What's a 6th Defenseman Anyway? - A Brett Lebda Study
by SkinnyFish on Jul 8, 2010 1:01 PM EDT
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PrintLast night, for some reason or another, Brian Burke signed defenseman Brett Lebda to a two-year deal worth $1.45M per. I'll just come out and say that I am not a fan of the signing. Had Kaberle or Finger been moved/waived first, then I'd like it a little more. Anyways, it looks like Lebda will be our 6th defenseman for the upcoming season once Kaberle and Finger are dealt with.
That then got me thinking; Lebda's contract struck me as being too much for too little (he's 5'9"), I wonder what the average contract and performance of a #6 defenseman in the NHL is like? So off to NHL.com and capgeek.com I went to scrounge up some numbers.
To determine who was a team's #6 defenseman, I compared their TOI/G and their games played for the 2009-2010 season, and then used a little judgement to determine who was in fact that team's 6th defenseman for the majority of the season. Then once I had my list of names, I plugged them into capgeek to determine their salary cap hit. If that player was under contract, I used that figure; if they had signed a new contract beginning in the 2010 season, I used that figure; if they had their contract expire this summer and have yet to sign a new contract, I used their cap hit from the previous season.
Check out the numbers and discussion after the jump.
| Player | Team | TOI/G | Pts | $$ | w/ bonus |
| Lebda | DET | 14:59 | 8 | 1.450 | |
| Brookbank | ANA | 14:57 | 9 | 0.750 | |
| Schubert | ATL | 15:46 | 7 | 0.883 | |
| Stuart | BOS | 17:01 | 7 | 1.300 | |
| Sekera | BUF | 17:26 | 11 | 1.000 | |
| Pardy | CGY | 15:51 | 9 | 0.700 | |
| Carson | CAR | 17:22 | 12 | 0.522 | |
| Barker | CHI | 13:05 | 21 | 3.083 | |
| Wilson | COL | 16:16 | 21 | 0.552 | |
| Russell | CBJ | 18:35 | 22 | 1.300 | |
| Fistric | DAL | 14:55 | 10 | 1.000 | |
| Strudwick | EDM | 16:56 | 6 | 0.725 | |
| Kulikov | FLA | 17:56 | 16 | 0.900 | 1.325 |
| Drewiskie | LAK | 15:14 | 8 | 0.617 | |
| Hnidy | MIN | 13:32 | 14 | 0.750 | |
| O'Byrne | MTL | 15:15 | 4 | 0.942 | |
| Franson | NSH | 14:11 | 21 | 0.693 | |
| Fraser | NJD | 12:22 | 6 | 0.500 | |
| Meyer | NYI | 16:46 | 15 | 0.588 | |
| Gilroy | NYR | 16:18 | 15 | 1.750 | |
| Campoli | OTT | 17:50 | 18 | 0.633 | |
| Bartulis | PHI | 13:58 | 9 | 0.600 | |
| Demers | SJS | 15:25 | 21 | 0.543 | |
| Weaver | STL | 16:57 | 10 | 0.800 | |
| Walker | TBL | 16:09 | 5 | 1.700 | |
| Schenn | TOR | 16:52 | 17 | 0.875 | 2.975 |
| O'Brien | VAN | 17:00 | 8 | 1.600 | |
| Erskine | WAS | 15:58 | 6 | 1.250 | |
| AVG | 15:53 | 12.000 | 1.000 |
|
So basically a #6 defenseman plays 15:53 minutes a game on average; scores 12 points over the course of the season; and comes with a caphit of around $1M. (Note: If you remove Cam Barker from Chicago and replace him with Jordan Hendry, the average caphit falls to $912k)
So what does that tell us about Brett Lebda and the contract he was given yesterday? Well it tells me that for a 6th defenseman, he's overpaid and under performing. In fact, per my numbers, he's now the 4th highest paid #6 defenseman in the league.
Thoughts?
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sigh
i knew where this post was going to go before i even read it.
Man, blowing $100K here and there, again and again and again is just starting to grate.
I don’t hate the signing in that its “better” than some of the other blatant overpays we’ve got on this team, but you’re right, it’s not making too much sense at the moment.
sometimes i really don’t want brian burke to ever sign a UFA again.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
This is exactly where I stand on Lebda.
Contracts that are just a little bit too big are starting to pile up, and have cost us $1.4M on our cap for next season, not to mention have inhibited our cap flexibility for the next few years.
Burke needs supervision around UFA’s.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Hmmm
Yes… if you add up 2.44% of your cap hits up roughly 41 times, you will eventually reach the cap limit. Let’s explore the math a bit more in depth shall we?
The standard deviation on the point totals is 5.7 points, that means that with an average of 12 points, 67% of the players recorded between 6.3 and 17.7 points… that’s a pretty wide spread for such a small group.
The standard deviation on the salaries is $550 K roughly. That means again, 67% of the players on that list fell between $450 K and $1.55 million. Unfortunately NONE of the D on that list made as little as $450 K, so it’s not a normal distribution, at all, it actually has a tail towards the high end.
The median on points was only 10, and the median on salary was only $837,500 – so he’s not really that far below the median value on point scoring, and his salary is high based on his cup and playoff experience.
He’s not way out of whack for the rest of the group if he lies within a single standard deviation of the mean… and let’s be honest, that group is spread pretty effing wide in both categories.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I may have been a bit delirious when I wrote that last comment.
Being camp director makes brain no function well without. Re-reading it now, I’m not even sure what I was trying to get at in that first sentence. I mean, it almost makes sense, but it’s not what I meant.
I think what I was going for was that contracts that are 500k and $1M too high are starting to pile up. A couple mil too high on Finger, 500k too high on Lebda, a mil on Armstrong, another 500k – $1M too high on Komisarek… you know the list.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Even if the Leafs have
4 contracts where they’ve overpaid by $500 K, that’s going to work out to only $2 million in wasted cap space. That’s still only 3% of the Leafs cap space. Seriously… HOW many contracts do you think we’re overpaying, and by how much?
If you think it’s in the 5 or 6 contracts range, and you think we’re over by 1 or 2 million on all of them, THEN I understand, but really? $500 K too much is piling up all over the place? that’s a huge exaggeration with not a lot of basis in fact.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Rather than overpaying (which annoys GMs in general)
for jacking up player values – which is an NHL wide issue, not just with the Leafs,
Maybe we should be bitching about just signing the wrong players period.
THAT is a bigger issue. Wasting money on the wrong player is a far bigger problem than paying one guy that might not be that bad $500 K too much.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me put it this way
if the Leafs went out and signed a player to a contract that was TWICE what he deserved … i.e. Jeff Finger… then I get the issue… but signing a player like Lebda to a deal that maybe overpays him by $500K?… or less than a 3rd of his salary? I don’t think it’s worth it, especially on such a small contract.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I gave you a decent list already:
Between Finger, Lebda, Armstrong, and Komisarek alone, we’re probably overpaying by $4M – $4.5M. If you tack on Phaneuf, Giguere, and Irwin (he’s not really overpaid, but even him being on the roster is an overcommitment of funds), you could probably find another $4M. All told, we’re looking at roughly $8M – this is not chump change.
Obviously, Giguere comes off the cap soon and won’t inhibit cap flexibility much longer, and lots of these deals were not negotiated by Burke. I think what irks me most about the Lebda signing is that I’m not very impressed by any of our UFA signings since Burke took hold. Don’t like the Komisarek deal, don’t like the Armstrong deal, don’t like the Lebda deal.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Giguere isn't really overpaid
Especially when you consider the cap savings we get out of that trade we made for him.
Finger I’ll grant you about $2 million overpaid based on what he’s delivered both this past season and the one prior. Armstrong is MAYBE $1 mill overpaid. Komisarek is probably $1 mill overpaid.
That adds up to $4.5 mill including Lebda, so I’ll agree on that much. Phaneuf is only overpaid by $1.5 million probably as a former Norris trophy finalist who is still quite young and entering his prime. As for Irwin, if he’s in the AHL he doesn’t count against the cap so he’s irrelevant and counts as a big fat 0.
So total you’re up to $6 million.
