Top Nine Forwards
Editor's Note: JP would not stand for Scott Reynolds ignoring the Maple Leafs in his study of the breakdown of Leafs' forwards. Turns out "Top Six/Bottoms Six" might be a misnomer.
As everyone is already now well aware, Scott Reynolds put together an interesting post over at Copper & Blue yesterday about top-six forwards that is some good reading. I started chipping away on this post before The '67 Sound also posted some work on this, and I hope that all this material hasn't been covered in the 300+ comments already on the article.
It seems that Brian Burke, one of the GM's that put the most (public) emphasis on the top-six, bottom-six philosophy didn't even finish the season with enough forwards to qualify for Reynolds' study. Let's relax the parameters of said study a little to see how the ice time numbers break down in Toronto.
So we'll reduce the minimum number of games from 40 to 30, and we'll also take a look at the forwards that we traded away before the end of the season: Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman, Jamal Mayers, Lee Stempniak, and Jason Blake. Then, we'll take a look at our new team's ice time from last season.
So the 12 forwards that played 30 games in a Leaf uniform that remained on the team at the end of the season are split into Reynolds' categories as follows:
|
Top 3 |
4 - 6 |
7 - 9 |
10 - 12 |
|
Kessel |
Kulemin |
Lundmark |
Sjostrom |
|
Grabovski |
Mitchell |
Hanson |
Primeau |
|
Bozak |
Stalberg |
Wallin |
Orr |
|
13.98 |
12.52 |
10.95 |
8.47 |
Note that it's the average 5-on-5 ice time per 60 minutes for each set of players on the bottom of each column.
What strikes me right off the bat is that Reynolds' theory (that ‘top-nine' forwards are a more useful distinction than ‘top-six' forwards) fits in perfectly here. Between first and second liners, there is only an average difference of 1.46 minutes per game, and between second and third liners, that difference is only slightly more at 1.57. The real drop off comes between the third and fourth-liners, with a discrepancy of 2.48 minutes per game.
Just for the record, The Leafs rank 19th in average 1st line ice time, 26th in average 2nd line ice time, 28th in average 3rd line ice time, and 22nd in average 4th line ice time. I think these numbers suggest the obvious: the Leafs' terribleness was very well distributed, and aside from Phil Kessel, hardly anyone on this team was getting the normal amount of minutes at on any given line. So let's take all this data with a grain of salt, and hope that first, second, third, and fourth-line roles become more apparent this coming season (as has been explained in The '67 Sound's post).
Oh, and those ex-Leaf forwards?
|
Traded players |
|
Stajan |
|
Hagman |
|
Mayers |
|
Stempniak |
|
Blake |
|
12.34 |
Since, as was noted in Reynolds' article, teams' personnel is a fluid thing, and it might pay to look at what kind of effect the old guard's departure may have had on these numbers. Naturally, the amount of playing time per 60 minutes changes a little when a player is traded, but perhaps not so much that we shouldn't look at what the Leafs' forward breakdown would look like if we included the castaways' year-end numbers from other teams. The average ice time per game for the traded players is actually below that of the third line at 12.34 minutes per game, but if Mayers' time of 8.25 is removed, these players played for 13.36 mpg. Let's include all of them:
|
Top 3 |
4 - 6 |
7 - 9 |
10 - 16 |
|
Kessel |
Bozak |
Stempniak |
Lundmark |
|
Stajan |
Blake |
Mitchell |
Hanson |
|
Grabovski |
Hagman |
Stalberg |
Wallin |
|
Sjostrom |
|||
|
Primeau |
|||
|
Mayers |
|||
|
Orr |
|||
|
14.3 |
13.19 |
12.43 |
9.5 |
So here the difference between the first and second lines is 1.11, the difference between the second and third line is 0.76, and the difference between the third and fourth lines is 2.93. This is still bearing out Reynolds' theory.
How about our current players? As of right now, there are only 11 forwards who have any kind of job security at all, and this is if we knock the 30-game minimum to 20. Versteeg, Armstrong, Caputi, and Brown are the only forwards to add to the mix - let's forget about the one game that Kadri played where he had 15+ minutes of ice time.
|
Top 3 |
4 - 6 |
7 - 9 |
10 - 11 |
|
Kessel |
Kulemin |
Armstrong |
Brown |
|
Grabovski |
Mitchell |
Caputi |
Orr |
|
Bozak |
Versteeg |
Sjostrom |
|
|
13.98 |
12.61 |
11.03 |
7.04 |
There isn't any big shift in ice time distribution. Between the first and second line is 1.37, between the second and third is 1.58, and between the third and fourth is 3.99. Heck, even if we throw Christian Hanson in there (he would qualify as top-nine time based on his numbers from last year) we only wind up with a difference of 3.68 between the third and fourth lines. This makes me wonder how often Orr and Brown are going to be in the lineup together, since they fill roughly the same role.
