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Delta SOT for Defensemen

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The other day I posted about Delta SOT scores for the Leafs forwards based on the previous 3 seasons in the NHL.  The stat (an invention of Puck Prospectus' Tom Awad) serves to measure the +/- rating on scoring chance generation or allowance while a given player is on the ice.  Players with higher scores are on the ice for a larger number of good scoring chances than they allow.

I left a look at the Leafs blue line for a couple of days, and hopefully we can come at this second set of numbers with a slightly increased level of understanding.  To assist in some of the discussion this time around I'm going to add some explanation of the adjustment calculations.

Star-divide

Here is a synopsis of Tom Awad's explanations of adjustments to Delta scores:

Situation Adjustments

This adjustment compensates for the zone in which a shift starts, and the percentages of faceoffs won by the team of the player in question.  Defensive players often start in the defensive zone and then surrender a larger number of scoring chances against.  That being said, the adjustment factor will not necessarily adjust a defensive player into a positive DeltaS score because defensive specialists often lack the offensive skills that lead to the generation of scoring chances at the other end of the ice.

Opposition Adjustments

This adjustment is just calculated as the average of the opponent players' Delta S scores.  This may be a simplification of opposition effects, but in the end it should not be as large an impact as teammate factors, because it is basically a given that an NHL player will skate the majority of their ice time against a wider variety of opponents than teammates. With this and the previous adjustment we now have Delta SO.

Teammate Adjustments

Awad took each player’s Delta SO and calculated the amount of 5-on-5 time that they spent with each of their teammates. To determine the adjustment he then subtracted that teammate’s Delta SO per minute, multiplied by the number of minutes the two players played together, times 0.2.

For example, if Alex Ovechkin, Nicklas Backstrom, Alexander Semin, Mike Green and Jeff Schultz all played together all the time, and each one had a Delta SO of 10 in the same amount of ice time, then this process would give each of them a Delta SOT of 2 (subtracting 10 * 0.2 four times from each of them). Conversely, if Ovechkin played half of his time with these four players, and half of his time with 4 other players who each had a Delta SO of 5 (again in the same amount of ice time), then his Delta SOT would be 4.

So now that we have a more detailed explanation (which I hope adds to, or clears up, the discussion that occurred the other day) let's see how the Leafs defenders fared over the past 3 years in respect to the number of scoring chances they've been on the ice for versus the number they've been on the ice against.

Player Delta Delta QS Delta QO Delta QT Delta SOT
Kaberle 09-10 10.9 -1.8 -1.4 -4.5 3.3
Kaberle 08-09 2.8 -0.9 -1.1 1.2 2
Kaberle 07-08 -2.2 -0.8 0.4 0.3 -2.2
Komisarek 09-10 5.7 -0.2 -0.3 -2.6 2.8
Komisarek 08-09 -9 1.7 -0.6 3.9 -4
Komisarek 07-08 -8.4 1.6 1.4 4.2 -1.2
Beauchemin 09-10 6.7 -1 0.3 -4.3 1.7
Beauchemin 08-09 -1.6 0.1 0 0.4 -1.1
Beauchemin 07-08 -6.6 -0.5 1.3 1.6 -4.2
Gunnarsson 09-10 1.5 -0.2 0 -1 0.3
Phaneuf 09-10 -4.0 -1.3 2.4 1.7 -1.0
Phaneuf 08-09 4.5 -1.9 -0.4 -3.3 -1.1
Phaneuf 07-08 7.2 -1 -0.2 -3.3 2.6
Schenn 09-10 1.9 0.3 -2.1 -2.8 -2.8
Schenn 08-09 -9.7 -0.2 -0.6 1.8 -8.7
Finger 09-10 -4 -0.1 -0.3 -1.3 -5.7
Finger 08-09 -2 -0.9 -1.1 2 -2
Finger 07-08 -0.8 0.1 -0.6 -4.1 -5.5
Lebda 09-10 1.7 -0.9 -1.4 0.3 -0.4
Lebda 08-09 1.8 -1 -1.7 -0.8 -1.7
Lebda 07-08 1.1 -2.1 -2.3 -3.6 -6.9


So what does this tell us?  On the negative side of the docket, Jeff Finger's trade value may never climb above zero.  He appears to be a liability on the ice in terms of scoring chances against.  Dion Phaneuf also needs to rebound from two poor seasons of Delta SOT scores.  His time in Toronto at the end of the season may bode well in that regard as he actually registered a Delta SOT of +0.9 with the Leafs, so perhaps he is settling down in terms of the number of chances he's allowing.