That’s 1 top end scorer we’re not paying… and last I checked there was only ONE of those available this year… unless you really want the Leafs to go out and sign Frolov… I don’t really think Kovalchuk would be right for the Leafs personally anyway… but since that’s what people want, I suppose we could assume he’s the player they’d go for.
So yes, that’s “adding up” but I don’t think Lebda is the real problem. The problem in that set would be Phaneuf, Finger, Armstrong, and Komisarek… Lebda’s is chump change.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
P.S.
Burke didn’t sign Finger or Phaneuf…. so that kind of throws out those contracts.
That leaves you with only $2.5 million of the overpayment I just went through… $2.5 million out of a total of 60 mill is only 4.2% of the Leafs cap space. So again, not to be overly blunt, what the fuck are we doing if we can’t build a decent team out of the remaining 95.8% of our cap?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
This nickel and diming
stuff is killing me frankly… I’m not going to be upset at the Leafs overpaying 3 guys by $2.5 million combined. That’s hair splitting.
The real problem is signing the WRONG guys if we don’t win… it’s not like bringing in ONE more player makes this group of players a pack of all stars if they suck.
Burke is building an entire team, they’re either a decent core, or they aren’t… an extra $2.5 mill in contracts isn’t going to make a freaking difference to that fact AT ALL.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The funny thing about 98% of our cap
Is that it’s exactly the percentage of our cap that is used up right now. In fact, we even used over 100% of our cap money last year, and managed to ice a 29th place team. How is there not a lot of over-payment going on, here?
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Take a look at the roster that started last year. How many of those players will be in blue and white on opening day 2010? That 29th place team included names like Toskala, Blake and Stajan.
Not acceptable to finish 29th with max cap, but I’ll be very surprised (and sad) if we do it again this year.
Re: Giguere, yes, I noted that:
Obviously, Giguere comes off the cap soon and won’t inhibit cap flexibility much longer, and lots of these deals were not negotiated by Burke.
I think you’re missing my main problem with the deal:
I think what irks me most about the Lebda signing is that I’m not very impressed by any of our UFA signings since Burke took hold.
This UFA thing is becoming a pattern.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Who has he brought in?
Armstrong, Lebda, Beauchemin*, Komisarek, Rynnas*, Bozak*, Hanson, Irwin, Gustavsson*, Primeau… I’m running out of names…
4 out of 10 isn’t ridiculously bad as a batting average, and we haven’t seen Armstrong or Lebda play in a Leaf uniform yet, so it’s quite possible it will be 6 out of 10. If Komisarek somehow turns it around, that would be 7 out of 10. Not saying any of that is going to happen, but all of this shit is hit and miss.
Frankly 40% is a higher production rate than the draft table is… so I’m still not horribly upset.
Look at Chicago who just won the Cup. Their recent UFAs include Huet, Campbell, Hossa, Niemi, Kopecky, Madden, and Sopel… I’d say Huet and Campbell are bigger failures than any of the Leafs signings, and Hossa may yet turn out to be a huge overspend (especially with the term). As for the rest, Niemi and Madden are the only two I really thought were integral… so 2 – 4 out of 7… that’s a slightly better 42% success rate (3 out of 7 to be nice). Is Burke really that much worse?
Plus look at Chicago’s cap problems, vs. the Leafs next year? I don’t see the horrible side you do apparently.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
looking at that list of Leafs signings, 7 of the 10 were for less than $3 million a year in cap hit. In Chicago, 3 of their 7 were for over $5 million… I still think they’re doing worse with free agency than we are.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Primeau was traded for.
I don’t think we can include players that are not currently counting against our cap, so let’s take out Rynnas and Hanson.
We’re down to 4 out of 7. All of a sudden, close to 60% of Burke’s deals don’t look great.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Well
I assume since they qualified Hanson he will be… but I’ll give you Rynnas, and I forgot the Primeau-Stralman trade… ok so
Armstrong, Lebda, Beauchemin, Komisarek, Bozak, Hanson, Irwin, and Gustavsson…
Beyond Komisarek and Irwin, I’m not sure I can agree yet that any others are horrible. Armstrong and Lebda are definitely questionable, but I think it depends on how they play… arguing about it before then is pointless. They either live up to the contract or they don’t.
We’re putting the cart before the horse. Let’s remember how Beauchemin landed in Anaheim’s lap originally… marginal player for Columbus and Montreal… suddenly he’s a top 4 D man on a Stanley Cup winner? I never expect homeruns out of free agency – I was VERY hopeful of the Sedin twins last year, and I guess I got burned then, so I’ve sort of given up on it.
Drafting + Trades really are the only things that make sense to me. Free Agency is for filler… if you’re trying to build that way, you’re screwed… which is probably why the Komisarek deal is so huge, and idiotic.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: Armstrong and Lebda: “Questionable” was exactly the word I used above.
This being the fourth UFA deal he’s made that I’m not a fan of within the span of one year makes me think he should stay away from them altogether.
Re: Beauchemin, Out of the four NHL vets Burke has signed to off-season deals, I think this is easily Burke’s best.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
You know who we forgot about?
Joey Mac.
Not that he really changes this discussion at all.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Especially
since he only played in the NHL for like 5 games. He was in the AHL for most of the year, so I really don’t think we should include his $800 K salary in the discussion.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 9, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Burke didn’t sign Finger or Phaneuf…. so that kind of throws out those contracts.
Can’t believe I forgot Finger but that he didn’t sign them does not change the fact that they are overpaid and taking away Toronto’s cap space.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 9, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Toronto's Cap Space?
Seriously… we’re upset about what, $5 or $6 million in cap space at most. That’s 10% – which I admit is a large chunk.
But compare that loss to the cap space eaten up on teams like Chicago (Cup Champs) – between Huet ($4 mill too much), Campbell ($3 mill too much), Barker ($1 mill too much), Versteeg ($500 K too much), and, Sopel ($1 mill too much), they were easily overspending between $7 and $10 mill last year.
They STILL won a stanley cup while “wasting” over a 10th of their salary cap. I’m not saying that’s the best thing to do, but obviously overspending by $6 million isn’t so debilitating that you can’t build a winning team.
Other examples include Philly – paying Briere $6.5 mill is a bit much, Hartnell isn’t worth $4.2, Gagne and Carter weren’t really worth anything close to $5 mill last year… but because they got huge value out of Giroux, Leino, Van Riemsdyk, Betts, Coburn, and their goaltending, they made the Stanley Cup Finals.
A lot of this is a combination of overpaying free agents and UNDER paying the ELC and RFA guys. It all balances out, and part of the problem is the ridiculous skewing of things towards paying older free agents.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 9, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Steve, pointing out that other teams have fucked up is no excuse for the Leafs screwing up. 10% at a minimum is what the Leafs have thrown away and that is a huge chunk of change.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 9, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The Leafs are overpaying on:
Phaneuf
Beauchemin
Komisarek
Giguere
Armstrong
Lebda
The total amount is closer to $10M which IS a significant amount of the cap.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 9, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Which
winning teams seem to manage either way. I don’t think we’re overspending more than the competition, which is really who you should be comparing them to. This whole debate seems to be occurring in a vacuum… if everyone is making the same poor decisions, the only argument that really should matter is who is making LESS of them.
In terms of teams that spend right up to the cap (and that’s only about half the league – or 15 teams), they generally overspend on a number of their deals. Some teams are ridiculously bad by that measure – NY Rangers being the most obvious example. I don’t think the Leafs are particularly worse than most of the NHL teams in their payscale range.
I may be wrong but I haven’t looked at it in depth – so I might as well right now:
Philly and Chicago, see above
Detroit – overpaying on maybe Filppula (which might be why they’re so good)
San Jose – overpaying Heatley probably, and maybe Thornton and Marleau – but they’re all potential 100 pt players so that’s debatable.
Pittsburgh – overpaying on Paul Martin, and Zibanek Michalek (UFAs from this year), and Fleury ($5 mill is too much for any goalie frankly)
Vancouver – overpaying on Kesler, Malholtra, Salo, Edler, and Luongo.
