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Post-Kovalchuk Targeting

I debated whether or not to give this a fan post, because it's so clearly self-indulgent roster-baiting and I always hesitate to do the whole "armchair psychologist" thing, but since it's the offseason and I'm bored, I figured "Why not?"

First, let's look at the forwards Burke has signed or retained, and their ages: Armstrong (27), Bozak (24), Brown (25), Hanson (24), Kessel (22), Kulemin (24), Mueller (22), Versteeg (24), Sjostrom (27), Mitchell (25), Orr (28), Caputi (21), Grabovski (26), Irwin (23). Short of role-oriented third liners Armstrong and Sjostrom, and enforcer Orr, I think it's safe for us to say that Burke is aiming for people aged 25 and under. (As an aside, I think this cutoff - when combined with contract term - was a major factor in Burke's decisions not to accommodate Kovalchuk and not to court Gagne.)

Since we're talking about Kaberle on the way out, I think it's fair to assume Burke's looking for a roster player, rather than a prospect. Also, minor league player valuation is subjective enough that I don't think we could hope to guess Burke's thought process based on history alone. (Confession: I also didn't want to pull data from AHL/CHL/NCAA prospects)

There's no argument that we're looking for a goal scorer; assists be damned, we need a sniper that poses a valid secondary scoring threat. No more teams matching their one good defensive defenseman against Kessel for a whole game.  

I've decided to leave centers in as an option, since we're dealing with young players (who may be open to switching to the wing), and we could consider moving Grabovski to the wing. So we're looking at forwards who will be younger than 25 at the start of this season, have more than 0.2 ppg, more than 20 games played, and greater than 15 goals scored last season. We're going to exclude some of the big-name franchise players: Ovechkin, Kopitar, Malkin, Towes, Tavares, Stamkos, J. Staal, Duchene, Backstrom, Stasny, and Crosby. There's clearly no point in talking about any of them, and if Burke were to get any of these players, I'd probably start making stupid, Alfredsson-esque guarantees. 

That leaves us with the following list (which I tried to do as a table, but instead give you a screenshot):

2wprn_medium

via imgur.com

So a couple notes about this list. 

First of all: This is an excellent list to be on. These are bonafide players who either can be, will be, or are top six players, and they're all young enough that they should be trending upwards. And there are 3 Leafs on it (Kulemin, Kessel, Versteeg). That makes me very, very happy. (This should also reinforce the idea that these are the kinds of players Burke wants to see in his top 6 core.)

But the down side: While I think there are a lot of names on here that we could get for a package involving Kaberle, unless we meet some weird contract issues (cough Neal please cough), we're gonna have to throw in more than Kaberle for most of those players above. And for almost all of them, it's another case of "leave the untouchables, have your pick of the rest." This may not be inherently awful, though, as it would be a great chance to free up some SPCs; though we likely won't be dealing with such a cap-strapped team, remember what we gave up for Versteeg. 

I'm also happy to see just how many teams are on this list. 23 different teams - TOR not included - have someone that might fit Burke's demands. Not all are equal, but it also means that we don't have to take a raw deal; we should be able to keep the Untouchables untouchable, and Burke should have a good bit of room to play hardball. Even if we were to discount the 7 centers on the list, there are options here.

I haven't got the time right now to hunt down Corsi, QualComp, QualTeam, or even contract info for many of the individuals listed above, so please feel free to include any in discussions. On the above list, who would you want? Who would you avoid like the plague? Who got snubbed? (Also, before we get into HFBoards territory, please recognize that some of the people on that list should still be considered "untouchable"; I'd be shocked if Duchene or Tavares got traded any time soon, for example.) 

If we're looking to get a secondary scoring threat, I'm starting to think we don't think we need a lottery draft pick or 8 million dollars to do it. We just need to give up some assets and gamble a little.

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Comments

Display:

KADRI

19 (turns 20 on Oct. 6)

Wham Wham! Kabam Kabam! A Double Kabam! And It's A Double Dion!

by realcanadianbacon on Jul 20, 2010 1:55 AM EDT reply actions  

What this team needs isn’t a secondary scoring threat, it needs a primary scoring threat. I’m sorry but as much as I like him, I just don’t think we’ll ever be a legitimate contender if Phil Kessel is our best offensive player.