On the more positive side of things, it appears every other Leaf blue liner has seen a steady increase in their Delta SOT scores over the past 3 seasons.  Obviously Carl Gunnarsson and Luke Schenn are still in the early going of their careers, but Gunnarsson's +0.3 Delta SOT score at least bodes well for next season if he makes improvements.  Similarly, Schenn's scores improved drastically from year one to year two, as he played slightly more sheltered minutes with superior teammates against easier opposition.  Overall the net impact was to minimize the chances against while increasing the chances at the offensive end.

Mike Komisarek seems to have been placed in a less defensive role if his Delta QS adjustment is anything to go by.  He also faced easier competition, so it will be interesting to see how he's used next season.  Despite facing some of the team's toughest competition, Francois Beauchemin put in his best season out of his past three from the perspective of producing good scoring chances.  Hopefully he can maintain that level of play.

Brett Lebda's numbers also make lots of sense.  He was playing sheltered minutes up until this past season, often skating with superior teammates (which makes sense on Detroit).  Then he dropped down the depth chart, and was seeing a reduced quality of teammate.  Despite that fact, his Delta SOT number improved every year over the past three.

In the end, the fact that the Leafs Defense generally appears to have had solid Delta SOT scores last season (particularly in comparison to the forwards), leads to the conclusion that overall the team wasn't as bad defensively at 5 on 5 as it might appear from their record.  This should serve as a further indictment of the shoddy goaltending of Vesa Toskala, but hey... we already knew that didn't we?

Feel free to contribute discussion below.

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the Leafs Defense generally appears to have had solid Delta SOT scores last season (particularly in comparison to the forwards)

Let me see if I understand this right. At the end of the day, the total Delta figures for forwards and defence on a given team should be relatively equal. After all, both Fs and Ds have to be on the ice for every given scoring chance for or against.

Your data seems to indicate the Leafs’ D had much better numbers than their F, which suggests that either (1) the departed Fs from last year had better numbers than those who remain, or (2) the combination of Exelby and White had terrible numbers.

Have you looked at the team as a whole last year? I think that might make sense so we see what we’ve lost (for comparative purposes) as well as what we have.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 2, 2010 9:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes

I have the numbers for the entire NHL… and to be fair, I’ve been adding together the numbers of the Leafs from last season that were traded midway through. That is to say, I haven’t JUST been using their Leafs numbers – I’ve been factoring in their play on their former teams. I’m looking at the absolutes here, not just their play with the Leafs.

Either way, here are the “departed” scores JUST with the Leafs (I’m not factoring in their play post trade):

Forwards:

Hagman: Delta (9.7); QS (-0.5); QO (-0.7); QT (-3.8); Delta SOT (4.7)
Stajan: Delta (9.2); QS (-0.7); QO (-0.3); QT (-3.6); Delta SOT (4.5)
Ponikarovsky: Delta (13); QS (-0.4); QO (-0.5); QT (-3.8); Delta SOT (8.3)
Blake: Delta (12.4); QS (-0.6); QO (0.2); QT (-2.9); Delta SOT (9.2)
Stempniak: Delta (3.0); QS (-0.7); QO (-0.3); QT (-2.2); Delta SOT (-0.1)
Mayers: Delta (-5.2); QS (-0.9); QO (-0.3); QT (-0.4); Delta SOT (-6.8)
Primeau: Delta (-0.2); QS (-0.4); QO (-1.1); QT (-0.8); Delta SOT (-2.4)
Wallin: Delta (-4.1); QS (0.1); QO (-0.6); QT (-0.6); Delta SOT (-5.2)
Stalberg: Delta (3.2); QS (-0.8); QO (0.2); QT (-0.8); Delta SOT (1.8)
Tlusty: Delta (-0.5); QS (0); QO (0.1); QT (-0.1); Delta SOT (-0.6)
Lundmark: Delta (0.6); QS (0.1); QO (-0.5); QT (0.1); Delta SOT (0.3)