Washington – overpaying on Ovechkin, probably Semin, Mike Green, and Tom Poti
Boston – overpaying on Lucic, Ryder, Thomas, and probably Chara
Calgary – overpaying on Iginla, Langkow, Stajan, Kotalik, Bouwmeester, Regehr, Sarich, Staios, and Kiprusoff… obviously they have a problem.
Ottawa – overpaying on Spezza, Kovalev, Michalek, Fisher, Neil, Gonchar, and Leclair
NJ Devils – overpaying on Elias, Rolston, Arnott, Zubrus, Clarkson, Volchenkov, Tallinder, and Brodeur
Minnnesota – overpaying on Schultz, Barker, and Backstrom – and they have WAY too many forwards (15 of them).
Montreal – overpaying on Gomez, Cammalleri, Plekanec, Gionta, Markov, and Hamrlik
NY Rangers – overpaying on Gaborik, Drury, Boogard, Brashear, Redden, Roszival, and Lundqvist
I’d say of those teams, the best ones are only overpaying 3 or 4 guys at most, even less in the case of Detroit… the rest of them are in the same boat as the Leafs, and they’re generally relatively competitive.
I don’t think the Leafs current contract situation is what is going to prevent them from being competitive.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 9, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
A reasonably fair study
Obviously has to be taken with a grain of salt, but I think it hits the point.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Your brain must be half the size of Wendel's heart.
Obviously, that would be roughly three times the size of a normal human brain.
If my nose was full of nickels I would blow it all on you.
LEBDA PLAN PUPPETS!
Good to see some comparisons. It’s tough because 6th/7th defenceman is such a moving target but I think this is a decent framework.
It’ll be interesting to see if there’s any change with how Lebda is deployed with the Leafs. If you figure that Gunnarsson-Phaneuf becomes PP1 then does Lebda run PP2 with Beauchemin? That could add some gloss to this signing.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
PP1
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And that leaves Schenn and Komisarek to eat up the PK minutes.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather see Schenn on the PP than Lebda. Lebda’s speed is not really an asset on the PP; his apparently granite hands are a hell of a liability. There’s no indication he can do PP time. He barely averaged around .5 ppg in college.
And if you wanted a PP guy to replace Kabs, just sign MA Bergeron.
I know Detroit has a great top 4 but they didn’t give him a whiff of PP or PK time.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
As opposed to the silky sweet hands of Schenn? :p
by theothervatican on Jul 8, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, it’s just a thought based on what Poulin said about his hands. I’d prefer Schenn on PP2 as well but it’s a hunch I have.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, you’re probably right about the prediction part. I guess the Poulin connection makes me much more worried about this signing. Feels like old boy network stuff.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice job
Though I’d argue that the scoring measure for a 6th defenceman is meaningless. Lebda obviously wasn’t brought in for his scoring. Some of those 6th defencemen probably don’t get much PK or 5on5 time, and while I don’t know if that’s what Lebda is for, I’d assume he will offer something to us other than points.
The way I view this is Lebda = Finger, at less than half the salary. Finger is as good as gone now, saving us $2 mil in cap hit.
Lebda played almost all of his minutes at even strength. He was played for 4 seconds a game on the PP, and 10 seconds a game on the PK.
Sure comparing his caphit to Finger’s makes his look good; but that’s true for damn near everybody in the league. Compared to his actually peers, his contract is less than stellar.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Bingo. If KAberle and Finger and Lebda are on the team in the fall, freak out now.
Mirtle gets it:
A bit late on this but Leafs adding Lebda would seem to be the No. 5 or 6 dman they needed to facilitate getting rid of Kaberle and Finger.
This would just upgrade the signing from moronic to bad. The Leafs may not have high end D talent to rival the Wings, Flyers or Hawks, but they do clearly have depth; even without Kabs we have 5 “top 4” calibre D. If those guys average 21-22 minutes, and they should, that leaves only 10-15 very sheltered minutes for your 6D. There is just no defensible reason to pay a guy like that much more than league minimum.
A million here, a million there, pretty soon you’re talking real money.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I hadn’t seen the contact figures when I wrote that. You’re right, they’re a bit high.
Blogging on hockey at Globe on Hockey
by James Mirtle on Jul 19, 2010 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions
interesting
if you look at the teams with higher payed 6th d-men (NYR, TBL, VAN) two out of those three are terribly run franchises. Kind of puts it in perspective :(
I’d argue all three are terribly run, with Tampa hoping Stevie Y can get them out of the hole they are in.
by bradleyhutchison on Jul 8, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, with contracts that were entirely comparable to Lebda’s $650k for the last 4 years in Detroit. I just don’t get the drastic increase from $650k to $1.45M after an 8 point season, and with so many defensemen under contracts, even if this does help facilitate a Kaberle move.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Point:
From a strictly cap-centric point of view, it makes more sense to use someone who is on an ELC as our 6th defenseman. We’re not going to have enough cap room for Kovalchuks, Savards, or Ryans if we’ve over-spending on all of our bottom-six players.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
Well, it could be worse. He could have just signed Brian Campbell for $7M a season!
Lets hear from Brian Burke on this issue shall we (courtesy The Hockey News via Mike Augello):
"We wanted this player regardless (of a trade). You’re not going to get through a season without depth on D."…"The guy’s got playoff experience… & we like the way he plays. He gets around well & he’s a good player."
Burke likes him a lot. Burke also wanted Sjorstrom in the Phaneuf deal (seriously, how many of you cared a drop about him in that deal until you saw him play?). I think we have to remember that Birke and Nonis have done their homework, probably watched hours of tape on this guy and have had a scouting team give the thumbs up. They want him for a reason. Lets see what that reason is before the group face palm!!
Eh, Exelby was a salary dump and a warm body on the blue-line. Primeau is a fourth line center who didn’t make me want to cover my eyes when he was on the ice.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jul 8, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I really liked Primeau, and I kinda hope he is brought back for cheap.
by bradleyhutchison on Jul 8, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. with that praise he’s probably the third best fourth-line center in the league.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
You know it.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jul 8, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Exelby
Was not signed as a UFA but rather part of a trade to get Kubina out of here. What was wrong with Primeau? He was a decent 4th liner?
I was responding to the “They want him for a reason” line of thinking so don’t think UFA vs. trade matters.
Burke played up the value of both of them. I thought both were replacement level or worse, making significantly more than league minimum, which means they were essentially negative value players.
My point being, Burke’s far from infallible in his player evaluation so while I’ll wait to see them play, they don’t get any benefit of the doubt.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Burke is known to make high risk moves. sometimes they backfire. I don’t think the acquisition of Exelby should be defended. He didn’t turn out the way BB invisioned it when he got him. What I mean is he was negative value like 67 says. So while 67 is right about his track record not being spotless, the others are also right because you kind of do have to wait and see. I think you pretty much have to with all of his moves since they’re all high risk.
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The guy’s got playoff experience…
The Wings played Lebda for all of two games this post-season and sat him in favor of Lilja. He’s played a total of 62 playoff games, getting 10 assists total throughout; 6 of which came two years ago when they lost to Pittsburgh in the finals.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: Lebda was nothing more than a tagalong with the Wings in the playoffs.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Are you...
Seriously chuckling at 62 playoff games worth of experience? That’s a shitload of playoff games man. That would be like playing more than 8 playoff series that all go 7 games!
How many playoff games did he play when Detroit won the cup in ’08?
19 out of the 22 games Detroit played, while logging less minutes than zombie Chelios; nearly all of which were at even strength.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Ok, so he played almost the entire playoffs on the best team in the league that year.
That’s pretty good.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying this guy is here to save the franchise, but he seems to play well enough to get ice time on teams that have been vastly superior to ours.
Question: If Burke was paying him $1M a year would anybody care?
I guess while Beauchemin and Giguere are telling the important players what the playoffs are like someone has to tell the scrubs what to expect.
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by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Was it not Fletcher who wanted Sjostrom in the deal?
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
that’s what I remember, too
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jul 8, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Augello is the first guy I thought would pan this move.
Your last thought is similar to what I had: they might envision a bigger role for Lebda than we are anticipating.
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by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That would make signing him cheap look like a genius move.
Pay what the market bears not what you think he’ll slot into.
