The Toronto Sun: Classy
by Chemmy on Aug 20, 2010 1:32 PM EDT
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PrintFor those of you who don't know Elie Aintabi he's a Habs fan that PPP and I jaw at on Twitter a lot. Aside from his obvious handicap he's a solid guy who was nice enough to forward me an email exchange between himself and James Wallace of the Toronto Sun:
From: James WallaceTo: Elie AintabiPlagiarism is a serious charge but it’s not clear from your email whether you grasp the concept as it applies to journalism. Since you haven’t told me which specific paragraphs give you trouble, I’ll respond generally.
Fuller credited the source magazine (Czech hockey magazine Hokej) for the quotes used in our article. While he read the translated article first on the pensionplanpuppets website, he checked the original article and quotes thorough Google Translate. Attributing quotes to another source is not plagiarism.
We gather information from a variety of sources, including blogs, tweet, etc. Newspapers are not websites. We don’t credit links. The Czech magazine and it’s writer are the originating source of the news and thus deserve credit - not you or your website.
I hope this clarifies things.
To be clear I agree with Mr. Wallace's principle of not crediting links. Had we simply linked to a Czech hockey magazine's article and Mr. Fuller seen that article and expanded on it I would not expect our site to be credited. This isn't what happened however.The Sun used our translation for their own benefit and Mr. Wallace is doing as much damage control as he can.
From: Elie AintabiTo: James WallaceAs I may point our sir, "Plagiarism, is defined in dictionaries as "the wrongful appropriation, close imitation, or purloining and publication, of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions, and the representation of them as one's own original work."", as the translated works would fall under the category of
a) close imitation [...] of the following
a. publication
b. expressions
and he knowingly and intentionally represented them as his own work for gain, profitable or otherwise.
It is for these reasons that you should properly accredit, cite and apologize to the original author(s) to maintain the integrity which took your years to build, yet is taking you a shorter amount of time to ruin.
I would particularly point out these two paragraphs
Here is a translated quotation from Kaberle from PPP:
"The problem is his health. He suffered a concussion last season and there is the possibility of a similar blow to his head and it could even end up as finishing his hockey career. In this regard, such a trade for Toronto would have been very risky, " said Kaberle senior. "
And here is the quotation from the Sun article:
"The problem is his health. He suffered a concussion last season and there is the possibility of a similar blow to his head and it could even end up as finishing his hockey career. In this regard, such a trade for Toronto would have been very risky, " said Kaberle senior.
This is the core issue: the Sun didn't discover this article through our site and do their own translation - they knowingly copied our translation word for word and are callous enough to call out people emailing them saying they don't understand plagiarism.
This is an open question for Mr. Wallace and Mr. Fuller: Wouldn't it have been easier to just credit where you got this?
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I’m disappointed the editor is standing by his man. Would’ve expected a poor excuse about it being an “oversight,” but not actually defending the behaviour.
I hope you guys will consider pursuing this with the Ontario Press Council. Fuller acted completely unethically, and now apparently has the endorsement of his editor for that. If you don’t make an issue of this, the message will be sent that they can get away with this stuff.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
Just a thought
If the roles were reversed the Toronto S** would be all over you like a bad rash, and the “see, bloggers aren’t real journalists” garbage would be in full spew. They’d mock you and use their collective weight to after you and SB Nation, and then Damien Cox would run home to put on his Journalism Standards underoos and write some highbrow pile of bullshit about how bloggers have killed journalism.
Their Ombudsman should sack up and put pen to paper for a column acknowledging their mistake (or at a bare minimum get basic facts of the story correct), but I think you’ll see Chemmy dressed up like the SNES mascot exchanging deep tongue kisses with Bryan Murray before that happens.
Your blog was the writer’s source for the piece. Period. Having worked as a writer for a paper (the equivalent of the Eye), I can tell you that back when I was writing, that standard as delivered by James Wallace woudn’t fly for a moment. You’d credit the source(s) you found it from. Crediting PPP doesn’t cheapen anything for Sun Media. Scott Morrison writes a blog for CBC…do you think that if Scotty had done the work PPP did that the S** would have given credit to Morrison? Same with Marek, or any of the big dogs on TSN (Dreger, McKenzie, Duthie, etc.). I’m guessing there’s about a 100% chance they would have which means their excuse is pure bullshit. Just because I can’t spend a few coins on PPP (better written but with fewer photos of chicks in bikinis) doesn’t mean your work is any less credible.
As Forrest Gump said…that’s about all I have to say about that.
The Maple Leafs- making me certifiably insane since 1985.
by torleafsfan29 on Aug 20, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Defending Cox
While I agree completely with you that the Sun should not have used your work without credit, I have to defend Damien Cox in this comment by @torleafsfan29. Damien has made himself available for interviews and individual email questions from me for inGoal Magazine – a blog. Nothing but a good guy in my experience.
by David Hutchison on Aug 26, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining. I don’t doubt some people have had good interactions with him. Unfortunately, we haven’t.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I am going to do it just because of James Wallace’s bullshit response.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Aug 20, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent
I can understand standing up for your guy in most disputes, but when he’s simply wrong, he’s wrong. Just admit it.
If the OPC sees things your way, you might even establish some precedents for the future. Who knows?
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Also
As I noted in my email to Fuller, I love the irony of MSM accusing bloggers of unprofessional and unethical behaviour on one hand while going ahead and plagiarizing bloggers and sensationalizing their stories on the other.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
This……..instead of just apologizing and moving on, this dude is being a prick.
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
Exactly. A simple apology like “My writer’s mistake. Won’t happen again. Sorry for the trouble.”, and you’d never hear another word out of us on this.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
they probably still think you guys are a bunch of bloggers in your mothers basements who dont understand how the business works or grasp the concept of plagerism
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 20, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, he’s probably more worried about lawsuits flying as a lot of people take apologies as admission of guilt.
by PLAYOFFS!!!1 on Aug 20, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Due to the existence of multiple sources, there was confusion regarding the origin of the translation. The error has been corrected. Please accept our apologies.
Would have been patently untrue, but ended it.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, he’s probably more worried about lawsuits flying as a lot of people take apologies as admission of guilt.
How on earth could one file suit over this?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
People have been sued for much less.
I’m not defending Wallace’s reponse at all, just pointing out he’s probably afraid of the legal ramifications.
by PLAYOFFS!!!1 on Aug 20, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
There are no laws on the books against plagiarism. We could make a civil case but since we can’t prove damages it’s unlikely that anything would come of it.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I agree. Although most companies legal department usually tell people that “I’m sorry” or “My apologies” is not an appriopiate response unless legal has been consulted first.
by PLAYOFFS!!!1 on Aug 20, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I would bet dollars to donuts the editor hasn’t given one moments thought to any legal issues. What are the odds a blog would pursue civil action against a national newspaper for allegedly copying and pasting one paragraph of text?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Well, at least the story makes sense (its still wrong). He translated the Czech article with google translate, but as machine translators cannot handle quotes, he “found” a better translation of the quotes.
I know from my job, which occassionally requires me to translate things, that even a page of translation can take 20 or 30 minutes, even when you don’t care about grammar. This is a lot of work to steal.
I’m sure lawyer man is just covering his butt, but that’s still a response that doesn’t sit well with me.
(and how i wish i could have had sleza translate my Swedish surveys, but the scientists would have been angry)
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
This drives me nuts, too. Are they unaware that translations can be copyrighted? That they take time and effort to produce? Or does copyright law work differently in Canada?
Credit could easily have been given where it’s due. Translators get paid for a reason. That’s bad form.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
I’m actually a translator…
What happens in that vein is this.
You have your original document (source text). Then you ask whether or not it can be translated, the originator agrees or not. If they agree, they still retain proprietary rights to the original and likely the translation as well. There comes a process where you decide who “owns” what. Generally, you get paid for the work of translation but are not the owner of the translated work.
For example, late last year I translated some stuff for Homeland Security. I did all the work but my name was never on it. It was just a “copy” of the original, in another language and bearing the originator’s stamp of approval (through their editor).
In this case, they did indeed plagiarize you. To protect yourself against plagiarism, ask for exclusivity of content or at least their policy on plagiarism or so on.
Hope that helps out.
"According to the statistics, Bester outperformed his teammates in every league that he ever played in, and was easily the best goalie the Leafs had in the 1980s. Despite this, the Momesso goal was essentially the end of Bester's NHL career."
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/10/underrated-allan-bester.html
by BesterThanYesterday on Aug 20, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Dropping Knowledge
I like it.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting…I do know that there are many exceptions and exemptions from copyright and other laws if the materials are being used for news gathering purposes.
For instance, I need a signed release form you if I’m going to use your likeness in any commercial enterprise. However, if I’m going to use it on the news (TV, magazines, newspapers) I don’t have to even ask your permission, let alone get your signature.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Copyright
PPP might be able to handle Copyright by © Pension Plan Puppets and anythng on it, but then all our posts would become his ‘property’, so to speak, if they aren’t already.
When it comes to original authorship stuff…like if someone translated a popular novel, generally the translator gets credit on the cover. Unfortunately, over here we’re all anonymous except when people use their real names, so we’re boned, so to speak.
Long story short, whoever lifted the translation should have, at the very least, mentioned the blog or that it came from a blog. It’s just tacky to do otherwise.
"According to the statistics, Bester outperformed his teammates in every league that he ever played in, and was easily the best goalie the Leafs had in the 1980s. Despite this, the Momesso goal was essentially the end of Bester's NHL career."
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/10/underrated-allan-bester.html
by BesterThanYesterday on Aug 20, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
don’t they really understand they’re digging their own grave with this kinda shit?
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
What, newspapers? Don’t worry, they’ll start digging up soon.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 20, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see what you're getting so worked up about.
They clearly removed the floating quotation mark at the end of the of the blatantly ripped off paragraph.
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Aug 20, 2010 1:49 PM EDT reply actions
I don't see what you're getting so worked up about
They clearly removed the floating quotation mark at the end of the of the blatantly ripped off paragraph
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
by SkinnyFish on Aug 20, 2010 1:50 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
Brilliance.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, well, if they’d just mentioned that Mr. Fuller read the Czech himself, this would’ve been all cleared up. Wait, he doesn’t read Czech?
The only reason he had a piece to write was because someone else did the legwork for him; if this site hadn’t translated the article, he wouldn’t have written the piece (based on the fact that he hasn’t denied using PPP), and he went back to the original source (and used Google Translate) because this site had translated the piece.
Yeah. That requires attribution in any field. We gave him the piece to write. Just because he traced it back from where we credited doesn’t mean he gets to cut PPP out of the loop.
By the way, this is the Google Translate version. It’s nothing like the quotes from the Sun article.
I don't see what you're getting so worked up about.
They clearly removed the floating quotation mark at the end of the of the blatantly ripped off paragraph,
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I don't see what you're getting so wor
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
worked up about
They clearly removed the floating quotation mark at the end of the of the blatantly ripped off paragraph,
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You're quick
I didn’t see this until I was finished my post.
by billbarilkodisappeared on Aug 20, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, that translation isn’t even close to being as neat as the one PPP posted
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
They never are. Whenever I translate something from Russian and get a bunch of transliterated nonsense and grammatical nightmares. You don’t get anything that nice without a) bilingualism, or b) a couple of hours with a dictionary and a grammar guide.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
This
is exactly the problem I had with their response. There’s no way the google translate and PPP’s friend’s translation come out EXACTLY the same.