Defenders:

Exelby: Delta (-1.2); QS (+0.2); QO (-0.7); QT (-1.0); Delta SOT (-2.7)

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

So

in summary… losing Hagman, Stajan, Blake, and Ponikarovsky does deal a serious blow to the Leafs +/- of scoring chances up front, and to a lesser extent Stalberg seemed fairly useful from this perspective.

Losing Mayers, Primeau, Wallin, and Exelby is a step up though, and bringing Lundmark back would have made sense from a bottom 6 perspective from what we’re looking at here.

Either way, the Leafs forwards are young, and they should continue to improve (or move) towards their NHL level.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Where is Ian White?

by Leaf in Habland on Aug 2, 2010 3:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

oh right

forgot about him… oddly… I was thinking about him before I did the forwards… then left it since the request was more about comparing the new forwards to the guys who left.

Gimme a sec:

Ian White 09-10: Delta (12.5), QS (-2.2), QO (-0.8), QT (-4.4), Delta SOT (5.5)
Ian White 08-09: Delta (0.5), QS (-0.7), QO (-0.2), QT (2.6), Delta SOT (2.3)
Ian White 07-08: Delta (2.9), QS (-0.5), QO (-0.6), QT (0.9), Delta SOT (2.7)

He’s been pretty damn good at 5 on 5 for a while now, and he suffered for the first two years playing with crappier line mates, but this past year he put up very solid numbers while playing with top 6 guys and top 4 D partners.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh

and he’s better by this measure than Dion Phaneuf… by quite a wide margin… doesn’t give up as much in his own end.

We’ll see how that works out longer term, but it might hurt us quite a bit, and help Calgary.

I think if you look at the numbers, Calgary comes out on top of the deal so far… between White, Stajan, and Hagman they’re well ahead of the Leafs with Phaneuf and Sjostrom… if Phaneuf can get back to where he was in his first two years, the Leafs are doing well though.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

that is the sound of conventional wisdom being forcibly and violently violated.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Aug 2, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes and no.

From Hawerchuk at Behind the Net:

Essentially, as Vic and Likens and many others have shown, shot location (aka quality) occupies a very small slice of goal scoring. So the non-location based part is the amount by which you over- or under-perform the locations you shoot from. We know that’s huge – so many things are wrapped up in it – goaltending, shooting talent, defensive positioning, screens, rushes, whether the shot came off a turnover. A small part of it is shooting talent…But a small part of a big part is as big as a big part of a small part. That’s the only way I can think of it.

What we see is that when White was on the ice, for example, the Leafs tended to get more shots from “prime” areas than they gave up. With Phaneuf, it’s much less the case. A lot of that might just be Phaneufs penchant for winding up and letting fly.

Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.

by 1967ers on Aug 3, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

What the Hawerchuk comment means is that 24% of shooting percentage can be associated with the location from which the shot was taken. 19% comes from “shooting ability.” The remaining 57%, depending on your preference, is either “noise” or “uncaptured performance.”

That 57% breaks down into 54% as “transient shooting ability” and 3% as “transient ability in getting to that location.” Combined, 27% of shooting percentage is related to position.

It doesn’t follow that players who give up more shots from the “good spots” than they take are poor defensive performers. A lot depends on who they are playing, where those players tend to go and where they themselves prefer to shoot from.

Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.

by 1967ers on Aug 3, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point I think needs to be made here is

there is a level of accounting for the production of the opposition in the QO adjustment.

The reality is, getting to the right spot is something players have a high level of control over. It might not be a large portion of goal scoring ability, but as he says, the under or over performance on the locations you shoot from is what we’re saying determines “goal scoring ability”… a lot of which is transient.