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I honestly cannot believe that Brett Lebda is creating this much concern amongst Leaf fans.
For the record, Exelby had more or less the same cap hit and he wasn’t even the Leafs #6 defenseman for much of the year. I don’t recall Exelby causing this much of an uproar.
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That’s because when we traded Kubina for Exelby+, we gained over $3.5M in capspace and used it to sign players who were actually good.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Yes, those actually good players that were patrolling the blueline, let me recount how great they were throughout the season…
Beauchemin was indeed good. Komisarek never played in front of competent goaltending before his injury.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
This is revisionist history. Beauch and Komi were both terrible through the first half, and while Beauchemin settled down when paired with an admittedly good player in Phaneuf and Komi gets a pass because of his injury, both will need to make pretty major strides forward to justify their salaries next year.
To be fair, most history is revisionist history.
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Jul 8, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely. And I get it, there were positives in certain players games that, if extrapolated out to a full season, look pretty good. But we can’t pick and choose our microcosms, what matters is a full season and if we take the whole thing into account then Beauchemin in particular looks fairly poor. Komisarek had a good run to round out his season, but so did Stempniak.
Either way, labelling either signing/player as justified or good at this point is extremely premature. The team was the second worst in the league, and while there are some pretty obvious scapegoats it doesn’t make everyone else’s poor showing go away.
and we knew we were gonna be bad when he was signed… we had a real chance this year to turn things around and burke fudged it all up.
Kool as KuKumbers Kulemin.... I don't believe in C's, but I do believe in Semin 2011.
Wait, Burke fudged the upcoming season up? What place do we finish? Who wins the cup, pesianator? Please help; I’d like to make some bets if you’re sure about this one.
i believe if we had made some right moves during this offseason we all wouldve had a much more positive outlook on the future. with More depth players added to this team and not addressing our real issue (top six forwards) AND handcuffing ourselves by now being right up against the cap, the future doesnt looks so embracing anymore.
Kool as KuKumbers Kulemin.... I don't believe in C's, but I do believe in Semin 2011.
We haven’t even moved our biggest asset yet. It just seems silly to say “we had a real chance this year to turn things around and burke fudged it all up,” when we haven’t even seen our opening day roster.
not at all, these moves were silly. We now have to move our biggest asset, instead of maybe keeping our “biggest asset” and signing a player to fill our real void. Hell we didnt even need to get another top six forward this year but at least keep the cap space open for the future.
What I do know is that Armstrong and Lebda is going to be on our roster when they didn’t need to be. That is silly.
Kool as KuKumbers Kulemin.... I don't believe in C's, but I do believe in Semin 2011.
We are/were not going to keep Kaberle. We have always “had” to move our biggest asset [Kabby]. The only reason we didn’t have to move him earlier was because our trading partners weren’t looking to change their back end (Boston, Calgary).
This team needs to get younger and needs to get more talented. We can’t sit around and wade through crappy free agency after crappy free agency just to hope that we could hold on to Kaberle and give up only cash.
Lebda and Armstrong do fill voids on this team. Kabby was always going to be out, and we were always going to need to replace him. We’ve needed a 3rd line LW. The question is just about value and cap hit, and, while they’re not pretty, they’re just not “throw-in-the-towel” bad, nor are they “this season is blown” bad. Not by any stretch of the imagination. A solid second line left (or right) winger makes this team very good on paper. “Young,” “skilled,” and “deep” are good terms for a hockey club. They’re not synonymous with “doesn’t try,” “washed up,” “a terrible excuse for a hockey player,” or “Vesa Toskala.” But I repeat myself.
I like Kabby. A lot. I hope he scores many, many points next year. But I hope our return on him is exactly what fills this team’s need. Until we see who is supposed to fill 2nd W slot, there really shouldn’t be any discussion about what place this team will finish.
"Young," "skilled," and "deep" are good terms for ahockey clubprostitute.
Fixed.
by JoshuaDPreston on Jul 8, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
We’ve needed a 3rd line LW
That’s what we were saying all season. “Man if these third liners were better we’d be in great shape.”
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Freaking Stalberg, Hanson, and Primeau were weighing us down.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
You know what kind of teams need third liners? Teams that are stacked in their top six.
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This
Didn’t Burke once say something like “You get depth by bringing in guys at the top and pushing everybody else down”? Or did I hallucinate that? Anyway, it summarizes my philosophy.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If that’s the case that kind of goes against the top-six/bottom-six mentality, because supposedly in that system you can’t really push a 2nd line guy down to the 3rd line.
Off topic I know, but the T6/b6 thing to me is bull. You want all your players to be fast, strong and have a scoring touch. Obviously some guys are going to have a bit more of one than the other, but the more skill you have all the way through, the better. Good example of that is Dave Bolland, who was the third C for the Hawks. He can dangle, great player and defensively aware. So that’s what I wouldn’t mind seeing. Grabovski as the third line centre, Armstrong has to be 3 for sure. If you can get Versteeg down to 3, then, well, I guess then you are the Blackhawks…
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 8, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
T6 / B6 is a fine model. It’s not the only model, but it’s a fine if you can execute it. Case in point the Ducks 2006-2008.
For sure, but it doesn’t work with the idea of pushing people down because you have a barrier between 2/3. So you end up with 2nd line guys with nothing to do. It’s good for the bottom six though, as pushing them to the press box seems like less of a waste, because they tend to be cheaper. But top six guys are more expensive, so if one is the odd-man out, you have to trade him, and then you’re lacking in depth, basically.
That’s why I’d rather have the top three lines be fluid, and maybe your fourth line is a specialty checking line. But still skilled.
Actually if I start coaching kids hockey I’m going to make sure all the kids can play all the positions. I think at a young age you want to teach a general skill, not specificity. So instead of kids getting stuck on D because they are bigger, everyone learns everything, plays everywhere. They probably do that in some places already.
Sorry I’m all over the place with my comments today.
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 8, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure it does, but in two segments. You insert a high end player on the first line, which bumps somebody down to the second line and then somebody from the second line gets bumped off the roster. You can do the same for lines 3/4.
by Screaming Will on Jul 9, 2010 6:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Which is kind of what you said in your first paragraph. Maybe next time I’ll read AND comprehend.
by Screaming Will on Jul 9, 2010 6:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I meant it more as in “We’ve needed a warm body to fill the 3rd line roster slot”, which in no way means we need a 3M body to fill it, but it was a role that had to be either brought in from the cupboards (800k min), traded for (??) or UFA’d.
Which means we’ve lost 2.2M tops on Armstrong, which – on principal I agree, is very bad – and which could’ve gone elsewhere. But before I see what we start the season with, I just can’t agree with any “our season is ruined” philosophy.
Oh totally.
I mean, never mind the fact our team has two No. 2 centres, and three top-six calibre wingers in Kessel, Kulemin and Versteeg. Let’s bolster that bottom six first!
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by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s like that old motivational speaking cliche where they put big rocks in a cup and ask if it’s full. Then smaller rocks, and smaller rocks, then sand, and then water. Start with the big things first, then worry about the little things; it’s the only way to become completely full/happy.
Instead Burke is filling up the Leafs’ cup with small rocks and sand first, when he should instead be focused on getting that big rock or two in before there’s no more room.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
I agree that okay we mayy have needed to fill out those spots and thats if kaberle gets moved, Burke has said (although I never take what he says to heart) he is willing to extend kaberle since he actually is quite good. But these are things that winning teams should focus on not a team that came in 29th the previous year. Its just all about the cap space we don’t have any so now we are stuck with the fact that any player we get from kaberle has to make his salary or less, unless more unloading is done. I’m pretty sure we need a first line lw not a second. These guys are expensive and hard to come by.
I am not saying the season is over and that we are going to suck forever, I just thought our future looked brighter before free agency than it does now, thats all.
Kool as KuKumbers Kulemin.... I don't believe in C's, but I do believe in Semin 2011.
Like SkinnyFish (Birky? Can’t remember proper attribution), with Kabby gone alone, any winger we get could make up to 5.4M and we’ll still be fine on the cap. Any winger making 4M+ will be providing exactly the scoring depth I’d like.