If this was at a regulatory hearing they would be crucified for it and accused of perjury, and never allowed to work in this province again. It baffles me, coming from a technical field, how someone can get away with this under the guise of “journalism”.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
But it’s not at a regulatory hearing or a courtroom or even two guys lying on a heating grate drinking a shared can of lysol.
It’s an email exchange between a most-likely harried editor and some dude with an email address.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’m not saying its right, im saying that corporate lawyers and PR people can be extremely paranoid
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
And I’m telling you this won’t involve any PR people and I’m extremely doubtful the sun’s crack legal team will have anything to do with it.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
But it’s still “stolen” and “taking credit for others’ work”. Doesn’t matter what industry you’re in.
Besides, I’ve been conditioned to assume that every project I do is likely to go to a hearing.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s how I review our reports.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see what you're getting so worked up about!
They clearly removed the floating quotation mark at the end of the of the blatantly ripped off paragraph?
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Google Translate
Fuller ripped it off from PPP and he knows it and no doubt told the lawyers he Google translated to cover his ass.Somebody should run the original article through Google translate and send that piece of shit into James Wallace to show the answer Fuller gave him for how he got the translation is a crock of shit.
by billbarilkodisappeared on Aug 20, 2010 1:51 PM EDT reply actions
This doesn’t surprise me one bit and nothing will come of it.
The Sun may have used the translated portion, but re-running of primary quotes is common place. The fact that they did so without attribution is merely dickish.
Had they lifted any of the editorial content from PPP, you might have a case.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Aug 20, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Re-running of primary quotes in their native language is different than stealing a translation.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Translations of something are considered original works, i believe. (Though it is a problem if you try to sell them without royalties)
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
I was taught in elementary school that when you write a paper or essay, you cite all your sources no matter what even if you don’t quote them. If you so much as used a source in any way, shape or form such as extracting an idea, an argument, or even just “fact-checking”, then you cite it, simple as that so you don’t risk plagarizing.
by PLAYOFFS!!!1 on Aug 20, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh huh.
Also, I often had to use both a works cited and bibliography so that works I consulted but didn’t end up using were referenced.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Translations are intellectual property. That’s why if Penguin, say, wants to put out an edition of Tolstoy’s War and Peace, they pay an esteemed translator and copyright that sucker.
Identical translations just do not exist. They’re statistically improbable on a level that you wouldn’t believe.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Translations are intellectual property. That’s why if Penguin, say, wants to put out an edition of Tolstoy’s War and Peace, they pay an esteemed translator and copyright that sucker.
how much did PPP pay the Czech papers for the rights to the quote?
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Uhhhh
Look over there!
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
We linked to their quote and provided a translation for people who would not have been able to read it otherwise.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
They don’t have to be identical situations for my point to apply. Translation takes work. The reporter for Hokej was paid for his work too. Hokej then made that article available to the public for free.
As long as there is a link and a citation, there’s no difficulty.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
I was taught in elementary school that when you write a paper or essay, you cite all your sources no matter what even if you don’t quote them
That’s great for academics – how often do you see that practiced in newspapers?
I’m not defending the paper here, just pointing out that they operate under different rules in a different environment.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I have footnoted some of my comments here.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah. Also, it’s not like it’s hard to do or TAKES MORE THAN 5 MINUTES!!
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
That doesn’t fly in academia. If you tried siting every source you’d read that might have influenced your thinking on an article in any way, then bibliographies for every tiny article woudl run for dozens if not hundreds of pages. If it’s directly relevant you cite it, if not you don’t… and even then you have to be judicious. For example, if you say “lots of people have talked about hockey”, you then pick only a tiny handful of examples to cite – possibly the oldest one, a new one and the most highly cited one you can find. Otherwise you’d have hundreds of citations to just that one thought.
What you describe is probably good practice in grade school, but not so much elsewhere :)
Which is still more than what was done here.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
You know who didn't cite any sources in his paper?
Albert Einstein. Somehow I don’t think this journalist is in the same ballpark*.
*Though funnily enough Einstein stole relativity from Henri Poincaré. He was still a damn good scientist, though, discovering the photoelectric effect & all. Sorry, I just outed myself as a massive nerd, didn’t I?
to be fair
that was before there was international copyright legislation
by Goosemonster on Aug 20, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Having an idea and showing why it makes sense are totally different things in science.
Some guy: “I wonder if light emissions are discrete entities?”
- gets you nothing
Max Planck: “… And this is why quanta exist”
- gets you Nobel Prize
Newton himself said the famous line “If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants”.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, in my field you can and do often see hundreds of citations in a single article. If we’re talking about direct quotes, which is clearly the issue here, that isn’t optional.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
That depends. I read technical research papers that have Works Cited sections that are dozens of pages long. It’s just appropriate and, most importantly, not plagiarism.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed that it’s a dickish move and likely pinched right from your pages, but good luck convincing an editor that the translation was not (or could not be) their own.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
It’s word for word the same and we had it two days earlier.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Also,
The Google translation is as follows:
“The problem is his health. In the last season suffered a concussion, could be yet another similar blow to the head and could even end up with ice hockey. In this view, such an exchange for Toronto was very risky,”
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
And contagious!
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 20, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I know the timeline and I know that it’s identical; however, having worked with editors for 15+ years I’m saying" Good luck convincing them otherwise."
Considering the media response to correcting an out an out error (they’ll refuse as long as possible and then tuck in a small notice on page 4) and their on-going delinquency to appropriately credit secondary sources I’m not remotely surprised at their reaction.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Fuller’s email saying he used the translation (update on original post) should probably be sufficient for that.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless they are both ripped directly from Google Translate it would be crazy to believe one wasn’t ripping off the other when its a translation from Czech to English. We aren’t talking two extremely similar languages that could potentially be a fairly easy word for word translation. This isn’t Czeck to Slovak or Polish.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
insta-rec
In Lou We Trust: Continuing a saga no one really cares about
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 20, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
My source Dave confirms: “don’t see what you’re getting so worked up about.”
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Absolutely incredible.
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Aug 20, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
so green’d.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Winner of the Internet.
Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!
by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 20, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Winner of the meme.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
slow clap
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I LOL’ed
still am.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Leaving Plagiarism Aside for a Moment
I think Chemmy’s letting them off easy here:
We gather information from a variety of sources, including blogs, tweet, etc. Newspapers are not websites. We don’t credit links. The Czech magazine and it’s writer are the originating source of the news and thus deserve credit – not you or your website.
Sorry, but when the paper wouldn’t have known about the article without the blog and the blog clearly gave the paper a heads-up to the original article’s content, YOU CITE THE SOURCE. “As first reported by the blog Pension Plan Puppets.” Wow, there goes your word count!
To not do so is the same sort of petty B.S. that we see every day on blogs, in which someone feels the need to pump their own tires by not giving a hat or stick tap to the source of a link. When I worked at a newspaper, we did our own reporting all the time based on previous reporting by a competitor (which PPP clearly is in this case). In the finished article, we’d add “as first reported by the Washington Post.” No biggie.
In some cases, you can argue that the information is “everywhere” so there’s no link necessary. In this case, unless Bobby Holik’s uncle is sending the Toronto Sun translated articles about Tomas Kaberle, the newspaper stole a scoop from a blog. It’s that simple.
Bottom line: How steamed would this assclown be if TSN simply mentioned the Czech newspaper in its “reporting” today instead of the Sun?
by Wyshynski on Aug 20, 2010 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 12 recs
Except...
I have to agree with you except for the simple argument that a newspaper or any news organization typically banks and prides itself in it’s own reputation and credibility. Albeit they might not be concerned with the amount of noise something like this will make, most likely attributed to a lack of belief in the amount of following a blog might have, you would they wouldn’t risk damaging their reputation over something as harmless as like you said; a link at the end saying "as first reported by pension plan puppets"
Who gives a toss about their reputation?
If this blog was good enough to inspire their reporting, it’s damn well good enough to get credit for it. To deny PPP that courtesy because of some nebulous “we don’t do links” policy is to deny that a competitor broke the story; and to then deny that competitor credit is so it can appear that the paper’s dogged sports reporter is scouring Czech publications for Kaberle news. Which he isn’t, because he’s too busy reading THIS BLOG.
And if the Toronto Sun, or any Toronto newspaper, is ignorant to the following this blog has on this blog network, then they don’t understand their market.
You had me at
they don’t understand their market
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Eh they had a homeless man’s DGB write a comedy article in the Star recently, who knows.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the issue is more a byproduct of the openly contentious attitude the professional media holds against the blogging community, and the blogosphere’s push for more credibility in that pro-media world.
as you’ve pointed out, it’s a scoop (of sorts, as the real scoop belongs to the Czech paper who first reported this) and as you’ve also pointed out, it’s fairly common practice to include a “as first reported..” blurb in such stories.
were things more amicable, i could see this entire thing sliding by the wayside.
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, he just wanted to be the one who got credit for the scoop.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Weird. In DC bloggers are kind of received with open arms, in part because of Leonsis’ involvement and openness in the online community as a whole. I didn’t realize the Sun was still so, well, ossified in the pre-PPP days.
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.
by red army line on Aug 20, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s like that across Canada, to the best of my knowledge, with the possible exception of the Kurtenbloggers in Vancouver.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
I don’t think that’s entirely fair to say, but I do think it’s a little slow to change. Consider Mirtle, whose outreach is phenomenal. I think DC (being a very young professional city) is way ahead of the curve.
Yeah, but the way Mirtle started is pretty rare, at least so far. Credit to the Globe for being more progressive than their peers, though.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
“ahead of the curve” and “DC” generally do not go together… it’s a city that has perfected the art of naval gazing to the extent that they have contempt for anyone who suggests there might be more to life. It’s not so much professional as entirely relationships based (“Hollywood for ugly people” as the adage has it). Example: Back when the whole Iran protest thing was going on, the whitehouse press conference guy called on a blogger for the Huffington Post who had been doing enormous amounts of reporting on it… They call on this guy in the middle of a press conference for one lousy question, and the established media was in a snit about it for days.
Didn’t ESPN’s rumours page link to this article the day before?
ESPN saw fit to give the blog credit and the Sun didn’t?
Resident Capologist
That’s an interesting timeline.
Day 0: We post translation.
Day 1: ESPN sources our translation.
Day 2: Sun magically finds article on their own.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Aug 20, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pft.
Dave Fuller, more like Dave Fuller-shit.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuller at least copped to it. Wallace is the real asshole here.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, but I can’t make a pun using his last name. Or can I?
James Wallace, more like James Wall-ass.
Nope, see.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Wall-ass works. Don’t be so hard on yourself.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
It works.
In Lou We Trust: Continuing a saga no one really cares about
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 20, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Then that’s what I meant to do all along!
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Day 2: Sun magicallyfindsre-writes article on their own
Fixed.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
they did
but to access said link, you’d need to pay for the privilege. Since the Sun’s online content is free and revenue is ad driven, maybe their issue is in losing the reader to another site?