That said, I think it’s an excellent list you’ve developed. A guy like Brule I know was very “percentage-y” (as mc79 would put it) last year, and I’m sure there are some other stayaways on the list for similar reasons if we looked more closely. But if you eliminate Hornqvist, Neal, Ryan, Krejci, Downie, Stewart, Sutter, Tavares and Duchene as out of our price range, that’s probably not a bad look at what Burke is shooting for. Let’s hope he can get it.

by The '67 Sound on Jul 20, 2010 8:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Eh, Kessel put up 30 goals coming back from injury on a one-dimensional team. I don’t think it’s unrealistic to think that without injury, and without a team’s top defensive defenseman on his back 100% of the time, he’d be flirting with the 40 goal mark.

I mean, this year, he was on pace for a 35 goal season if he played 82. Add one goal for every year he gets closer to his prime, and we’re already sitting at 40 by the time he’s peaking at 27. I don’t think that’s bad, and I don’t think that’s outrageously optimistic.

A secondary scoring threat (somewhere in the realm of Kessel, I’m not talking about another Kulemin as “secondary scoring threat”) would be enough to either get DFDs of Kessel’s back, or would greatly benefit from Kessel hogging all the DFDs.

I just don’t think you need a guaranteed 45+ goal scorer to contend for the cup if you can get those goals as a team.

by Bower Power on Jul 20, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just think Kessel’s upside is Petr Bondra. A multiple 40+ goal scorer, but too one dimensional to be the best forward on a legitimate cup contender (that ’98 team was fluky and Oates was probably their best player).

by The '67 Sound on Jul 20, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

JAMES. NEAL.

For some combination of Kaberle / 2012 1st / James Reimer / Whatever it takes. Perhaps with something coming back to balance the deal a bit. This needs to happen. I would prefer this to Kovy’s behemoth contract.

Of course, its still a longshot (though not Bobby Ryan level, as Dallas has actually lowballed Neal and could use Kaberle/Goalie Propect).

by samspade on Jul 20, 2010 10:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Maybe Dallas would insist on Gustavsson over Reimer in that trade, considering they were in the running before Burke signed him.

by melt on Jul 20, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would say Gustavsson is probably an untouchable at this point… but maybe the Leafs are okay with giving up Rynnas?

by unavoidable on Jul 20, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way Burke trades a guy he signed a couple months ago with a ceiling like Rynnas’. If it’s a goalie prospect, it’s Reimer. Or maybe Scrivens, maybe.

by Bower Power on Jul 20, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

just curious

what is rynnas’ ceiling? does he have as much potential as gustavsson?

by potvin vs hextall on Jul 20, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 20, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hopefully

Tough to compare I guess, different leagues. It would seem he is going to get a chance to develop before seeing NHL time though, Gus was just thrown right in there.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s listed 22nd on the Goalie Guild’s Top 100 prospects and they did an analysis of him here. It’ll be a lot for me to part with Rynnas. Neal would qualify as “a lot.”

by Bower Power on Jul 20, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Other than Gus

I’d throw every single Goalie prospect we have into a potential trade, if it actually added any value. (Which I don’t think it would, much anyway)

However, I don’t think it would add much value to Dallas considering they just annointed their new golden goalie-of-the-future in Campbell.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would definitely include Gus as an untouchable

We would be losing sight of the bigger picture if we included Gus in a deal for Neal.

Besides, they just went out and used their 1st round pick on their “goaltender of the future” in Campbell.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, by “whatever it takes” I didn’t mean make ANY bad deal, i.e no Kadri.

But let’s say for argument’s sake:

Kabby, Reimer, 2012 1st for Neal (maybe a 2nd or 3rd back) = DO IT

by samspade on Jul 20, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

holy hell no

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 20, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I am fully aware its an overpayment, but if its the only way to get Neal then I look at it like this:

We need a big, talented LW (ie We need James Neal).
We need to move money from D to Offense, and turning Kabs into a top 3/6 forward isthe best way to do that.
With Rynnas & Scrivens we can sacrifice a goalie prospect
If we actually got Neal, by 2012 the pick would probably be in the 10 – 20 (or 15 -25) range.

So yeah its a lot, but I think with Neal joining our team we would have a VERY bright future.

by samspade on Jul 20, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

… so bright that the benefits outweigh that cost.

by samspade on Jul 20, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

im not worried about Reimer, I’m worried about that first thrown in the end there
two of the above, sure, all three? no way in hell
there is no way you can justify sending Kaberle, the leafs best goalie prospect AND their only 1st in three years for a player who MIGHT score 30 every year

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 20, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bingo

I’d throw in Reimer in a deal for a sweetener, but goalie prospects aren’t really worth a lot (unless they are very highly hyped).