If they’re available. I don’t see teams chomping at the bit for Kaberle.
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I’m inclined to believe that if Burke did have an offer on the table, he wouldn’t accept it until at least after Kovalchuk signs. I don’t know why – maybe more of the “spotlight” fetish of his – but I just can’t believe that he doesn’t have a reasonable offer now that Gonchar, Kubina, and Hamhius have been signed. I also wouldn’t be surprised if they were just bickering over the Sjoestroms of the deal.
This is a completely unsubstantiated thought and may be infected with more hope than logic, but it just wouldn’t surprise me.
Well, it’s not certain yet.
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by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t recall Exelby causing this much of an uproar? I wish I lived in that bubble.
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by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
we didn’t talk about Exelby in relation to his cap hit, but to his total inability to play hockey.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jul 8, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Once the season started, anyway. Most of the conversation on the acquiring of Exelby was “well he’s under 30 and Burke said he liked him, we trust in Burke so… plus Atlanta fans seem to like him… even though they admit he couldn’t really play hockey… well hopefully he’ll hit a bunch of dudes and not be a black hole”
Once he suited up, anger. I’m still pretty offended that he continued to play games as a Leaf after he demanded a trade publicly.
I think this with the Armstrong salary has ruffled some feathers.
I do think Armstrong’s salary is quite high, but if you want these guys and other teams want them, this is what you pay. I know Pittsburgh were in on Armstrong. Pretty tough to get a deal on a player when Sidney Crosby and co. come a knocking.
It’s not like Burke sets these prices. When he really wants a player he seems willing to pay.
When he really wants a player he seems willing to pay.
I hope he doesn’t like anymore 4th liners.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Fair enough. But then again 3rd and 4th liners are pretty important. I think sometimes people discount these guys as warm bodies to eat the clock until the stars get back out – throw any 20 year old AHL kid in there and spend your money elsewhere. Then you look at teams who went out early in the playoffs and it was their lack of supporting cast that did most of them in.
If the least talented defenceman you’re going to face when you play the Leafs is a guy who actually made Detroit’s defence core for the last 4 years, that’s a good thing. We’re talking about one of the best blue lines in hockey guys. We have their 6th d-man as our 6th d-man.
This has GOT to be good!!
Or...
I’m just ridiculously optimistic today.
I’m going with this one. Jonathan Ericsson was their 5th defenseman and he’s not as good as Schenn or Gunarsson.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
You want optimistic
Maybe Finger is really a #4 defenseman in the NHL but the Leafs defense is just too good for him to be any better than #7/8.
Then again, maybe not.
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by HockeyAnalysis on Jul 8, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You want delusional?
Vesa Toskala is actually too fast for the human eye. He already made the save 4 times before the goal went in but it didn’t register in anyone’s brain. He gave up trying to explain and now just counts his money. But in reality he’s actually beaten up Neo while making saves on Ovechkin. You just couldn’t see it.
October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin
I’m of the opinion that if you’re going to spend money in free agency, you should spend it on top tier talent. You can find cheaper 3rd line wingers and 3rd pairing D through trades than on the open market.
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
yes yes yes
You will have to overpay at some point in building your roster—since we have no high picks we need to overpay to get premium talent; don’t blow your “overpayment” budget on depth/crap!
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Chris Higgins got waaay too much $$$ for my taste
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
Guys, guys...
You’re forgetting the important thing here.
The Canucks have a more overpaid and useless No. 6 guy than we do! :D
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Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
True, but he’s 6" taller and that has to be worth $150k no?
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
It all means nil
When you compile about 50 PIM in stupid penalties.
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by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
If this is an attempt to say “someone else wanted him so we overpaid” we should have let him go.
I would have been ok with this signing at 850K.
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No idea, but I can’t imagine that Burke was playing the role of Odysseus and beating back suitors for Lebda.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Those cup rings attract gms and convince them to spend stupid amounts of money.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
At least we wont be paying our 7th defenseman $3.5M, right?
That makes it better, right?
http://bluechipprospects.blogspot.com
If a few good teams were looking at this guy than that would say something. GM’s are always looking to uncover gems. Players who if given the chance to play might punch far above their weight as far as salary. But why not just look at arguably the best NHL team in the last 20 years, Detroit.
They resigned this guy to a four year deal in 2006. They committed long-term to this guy and used him. Last season Ledba was 13th in TOI/G for Detroit, 6th amongst defenceman. He never touched the PP. Will he get 2nd unit minutes in Toronto? Maybe, because I can tell you thin, despite the love affair from Leaf fans with Schenn and Gunnarson and even Beauchemin, our PP fucking sucked last year. So say those players are superior all you like but if Lebda finds any success on the PP in camp Schenn will be riding pine during the man advantage.
Maybe. I doubt Lebda will get any PP time because his primary offensive weapon is his speed (an attribute which is nearly useless for defensemen on a PP).
Whether he sees time on the powerplay or not, whatever production would get there could be as likely mirrored by Schenn, and I would presume surpassed by Gunarsson or Beauchemin.
http://bluechipprospects.blogspot.com
Looking at the top teams proves they invest all their cap in their Top 4 and have cheap crap/kids otherwise. We are doing the opposite.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh…as a forward? Small fast defensemen do not belong on the PK. Even if their positional play is excellent; big D men on PKs clear the net.
Also, between Phaneuf, Komisarek, Schenn, and Beauchemin, I think our PK is pretty fkin set on the back end. Brown and Sjoey mean that the only questionable PK slots (on a healthy team) should be the centers, Mitchell and likely Hanson. I like that for a PK squad. I like it a lot.
Sjostrom-Hanson-Versteeg
Armstrong-Mitchell-Brown
Phaneuf-Komi
Schenn-Beauch
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by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
The heat is melting my brain today….
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Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
My bad...
Sjostrom, Hanson, Versteeg, Mitchell would be my four choices, then.
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Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
1st
Sjostrom, Brown
Komisarek, Schenn
2nd
Mitchell, Caputi
Beauchemin, Phaneuf
Switch Schenn and Phaneuf as needed based on who just had a shift.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
I like the idea of Versteeg, though
Since he’s a two-way guy and I think our PK having some teeth can only be a good thing. Look at what guys like Jordan Staal in Pittsburgh are doing on the kill.
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by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Versteeg is going to be the 2nd line RW on the Leafs. Playing him on the PK would be a waste of his minutes. He played the PK in Chicago because he was behind Kane and Hossa in the depth chart and had to get minutes somewhere.
Staal is on Pitts PK because he’s behind Crosby and Malkin, and is being wasted there on the third line.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Hm, I see your point
But, I still would sub out Brown, and put Armstrong in, instead. At the very least bump Brown down to No. 2 to make room for Armstrong.
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by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
But Kane and Toews played PK, too. It’s not going to cut into his minutes. Those are extra minutes good players play.
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 8, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there any evidence Brown is good on the PK?
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe his advanced stats said he had some jacked up QualComp numbers and comical QualTeam stats.
Yeah, his Corsi relative to QCOMP is off the charts; 8th in the league. Which means that against ridiculously hard opposition he gives up next to no shots.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Came cheap: move deemed acceptable.
No need for stats.
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I'm fine with this approach
Just, you know, looking at the hockey angle for a change.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm...
I dunno. Maybe Lebda could crack the 2nd PP unit, but I like Phaneuf/Gunnarsson as a potential 1st PP pairing.
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by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
A thought
Lebda’s age means he’s pretty much at the peak of his abilities, which also means that right now he is looking for the contract of his career. If you are a 29 year old depth d-man, you may never get another NHL contract, so you need to maximize money and/or term. So, im thinking the reason Burke gave him that big pay-day is so that he would sign a 2 year deal.
Burke and (capologist) Nonis may have just chosen to sacrifice short-term cap flexibility for long-term cap flexibility. And im totally cool with that.
Cap flexibility is nice if you have a ton of young guys who will be earning huge contracts.
We have Kessel who’s locked up for four more years.