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Newspapers have readers? When did this happen?
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Aug 20, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually the article in the paper
I am so angry I will probably write an angry telegram toMister Wallace
i’ve noticed ESPN’s insider and rumor mill pages are surprisingly good at citing blogs, particularly SBN blogs.
by Natty Bumppo on Aug 20, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW
Sportsnet is crediting “A Czech Newspaper” and not the Sun
Please don't act like this comment is important
I e-mailed Wallace with this post to ask what he’s going to do to resolve this situation.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
i hope it involves waffles
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t comment to journalism professionally – my girlfriend can, but she isn’t here. I CAN, however, comment to academic standards.
Pulling what the Sun pulled on that article would have gotten me, or anyone else for that matter, expelled from any respectable academic institution in the country – no questions asked.
by Blue and White Expat on Aug 20, 2010 2:06 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah your transcript would have an XF and I don’t think any school would touch you after that.
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, and in reality, it would have gotten you a stern talking to and strongly warned not to ever do this again. Schools are loathe to go through time and spirit-draining academic appeals processes if they don’t have to.
I worked as a student advocate at my university and the majority of what we did were plagiarism cases. Wan is right: no one gets kicked out for plagiarism. You get a zero on the assignment, and if the numbers work out wrong, or if the disciplinary officer is a jerk, you might fail the course, too. You’d have to get caught numerous times in order to get kicked out. In fact, you’d need to get caught at least twice for it to be on any kind of permanent record. I suppose it would depend on the school, but I highly doubt you’d get booted.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Skinny’s link to just Fuller was more than a little too kind. Your CC section (or perhaps forward your already sent message to):
dave.fuller@sunmedia.ca; james.wallace@sunmedia.ca; kevin.hann@sunmedia.ca; lorrie.goldstein@sunmedia.ca; irene.thomaidis@sunmedia.ca; brian.gray@sunmedia.ca; lance.hornby@sunmedia.ca; terry.koshan@sunmedia.ca; rob.longley@sunmedia.ca; bill.lankhof@sunmedia.ca; steve.simmons@sunmedia.ca
This is all the Sun’s editors and hockey beat writers. It’ll get through to someone with some sense.
Self-fulfilling prophecy
The industry is coming full-circle now. With MSM guys having to move to the Internet to keep up with the times, they’re now becoming the monsters they’ve been calling out for so long. Self-fulfilling prophecy kind of stuff. While shaking their fists at those roustabouts on the Internet for being reckless and stealing others work, they now find it’s easier to scam off of people working harder at their jobs than they are.
Hooray!
by HockeyJoe on Aug 20, 2010 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 11 recs
That’s a great comment. It’s going to feature in the post I write about this after the weekend.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
And me going on vacation with all this happening…
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Must he?
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
is the email about waffles?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
oh! with peaches even :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
There’s also rabbit through a fine mesh too.
In Lou We Trust: Continuing a saga no one really cares about
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 20, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The full Canadian Breakfast!
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 20, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
i want waffles.
FYI: elk & bison are also acceptable substitutes (or additions!) to the rabbit portion of your breakfast.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This stuff happens everywhere on the Internet. We rightfully crap on Bleacher Report when they do it to anyone in our shoes but when you’re supposed to be a “true journalist” and continually have your nose in the air claiming to be above all of this “nonsense” on the Internet and on blogs, you better make damn sure your nose is clean. Ripping off blogs is apparently the new black.
Again, there’s no issue here if they properly cite where they got the information from, something which most blogs are great about doing via links and mentions. Newspapers clearly still feel they’re above all that. I hope they continue to enjoy being wholly irrelevant.
by HockeyJoe on Aug 20, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
make sure you credit HockeyJoe!!!
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s way better than the way I said it. Bravo.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Rec’ed for ‘roustabouts’
awesome.
And the actual whole comment….
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
This unfortunately has been a problem since bloggers started posting. On too many of the political sites I read, they have had the same issue. CNN would “steal” their story and not give them credit for the leg work they have done, etc.
News sites demand credit, but refuse to see it is a two way street.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
I remember one time, the AP quoted a blog post, and the blogger went and billed them for the word count, in proportion to the amount AP allegedly charges for reproduction of their articles. It was glorious.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
We gather information from a variety of sources, including blogs, tweet and stuff
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 20, 2010 2:17 PM EDT reply actions
Isn’t that ridiculous? So do we. Big difference? We ALWAYS credit where information comes from.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
yes, and an admission of thier guilt also
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 20, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Example
Given the information subsequent discussion from yesterday’s FTB, ‘67 Sound’s post, and this one I can only think that if Wilson doesn’t produce results this season he is gone. It’s pretty clear that Burke has assembled the team the way he wants, we’ve got the right type of players to play the right type of minutes it’s in his hands now.
This is comment and I cited where my ideas came from.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
keep in mind the point of contention here is the Frantisek quotes specifically, not how he found the article. (or the rest of the article, for that matter) the rest of the article is fine and would not require a citation.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
Where is this magical
and stuff
source he talks about? How hard is it get work writing for “and stuff”?
How can you be respected as a journalist if your sources come from “stuff”??
"Playin hurt, baby that don't faze me. I don't got time for pain. The only pain I've got time for is the pain I put on fools who don't know what time it is!"
I believe “stuff” translates to Hockey Buzz.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
nah, you’re thinking of a different S word
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Fight the good fight, boys. If I can be of any assistance, give me a shout. Though it looks like you are doing plenty to make your voices heard.
Question – Is SBN involved in this at all? Could (or should) they be? More just a matter of my own curiosity than anything.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
in a twist of irony, Elie Aintabi directly copy-pasted from my own comment one thread back
says PPP:
Isn’t that ridiculous? So do we. Big difference? We ALWAYS credit where information comes from.
Here is my comment:
it’s pretty clear that it was lifted
Here is a translated quotation from Kaberle from PPP:
""The problem is his health. He suffered a concussion last season and there is the possibility of a similar blow to his head and it could even end up as finishing his hockey career. In this regard, such a trade for Toronto would have been very risky, " said Kaberle senior. "
And here is the quotation from the Sun article:
“The problem is his health. He suffered a concussion last season and there is the possibility of a similar blow to his head and it could even end up as finishing his hockey career. In this regard, such a trade for Toronto would have been very risky, " said Kaberle senior.
Of course, it was Elie using it in a private email, so it doesn’t count. Adding "As noticed by PPP contributor “Peter de Chatham” would have been a bit awkward. Anyway, thanks for using my comparison Elie!
The most pessimistic Leafs fan on the board.
by Peter de Chatham on Aug 20, 2010 2:32 PM EDT reply actions
LOL
Well, Elie’s a Habs fan.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
was just about to say that...
lolzz…..
The most pessimistic Leafs fan on the board.
by Peter de Chatham on Aug 20, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
(posted in the wrong thread, re-posting here)
You have my support in going after the Sun. I’ve been reading PPP for over a year, though this is my first post. People put a ton of work into this website, and it shows time and again. That a newspaper reporter would not properly attribute the hard work of bloggers is shameful, and I hope the newspaper gets what it deserves for its plagiarism. There should not be a double standard where bloggers are ignored in proper sourcing.
Welcome
Thanks for joining and the kind words. I feel ornery so this will go as far as I can.
I’m not doing it for me. I am not doing it for Romdgpce. I am doing it for all blogs that are being ripped off by the lamestream media (credit: Sarah Palin)
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
PPP CHAMPION OF BLOGGERS
and lover of the ladies.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
seducer of many girlfriends
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
as far as Romdgpce goes, he’s really starving for some Canadian cheddar. Any chance of UPS overnighting some his way. :)
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
No guarantees it gets there as cheddar but I’ll see if it’s legal to do it.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I’ll tell you right now it’s illegal.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
:( Sorry Romdgpce
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
gotta score that Canadian cheddar on the streets!
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
If he just wants some good ass Cheddar there’s delicious stuff from Ireland he should be able to get somewhere.
Skinny: ask your friends where there’s a gourmet grocery store where Rom could get some Kerrygold cheddar.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Irish Cheddar is the best to be honest. Ate tonnes of it in Denmark.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Not if you mark the package “Non a food product from Canada”.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
and underneat
PS – I promise it isn’t Canadian cheddar, so don’t bother checking
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Romdgpce
Nothingtoseehere 1
Čeddarless
Czech Republic
N0M N0M
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I think my favourite part of how this has progressed over the years is that the MSM treat blogs like they’re run by apes, yet are still threatened and worry about losing readers… which causes them to pull shit like this, which is what would cause me to stop reading above all else.
It’s like when Annakin is trying so hard to save Padme from dying that he ends up being the one to kill her.
I mostly just wanted to make that comparison. Anyway, more power to you boys.
There you have it. The Toronto Sun: as good as the Star Wars prequels.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
HOLD ME LIKE YOU DID ON THE LAKES OF NABOO!
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Talk about going nuclear
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
so
the sun’s Hayden Christensen in this metaphor right?
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
wooden and intolerable ? sounds about right
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Boom, there goes the dynamite.
In Lou We Trust: Continuing a saga no one really cares about
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s like when Annakin is trying so hard to save Padme from dying that he ends up being the one to kill her.
I don’t like the Toronto Sun. It’s coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.
by Wyshynski on Aug 20, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
plagarism?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
er
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
.
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuller credited the source magazine (Czech hockey magazine Hokej) for the quotes used in our article. While he read the translated article first on the pensionplanpuppets website, he checked the original article and quotes thorough Google Translate. Attributing quotes to another source is not plagiarism.
This is my favourite paragraph.
It’s total lawyer-speak with the implication being “There’s no way you can definitively prove that we plagiarized their work.”
Logically, it’s a complete joke, for two reasons
1) I wonder how likely it is that a Sports Columnist translating an article from Czech to English via Google Translate comes up with the same grammatical content as an actual person fluent in both languages did
2) It probably took at least a half hour of someone’s time to perform such a task, when writing "As orignially translated on pensionplanpuppets.com would have taken ten seconds.
Resident Capologist
Even two native speakers
can translate the same document slightly differently. I’ve seen it all the time – I work with French speakers who will translate words/phrases differently. The odds a person who doesn’t speak Czech can translate the document the same as a native speaker are pretty much nil…
by Goosemonster on Aug 20, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
as originally found and translated by pensionplanpuppets.com
I timed myself. It took just over 10 seconds to type that.
Instead these idiots are spending their entire Friday dealing with a shitstorm they created and are actively making worse.
If being in charge makes you this stupid, I’m going to kill myself as soon as I get promoted.
Resident Capologist
It's the Toronto Sun
Enough said.
Keep fighting the good fight.
A Toronto sports blog, where unabashed homerism is alive and well...
Nice
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
rofl
In Lou We Trust: Continuing a saga no one really cares about
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 20, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Toronto thanks to Thomas, a long watch. From the beginning I believed it too, but it seems that the best players in the club want to go too.
Good job Google translator
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
that sounds almost EXACTLY like the piece in the Sun.
I mean, it’s almost verbatim…uncanny. we were wrong, he must have used google translate…
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes!