Obviously Phil Kessel likely outshoots his locations… hence his high productivity, but he does shoot from all over the damn place… and does so frequently. This is why I would like to see Tyler Bozak shoot the puck more next season, as I think he may well be of the sort to outperform his locations.

I’d like Grabovski to shoot more, not because I think he will outperform his the average from the locations he shoots from, but because he gets in good position more often than not. Even if he under-performs from the right locations, he’s got a better chance of scoring from those locations than a lot of other players, who don’t manage the same thing.

Players like Matt Stajan (who lack a quality shot) are only likely to increase their goal scoring ability by going to the right spots on the ice and burying the chances they get. He seems to have done that over the past few years, and that’s increased his productivity.

I’m curious to see how next season develops, but I think on the whole, the Leafs will improve in this regard as the team grows into itself some more.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 5, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is no surprise these numbers look decent as the Leafs were an OK team five on five only getting outscored 163-154, even with shoddy goaltending. It was special teams that killed the Leafs as the Leafs scored just 44 PP goals but had 73 PP goals against.

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HockeyAnalysis.com - Taking a Deeper Look at the World of Hockey

by HockeyAnalysis on Aug 2, 2010 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

A very, very good point that is frequently overlooked.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 2, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could post the PP and PK numbers also

but that would take me a bit and I’m not about to do it right now.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

and they’d be based on tiny sample sizes.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Aug 2, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not if you looked over 3 seasons

which we can do.

For instance, Kaberle’s combined Delta SOT at 5v4 for the past 3 years is actually zero (there’s a downward adjustment for EXPECTED PP production). Overall it works out to -0.6 last year, -1.4 the year before, and +2 in 07-08.

In other words, Kaberle’s production with the man advantage is a lot worse than we might think.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

The downward adjustment

is just the Raw Delta Score, minus the average NHL delta score in that man power situation… for 5 on 5 there’s no adjustment, in 5 on 4 it’s adjusted downwards, and in 4 on 5 it’s adjusted upwards.

So I repeat, in comparison to the EXPECTED results, Kaberle has been below average the past two years.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

and Tomas Kaberle figured directly in 30 of the 44 PP goals. But no, we don’t need him. He no longer serves a need on this team.

"I'd walk into the Leafs dressing room to get ready for the day and Harold would be there in his boxer shorts shaving. King Clancy would drop by a little later, play the fool, and then head off to the racetrack." John Brophy

by Mike Pelyk's Hairdo on Aug 2, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

TRAAAAAAADE!!!

(to be fair, good != role on the team. And if he was still 22 nobody would be arguing it in the least).

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. I think I need a drink now.

by Wan Ihite on Aug 2, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again

when he was out of the lineup injured in 2008-09 the Leafs PP went from 18.85% to 18.23% approximately. He isn’t as integral as you’re making him sound.

Put this another way – if you put Gunnarsson on the point, he’d probably figure into 25 of the 40 PP goals the Leafs would score without Kaberle… and I doubt anyone would blame him for it being crap either.

We need more guys to score PP GOALS… that’s a bigger issue than having a guy that picks up PP assists.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you look at Delta SOT for the past 3 years on the PP

Jeff Finger, Francois Beauchemin and Carl Gunnarsson were all better on the point last year, while Dion Phaneuf and Ian White were both worse than Kaberle with the Leafs.

In 08-09 Mike Van Ryn and Jeff Finger were at +3.2 and +1.8 respectively.

In 07-08 Pavel Kubina and Tomas Kaberle led the team with a +2 Delta SOT score respectively.

From a scoring chance production rate on the PP in comparison to NHL average PP D men, Kaberle has been substandard for 2 years consecutively, with a rate behind that of JEFF FINGER… I’m sorry… but he isn’t producing as much as he should be considering who is on the ice with him, and the amount of ice time he’s been getting.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the idea of this stat, but I’d to see it outside of its +/- form.

I think it may be interesting if you separated what was driving delta up and pushing delta down and showed them individually as cumulative numbers or even numbers per 60 minutes.

I guess what I’m looking for is some way to distinguish PLAYER A, with a delta sot of -1 who gave up 20 chances a game, but generated 19, and PLAYER B – who played the same amount of minutes, -1 delta sot, but gave up 5 chances, and generated 4.