We gotta stop giving out 1st round picks. I wish we would start acquiring more instead.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

That point is valid, and Im sure most would agree. I mentioned picks coming back, but yeah I am a little trigger happy. Really want Neal though, but that is why im not the GM.

by samspade on Jul 20, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do we all remember the draft? Dallas picked up jack Campbell, a great goalie prospect, and yes he probably takes 5 or 6 years to fully develop, they also have Lehtonen right now, who is a solid over .910% goalie on a team playing Dallas’ system. They damn sure don’t need a goalie, what Dallas needs is Tomas Kaberle, the elite puck moving d-man they’ve lacked since Zubov went back to Russia, that and to dump a little more salary, best case scenario we deal Kaberle and Gunnarsson for Neal and Trevor Daley, Worst case, we trade Kaberle and a d prospect like Blacker or Holzer for Neal and Skrastins and then dump Skrastins in the AHL and call it a day

Don't think, it hurts the team!
"Kneel before Todd!!"
Yes I find myself VERY amusing

by antrofan on Jul 20, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can think of a lot worse cases than that.

Like, Dallas says “fuck off” when we ask for any deal involving Neal. Which really it what Niewendyk should do if he knows how to run a club.

Yes they need a puckmover, but not a 32 year old one with 1 year left who probably has no intention on staying.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kaberle would be an excellent fit in Dallas and his chance of resigning anywhere that isnt Toronto isn’t exactly iron clad, hell he might decide he loves texas
saying that, however, Neal’s value is much higher than a year of Kaberle

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 20, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Neal’s value is much higher than a year of Kaberle

The key item in all of this.

Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.

by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 20, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Neal is fully expendable, Benns ceiling is as high or higher and he could use the ice time to develop, especially alongside either Richards or Ribeiro, Morrow is firmly entrenched on the team as either top line or 2nd line LW, Steve Ott and Krys Barch are decent (if unspectacular) 3rd and 4th liners, and switching him to RW doesn’t offer much help either, between Eriksson and a potentially better Brunnstrom the top two are filled, while the defence doesn’t impress me at all, Robidas was their highest scoring D with 41 points, that leaves me wondering at whether or not Kaberle’s value to the stars is very high, Given that Neals can be argued to be somewhat lower due to the heavy forward presence Dallas has. Their situation is a little bit of an inverse to ours, their depth at forward allows them to trade away a valuable piece to fill out another hole and vice-versa our defense situation.

Don't think, it hurts the team!
"Kneel before Todd!!"
Yes I find myself VERY amusing

by antrofan on Jul 23, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

The same Brunnstrom that just took a $200,000 pay cut? Fabian means NOTHING to Dallas right now.

by sodonis on Jul 24, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

A team that hitches their horse to one goalie prospect deserves to suffer. ’sup, Joey Mac?

by Bower Power on Jul 20, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why is everyone assuming

that Grabbo should be on the goddamned wing??!!!

Okay, obvious man-crush aside, what’s supporting him being moved? Have Wilson or Acton even hinted at the notion of putting him there? He’s been a centre his whole career and the entire time he’s been a Leaf. I just don’t get the plan.

Two reasons (if in fact there is a plan like this in place) to move him:
1 – Kadri
2 – Someone other than Kadri.

Plan #1 I’ve already stated I disagree with vehemently, not the least of reasons because he’s played a grand total of 1 NHL game. Plan #2 is not far-fetched, but Burke will have to have stolen a damn solid centre from somewhere else, and even in that case, no guarantee Grabbs doesn’t just end up centring the third line instead.

I just don’t follow why everyone is married to this idea. It makes zero sense to me.

Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.

by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 20, 2010 4:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Not married

But it’s not like there hasn’t been more than 1 hint by Burke and Wilson that Kadri has a decent shot at making the team out of camp.

If I could guess, I think fans believe hard in that Top 6/Bottom 6 mentality, and Grabbo clearly isn’t a bottom 6 “plugger”. So, they try to force him into the top6… and if Kadri (or some other top6 C through trade) and Bozak are there, the only remaining spots are wings.

Not agreeing, just saying where the “logic” is coming from.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know where you’re coming from, but noone in the organization has ever suggested that Grabbo should be moved to the wing, and he did play some third line C minutes with the Leafs over the last two years, if I recall.