“Operate Coach Wilson”. Love it.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
My favorite bit
is that Tomas is “technically a type of defender.” If you want to get technical about it, I guess Kaberle plays defense. Maybe.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
Beaut-i-ful
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Took me a while, but I wrote my letter in.
Dear Mr. Fuller,
I’m both a little shocked and disappointed that any regular writer would consider him or herself above simple attribution when a story has fallen in to their lap. Of course I’m referring to your 20 August 2010 piece, "Kaberle’s dad predicts a trade," in which you used a translation provided by bloggers at http://www.PensionPlanPuppets.com , specifically this article. And just so you know, I’ve read your Mr. Wallace’s response (posted here), in which he assures us that your piece was more strongly derived from Google’s translation than from PPP member Romdgpce’s. But to double check the attribution, I’ve decided a little compare and contrast is in order. Feel free to skip below the chart if/when you get the point.
[Here I posted the entire graph that’s visible here: http://tinyurl.com/23uf5fw]
Every. Single. Line. Not one of these is better attributed to Google’ translation than it is to PPP member Romdgpce’s. So, Mr. Fuller, as James Wallace once said, "it’s not clear from your email whether you grasp the concept as it applies to journalism." Though you claim to gather information from a variety of sources, you are still ethically bound to credit those who have done far more legwork on the article than you yourself seem to have done. And while you’ve probably read the Google translation, simply visiting the original source’s website doesn’t just erase the work that Romdgpce does, and it doesn’t allow you pick favorites when you’re citing your article. I’ve CC’d many of your coworkers, one of whom should be able to explain the principle to you further.
I look forwards to reading the updated version of your properly attributed article,
[Name LastName]
Aka Bower Power
Marked as high importance, sent to the slew of people I listed above.
by Bower Power on Aug 20, 2010 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 19 recs
Oh
My
God
Damn.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
.
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
PPP ain’t nothing to fuck with.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow
Don’t fuck with the Barilkosphere. Jesus.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
DON'T YOU FORGET IT HABS/OILERS FAN
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
There’s a reason I don’t come here to start shit.
Besides the fact that you lot are pretty awesome, you know, for being Leafs fans and all. And besides the fact that my primary team is the only one worse than yours. =(
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Basically PPP is a lion’s den. Don’t come in starting shit if you don’t want your ass handed to you.
♥ you though
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
someone comes in and starts some trouble, we form up like Voltron in this bitch
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
More like Guntron. Jared’s the blue guy.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
by SkinnyFish on Aug 20, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
WOO!
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
wait, does that mean, at one point, i was inside you guys?
kinky
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I miss PBF.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
good god my internets broke..
great work Bower power
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 20, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
fuck yeah, voltron!
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Dont F*** with me
I’m a Habs fan, but I also happen to possess 5 tings containing certain elements. You think Voltron can defeat Captain Planet and the Planeteers? Then you a shit outta luck my friend
You
And the rest of the Barilkosphere are awesome. But you get extra credit today.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
You are KILLING it today.
But I wouldn’t expect any less from someone educated at so fine an institution.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I really lucked out, as I decided to work from home today. Let’s say…my schedule got changed around a little bit. =)
As an update, Brian Gray and Kevin Hann are out of the office until Tuesday, September 7th.
I sent an email to your public address.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
that is a Bazing and a SNAP
BAZNAP??
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I still prefer my translation.
verbeauty!
by A Lindros Jaw on Aug 20, 2010 3:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Newspapers are not websites. We don’t credit links.
http://twitter.com/DHSpeedwagon/status/21688727227
The Toronto Sun cited a link in this article. Odd. http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hockey/2010/08/17/15053826.html
Unrestricted free agent Willie Mitchell paid a visit to the Washington Capitals Tuesday, according to Corey Masisak of CSNwashington.com.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
A little bit different, I think, since CSN Washington is a MSM outlet too, not just online, though the article was. If PPP had a TV channel they’d attribute it.
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.
by red army line on Aug 20, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If PPP had a TV channel it’d never see the light of the day because the CRTC and/or FCC wouldn’t let Chemmy swear every other word.
Resident Capologist
you also cant drink on tv anymore
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
yet HBO is somehow allowed.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
different rules for specialty channels
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Any PPP channel is going to be highly specialized. In other news, I’m fairly sure allowing Chemmy to have a TV show would turn out catastrophically somehow.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
just wait till you see the “Jareds corner” section, applications for the ron mclean gig still being accepted
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yo
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 20, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
you can “drink” but you cannot actually ingest alcoholic beverages
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
So actors are like Metatron?
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
easy
The American FCC only regulates free-to-air television. Mad Men is on cable, which is not regulated by FCC rules regarding content.
If Mad Men were on NBC that better be apple juice Don Draper is swigging.
The Maple Leafs- making me certifiably insane since 1985.
by torleafsfan29 on Aug 20, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It's just not fair
All the seasons of Heroes were shown on BBC 1 or 2, but Mad Men is on BBC 3? There’s just no justice in the world.
If PPP had a TV channel they’d attribute it.
I think we all know what the next step is.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Holy hell.
You don’t seem to get the point. You didn’t write the article. It’s the intellectual property of another publication. We attributed the original source. Not your website. Get over it.
Basically he’s saying that since he sited the original source, whoever he used in between doesn’t matter.
Does he think all of these e-mails from different addresses are from the same person?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Wow, seems you struck a pretty deep nerve. I wonder if any of this will impact the next time the rip a blog?
PS you think their IT is going to block www.pensionplanpuppets.com now?
Then where would they get their material?
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Oh you are issuing a clear invitation to the dance”
- Bard Dourif – Exorcist III
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 20, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
reply all
Well that’s just not correct, James.
Plagiarism is not solely the theft of original intellectual property, but can also be the theft of an improvement; the theft of someone else’s "work." A couple definitions…sources, if you will:
• The act of plagiarizing; taking someone’s words or ideas as if they were your own
• Plagiarism, as defined in the 1995 Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one’s own original work.
• The act of plagiarizing: the copying of another person’s ideas, text, or other creative work, and presenting it as one’s own, especially without permission;
So that we can be clear here, these definitions focus not on "intellectual property," but on far more objective things like word choice. Romdgpce’s translation was a product of his word choice; word choice which Mr. Fuller then presented as his "own original work." That is plagiarism. Originality, creativity, and intellectual property don’t even come anywhere near this discussion.
But then, somehow I’m pretty sure you know all this – I mean, how could you be an editor and not? – but are instead looking for a loophole so that you can avoid giving one-line accreditation to bloggers in the future. C’mon, you can be honest. I think. Anyways, I see that my chart has been lost in the formatting below. I’ve provided a link here so that it’s sure to be an easy read. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=18oNfUJkMSymWyuaxVzkGEIvhSBIPSiQoKGs3XPFLkgM
Thanks again for your time, can’t wait for that policy change,
[Name Lastname]
AKA Bower Power
Anyone know how to get paragraph indents within block quotes?
I have a hard time understanding the Sun’s line of reasoning here. Coming from the academic world, it’s just drummed into you from the start that if you use someone else’s work in any way, shape, or form (original content or translation), you have to give proper credit. Apparently the journalistic world has different standards, but I’m not sure why. Or why they should be proud of that.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
/Points at Toronto Sun
HA-HAW! Your medium is dying!
by Marc Pilgrim on Aug 20, 2010 3:25 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I want to be very clear that Monday morning I’ll be posting an email you’re all welcome to copy paste and send on its way. It’ll be a Negative Nancy e-mail attack.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Aug 20, 2010 3:28 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Ah at least the Toronto Sun is good for one thing:
NNN inspiration.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUH3JQjcweM
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
oh my good lord yes
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
i think “Welcome to earf” works better, but that’s just me
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
needs text
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
you need to ease up out my face before something bad happen to you
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
West Philadelphia, born and raised.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
parents just don't understand
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Girls ain't nuthin' but trouble
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Now that's what I call a close encounter.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
Thats what you get! Look at you, ship all banged up! Who's the man? WHO'S THE MAN?!
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
YOU DID NOT SHOOT THAT GREEN SHIT AT ME
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
you know the difference between you and me? I make this look good
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I apologize to the people of Los Angeles Toronto. My behavior has been improper and I accept the consequences. I ask my fellow Angelinos Torontonians for their patience and understanding. Life here can be difficult for me. After all, I am the only one of my kind. During my incarceration, I will be participating in alcohol and anger management treatment. You deserve better from me. I can be better. I will be better.
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Somehow, 'I told you so' just doesn't quite say it.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
gettin jiggy with it, nah nah nah nah nah nah nah hey
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
are you an expert?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I gather information from a variety of sources, including blogs, tweet and stuff
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
This is giving us so many memes. I can’t handle them.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
It’s the gift that keeps on giving.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
rec’d for laughing out loud
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Would you like me to send it from my personal, school, or corporate monkey address?
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Aug 20, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
.
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
thank you
The quality of work that’s already been done by people here has intimidated me. Nothing I can write would hold a candle.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Shouldn’t the headline be Klassy with a K?
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions
The Czech magazine and it’s writer are the originating source.
What self-respecting editor is bandying about “it’s” as a possessive, anyway?
"Those things happen in sport," McPhee said. "It's not like it's anything chronic."
by bigonetimer on Aug 20, 2010 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 12 recs
I love this comment so much I’m going to take it out behind the middle school and get it pregnant.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
ill get you some boones farm
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
OH 30 ROCK REFERENCE.
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
WHY HAS NO ONE REPLIED WITH THIS YET
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
of course a Japers’ Rink regular would bitch about the improper use of “it’s” :)
Watching the O’s try to use strategy is like watching Mike Green trying to figure out the difference between "your" and "you’re"--Terpgrrl
Donation info for SAVES FOR KIDS 2010!! Make a difference.
you mean Jaspers right?
that place is great
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
of course a Japers’ Rink regular would bitch about the improper use of "it’s" :)
well, we have to find a place to put the ‘s’ that they left out of their name.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop telephonin’ me-e-e-e-e
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
the sun ripped off PPP, purple monkey dishwasher
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
what would Gaga do?
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Gaga=automatic rec.
Here's to all us girls who love hockey...and the men who play it.
by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Aug 20, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
and sportsnet
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/08/20/kaberle_father_on_trade/
Because of Internet Telephone, those f***bags at The Sun get credit for the story now from three different sources. Anyone reading Sportsnet, TSN, or Hockey News would immediately get the idea the the Sun is so dedicated to covering the leafs that they track obscure Czech hockey journals.
What a joke.
The most pessimistic Leafs fan on the board.
by Peter de Chatham on Aug 20, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Add ’em to the email list.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Interesting that they all mention the Sun because they got quotes there while the Sun won’t acknowledge where they got quotes from.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
the Sun is so dedicated to covering the leafs that they track obscure Czech hockey journals.
I think this might be why they’re so reluctant to admit PPP as a source, this is tangible proof that the members here do more research for free than they get paid to do.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I posted a comment on their story too
not much you can do besides that!