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We shouldn’t be bending over backwards for this sake of his wants and needs. If we can’t reach a reasonable contract, he walks, plain and simple. I don’t care if you’re Lebda, or Kovalchuk, or Crosby – this is a hard cap world and there is such a thing as “too damn much.” I’m not sure this is that “too damn much” for Lebda, but spending 1.5M on anything less than a 5th D-man is bad on principal.
I think the idea is if you can squeeze less important guys’ contracts you can overspend on high end talent.
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No, I’d rather have neither. Anything beyond a one year deal is a bad idea given the cheap young D we have in the pipe.
And we could have got just as good or better a player for cheaper if we just waited.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Anything beyond a one year deal is a bad idea given the cheap young D we have in the pipe
It would appear Burke et al. don’t believe they’ll be ready in the next year or two, and this allows them to develop more in the AHL than the NHL, which I’m all for. The last thing I want is a developing prospect as our #7.
Like Gunnar?
There is no team in a cap world that can afford not to have developing kids in the NHL. Look at Hjammar with the Hawks.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Umm
the Hawks can’t afford him… so I’m not sure he’s a good example.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
In fact
it could be argued that they’d have been further ahead NOT bringing him into the NHL until they had the cap space to keep him. Bringing him up and playing him regularly on a cup winning team only increased his likely salary demands, and they have no cap space as it is.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s where I think we need to step back a little and look at the big picture.
We’ve basically identified the two factors that we collectively agree are most important to creating a strong roster in a salary cap world
1) Groom young talent as long as possible for as cheap as possible, thus giving them the development time to mature into effective NHL players that can outperform their contracts
2) To help achieve number 1, find cheap, effective role players to maintain depth to keep the kids in the minors until they’re ready.
I guess my question is at what point do we have to sacrifice our ability to achieve one of these goals in favour of the other? The Lebda signing is a perfect example; if we don’t sign him to be our depth defenceman, does that mean that somebody like Aulie or Holzer plays 10 minutes a night with the Leafs?
Would that player be better served playing 20 a night with the Marlies? If the answer is yes, then isn’t paying Lebda a little more than his market value worth a minor reduction in salary cap space? The long-term benefits of hopefully being successful with Aulie, Holzer et al’s development outweighs the short-term benefit of having an extra $300K in salary cap space.
just food for thought
Resident Capologist
Would that player be better served playing 20 a night with the Marlies? If the answer is yes, then isn’t paying Lebda a little more than his market value worth a minor reduction in salary cap space?
This I agree with, and why I was originally pretty okay with the signing (until I saw the cap hit). I think Ken Holland said it best with his Red Wings… “We don’t develop talent at the NHL level”. I’d love to see more of that from the Leafs.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
I agree for the most part except for one: anyone on an ELC playing in the AHL is already burning off a year of their deal. Is an unpolished young player like Aulie or Holzer a better value at 800k than a veteran player like Lebda at 1.45 million?
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
YES
And Holzer is more like $550K. Mikus too (4 years now playing with men).
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
For a more equivelent comparison, how about Nathan Paestch? He’d be making 850k$ and is the same age and approximate games played.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Depends what their potential is. If Aulie is going to be a top 4 D, maybe it’s better to have start the year playing top 4 minutes in the AHL.
Resident Capologist
Bit if they spend more time in the A, they will have less leverage for their second contract and so it will be cheaper to sign them. Assuming roughly equal starting point, a 4-year NHL guy can ask for more than a 2- year guy. And it’s probably a better idea to keep d-men down longer.
I dig the Burke quote. You can’t have too many defencemen.
I would like to see this analysis for each defence slot. And I’d also like to suggest maybe Lebda is 5 not 6. Gunnar would be 6, base on salary, wouldn’t he? Even if G is 5, then we’d at least have a super efficient 5 man to make up for over-payment on 6, right?
Call me Kermit, I support The Muppet’s optimism on this one.
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 8, 2010 5:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We’re not developing elite talent prospects. None of our prospects save Kadri have any hope of being big dollar impact players.
Rationalizing bad UFA signings to say that we’re keeping cap space open in the future is nonsense.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I’m talking more about the defencemen. You are right, I can’t think of any forwards save Kadri that fit into what I was suggesting. But for Aulie and the Euros, it’ll probably get us a 4-year deal under a mil on the second contract, whereas if they start playing, then they’ll get what Gunnar will get next year which is likely $1.5-2M.
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 8, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Let’s let Aulie play a single NHL game before we worry about 2013 cap flexibility.
I’d let an awful lot of our prospects walk to have a 40 goal scorer on the team.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I don’t think the problem is that Burke is hamstringing himself from getting a 40-goal scorer with these signings. The problem is that he doesn’t seem to want a 40-goal scorer (other than Phil Kessel, I mean).
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 8, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Groom young talent as long as possible for as cheap as possible, thus giving them the development time to mature into effective NHL players that can outperform their contracts
Since when is this a proven fact? Seems to me successful teams in recent years have been full of guys with very little or no AHL experience.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said this was a proven fact.
But we’ve identifed these as our two goals under the cap. And that goal could mean additional time in the CHL, NCAA, Europe. Obviously certain players have the capability to jump right in. Others don’t. It needs to be a case-by-case basis.
Resident Capologist
Fair enough. A lot of people have articulated that position, I’m just not sure if it’s right.
It needs to be a case-by-case basis.
This is clearly correct. I just fear that by locking up all these guys to multi-year deals we limit our ability to do it case-by-case. There is currently no room for any of the kids for two years unless we trade one of our D-men, the only three of whom would return any real assets (Dion, Gunnar and Schenn) I am not particularly keen to trade.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Finger, Beauchemin and Lebda all have 2 years left. Move them as needed to create room for the Aulies and Holzers
Resident Capologist
“Fingers” crossed that we can trade them/MLSE will let Burke demote them.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
But I think that those players on those teams have played a lot of minutes right from the start – if you have really young guys at your 6/7 D position, they aren’t really going to get that many minutes, and therefore will probably not develop as well
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
Right
maybe the key to this is that Burke isn’t attempting to mazimize our cap for next year, he’s trying to maximize our cap space for 2 years down the road. That would mean we’re mad at him for failing to do something he isn’t even trying to do.
Really?
Who are these mystical teams with no AHL experience?
Chicago? Toews played 2 years in the NCAA before going pro – but he was drafted 3rd overall. Kane also went pro right away but he was drafted 1st overall. Seabrook went pro right away,
Keith played 2 AHL seasons; Sharp played 2 NCAA seasons, and parts of 3 AHL seasons before going NHL full time with the Flyers; Marian Hossa went to the NHL with Ottawa full time in 1998-99… they were basically an AHL team at that point; Versteeg had 2 AHL seasons before going NHL full time; Brouwer had 2 full AHL seasons before he was a full time Hawk; Ladd had a half AHL season, but he went pro with the Hurricanes and was selected 4th overall; Brian Campbell played the majority of 3 seasons in the AHL; Dustin Byfuglien played 2 years in the AHL; John Madden played a full 4 years in the NCAA and another 2 in the AHL before going NHL full time with New Jersey…
I’d say 3 guys out of your 12 scorers isn’t exactly ridiculous.
The Leafs currently have the likes of Schenn, Kessel, Kulemin, and Phaneuf amongst their group of NON AHL players… that’s more than Chicago seemed to have. Bozak played less than 1 full season in the AHL. Kadri may do the same.
I guess I’m not sure this assessment makes a lot of sense with respect to top end teams, OR the Leafs.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Jul 8, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well this makes sense (signing a depth guy from UFA pool). It would also appear that Leaf brass doesn’t think any of those kids are ready. Then again probably nobody saw Gunnarson coming, but isn’t he a bit older than that crop of young blueliners?
His profile before last season was very, very similar to Mikus or Holzer now.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Concerning Wendy Whiners
Give it a rest.
The guy can skate, block shots, and gives great first pass from what I read. Most 6th D in the league are pylons. At the #6 slot he is a bargain. His skill set compares with that of Ian White. How many of us would take White back in a heartbeat?
Or do you want to keep Kaberle at 4.2 or Finger at 3.5 as your 6th man? Or throw one of the kids under the bus instead of seasoning in the A?
And this guy is way underpaid compared to guys like Hal Gill, who belongs in the Pylon Hall of Fame.
