OWN developed talent is likely to be more fruitful in the long run (as far as I’m concerned).
Let the Kulemin’s, Bozak’s, Sweatt’s, D’amigo’s, Stefanovich’s etc. run with the ball and give them a shot at playing that part for the Leafs. I don’t think it’s a ridiculous idea to USE all of our scouting and development to DEVELOP a solid franchise.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 6, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You make a good point about patience; but it’s a weighted sample. For each of the examples you cite above, there are dozens of guys who don’t turn into anything special.
Still, I agree with letting our youngsters develop, even if it means playing them in a 3rd line role initially (hey, if it’s good enough for Doug Gilmour and Pavel Datsyuk, it’s good enough for Nazem Kadri as far as I’m concerned). I just think if you are going to overspend for UFAs, as Burke is determined to do, it’s better to do it for elite players, not mediocrities.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 7, 2010 6:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Who is to say that any NHL GM will pay more than $8M for Kovalchuk? If GM’s keep their sanity it could come down to location and that would give the Leafs a fighting chance. If some ass hat comes running in with $10M a year offer (I think the most an NHL team pay him is $12M based on percentage of cap), then let them have him. It’s just not worth it.
Even LA wouldnt offer that kind of money, They won;t have enough to spend on Doughty, Johnson and Simmonds……doughty could easily ask for 7 mil a year and he wouldn’t be overpaid
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on max salery for next year
11.88 to be exact – ridiculous
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jun 30, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point
Teams are already dropping out. St. Louis and Colorado are two teams that needed Kovy, had the cap space, and both have said they are not going after him.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Yeah but Burke a notorious liar.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 1, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Damn fine work, '67 Sound..
Excellent series of posts, quite a bit of research and statistical analysis. Kudos.
In Burke We Trust
Thanks. Not a controversial conclusion but I wanted to test my beliefs and assumptions.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
What does your GVT analysis tell you would be a fair number for Bobby Ryan? or Alex Tanguay?
If God didn't want me to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?
by The Meatriarchy on Jun 30, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Reply fail
4.5 for Ryan, but I think that’s one where GVT doesn’t capture his true value (or how he projects). I can’t imagine him signing for under $5MM.
Tanguay’s almost replacement level now. Whether he can rebound is a question for more detailed analysis…
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with trying to use a simple formular to calculate contract value versus performance (in this case GVT), is that the way it just so happens contract value vs. performance is more of an exponential relationship rather than the linear one you attempt to use.
To get a marginal increase in performance it’s been determined that you need to give out an ever increasing amount of money.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Roughly, extra wins = GVT / 6.
As for salaries, I think it’s something like, nowadays, $500k per win for a bottom 6 forward, a little over $1 million for a top-6 forward, and if you’re RFA (not UFA) it’s 80% of that if you’re going to go above the minimum QO dictated by the CBA. Only 60% sure on those numbers though.
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by red army line on Jun 30, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Win = GVT/6 is pretty close to what I came up with. The Leafs need another 30 points = 15 wins = 80 GVT to get where they need to be, so my estimate is 1:5.5ish. But I was working off goal differential, not points/wins.
I suppose the best system in terms of predictive value would be in terms of 5 v 5 corsi with a tie score, but then you’re into all kinds of practical problems in using it on a large scale as I have tried to do.
Different tools for a 30,000 feet view as opposed to scrutinizing the undergrowth.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, someone with better statistical skills than me needs to produce the definitive value curve. My linear calculation probably underestimates top tier guys—I suspect that’s in part because having a Nik Lidstrom or Ovechkin on your team makes everyone around them better in addition to their own stats.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed on all points. Outstanding work. Thanks for this.
Because some player nicknames just make sense.
by Sergei Puckizin on Jun 30, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
FANTASTIC.
Excellent, excellent work.
Kovalchuk’s attitude and lack of winning history trouble men, but damn, you make him sound like the final piece of the puzzle!
I think Lombardi is the Leafs guy (I also said that in a much, much less detailed post a month or two ago…). He’s got speed, skill and can play in both ends of the rink.
by TMLSiegeinVancouver on Jun 30, 2010 5:49 PM EDT reply actions
Lack of winning history is hard to pin on him when hockey is such a team game and he’s either laboured with terrible goalies or terrible teammates.
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he’s either laboured with terrible goalies or terrible teammates.
if only he came early last year, he could have done both!
he’s either laboured with terrible goalies or terrible teammates.
Go Flyers!
either terrible goalies or terrible teammates.
The cock-blocker’s credo.
he’s either laboured with terrible goalies or terrible teammates.
See also: recent events
by Death_By_Leafs on Jun 30, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
i hear he has had issues surrounding terrible labouring
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Lombardi looks good on a GVT measure, but I bet he’ll go for well above $3MM. He also played very soft minutes in Phoenix; only Robert Lang got softer minutes looking at their qualcomps and zonestarts. He also led PHX forwards in PP TOI, but was only 7th in PK TOI.
A lot of the same can be said about Kovalchuk, but Matthew Lombardi isn’t a guarantee for 40 goals.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I usually
come here for the safety of your comforting words of wisdom. But all this Kovi talk has me feeling funny. Spinny and scared.
I can pretty much guarantee I’ll curse Burke if we miss on him and feel sick to my stomach with worry if we get him.
He’s not Ovechkin, Crosby, or Toews, but guys like that will never, ever be available.
by The '67 Sound on Jun 30, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Say the Leafs get him, sure it will be awesome all the goals he scores and all
but I really can’t wait to see how sens and habs fans try to downplay his impact to the leafs
/please happen
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
ok, that alone is worth its weight in russian sniper gold. im sold.
by mick mcgeough on Jun 30, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, if Kessel’s not so great, and Kovalchuk’s not so great…whoever’s the other guy on that line must be AWESOME.
Can it before I drive this truculence through your faceulence and put you in an ambulance.
by Brunswick Bruiser on Jun 30, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Kessel is fantastic at 5v5, kovy is fantastic on the PP, now we just need someone fantastic on the PK….
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d settle for Jonas being great in those situations.
Can it before I drive this truculence through your faceulence and put you in an ambulance.
by Brunswick Bruiser on Jun 30, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
i was thinking offensively, but yes, that would be rather nice too
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Does Dave Reid have any sons playing?
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
by Chuck Diesel on Jun 30, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet he’ll kick an ass or two.
That’s what Brian Burke’ll do.
Can it before I drive this truculence through your faceulence and put you in an ambulance.
by Brunswick Bruiser on Jun 30, 2010 8:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Getting Kovalchuk in 2010 is pretty much like getting Alex Mogilny in 2001, except that Kovalchuk is 27 instead of Mogilny’s 32 and without the injury history. Kovalchuk is not one of the top all around NHL players. But he is one of the top offensive players in the world.
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but can he carry the weight of my dreams?
by mick mcgeough on Jun 30, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
he would do anything for love
but he wont do that
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jun 30, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
