The most pessimistic Leafs fan on the board.
by Peter de Chatham on Aug 20, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
what’s odd is that someone there posted a comment saying PPP was the originator of the quotes, but that comment has been deleted on The Hockey News.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Guy should have trimmed his nose hair before the super close up shot.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
gosh, his bio sure makes him sound like a class act
A University of Western Ontario professor once told Dave Fuller that if a journalist hadn’t been sued a least once in his career, he probably wasn’t
doing his job.
Less than a month after Fuller landed his first newspaper role — as sports editor of the Oakville Beaver — two local businessmen were threatening to
sue him while a third wanted to punch him out.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
Translation – A journalist who become so unemployable that he eventually became a professor gave this douchebag professional advice that he now follows to the letter of the law, safe in the knowledge that it was his corporation paying the lawyers defending his plagiarism lawsuits and not him personally.
Resident Capologist
And nobody steal my translation or I’ll sue.
Resident Capologist
by clrkaitken on Aug 20, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think that implies a professor told him that, not that he was one.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
A journalist who become so unemployable that he eventually became a professor
That is the professor
Resident Capologist
Ah yes, my bad, read a little too fast.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I really, really doubt he meant ‘sued for plagiarism’, as opposed to something like defamation.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 20, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Dave Fuller of the Toronto Sun
A journalist who become so unemployable that he eventually became a professor gave this douchebag professional advice that he now follows to the letter of the law, safe in the knowledge that it was his corporation paying the lawyers defending his plagiarism lawsuits and not him personally.
I'm new here
but from your article’s picture, can I just go ahead & assume the Toronto Sun stole the entire Japanese language? An interesting turn of events…
Konichiwa
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
They’re much craftier then they let on.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Welcome
They are much sneakier than we thought…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
what can I say? Those Japanese know computers (after Dave Fuller taught them)
"Tell Sigmund Freud not to worry about his mother, I took good care of her last night. BOOYAH."
I’m new here
I think you just answered your own question.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
@HubSportsLive That not one member of the MSM has shouted down DAve Fuller yet is an abomination.
I just sent this tweet to Damien
@DamoSpin Dave Fuller and the Toronto Sun are currently tossing the reputation of Toronto media into the garbage. Please comment.
Resident Capologist
Please God let Damien reply “Get over it”
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Being from outside Toronto, and reading what they call journalism, the reputation of the Toronto media is not a solid one as it is.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Could be worse. Could be Montreal.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Could be worse
Could be Minneapolis.
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Aug 20, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Russo does fine work over there.
Then again Toronto has Mirtle so I guess it’s one of those “exception that proves the rule” things.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 20, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, go and point out one of the 4 competent or better media members we have here and make me look like an ass.
Everyone fails. The successful learn from their failures. I just wish we'd quit giving ourselves so many learning opportunities.
by WhiteSpeedReceiver on Aug 20, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Russo is but one man and although I like to pretend he’s the only media guy out there I’m sure there are plenty of mediocre or worse dudes. In every media market.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 20, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Being from outside Chicago
but being a member of SCH (‘Hawks fan first, Leafs fan second, sorry guys) I’ve heard that the Chicago media is laughable too.
pronger in a tutu? i thought that was the first thing they teach in journalism school
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Another letter from our Editor in Friend
This is getting tiresome.
I’m not inclined to explain basic journalism and legal precepts to you, so I hope this makes things crystal clear.
You lifted (stole, if you like that language) an article that you did not write or produce from a foreign publication. It isn’t your intellectual property. It in no way shape or form belongs to you nor can you assert any rights over the content.
Do you not get the irony of the claim you are making?
We do not credit bloggers who stumble upon stories produced by others. We credit original, source material.
The fact that you or one of your readers translated the article doesn’t change that fact that you’re seeking credit for the work done by a Czech magazine writer. Fuller checked the original article, Google Translated the entire story, checked them against your version, made his own adjustments to the quotes based on the work he did and wrote an original story.
I appreciate the work that bloggers do. You need to appreciate that we can’t promote your website for posting work done by another publication.
Have you explained to him that translations can be considered original works, and thus his analogy dies on the vine?
And that furthermore, PPP credited the original article, which was provided free of charge, whereas Mr. Fuller did not?
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
I’m shocked an old man could be so confused by technology.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I appreciate the work that bloggers do.
“I also think everyone who emails me taking issue with my writers stealing from them is the same person, because there couldn’t possibly be more than one who noticed. It is a blog after all.”
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
and Fuller’s adjustments to the translations happened to match what was posted here? Makes perfect sense. (ha!)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
So wait, he’s saying that PPP stole an article that the blog did not write or produce from a foreign publication, then a member translated it and credited the original source.
Dave Fuller reviewed an article that he and his newspaper did not write or produce from a foreign publication, translated it and credited his original source.
So either he just admitted that Fuller stole it from the Czech source or his comment makes no fucking sense at all.
Resident Capologist
by clrkaitken on Aug 20, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I appreciate the work that bloggers do. You need to appreciate thatwe can’t promote your website for posting work done by another publication.we are hanging on for our dear lives over here if people realize they can get superior hockey news without having to wade through the rest of the crap on our website we’re done for.
fix’d.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
As someone who can explain basic journalism and legal precepts….
This man is an ass.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Aug 20, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
made his own adjustments
I need new Defensive Editor Goggles. I can’t see them.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
…and stuff
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I have emailed James Wallace
He claims PPP actually plagiarized the Czech article. WTF, mate?
then where did they get the English translation from?
by Goosemonster on Aug 20, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, so if I read into what Wallace wrote he’s saying PPP plagiarized because they didn’t get permission to translate the article. Ok, so did Fuller, Wallace or anyone else from the Sun contact Hokej to get their permission? Somehow I’m guessing the answer is ne.
"The most important thing - to get to the playoffs and move on." Evgeny Kuznetsov
this is insane
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Greg went in and knocked some heads together.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
Ha
wow great stuff until I scrolled down and read the comments. Sometimes it takes an article like that to remind me how hated the Leafs are.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
Don’t read the comments there, though.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 20, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
the article made me happy (at least they got it right), but the comments do not
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
I warned you!
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 20, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I just posted this on their comment section:
I would like to congratulate Yahoo! and Yahoo! Sports for properly accrediting the translation on this article.
Well done, you have more journalistic ethics than the main stream media.
Keep up the good work.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
technically, Yahoo Sports is MSM, aren’t they?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
If they are completely online, would they be?
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not?
The Barilkosphere has a print copy of their work available once a year – the Maple Leafs Annual. Does that mean they’re MSM?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
the lines, they be blurring.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh, yup. In fact, “main stream media” is probably the wrong term all together for newspapers, radios etc. More like traditional media at this point, as more and more people turn to bloggers.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
the interwebs are powerful.
‘Traditional media’ might quickly go to ‘obsolete media’
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
More like old man media. Or “get off my lawn!” media.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that so hard?
As first reported by the blog Pension Plan Puppets and later picked up by the Toronto Sun, Kaberle’s father, Frantisek, told Czech hockey magazine Hokej…
Look how pretty that is.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
more troops
Add me to the list of long-time lurkers/readers that have come out of the woodwork to write the Sun in support of this fantastic site and its insightful contributors. My response from Wallace was stock:
The blog site lifted an article written from a Czech publication. We credit original sources, those who own the intellectual rights to the content. In this case, the blogger arguably stole someone else’s work (the Czech writer’s) and now wants credit for it. Kind of ironic, don’t you think. We did our own work as well on the translation.
My response is predictably similar to everyone else’s: WTF?
Wallace is copying and pasting his emails. I got essentially the same response from him.
by Goosemonster on Aug 20, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
This (cough) "controversy" is bringing all the lurkers out today.
Welcome!
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Proof that at least some lurkers do really care about the site.
by Goosemonster on Aug 20, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
true
But I was really really close to emerging from the shadows anyway…!
…what can I say, it’s the academic/nerd in me. Plagiarism gets my hackles up.
by Tempus Fidgets on Aug 20, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
The blog site lifted an article written from a Czech publication.
Are we getting close to libel, now?
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 20, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
We did our own work as well on the translation.
Cutting and pasting = work.
What a fucktard. Don’t credit a blog that does your work for you, but use its story. Claim blog “lifted” an article, and then “double lift” the same article for your newspaper.
I’m sure there are those at the Sun having a laugh at this entire affair, but hopefully there are one or two asking themselves how far their editors will go to defend unethical behavior and outright theft of a competitor’s work.
by Wyshynski on Aug 20, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully they are not having a laugh since it is readership that drives revenue. Or maybe this needs to be taken to a level above.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
Glad you came out of the shadows.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I seem to remember the PPP post
…properly attributing the Czech article with a link…
Just so you know, I joined PPP just so I could follow this scandal and add a comment of support. So they are promoting your blog. And good for yahoo, although it would have been cool if they had said “lifted” instead of “picked up”.
Welcome
Thanks for joining and the support.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I don't know about you guys
But I opened my copy of the Sun (that I got by going floor by floor and checking the recycling bins, as usual), and saw this.
by Jeffler on Aug 20, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
I am totally screencapping and cropping that lovely picture of Kaberle and using it at Vintage Leafs if Kabby is ever traded. Question is, do I credit Mark O’Neil?
don’t worry. you found it on the internet, so you don’t need to credit anyone apparently.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
wonderful.. what’s that thing on Wellwood?
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
That’s news?
I’m never reading the Sun ever again.
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
If you actually wanna know, I’ll grab the paper from the scanner in a few minutes. Too lazy to leave this room though.
I’ll save you the trip – it was how Wellwood’s still a UFA because the Canucks signed Maholtra
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
oh
Manny Malhotara.. the brown guy!!
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
And since neither of us can spell the poor guy’s name, it’s Malhotra. My bad.
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
Very funny.
I’m in an apartment building, that happens to have 20 floors with garbage disposal rooms with recycling bins. If I never NEED a paper, I scan through and see if any of the bins have any before going to buy one. Yeah, I’m cheap, but it works.
Also, the moms basement joke typically works better if your subject isn’t, you know, still a teenager
I'm done with this e-mail correspondence
If he doesn’t get it now, he never will.
I’m tempted to ask that you do explain those precepts, just so that you can go and look them up. You keep typing words, but seem to just hope they stand on their own. I’ve linked nothing but evidence to your attention. Definition upon definition that says your position is nothing but wrong; plagiarism of word choice is plagiarism. And yet all you can say is "Because I said so." I’d suggest backing your opinion up with at least your credibility as an editor, but as these e-mails go on, it seems to become worse and worse collateral.
No one is asking for credit based on the original Czech authorship. To my knowledge, no member of PensionPlanPuppets has spoken to Frantisek Kaberle Sr., nor did they compose the original Czech piece. However, PensionPlanPuppets did provide the translation that Fuller ended up using. As the wordage is Romdgpce’s, so is the credit.
Fuller didn’t check the original article – or, if he did, he certainly didn’t include any of it in his piece. All five quotes are closer to PensionPlanPuppets.com’s translation than to either Google’s translation or anything Fuller might have come up with as an original translation. I appreciate the desire to stand by your writing staff, but a simple line of "originally translated on PensionPlanPuppets.com" puts credit where credit is due. At least three different stories have now credited the Toronto Sun for translation work that was actually done on PensionPlanPuppets.com. I’m not sure what loophole, half-complete definition of plagiarism you’d like to write that would make this not plagiarism, but I’d love to see it, if for nothing other than a good laugh.