To conclude, it seems to matter very little whether a player like Colby Armstrong spends most of his time on the second or third line, so long as we have someone capable of putting up points to switch him in and out with. Burke's top six/bottom six model doesn't appear to apply to ice time; whether or not it's Wilson's doing is another matter.
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Comments
Solid Work
Given the information subsequent discussion from yesterday’s FTB, ‘67 Sound’s post, and this one I can only think that if Wilson doesn’t produce results this season he is gone. It’s pretty clear that Burke has assembled the team the way he wants, we’ve got the right type of players to play the right type of minutes it’s in his hands now.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 9:36 AM EDT reply actions
I don't think that's it at all
More so I think this, and ‘67 Sound’s post from yesterday, point out that while Burke talks about this Top 6 – Bottom 6 philosophy to team building; that’s not what he actually practices nor is it the way his coaches, or really any league coach for that matter, play their teams.
I’ve been critical of his T6-B6 structure before, and this is yet more ammunition for me to use in my critique of it.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
I’m not saying that it’ll follow the T6-B6 philosophy, which as you point out has been de-bunked, just that it doesn’t seem like there will be too many monumental changes to the line-up (since it’s Burke you can never be sure) just some tweaks. If Wilson can’t make things work Burke will find someone who can. I guess I just don’t see Wilson sticking around if he has another losing season but who knows.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
i was over at that post yesterday, i don’t think it was debunked.
he’ll have 6 guys he’ll rely on for most of the offense, and 6 guys he’ll rely on for a checking / grinding role. i don’t remember him saying anything about top 6 / bottom 6 based on TOI.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
I guess de-bunked is the wrong word to use, let’s say redefined. I think a lot of people took T6-B6 to mean TOI.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Exactly, and like the commenter formerly known as Fleet Fox pointed out, if CheeEEse can play solid minutes on our top checking line while putting up at least 15 goals he might be worth his contract.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
i'll admit
i’m guilty of thinking ice time would be dolled out in a 1st scoring, 2nd scoring, checking line, 4th line (aka grind or “energy” line) and I think a lot of it has to do with playing video game hockey.
reading through this post was a bit of a light bulb moment, as it illuminated something that, if you think about logically, makes a lot more sense, especially if the coach likes to match lines. In those instances, the top checking line should see a fair amount of ice time as they line up against the oppositions top offensive lines.
I feel smarter just for reading this. i are learned.
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Knowledge is power
Exactly, I think the surprising this is how evenly distributed the minutes are.
I think too when I think of the term “sheltered minutes” w/r/t/ youngin’s like Kadri, Little Jerry, and Meuller I’m think about less TOI when it’s more a matter of lower QUALCOMP. Giving Kadri “3rd line minutes” is a much different idea when thinking about it that way.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
especially if the coach likes to match lines. In those instances, the top checking line should see a fair amount of ice time as they line up against the oppositions top offensive lines.
Huh, interesting point. I wonder if checking lines still see as much ice at away games (where it’s hard to match them against the other guys top line), or if we’re conflating two completely different patterns together in these numbers?
I can only think that if Wilson doesn’t produce results this season he is gone.
I think you might be right. Birky’s post from a couple of days back talks about any Leafs’ playoff chances resting on a MINIMUM 10% increase in scoring, and the G&G goaltending tandem averaging a .910 save percentage over the year.
Burke failed to acquire significant scoring help for the team via a Kaberle trade, which may be why he kept him. Even if Burke picks up a veteran free agent, the responsibility for a 10% increase in scoring lies squarely on Wilson’s shoulders:
-Kessel needs to make 40 goals this year.
-we cannot afford a sophomore slump from Bozak.
-Versteeg must be given a chance to prove that he can score more with bigger minutes.
-Any veteran free agent needs to be integrated into the team well.
-If Kadri cracks the lineup, he has to put up at least 15 goals
and on the defensive side, Wilson must:
-Exploit Kaberle’s contract year to wring some increased scoring out of him
-Find a way to get Phaneuf and Kaberle working together; it’s embarassing having two offensive defensemen work so poorly together
The most pessimistic Leafs fan on the board.
by Peter de Chatham on Aug 20, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Powerplay and penalty kill
The Leafs need to improve special teams above all else.
Even strength gets a lot easier if you can score on your powerplay and keep the other team from scoring on theirs. Totally different dynamic.