Is a players measure of conservatism useful?

verbeauty!

by A Lindros Jaw on Aug 2, 2010 10:03 AM EDT reply actions  

That's a valid request

unfortunately Awad has not posted that information, and I don’t have the scoring chance/shot location info to look at myself.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

One other thing though

do you prefer it to Corsi? and do you have the same complaint about Corsi? or is that less of an issue?

It’s really the same concept as Corsi… just factoring in shot location.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Though I believe ‘ideal shot location’ or the definition of a scoring chance is somewhat subjective, I would say factoring ‘quality of shot’ in is miles ahead of just looking at gross shot totals.

I guess the same holds true for individual corsi stats. I can’t find the raw corsi table, so I don’t know if these are even presented. Might be interesting to see though.

verbeauty!

by A Lindros Jaw on Aug 2, 2010 4:26 PM EDT reply actions  

58 0 Days Since Last Reply Fail

verbeauty!

by A Lindros Jaw on Aug 2, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alan Ryder of hockeyanalytics.com posted a really great article on shot quality from some time ago. Data sets for each year following the ‘04 article are on the main site.
The short message is that shot location and type matters and the effect is not explained by correlation with frequency of shots. Some concern about the quality of the NHL’s data on shot location but he doesn’t try to gloss it over in the analysis.

Lots of good charts and clear thinking, I recommend his site but particularly this article. Though I suspect a number of you are already familiar.

by Nirbo on Aug 2, 2010 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah

I’ve been reading Alan’s stuff at Hockey Analytics for a few years now, particularly his studies of player value, shot location, and the work some other guys on the site have done regarding player development trajectories.

The shot type thing is interesting for discussion, and Gabe Desjardins does break it down on his individual shooting statistics for 5v5. It obviously varies for each player which shot is most likely to go in, but the thing I find interesting as an aside is the correlation between shot distance, and shot type. Most shots from over 20-25 feet are slap shots, but most shots from close in are registered as wrist or snap shots. The thing that I find interesting is, shot distance can act as a substitute for shot type in most cases based on this information.

Either way, thanks for posting the link, and I hope everyone’s getting SOMETHING of value out of all of this.

Maybe one day we’ll have a comprehensive way of comparing what each player is good at using certain stats (or a combination thereof)… we’re definitely getting there, but we’re still a few years from that methinks.

The next step will be the NHL doing a more diligent job of tracking all of this stuff so the stat geeks can go through it and figure out what correlates to the values that matter most in winning… goals for and against. There’s stuff underneath the top layer, and we’re still figuring a lot of it out.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Relevant point regarding this stat and John Mitchell.

In regards to a DobberHockey message board comment:

Does this thing count PK Becaue Mitchell is a PKer…

And also, Mitchell is normally our checking centre. He plays against the other team’s top players. So the fact, taht he scores 20 somethign points isn’t bad at all. And he was only a -7 last year. Plus he’s only 25, and his work ethic is pretty good in my opinion.

Mitchell does to some extent play against more difficult players than most of the Leafs. His Corsi QoC was higher than every regular forward on the club other than Rickard Wallin last year. Unfortunately, this statistic is a 5 on 5 stat, so his PK numbers are not counted. But just for the sake of argument, here are his 4 v 5 Delta SOT results:

4 v 5: Delta (0); QS (-0.3); QO (-0.1); QT (0.7); Delta SOT (0.4)

So in reality Mitchell was better than the average NHLer at preventing scoring chances when down a man. Christian Hanson was also a +0.4, while Bozak was a +0.6, and Wallin was a +1.1 on the PK.

Wayne Primeau was brought in as a “specialist” and ended up with a -2.8 score on the PK, so I’m not sure he did his job this past year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 2, 2010 6:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Just reading through the table, and understanding what these numbers meant (creating scoring chances vs allowing them) I went, “Man, Toskala really did suck, didn’t he?”

Also, special teams need work. Pronto.

BS

by MapleLeafMole on Aug 4, 2010 12:07 PM EDT reply actions  

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