To spell it out, PPP used the Czech piece. We translated it. We credited it. Fuller used the PPP Translation, then checked the Google Translation. He then attributed the Czech paper while still using the PPP translation, word for word in some cases. And neglected to credit the site that gave him their original translation. And I don’t particularly appreciate that you’re trying to claim PPP "stole" an article it properly credited, while your writer completely neglected to attribute where he really got his quotes from. No one is falling for that rouse.
If I send you a copy of the Boston Globe every week, can I be an international correspondent?
[Name Lastname]
AKA Bower Power
by Bower Power on Aug 20, 2010 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 13 recs
I looked at your article on Sidney Crosby. I checked it against Hockey’s Future. Then I copy-pasted it onto my blog.
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.
by red army line on Aug 20, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Crosby?
What? Where?
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
That’s what I feel like he’s saying. As long as you check the article against something else and it vaguely makes sense, you can copy paste and not cite and it’s completely ethical.
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.
by red army line on Aug 20, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d suggest backing your opinion up with at least your credibility as an editor, but as these e-mails go on, it seems to become worse and worse collateral.
Yes. Yes, I like this part.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 20, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m kind of with mf37 on this one. It’s a dick move, 100%, but I doubt it is illegal in any way.
To me, it turns on the idea of what is the story? If the story is: Mr. Kaberle made some comments about his son, then it doesn’t really matter how the guy at the Sun got his translation of those comments. If the story is: Mr. Kaberle discusses his son in a Czech paper, then maybe you have more of a case, as it was certainly PPP that drew Fuller’s attention to the article (they seem to admit as much).
All that said, might as well pile on, as it’s an important example of how the blogosphere is taking the MSM out behind the toolshed and introducing it to Wendel Clark’s fists. The more exposure it gets, the better.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions
Legality isn’t really the issue.
The Sun used (as a part of their business’s value proposition) someone else’s work (the translation) without credit. It’s a journalistic ethics issue. No one goes to jail for that, and there are no damages to sue for, but the court of public opinion convicts the hell out of people who do this. I doubt anyone will get Jayson Blair’d over it, but if we make enough noise that the type of people who go looking for hockey news find out about this, fewer of them will go to the Sun, and that’s progress.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a dick move, 100%, but I doubt it is illegal in any way.
Pretty much. Also, it’s a Friday, and there’s nothing else going on with the Leafs.
Also, it seems as good as an excuse as any to attack MSM for being dicks.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I don’t think we can sue or anything although I bet SBNation could argue that they lost some ad revenue from the pageviews that went to the Toronto Sun.
This is more about them stealing the story of the interview which was in no English media before Rom translated it for us.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I bet SBNation could argue that they lost some ad revenue from the pageviews that went to the Toronto Sun.
That would be hilarious. Get that SBNation lawyer some work.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if you don’t win, it is sometimes worthwhile to go through the process.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait... like a moral victory?
That’s what being a Leafs fan is all about!
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
moral victories for everyone!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 20, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
And then getting credited all over the place for it on other MSM sites.
by Tempus Fidgets on Aug 20, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
It's plagiarism
The Sun stole the translation that was the intellectual property of PPP and represented it as their own.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 20, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Plagiarism is not against the law though. It’s more of a regulation in certain areas. I’d say it is more of a moral issue, but then again, Stanley Fish argues otherwise.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Plagiarism is not against the law though
No but they can totally make you redo your grade 10 history paper. Bullshit.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
If I plagiarise blatantly at Uni
I can receive a three year ban, can this rule also apply to Fuller?
But when it’s performed by a professional journalist, it’s not just a “dick move” either. He’s being paid for his work, and stealing someone else’s and claiming it for his own is a serious breach of ethics.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 20, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Breach of ethics is regulatory (that’s not really the right word), as well. It would be up to his professional order (or whatever it is in Ontario) to investigate and sanction him. I believe someone mentioned it earlier.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Ontario Press Council, yes. PPP said he was going to file a complaint with them.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be interesting. I just started bar school in Quebec and the first week was all about investigating lawyers and discipline, etc. If it is similar, (in Quebec, all professional orders are governed by the same code, but each order makes it’s own regulations), then they can take that information and decide whether or not to investigate. I wonder what the chances are that they will, or whether the OPC will circle the wagons and throw it out? It would be interesting to see if any editor from the MSM would be willing to make this a story, if it goes that far.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s the offseason
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.
by red army line on Aug 20, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
PPP’s got hook-ups. Maybe see if Eliotte Friedman would mention it on his CBC blog. Just a matter of shaming, really.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Good thing you guys aren't Habs fans
The entire Downtown area would be on fire
by PKSube on Aug 21, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It is not against the law in that it is not a crime, correct. Plagiarism violates copyright protections, and is thus technically against the law. It opens the offender up to civil suit, not criminal.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
And the payoff from such a lawsuit could enter into the thousands of pennies.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I’m a little concerned about the blogosphere painting the MSM with a pretty wide brush today. In all the frenzy of vilifying this guy (who the hell has ever heard of Dave Fuller before today?) people are starting to characterize everybody working in the MSM as an old man who doesn’t want to accept the Internet. This skirts perilously close to their assumptions that every blogger is overweight and living in their mother’s basement.
Just my two cents.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Aug 20, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Who said that?
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
There are plenty of examples of members of the MSM being ignorant of or at least arrogant in their attitudes towards the blogosphere. Certainly not painting all the individuals as such, but as an institution, the unaccepting old man is a good metaphor.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 20, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that’s the right attitude. And I’m by no means defending this guy.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Aug 20, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Question
does anything written on PPP (or SBN, for that matter) have a copyright at all? Just curious.
"Tell Sigmund Freud not to worry about his mother, I took good care of her last night. BOOYAH."
I think so.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
You have copyright over anything you create by virtue of having created it. You can negotiate away parts of that, but if you did, it would have been to SBNation, so they stole from someone.
Purveyor of Pension Plan Puppets Podcast Post-Production
by puckurgently on Aug 20, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Since we're on a citation kick today
16. Copyrights; Restrictions on Use.
The content on the Sites (the "Content"), including without limitation, video, text, photos, and graphics, is protected under United States and international copyright laws, is subject to other intellectual property and proprietary rights and laws, and is owned by SBNation or its licensors. Other than with respect to your own User Submissions: (a) the Content may not be copied, modified, reproduced, republished, posted, transmitted, sold, offered for sale, or redistributed in any way without the prior written permission of SBNation and its applicable licensors; and (b) you must abide by all copyright notices, information, or restrictions contained in or attached to any Content..
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
by chillin411 on Aug 20, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think copyright is an automatic right
so whenever you create anything, it’s automatically copyrighted (unless you explicitly state it’s Creative Commons or whatever, forfeiting some of the copyright). So if I were to post an epic poem on here & someone else claimed it as their own, I would still have copyright.
and if you created the poem, one could argue that it is like putting a poster on a telephone pole in town for all to see. But it was still created by someone. even if by posting you implied giving up your rights to it to SBN, it still exists.
/I am not a lawyer
"Tell Sigmund Freud not to worry about his mother, I took good care of her last night. BOOYAH."
anything written by anyone in canada
technically has a copyright, as far as I know.
but no pop
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, and it is the same in the United States.
Of course, SBN’s TOS likely says your contributions become their property, so by posting you are transferring your copyright to them. In either case, the translation is not public domain.
Since a translation is a derivative work, it is possible that the copyright on the translation would remain the property of the Czech newspaper, but there really is no way Fuller and Sun Media don’t come out of this looking like douchebags. If you are going to take someone else’s work, credit them. It’s that simple.
As a somewhat related aside: The Flames’ press release announcing the Heritage Classic lifted some of the Calgary Tigers history directly from Wikipedia. Instead of attributing it to Wikipedia (or to me, since I wrote the text), they said “sourced from the Hockey Hall of Fame”) – which is a half truth, as I used the HHOF’s sites for some material, but not much of what they quoted. The problem is that these organizations are so worried that sourcing to non-mainstream outlets will cause a credibility hit that they kill their own credibility by refusing to properly attribute.
Correct. Our work is copyrighted by SBN. They own the copyright, and the author is allowed to use the copywritten material in anyway they choose. If I write a post at HW, and choose to post the same article at ProHockeyNews, I can do so. However, no one else can do so.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
I'd just like to say
Hello Dave Fuller, and hello to all the other Sun employees reading this! Thank you for driving page views up on a medium that understands and appreciates it’s audience. Inclusive, rather than exclusive, is the key to growing your readers.
Dave, thanks for giving us hockey fans something to talk and tweet about during these hockey-less days of summer.
Signed
blurr
(but written by Dave Fuller)
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
I love Blurr.
"Tell Sigmund Freud not to worry about his mother, I took good care of her last night. BOOYAH."
awwww, shucks
i think you’re pretty swell too!
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
genius, even!
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Subject: Fire up the form letter
Look, I know you’re probably tired of hearing from basements across the land about this translation flap, but a couple of questions:
1) So it’s theft to provide a translation and a link to the original article, but it’s not theft to take that translation and publish it in your own paper without acknowledging the source of said translation? Wow, Google’s guilty of a hell of a lot of theft. Or, it could just be that translations are considered original works under the Berne Convention, irrespective of the original copyrights. What’s so bad about asking that it be credited to “Czech magazine Hokej, as translated by PensionPlanPuppets.com”, along the lines of what Yahoo! Sports has done?
2) Is the journalistic definition of plagiarism, or theft, or lifting, or copyright violation, or whatever really that different from the one I’ve learned in academia, to the point where this is okay? If so, why is that a good thing?
3) If you don’t credit links, what do you call this?
4) The possessive is “its,” not “it’s.” Really.
Don’t worry about responding. I already know what you’re gonna say.
Signed, me.
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
by Doogie2K on Aug 20, 2010 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 16 recs
OK, this, coupled with the admission from Wallace of using the translations from PPP equal a copyright infringement. Right? Right.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Did anyone notice that TSN credits the Sun as well?
I’m a Bruins fan, but I’ll gladly take part in your email barrage.
Hello Bruins fan. Tyler Seguin sucks
I think we were raging on TSN either earlier here or on the last post.
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
TSN didnt really do anything wrong, They credit where they got the story from.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Yeah but there was the whole thing on them not posting the comments that said the story was from PPP. I still classify it as raging
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Thats true, although I imagine the other sites are doing the same thing because they just want to avoid the situation all together. In their view the comment isn’t about the story and is between party A and party B when they are party C, so it gets moderated away.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
Absolutely anything
that discredits their article or reporting, or TSN in general, doesn’t make the comment list.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 20, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Believe me, I tried.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It makes no sense why they are deliberately being stupid about this whole thing. They clearly ripped off the translation. A simple "oops, we’ll fix it’ would have had us all productive today. But seems from the twitter msgs I see going around, they are still defending their position that it is 100% possible to come up with the same translation even after seeing PPP’s version.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
I would have thought editing the article to add 2 words (from PPP.com) would be easier than replying to 10,000 emails, even if he is just writing 2 different ones and copying and pasting them
by PKSube on Aug 21, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wrote two articlez on he interwebs!