It just repeated comes across to me like a figment of the media/fans imaginations and isn’t a plan rooted in logic anywhere within the organization.

Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.

by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 20, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stats might have something to do with it.

In his first year with over 20gp, he posted a 13% shooting percentage (only 23 shots and 11:14 ATOI). In his second year, 16.7% with 120 shots in 78 games played. Most recently, 7.9% on 126 shots at 59 games played.

The idea is that – with his shot total so sharply on the rise, but the quality apparently on the decline – he could get some better quality shots by playing on the wing and receiving passes, instead of having to focus on giving passes. Why not see if we can get 13-16% grabbo back instead of 8% grabbo? Especially if that means we can get a more pass-oriented center?

It’s just an option to keep open.

by Bower Power on Jul 20, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, so that’s a reasonable argument. The issue with having it now, is that there isn’t a more pass-oriented centre in the lineup to supplant Grabbs. See my #2 criterion above.

I like the idea, I’m just saying that arguing the point without an actual competent replacement on the roster doesn’t make any sense to me. No reason to move him to the wing just for the sake of moving him to the wing.

Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.

by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 20, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think they’ll move him to the wing until next season at the latest. He has a year to show he can improve his face-off skills. You just can’t have a top two centre at less than 50% in the circle.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Jul 28, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i was going to suggest that he should be moved because he sucks at faceoffs, but then i realized that i would be basing this conclusion off his NHL10 faceoff rating…

by potvin vs hextall on Jul 20, 2010 5:19 PM EDT reply actions  

reply fail

this is re: grabovski on the wing.

by potvin vs hextall on Jul 20, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha! Gathered that from the “sucks at faceoffs” shot. True, he isn’t great at faceoffs, so the guy coming in to replace him should be better at them. Is it Kadri? Based on his NHL career numbers, no chance. Potential? Maybe, but it’s still way too soon to tell.

Saying that, faceoff % isn’t the only need for a centre. And no one has any proof that Grabbo won’t completely shit the bed on the wing. From a psych perspective, he may be totally screwed by the move. Problem is that there’s as much evidence for it being a good move as against (zero).

Plus, Bozak has shown he can be great at faceoffs, so he should be taking the critical ones anyway.

Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.

by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 20, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

All of that being said

We really don’t have anyone on the Leafs that is great off the draw.

I miss Sundin.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

i miss sundin too.

we definitely need to give grabbo some credit — he really worked hard on improving his faceoffs. i see that he got to to 50% last year.

i don’t mind having him on the second line. the only thing i’d be nervous about would be that then you have two puck hogs (him and versteeg) on the same line. think that works?

by potvin vs hextall on Jul 20, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunno, the Wilson line-blender will be counted on a lot early in the year methinks.

I’m actually shocked that he got to 50%. I thought he was way less than that.

Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.

by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 20, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

He improved

a hell of a lot, I think that was his biggest improvement last season.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 20, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just going through my fantasy team from last year to pick my keepers for next year (thanks for bolting Nabokov!), and I still can’t believe Moulson potted 30!

I also look like a savant for having Stempniak late in the year. Not like it helped me crawl out of second last though.

Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.

by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 20, 2010 6:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Blake Wheeler?

He’s not particularly appreciated in Boston right now (or so I am led to believe), and he’s a good young goal-scorer. His numbers are a little lower than they should be, but I think that’s from playing on the offensively-challenged Bruins.

I'm thinking that when the Leafs win the Cup, I'll lose my drinking problem.

by leafsfan4life94 on Jul 22, 2010 4:29 PM EDT reply actions  

See today’s FTB, we talk about him. He might hit UFA if Bruins don’t accept his arbitration award.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 22, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wheeler’s a right winger, he’d be 2nd line at least, and only if Versteeg moved over to left wing.

Don't think, it hurts the team!
"Kneel before Todd!!"
Yes I find myself VERY amusing

by antrofan on Jul 22, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we got Wheeler, we might not have many “legit” top 6 in any sense, but they’d all be young – and playing the odds, at least 2 or 3 of:

Kulemin, Bozak, Grabbo, Versteeg, Kadri, Wheeler

could be easily become very legitimate top 6 players on any team.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Jul 22, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’d take Wheeler, for slightly more than free, no more

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Jul 22, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good Post

I like some quality rosterbaiting.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Jul 28, 2010 1:23 PM EDT reply actions  

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