Please find me one Wings fan who thinks this guy is any good.
And please, everyone, give the “Wendy Whiners”, “Waaaambulance” stuff a rest. Just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I’m a whiner. It just means I disagree with you.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
PPP: Where Brett Lebda is the most controversial topic in history.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Second only to the decision not to sign Joel Champagne, soon to be undrafted ex-QMJHL player.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I came to peace with that one as soon as he didn’t get drafted the 2nd time.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
At the #6 slot he is a bargain.
At the #6 slot, 1.5M is never a bargain. That’s what this post is pointing out.
He’s not as good as White, and I believe he’s older than white. Hal Gill is a #1 defenseman, who has been relied on far too heavily during his time with the Habs. Pronger-style play difficulty (and minutes) really only work…for Pronger.
And to answer your “or do you want,” I’d rather sign a depth D man for cheap. Or let one of the kids see if they’re ready. Or not overpay for a defenseman.
Also keep in mind that this year there’s been quite a rediculous run on defensemen, as it seems that teams are finally starting to realize that having defensemen that defend is helpful. (Yes, you, penguins.)
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Kaberle’s not being traded, they’re going to put him on the other wing with Kessel and Bozak! PROBLEM SOLVED.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Or...keep Kaberle on D
KULEMIN-KADRI-KESSEL
KABERLE-KOMISAREK
I call this starting lineup ‘the Roy Halladay’.
Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
You think they’ll all leave town after suffering through crummy teammates because of poor managerial decisions?
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I was referring more to the K's, but....
….now that you mention it, I’m sitting in the corner, rocking back and forth in the fetal position. Thanks.
Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that the same Hall Gill who shut down Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin in the playoffs this year?
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
So, he’s a pylon that shut down the top 2 centers in the world. OK.
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
Halak was good because his crease was ALWAYS cleared. I watched Sportscenter’s save montage of Halak – he had some great reflexes, but he always had a line of sight on that puck. A big winger who could at least partially screen Halak effectively would’ve meant goals in the net. Bad coaching call from excessively rush-based teams.
Washington and Pittsburgh played way too soft against the Habs, combined with some brutal defensive play / goaltending (im looking at you MAF). Philly did what they had to do (cover Cammy & Gionta, push Habs around).
At least during Ottawa’s run they were a legitimately strong Eastern team that tried to win.
Nothing about either series backs up the fact that they played soft against Montreal.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
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by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
They didnt get in Halak’s damn Slovakian face nearly enough. They generally let Cammy and Gionta do their thing unmolested.
You beat a trap by smashing into things as hard as possible.
You beat a hot goalie by getting someone to (figuratively) tea-bag him.
Pitt did this better, but not nearly enough. Too often they took their feet off the gas and sat back (which they got away with in 09, and which Team Canada did too often in the olympics). They also had some pretty weak ass goaltending, as well as from Geno.
Also...
Don’t forget Gill used to play for Pittsburgh. I’m not saying it’s the only reason, but perhaps the familiarity of former teammates allowed him to have an advantage on knowing what they would do just enough to shut them down.
Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Gill was fine on the Leafs. We didn’t play a very good defensive scheme and he had trade value.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
He’s also like 8 feet tall and can beat up everyone’s dad.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jul 8, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, I read your book. You even signed it for me “Dear PPP, Don’t be a Wendy Whiner. Take whatever you are given with a smile!”
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
To paraphrase John A MacDonald…“Yes, I may be wrong, and yes you are a Wendy Whiner, however at least tomorrow I may be right, whereas you….”
use reply please -----------------------------------^^^^
Also, antogonizing other posters isn’t really the best use of anyone’s time.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
True.
Best Use Of Anyone’s Time:
1. Drinking.
2. Drinking Heavily.
3. insulting Other Posters.
4. Hey Jared! YOUR MAMA!
5. NYT’s Crosswords.
by not norm ullman on Jul 8, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunatly for the penguins, said Hal Pylon was placed on Crosby’s helmet at all times.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
It’s actually Churchill. I’d like to hurl an ad hominen epithet back at you here but I’ll refrain. I think the facts speak for themselves.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
nah, just kidding.
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
but seriously, you should probably leave
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
ouch dude, ouch.
And thus marks the timely demise of Colt 45.
by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 8, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
We need another 1000 comment post to discuss the implications of this realization.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
It means that Schenn is gone. Losing Schenn is a very, very, very bad idea.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
No, Schenn is there. He’s the defacto #6 guy now that Lebda has secured 5th D-man status due to his salary.
And thus marks the timely demise of Colt 45.
by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 8, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Get on it.
And thus marks the timely demise of Colt 45.
by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 8, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
At least Burke doesn’t overpay too much, especially on players that lack work ethic and playing effort (I’m looking at you Colangelo!). I’d like the signing if he was paid around $700 K.
I think everyone would be okay if he was payed 700k. The fact that he got twice of what he is worth is what Burke screwed up on.
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
by LeafFan1989 on Jul 8, 2010 2:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ding ding ding
No problem with the player at all. Classic depth defenseman.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
It’s best not to think about it.
Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
Happy to see needed Changes.
Regardless of what most people think and have shown in recent posts. I am happy to see the changes Burke has made. He has taken a team that was old, lacked any enthusiasm or commitment, let alone the desire to actually perform. We now have one of the youngest teams around with majority of players with some desire. I think we have to give Burke the some time and stop scrutinizing every single deal.
Yes; there is a long way to go, but it is several steps in the right direction.
As for Lebda; he played behind two of the best Dmen that logged serious ice time, this accounts for any apparent lack of ice time. If his addition means fingers departure, any price is good and pretty much balances Fingers overpayment from JFJ.
by An Interested Fan on Jul 8, 2010 3:50 PM EDT reply actions
Finger was uncle Cliffy’s fault.
You mess with the bull young man, you'll get the horns - Principal Richard Vernon
by Biff Carrington on Jul 8, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess you could use the Finger/Sauer excuse then...
Maybe Burke can’t tell the difference between Lebda and Lilja?
Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
stop scrutinizing every single deal.
“come on guys, JFJ clearly knows what he’s doing!”
Look, the “let’s not discuss things” crowd is free to not discuss things but piping in to suggest nothing more than that we should just smile and nod isn’t constructive.
You’re right in that Burke has made a tonne of changes. This is his year to show what he’s begun to build.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
agree
Let me just comment here to say that comments are not productive. See, how productive was this comment? Exactly!
What are we supposed to talk about? David Johnston? The heat?
by Leaf in Habland on Jul 8, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on Lebda’s interview with McGran, I’m leaning even more toward the view that there’s not just one D likely leaving town, but two. That’s the only way he has any serious shot at taking a #4 or #5 D slot, doing more PK/PP.
Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Mushroom Mushroom Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Mushroom Mushroom Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Mushroom Mushroom SNAAAAAAAAAAKE SNAAAAAAAAAAAKE OH LOOK IT’S A SNAAAAAAAKE Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda Lebda
Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Jul 8, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Mess wit da badgas, da badgas goan mess wit you.
by not norm ullman on Jul 8, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Before the internet
we all had our own little stories and jokes. Now everyone has badgers and mushrooms and lolcats.
Nobody wears dungarees anymore!
McGran’s interview was ok up until he asked Lebda why he chose Toronto:
Lebda said he never spoke to the Leafs about potential trades. He simply likes the team and its direction. "It’s a good fit for me," said Lebda. "I just like the situation, I like Brian. What he’s doing there, it’s a good thing. He has a good track record. And I want to be a part of it.
Should read as:
They offered me a boatload of cash, way more than anyone else. I said yes before my agent could even finish his sentence.
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
That’s what I started wondering on my drive home tonight. If he can step in and produce if he’s given the opportunity then the optics of the deal change.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd be more worried, but I know that....
LEAF-MAN will always be there to bail him out!!!!
And where the hell is LEAF-MAN this Summer? Why isn’t he out there twisting Kovie’s arm, smooth-talking Anaheim, and otherwise making things happen?