Here are two nice articles I wrote on the controversy so far. Because they are internet articles, I can say that I wrote them. But I am too lazy to actually write them so follow this link and this:http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2010/8/20/1633888/adventures-in-plagiarism-toronto link to find what I would have written.
DamoSpin
@clrkaitken Sorry, don’t know what you’re talking about.
Tweeted him the link to NBCSports.com column, so that it can never be traced back here.
Resident Capologist
That’s alright. NBC Sports wrote this article, anyway. Or is that Dave Fuller?
SNN Sports - A theoretical Oilers blog (i.e. theoretically, I write stuff there). Link now 100% less broken.
was it by mr lawyer man in the other thread?
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
He really does “assume” an awful lot acknowledging he has no idea about Canadian law while making sweeping judgments.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Aug 20, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
He is still going over in the original thread.
Life as a Toronto Sports Fan?... *sigh*... It is what it is...
I don’t speak lawyer, someone get on that
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 20, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
If you need a translation, I bet Mr. Fuller could do it for you.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
I think he does make a valid point about the process going from the original Czech story to the story that ended up on PPP. I’m not entirely sure about the legalities of posting an entire translated story online, even if you have a link at the end to the original. However, to quote Bob McKenzie, I’ll bet five will get you ten that we are unsure about things like this because there are no specific laws addressing this issue in the United States, Canada, Czech Republic, or wherever is the proper jurisdiction. The law has simply not caught up with things like this yet.
I mean even with libel, the rules are different between Canada and the US, and they’re changing all the time.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Aug 20, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I can vouch for him
He’s a ‘Nuck fan & he’s over on SCH a lot & doesn’t cause any trouble. I don’t agree with his stance on this issue, but I’m pretty certain he’s not saying this just to piss you off.
Hit them where it hurts
I’m writing a little note next to the phone so that I remember. Next time someone from the Sun calls me to ask if I want to subscribe:
I unsubscribed from your publication on August 20, 2010 due to plagiarism by Dave Fuller, and the implicit acceptance and defence of said plagiarism by James Wallace. I will not be reconsidering buying your paper again until they no longer work for your company. Feel free to contact me again once they have been dismissed.
nice
my parents have a subscription, I may ask them to cancel it with this reason cited.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
don’t forget to reference the author!
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Alexa 3-month global pagerank
Sbnation.com: 6,801
Torontosun.com: 5,701
Someone’s sweatin’ to the sights in their rear-view mirrror. “Mainstream”. “Basement”. Ha.
for further info;
I’d be happy to pull out my Inside Reporting handbook and go through that, specifically the ethics section if we want a resource on fair use and guidelines.
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 20, 2010 5:51 PM EDT reply actions
I choose Business Ethics
The, uh, ethics of, uh, business…
..can be summarised in…
Yeah, um..
See…
Ethics are, uh…
You know, the… the thing about ethics…
Aagh!
That question was not fair!
That was not in the reading.
From the Movie Billy Madison, transcription found here.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Reply from our friend
Repeating the dictionary definition of plagiarism doesn’t mean you actually appreciate the nature of plagiarism as it pertains to journalism.
I admire your zeal and passion for the work you do.
However, you simply need to understand that quotations – translated or not – are routinely used by traditional media in various ways – full attribution (to the source), partially attributed ("told a newspaper) or not at all (the Toronto Star used direct quotes from Rob Ford, and one of our reporters on their front page this week without attributing them to the Toronto Sun. The quotes were taken from our website).
This speaks to the notion of public record. Ford’s quotes became part of the public record once we reported them.
The same is true about Kaberle’s father. The fact that a reader to your blog translated the piece, and that you posted it on your site does not in any way shape or form give you rights or entitlement to the content. Translating some one else’s work does not exempt me from the responsibility of attributing the original source, not your website or any efforts you made to translate some one else’s work.
If you disagree, I suggest you talk with a lawyer.
Fuller, by the way, did check and translate the original piece.
My translation: “I can do it, so I am doing it.” A picture perfect sense of “if it ain’t illegal, it ain’t unethical.”
Also, this gentleman seems to think I run PPP.
All of this is reasonable except
Fuller, by the way, did check and translate the original piece.
This is a lie. They could’ve made this go away, so easily, so easily.
I think we should get Kaberle’s dad’s opinion on this in Czech..
Let them translate it themselves
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
can anyone here send an email in Czech to the Sun? Just to see what happens.
"Tell Sigmund Freud not to worry about his mother, I took good care of her last night. BOOYAH."
I would google translate an email into Czech, but if I’ve learned something from all this, it’s how well Google translator works
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Does Fuller speak Czeck? If not, how did he translate it, becuase the odds are 99.99999% that he used the PPPTranslate engine.
Fuller, by the way, did check and translate the original piece.
This is a lie. They could’ve made this go away, so easily, so easily.
Actually, it’s not. The statement is most certainly fact: I believe that Fuller did check and translate the original piece.
I am also certain that Fuller then cut and pasted directly from PPP.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Wallace is saying that just because a reader on PPP translated the article, it doesn’t mean that he has the rights to the translation, and that Fuller can still translate the article without infringing on a copyright.
What he is saying is true, but his argument doesn’t apply as it is clear that Fuller did not translate the article.
Also, “I suggest you talk with your Lawyer.” He’s like a a god damn greenpeace activist, doing an illegal act and then hiding behind daddy’s lawyers to take care of things.
O/T - Toronto food
I don’t know if this should go in a fanpost or something, but let me know if this should be somewhere else; all the SBN blogs seem to have different unspoken “rules” regarding where to post random O/T stuff like this.
I was over in Toronto 2 years ago helping my brother move there from here (here being Glasgow, so feel free to read the rest of this in a Scottish accent if you want) and we went to an awesome burger place called Red Charcoal on Dundas Street. I went back this year to find it was gone, which was thoroughly disappointing as it was the best burger I’d ever had.
Anyway, onto the point: anyone know where Red Charcoal went? Did the owners close up, or move somewhere else? If it closed never to be re-opened, does anyone know where to find a similar/better burger-tastic experience?
Chatty Cathy
PS. I have no idea
"Hockey captures the essence of Canadian experience... hockey is the chance of life, and an affirmation that despite the deathly chill of winter we are alive." - Stephen Leacock.
Cheers, mate
I had a look for O/T-specific fanposts, didn’t occur to me you’d do it in fanshots instead.
FWIW
I’m not 100% sure if you can call Dave Pratt’s antics in the Vancouver Province the exact same thing, but it’s an interesting parallel.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 6:59 PM EDT reply actions
Fer what it's worth...
Sportsnet’s Kaberle material does not mention the Sun at all…
""Frantisek Kaberle Senior spoke to a Czech hockey magazine about his son’s situation…"
and the quote being an is ""In my opinion, I can’t see Tomas entering a new contract with Toronto. Not if Ron Wilson continues to be employed there. I cannot imagine how he will get along with coach Wilson, who relies primarily on aggression and stress. That’s not Tomas, he’s a technical type of defender.""
I saw these both on my PVR’d 630 edition of Connected, because I knew you’d care.
Please don't act like this comment is important
TSN said
“The Toronto Sun is reporting that Tomas Kaberle’s Father Frantisek believes…”
Please don't act like this comment is important
These are both
From the networks respective 630pm EST shows.
Please don't act like this comment is important
Smart move
Better for Sportsnet not to step in this bees nest at all.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
However...
Sportsnet’s web article http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/08/20/kaberle_father_on_trade/ credits the Sun
Please don't act like this comment is important
I totally got Cox to reply on the piece. And was pleasantly surprised by his response. [I linked the evidence chart posted earlier]
@DamoSpin Interesting one. Crediting the original source is traditional media style. It’s their story. Translation isn’t a source. That said, courtesy might have suggesting crediting the translation. But there’s not much courtesy in the blogosphere. Moreover – and I’m not referring to PPP specifically – there’s a lot of bloggers who steal from newspapers on a daily basis. In general, I just kinda wish everybody would do their own work, their own interviews, their own analysis. Orginality is always the answer.
Says a guy who writes opinion pieces.
Also, pretty big generalization that there are a lot of bloggers who steal from newspapers.
The blogs I read seem to be original pieces and not derivative. Also, I see a lot of people attributing source work.
Still, by far one of the most reasonable thing he has said.
But this still applies to Mr. Cox
You’re a dick.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, pretty big generalization that there are a lot of bloggers who steal from newspapers.
To be fair, there are thousands of blogs out there, and this is probably very easily proved true.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
probably.
I give them about as much credit as they deserve, though.
I only visit high quality blogs!
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too
Unfortunately, until there is some way of distinguising “bad bloggers” from “good bloggers” everyone will continue to be lumped in together.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
There aren’t any checks and balances for bloggers like there are for accredited journalists. That is part of the freedom.
The problem is, when you have to police yourself sometimes you get quality and sometimes you get crap.
Due to all the reasons discussed in the past (and I won’t rehash them here) I am getting a little tired of seeing all bloggers being painted with the same brush.
Traditional Media should stop trying to exploit the blogosphere and instead partner with them. Many of the best bloggers out there are doing this because they are knowledgeable and passionate and they are doing their best with what information they have available.
If the traditional media could funnel some of their exclusive access into these new sources of analysis and insight, Journalism and reporting would be revolutionized.
Unfortunately, the traditional media seems to be trying to form their own blogs or employ a few great bloggers with their organizations in a feeble attempt to retain relevance.
Withholding access will keep them relevant in the short run, but in the long run I see it hurting their business. As more and more bloggers gain access to sources through associations via email, twitter, in person etc the balance of power will shift.
Whew.. that was a longer response than I had planned for.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
heh
That is interesting. It’s true there are a lot of bloggers who steal from newspapers on a daily basis.
I think he throws in the info about their “own interviews” as a bit of a shot at bloggers – much harder for them to get access to players and players’ families than it is for the MSM.
That said, I’d think that unless actual analysis was lifted from a blog, there isn’t much anyone can do right now.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt there is a legal leg to stand on.
But Wallace doesn’t have to be such a condescending dick about it.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 20, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
Just saying I don’t really expect anything at all to come out of this situation, not even improved MSM blogger relations.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 20, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Thing is
If he writes, “glove tap to PPP and user for the translation” he looks like a good guy and has a whole bunch of new readers. Now he’ll incur our wrath forever. PPP ain’t nothing to fuck with.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
They get shirty
Result: a dozen new registrations here, a dozen folks cancelling their subscriptions there. Could’ve been win-win, but now we have #ByDaveFuller.
this
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 20, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i feel dirty agreeing with Cox.
still, the whole “they’re doing it so why can’t we” attitude seems petty, but his overall statement i think holds true; do your own work. I think that’s as much a condemnation on Fuller’s piece as it is of posting an article translated.
This is my signature.
by blurr1974 on Aug 20, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say >80% of the content on this site is original work. Sure, we throw up fanshots with breaking news, but rarely is it repeated verbatim on this site.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
If Cox ever includes a spreadsheet in one of his columns I punch myself in the mouth.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 20, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It also should be noted that we had previously google translated the article and done original analysis in one of the FTBs before we got that far superior translation.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
It’s time for Hokej.cz to sue Google!