Kaberle doesn’t need to light it up as long as he plays within Wilson’s system of moving the puck quickly to the forwards, and as long as he clicks with Phaneuf on the powerplay.
I don’t much like the idea of converting Kaberle to a forward, but one strategy I would be open to is having Kaberle at forward on the penalty kill. I think he could be very dispruptive up front when the Leafs are a man down, and otherwise I think we have better d-men on the penalty kill. Last season, penalty killing among the forwards was awful, and the Leafs at one point were threatening to have the worst penalty-kill percentage in recorded history.
by general borschevsky on Aug 20, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
You had me at this
Powerplay and penalty kill
The Leafs need to improve special teams above all else
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Punch more Carkner
1) Somehow arrange to have Carkner traded to every team the day we play them.
2) Orr punches faces.
3) Profit.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 20, 2010 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Kaberle doesn’t need to light it up as long as he plays within Wilson’s system of moving the puck quickly to the forwards, and as long as he clicks with Phaneuf on the powerplay.
Yeah, I sort of meant to say that – Kaberle and Phaneuf weren’t clicking together on the powerplay.
As for the PK, we can only hope that Sjostrom continues his steady play from least year. I’m not sure why you would want Kaberle to play with him as a forward on the PK. He’s not a particularly defensive defenceman, and his signature ability to hit the opponents net from our goal line is useless in a PK.
Kulemin’s a better choice for a forward on the PK – he came up with the Leafs as a checking forward, so he’s defensively responsible, plus he can come out on a shorthanded rush.
Anyway, Wilson has to be able to make these pieces work together somehow. Of the PP and PK, I think the PP is the more crucial component, because of the scoring the Leafs need.
The most pessimistic Leafs fan on the board.
by Peter de Chatham on Aug 20, 2010 11:30 AM EDT reply actions
Kaberle at forward on the PK
Just an idea I thought I’d throw out there. Mostly to counter the suggestion (not yours) that he should convert to centre or wing full-time.
Kaberle keeps his head up, sees the play developing well, and is difficult to stickhandle or pass the puck through in open ice. He doesn’t match up well down low covering bodies in front or behind the net, but a forward doesn’t need to do that and also doesn’t really need to be physically aggressive when a man down. Kaberle can also easily find the open hole down the ice, whether it’s a pass, or a shot on goal, or just clearing the zone to kill off penalty time.
Kulemin and Sjostrom should be good on the PK but I think you can never have too many good penalty-killers, and not having enough is a big problem.
by general borschevsky on Aug 20, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
First timer, be gentle...
Love this post and “What Do the ‘06-’07 Ducks Tell Us About the ‘10-’11 Leafs?” by The ‘67 Sound. As with one of Blurr’s comments above (can I call you Blurr, or is it Mr.1974?), I also had that ‘sudden realization’ feeling after reading these posts about line-definitions and the associated players’ roles. I always considered most teams having Scoring Line 1, Scoring Line 2, Checking Line, and Energy Line in terms of most TOI to least. It is my experience that most game broadcasts show the opening lineups in this order. It never occurred to me that teams would consider giving more ice time to their Checking Line than the secondary scoring line. And how, in turn, this would give this ‘Sheltered Scoring Line’ better opportunities to contribute. (This also helped me come to terms about Armstrong’s contract… if he can play 2nd line TOI minutes as an effective shutdown player, then it’ll be worth the investment). Thanks for the insight. I’ve been ‘lurking from the shadows’ for over a year now, but these posts inspired me to join and participate.
"Put the kids in with a few old pappy guys who still like to win and the combination is unbeatable."
Conn Smythe
by rover_from_under_crowsnest on Aug 20, 2010 9:16 PM EDT reply actions
…but these posts inspired me to join and participate.
That’s actually an awesome compliment – thanks!
As for Armdog, I think he probably could still have been signed for less, but I’m with you when you say that this kind of thing helps you feel at least a little better about his contract.
"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"
As for Armdog, I think he probably could still have been signed for less, but I’m with you when you say that this kind of thing helps you feel at least a little better about his contract.
My feelings exactly. Nice post JP, very helpful seeing it broken down to track Reynolds’ anaylsis. Among other things, it really is amazing we won any games post-deadline last year when you see how ridiculously thin our forwards were. Gives me some modest cause for optimism for this year.
And welcome rover—thanks for the comment.
by The '67 Sound on Aug 22, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Konichiwa
Thanks for joining. You can call him blurr, or Mr. Dick Picture.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
by SkinnyFish on Aug 23, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
teehee
wang
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 23, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
rec’d for oldtimerish
A Nation of Masochists
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing - Vince Lombardi
Welcome
Thanks for joining. Glad that the work of the community members could help bring you out of lurking :)
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