LEBDA-MAN
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
When Leafmans gets here, he’s gonna go Jerry Springer on your ass for that.
by not norm ullman on Jul 8, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
LeafsMan is like King Arthur. He’ll return when needed. Clearly this isn’t as dire as we think.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Leafman cares not for your ‘Off Season’
Pretty sure he is in Aruba with all the hookers and blow any Leafman could need.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jul 8, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
… and how much hookers and blow could a Leafman need?
Whoa.
by not norm ullman on Jul 8, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
ask the hookers
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jul 8, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Brett Lebda
Brett Lebda isn’t impressed with your facts and figures. Brett Lebda is all about being out there on the ice. Brett Lebda is paid out the ass. No home. Brett Lebda stole that line from Lil’ Wayne. Brett Lebda is young money cash money. Brett Lebda… Brett…. Lebda…
Brett….. LebbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz
My Goal Is To Make Each Comment As Meaningless As Possible
Hal Gill #1
Since we’re apparently such big fans of churchill here I’d like to say on the subject of Gill
“That man is a sheep in sheeps clothing!”
ANTROFAN
You are a good man. Welcome.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
jesus christ. get a room.
In loving memory of #21 Chris Higgins......I never even got the chance to say "I Love You"
Your Antro Hate is duly noted >:(
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Jul 8, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t judge Burke’s offseason until October 7 and I hate to say it but I think the Leafs are going to unload Schenn.
If he can’t get the younger brother, he doesn’t want either of them!!!
re: Schenn
That is what I think, and I hope we are both wrong, but I think Schenn may be part of a package for a serious forward; for these reasons:
1) Burke’s pursuit of yet more defense;
2) Inability to get Luke’s brother;
3) explicit ‘brace yourselves Leaf Nation’ comment that being in the 29th position makes damn few people safe;
4) the fact that we have no real assets, and we will have to give something good to get a top six forward; and
5) He is Old Man River’s pick.
Just a hunch, sorry for getting all MLHS on your ass, but I did refrain from suggesting possible trades….
"Windows 7 was my idea--and I am suing"
Man, I hope no other Leaf players have brothers, otherwise Burke may have to trade the whole team.
by Mirinov's Nose on Jul 8, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
still angry at this possiblity, I just think it's mortgaging the future AGAIN. I don't wan't ONE cup, I want a DYNASTY!
Schenn will be an elite shutdown defensman in the league for years to come, no, he doesn’t have anyoffensive up-side, that’s not why he was drafted. And no Komi is not a comparable player moving forward, let alone the age difference. I know BB and co. are in a hurry to get somewhere, but this isn’t the year, the Draft was moot, FA-Day is full of slim-pickins’ except Kovy’ whom I DON"T EVEN WANT! Give these kids some time to play together, to gel.
One more top 6 guy will not bring us the cup. give your head a shake. I’m more worried about impending chemistry issues.
"the usefulness of a cup, is in it's emptiness"
by Maniel Darois on Jul 8, 2010 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
in a 30 team cap league
I’ll take a Cup.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Jul 8, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
One
…would be a good starting point
"the usefulness of a cup, is in it's emptiness"
by Maniel Darois on Jul 8, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
At this point I’d actually settle for perrenially competitive.
I hate going to the ACC and being the guy screaming his head off, I miss the Gardens, the fans.
We’ve been a basement dwelling joke for far too long, with occasional runs to within a stones throw of glory.
but never have we done it without buying our team. Now’s the time to start
"the usefulness of a cup, is in it's emptiness"
by Maniel Darois on Jul 8, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d be happy with one cup, thanks.
Me: Any idiot could see that.
Mrs. P: You're not just any idiot, you're the most special kind of idiot.
by Sergei Puckizin on Jul 9, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
As for Kab
My personal non-leaf man-crush (double hyphenate,sweet) is James Neal from dallas, he hits, he scores, he’s from the shwa, him and a second rounder and…….SOLD!
Good points but....
He may be overpaid for a number 6 d-man, but Finger is even worse. So if they get rid of Finger now, (send him the the Marlies if they have to) it saves 2 million. I don’t know much about Lebda but I believe one of the leafs personnel staff knows him from a previous team before he signed with the Wings so they have a good idea what they are getting from him.
Trading Drunk
If I was Burkie, and really really drunk, I would do the following, before passing out.
Trade Kessel, Blacker, and McKegg to LA for Schenn and Simmonds.
Then I would have maybe 6 more beers then call my old buddy in Anaheim , give him Kaberle, Beachemin, next year’s 2nd and Caputi or Hanson (his choice) for Ryan and Lupol’s shitty contract. The guy has been hurt for a couple of years, I’m sure they can’t wait to dump that ticket.
Then I pass out until the next day, when I start to worry about needing 1 more reliable D man until one or two of the kids are ready. And Lupol’s wonky back after his operation and rehab.
Anyway, drunk or not, I have a D without Kabs and Komisarik instead of Beauchemin, about the same as last year. And I have 3 scoring lines without Kessel. And way tougher up front as well.
Here is how it looks at CapGeek.
FORWARDS
Kris Versteeg ($3.083m) / Tyler Bozak ($3.725m) / * Ryan ($5.400m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($2.350m) / Nazem Kadri ($1.720m) / * Simmonds ($1.900m)
Colby Armstrong ($3.000m) / * Schenn ($3.000m) / * Lupol ($4.200m)
Mike Brown ($0.537m) / John Mitchell ($0.725m) / Colton Orr ($1.000m)
Fredrik Sjostrom ($0.750m)
DEFENSEMEN
Carl Gunnarsson ($0.800m) / Dion Phaneuf ($6.500m)
Brett Lebda ($1.450m) / Mike Komisarek ($4.500m)
Keith Aulie ($0.733m) / Luke Schenn ($2.975m)
GOALTENDERS
Jean-Sebastien Giguere ($6.000m) / Jonas Gustavsson ($1.350m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
(these totals are compiled using the bonus cushion)
ROSTER: 21; CAP:$59.4m; CARRY-OVER PENALTY: $1.400m;
PAYROLL: $58.099m; CAP ROOM: $5.756m; BONUSES: $6.145m
When I sober up, I realize that I need a #4 D Man until Aulie is ready, by Xmas if all goes well. That’s a big hole to fill but I still have enough cap room to make a move. I’ll need to drink another dozen beers then think that one over.
I’m hoping Lupol rebounds, but if he was always healthy, me taking his contract wouldn’t have made it possible to get Ryan. If he can’t go I plug the hole with a grinder like Sjorstum, I still like this lineup. If Lupol’s back is A 1 after all his rehab, that’s a bonus.
Needless to say, I’ve given Jeff and Grabbo “the finger.”
Comments appreciated.
I think you’d better focus on getting the other GMs drunk because that’s the only way I see us getting baby Schenn, Ryan and Simmonds on the same team.
by The '67 Sound on Jul 8, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Still Drunk
I guess I could move Pheneuf to the left side playing with Komisarik, and Gunnerson with Schenn. That leaves Lebda and Aulie, both left hand shots. One will have to play the right side. Or pick up a 5/6 right hand shot D man and let Aulie log big minutes in the “A”.
I really do need a drink, thirsty work building a playoff team.
BOB DOLE
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jul 8, 2010 11:06 PM EDT reply actions
Why are people so high on Simmonds? Is it just that he is so young?
by bradleyhutchison on Jul 9, 2010 12:28 AM EDT reply actions
Good news everyone!
Boston has resigned Mark Stuart to a 1-year deal worth 1.7 million dollars. That means, that Brett Lebda is now only the 5th highest paid 6th defenseman in the league.
I've always wanted to be a PPP Princess. You see kids, you can be anything you want to be; so long as Jay Leno doesn't also want to be that.
woo!
for stuff!
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Jul 9, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, as a Boston fan, I think our sixth D-man would be Matt Hunwick. He may score more than Stuie, but hes nowhere near as solid defensively as evidenced by his -16 in 76 games last year vs Stuart’s +1 in 56. If Hunwick was playing on “higher” D-pairings its probably only due to the injuries to players like Stuart and Ference.
Hunwick’s salary is $1.45M
The Brett Lebda Investigation
I found this the other day, maybe it can shed some light.
by Biscuit in Basket on Jul 12, 2010 8:42 PM EDT reply actions
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