Seriously, though, if they felt harm was being inflicted upon them due to that translation…they could request that it be taken down, and wouldn’t PPP comply?
In Dinglebarn We Trust
I’m sure they would, but that’d be silly because their website got about 100 hits from all of us google translating the article repeatedly that they would never have gotten anyways.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
Yes, I agree. I meant to speak to the “What PPP did is itself illegal” argument. As you point out, they don’t exactly have any damage. But if they did believe that, they can go ahead and address it.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
isn't one of the main issues with copyright
trying to profit from someone else’s work? or in some way harming their profits? a Czech article on a Czech website wasn’t going to get a whole lot of Canadian traffic, and unlike the Sun, which publishes as a for profit enterprise (or tries to and fails, if it’s like the rest of the industry) rather than a fan run blog.
Go jump in Toews Lake.
Aubrey: old German for king of the elves. Huff: English for...huff.
or in some way harming their profits?
Yes — making a profit or harming the market for the work. But this seems to have gotten them more clicks, not less, and there just isn’t an English version out there that it’s competing with (as you say). Though maybe they could argue that SB Nation was profiting from it due to the ads? I don’t know. I usually deal with works already in the public domain. I brought up copyright because that’s what sprang to my mind as proof that translation counts as work, not because I thought anyone should sue.
But if the Sun really believes in PPP’s guilt, here, it’s Hokej.cz’s job to address the matter, not theirs; and it doesn’t cancel out the shadiness of using someone else’s translation and presenting it as your own. They also insist that PPP wants “sole credit” for the article, which is just wrong. Anyone can see the truth of that by looking at the link they posted to the original.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Damien Cox
I may not agree with hardly anything he says, but no one can say that he doesn’t at least present a reasonable arguement, and i have not seen many of his articles that i’ve not been able to say “I could see that being correct, even though i think its completely wrong.”
Also blurr, you should thank him for responding, because that means he’s much better than a lot of traditional media members.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
fail.
blurr bower… whoever. they both start with b anyway.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
Own interviews?
Like the many he conducted with Ovechkin for his new book?
Oh wait…
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
by skeeter_dan on Aug 20, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
…there’s a lot of bloggers who steal from newspapers on a daily basis
Maybe his girlfriends have been doing the stealing, but I know for a fact that PPP’s hands are clean.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
So here is an odd question. I keep seeing third(fourth?) party sites like sportsnet give credit to the sun for breaking the story by finding it in czech. Didn’t the editor already state that the sun write found the article by reading PPP? Is sportsnet REQUIRED to report the source they originally got the article idea from or is it simple courtesy because they are doing what the sun did not. At this point is it the suns story or can I write something similar for a major newspaper in Toronto and only cite the hokej story?
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Their policy on source reporting should be summarized as “whatever they want”.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Having someone copy and paste a translation is different than checking something with google translate.
Here is a google translation I looked up earlier this week on Antti NIemi, “Niemi also alleged to have refused an impressive, multi-year follow-up cardboard.”
For what it’s worth, The Score has cited you guys and gave a link as well.
http://www.thescore.com/home/articles/58174-the-story-continues
Nice! Just don’t read the comments…
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
by Sergei Puckizin on Aug 20, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Extra nice
They didn’t credit the Sun at all.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 21, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
score!
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 21, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining. That was great to see.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Late to the party
Im sorry, i am late to the party… I think one way to get ppl to notice is all the bloggers should blog about this. So this goes out in open and more ppl know about it.
by hockeyphreak on Aug 20, 2010 9:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I’m really surprised at Wallace’s moves here. We’re not even asking for credit in breaking the story, but making it understandable. The tip of the hat that The Score gave us is really all we are asking. I wonder though, it took 2 days before The Sun put up an article. How long would it have taken if this was never translated by Romdgpce?
Now with more me!
Welcome
Thanks for joining
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
First time poster here.
I want to thank everyone here at PPP for reminding some hack what ethics and the canons of journalism are. As a current journalism student, it appalls me that someone with such an important job in the journalistic process can advocate ignorance. It retinstills hope in me that people do care about the backbones of journalism – ethics and the canons.
P.S. Yes I’m a Philly fan, got a problem, wanna fight, no?, yeah that’s what I thought. /joke
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
Yes. Lax rules are quite.... "shocking"?
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Brilliant caption.
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
All in jest of course.
Take good care of Doc for us.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
We love him here. He’s showing us that a man of Toronto can still be great.
:P
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Men of Toronto are always great
o hai joe carterz!!
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
SON OF A BIATCHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s green now. :D
In Lou We Trust: Continuing a saga no one really cares about
If the quality of my posts begin to get better, it's because i'm doing steroids.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 31, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I was poking around the internet tonight looking for an interesting angle on this whole situation and stumbled upon the story of the late George “The Baron” Gross. He was the founding sports editor at the Toronto Sun and how is this for a twist – he was originally from Czechoslovakia. By all accounts, a stand-up journalist and fascinating fellow. Google his name for several links with great stories that surfaced following his death in 2008.
Over at Vintage Leafs, there are a couple photos and a scan of one of his articles featuring Syl Apps.
*DISCLAIMER. Who has two thumbs and works in the mainstream media...this guy!*
Guys,
I love the community, love the hockey talk on here…but all this comes across as petty. To me, sites such as this are like the “wild west” of modern day journalism. For the most part what you find on PPP are intelligent, well thought out pieces, written anonymously. However, we are allowed to say whatever we want, whenever we want, without the consequences of modern journalistic ethics.
It’s a slippery slope. We don’t want to be governed by journalistic norms, but then cry foul when our rights are impeded?
In all seriousness, I would take this as a compliment. It’s quality sites like PPP that continue to push the “mainstream media.”
(whatever the hell that is anymore…ha!)
Cheers all.
However, we are allowed to say whatever we want, whenever we want, without the consequences of modern journalistic ethics.
Disagree. It’s a different kind of accountability but there is accountability nonetheless.
As for it being petty, work for five years building something up, have a much bigger business start stealing that (while admitting that they did) and tell me how you feel.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
sites such as this are like the "wild west" of modern day journalism
I disagree. While for the most part, all authors on SBN are free to write what they want, when they want to, we still have some oversight. The individual team sites are places where opinion is expressed. Just like, say… a newspaper columnist. Those guys certainly seem to be able to say whatever they want, and even make up the facts when they feel the need to do so.
the consequences of modern journalistic ethics
Are the modern ethics different from those of days gone by? Because I find it difficult to believe that. Cite your sources, unless they are using anonymity, tell the truth at all times, and strive to act in the best interests of the readers. Seems to be what most bloggers on SBN do for the most part. When we do not tell the truth, we generally have the forethought to let people know that at some point.
We don’t want to be governed by journalistic norms, but then cry foul when our rights are impeded?
Norms change, rights are irrevocable. While we may feel the need to change from a print piece to a digital version, our right to our own work is not changed. If it is, then I can now use the bulk of major newspapers’ work in the US, since I read their digital versions. I subscribe to The Hockey News in digital form. Do they now lose their copyright protection? On the flip side, if I print out a copy of my post and send it to my “subscriber,” do I now deserve the right to not have my material stolen?
Norms and rights are not the same. Women in the 20’s would have been shunned if they wore jeans. Today it is commonplace. Their right to do so has never changed, however.
Only conservatives cry foul when norms change. “Oh my God, did Will just kiss Jack? ON NBC?” Everyone cries foul when their rights are impeded. Or, at least they should.
“Pushing the mainstream” is not the end goal. Being accepted as equals is. When a blog producing new content, it is not fair game for the big players to steal. Thus, copyright law. Blogs are no longer the wicked step sister keeping the pretty princess from going to the ball. Blogs like this one are equivalent in every way to newspapers, and deserve to be treated as such. If the Toronto Sun wishes to steal their articles, or at least quotes for them, they are the ones creating a slippery slope.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
by BReynolds on Aug 21, 2010 1:45 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This should be a reply to “The Burnward.” Sorry.
Hockey Wilderness
Assistant Editor:SBN Minnesota
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Fair enough and apologies if I offended you. I should have made it clearer that PPP was the exception. This just doesn’t seem like a huge deal to me is all.
What's petty about it?
One party (Rom) did the work, another party (the Sun) got all the credit. Sounds like something to get upset about to me.
Canucks fans talking about the Canucks: Pass it To Bulis!
I disagree. While for the most part, all authors on SBN are free to write what they want, when they want to, we still have some oversight.
It’s about degree – which environment do you think has more oversight, a Canadian newsroom or an SBN blog?
The individual team sites are places where opinion is expressed. Just like, say… a newspaper columnist. Those guys certainly seem to be able to say whatever they want, and even make up the facts when they feel the need to do so.
Source? Citation? It seems to me that a columnist, or a blog, builds their reputation by providing insightful trustworthy content. If a writer does “make up facts whenever they feel the need to do so” they will get the readership they deserve.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Having slept on it...
I think this comes down to the Sun claiming quotes that are on the public record do not need to have attribution/citation.
In this instance there’s a wrinkle: the Sun applied their standard policy of using quotes on the public record without attribution to a translated quote, lifting the translation verbatim in the process.
While this is a dick move, the question is: does this constitute plagiarism as defined by the Sun and/or the Ontario Press Council (sadly, it matters not a whit if it fits the definition in an academic or regulatory environment; as applied to works of art or as SOP when working out of our mothers’ basements).
The Sun certainly does not believe that this is a case of plagiarism, be interesting to see what the other organizations have to say.
SBN should reach out to the web-editors of those outlets that are citing the Sun to let them know that you broke the story and that the Sun is using your quotes without attribution. To bolster the case, consider citing the Canadian Association of Journalists:
COPYRIGHT AND PLAGIARISM
There is no copyright on news or ideas once a story is in the public domain, but if we can’t match the story, we will credit the originating source.
While news and ideas are there for the taking, the words used to convey them are not. If we borrow a story or even a paragraph from another source we will rewrite it before it is published or broadcast. It we do not rewrite it, we will credit the source because failure to do so is plagiarism.
Using another’s analysis or interpretation may constitute plagiarism, even if the words are rewritten, unless it is attributed. This is especially true for columnists.
You should also considering getting in touch with the Organization of News Ombudsmen and you might want to send an email to Ivor Shapiro who writes the Ethics column at the Canadian Journalism Project
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
by mf37 on Aug 21, 2010 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
It seems clear (to me) that the Sun is in violation of this CAJ directive.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 21, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I doubt Fuller is a member of the CAJ.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
That would be a boom headshot moment.
Also include the BERNE CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF LITERARY AND ARTISTIC WORKS.
Formerly RyanGiggs11, currently a Contributor to SBN Philly // @scotkess
"College is only 4 years, but the Eagles are for life." - Ironhank
by Scott Kessler on Aug 21, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
as bad as my high school book report on " of mice and men "
Horrible they wont admit a mistake. Also its pretty bad with the journalistic integrity in America that I am used to, that even I would call out shenanigans. Give them hell
by fuck detroit from in detroit on Aug 21, 2010 2:48 PM EDT reply actions
PPP ain’t nothing to fuck with.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 21, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
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