The Toronto Sun Has Stolen Our Quotes... Again
by Chemmy on Aug 21, 2010 11:16 AM EDT
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PPP: Monster Loaded for a Difficult Year, August 18th
"At the same time people know how you play, so it might be easier for them to scout me."
Toronto Sun's Dave Fuller: Monster Ready to Take On Jinx, August 21st
"At the same time teams know how you play — so it might be easier to scout me,"
PPP:
"What I can think that can be dangerous is that everything is not new and exciting in the same way. So maybe sometimes you have to fight a bit more to find the energy."
Toronto Sun:
"The second season can be dangerous because not everything is new and exciting in the same way it was (when you are a rookie)," Gustavsson told Swedish newspaper Expressen this week. "You sometimes have to fight a bit more to find that same energy."
Dave, since I know you're reading this, why don't you just drop us an email and say "thanks for translating this, can we use the translated quotes?" We would have said "sure", as long as you gave credit to Rom and now sleza whose work you've stolen.
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Facepalm.
The cat: it is among the pigeons now.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Next up...
Dave Fuller’s expose: Patrick O’Sullivan – The Forgotten Free Agent
You mess with the bull young man, you'll get the horns - Principal Richard Vernon
by Biff Carrington on Aug 21, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions
Aren't they sick of this game?
Really… They using the same idea two days in a row? Will they just hurry up and start stealing from DGB.
Truly yours,
Hackey Berg
New favorite image
Rec’d :-)
"Seen Cincuenta" -- 04.10.10 -- Raw Charge.
by John Fontana on Aug 21, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Id paste them
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
by LeafFan1989 on Aug 21, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
WIN
"Seen Cincuenta" -- 04.10.10 -- Raw Charge.
by John Fontana on Aug 21, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Bahah
So good it doesn’t even need a title.
There's always money in the banana stand.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 21, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’re talking their right, yeah. The one on the right as we view it, no. Although it’s a bit hard to tell with the shades and shirts on. ;D
by CanadianMaple09 on Aug 21, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Copy or Paste?
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
by LeafFan1989 on Aug 21, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
yep, not as round faced
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
by LeafFan1989 on Aug 21, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Ctrl-alt-del when they go “High maintenance”
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 21, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
oh good point
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 21, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Copy’s eyes better, and I hear she’s got a nicer tush too.
by CanadianMaple09 on Aug 21, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
This is just pathetic
Who else in Canada (and the US) can we blow the whistle to and point out this plagiarism? I’m not talking about the hockey, I mean the journalistic bankruptcy?
"Seen Cincuenta" -- 04.10.10 -- Raw Charge.
We’ll have a more formal response on Monday. This is more ammo for us and we’re ok with that.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
But the law is not on your side if you do.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
In that case he is just biting his thumb…at nobody in particular.
You mess with the bull young man, you'll get the horns - Principal Richard Vernon
by Biff Carrington on Aug 21, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you bite your thumb sir?
If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.
by red army line on Aug 21, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Ay, Tis more civilized than the other digit.
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
by LeafFan1989 on Aug 21, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Next time something is transcribed for our benefit, slip “translated for pensionplanpupets.com” into the middle of the quotes. They might be in such a rush to steal the quotes (you know, being so far behind the breaking news) that they inadvertently leave it in…
I have no blog. Yet. But I do post interesting thoughts on Twitter [@dbfinch]. Occasionally.
We’ll capitalize random letters to spell out “Dave Fuller is a hack”.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
Or put a rider at the beginning:
“We are publishing this for public consumption, except for David Fuller whom we expressly deny consent to read. Dave, close this page right now.”
“Dear Mr. Fuller, whilst we here at PPP Amalgamated Heavy Industries and Kitten Ranch LLC could really use the needed boost in nose hair to blog ratio, we regretfully inform you to go fuck off.”
by fatassjackson on Aug 21, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps just add some original quotes into the translations.
“What am I most looking forward to about this year?” Gustavsson mused for a moment or two, before strangely responding “Definitely seeing whether the Toronto Sun is capable of providing its own translations, or properly accrediting certain websites when they do all the legwork.”
I have no blog. Yet. But I do post interesting thoughts on Twitter [@dbfinch]. Occasionally.
Next time something is transcribed for our benefit, slip"translated for pensionplanpupets.com"“Dave Fuller is a testicle” into the middle of the quotes.
The sky is the same color wherever you go.
by Steck It Out on Aug 21, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I suggest you make up a translation that sounds like it could be realistic and see if it ends up in the Sun the next day.
"It's always good to have vikings."
Proud member of the Oxford dictionary police.
Exactly
Maybe another article about Gustavsson, slip in a line about it being revealed that he has picked up a leg injury snowboarding and wont be ready to start the season. Fuller will base an entire article around it, and the we got him.
Alternatively, get Chris Hanson to make him ’take a seat
BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHHA
what a hack
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 21, 2010 11:45 AM EDT reply actions
Wow. They must have done it on purpose.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 21, 2010 11:46 AM EDT reply actions
3 reasons for this article
It was written in advance and they still ran for it
Or
He is now just trying to fuck with you guys
Or
He doesn’t give a fuck
Fairweather fans can go to hell
Equal oppurtunity asshole and a proud member of the PPPPP
Follow me on twitter: leafer1984
by leafer1984 on Aug 21, 2010 11:50 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
#2. It’s most certainly #2.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
Door #2 for sure.
Probably knows being a dick isn’t illegal.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 21, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You should recruit 4chan, seeing as they hate plagiarism so much.
by scrambles the death dealer on Aug 21, 2010 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
Check out the blog title at the top of the page.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
If History Continues To Repeat Itself
We are a couple days away from Dave Fuller doing an article on properly crediting translators.
by YakovMironov on Aug 21, 2010 11:59 AM EDT reply actions 10 recs
I LOL’ed
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 21, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Take pride in this guys. This just shows the quality of this site. In the end, every form of media feeds on each other, and it appears PPP has entered the mainstream conscience. This will happen more, not less moving forward…but make no mistake, it is a badge of honour. Good stories will be told and re-told if that’s what the public wants. That being said, what Jonas said will always remain the same whether this site does the translating or not. It’s a tough point to prove and a tough fight to pick.
This will happen more, not less moving forward…but make no mistake, it is a badge of honour.
I’m not sure how much of a badge of honour it is when someone else’s work is bandied about as their own without credit. That has to be one heck of an altruistic person. I won’t argue this isn’t a difficult matter to see rectified, since the only thing that can be proved outright is Dave Fuller and especially The Toronto Sun’s respective Editors are being purposefully obtuse about the whole situation. But having someone do the legwork for you, then passing off that work as your own conveniently eliminating the entire process in between is unethical, journalism or literary wise.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Agreed, but it’s not like he lifted Chemmy’s GF, GA table. Just seems like much ado over little, but that’s just me. If it were my piece I would just chuckle and move on. Again, that’s just how I view it. I totally understand the other side of the argument though.
by TheBurnward on Aug 21, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel the same, I wouldn’t give a shit over a translation (there is a chance 2 translations end up the same), but I don’t condemn those who do give a shit.
They claim to use Google Translate. Go run that yourself and see if you get their quotes.
They stole our translation. Period. End of story. There is no chance they got the same translation because they’ve made it clear they can’t do a translation.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
simple swedish sentences usually translates pretty well into english in google translate (the structure of the languages is pretty similar to a point. which is why finnish-english in google translator is completely mess) but anything more advanced needs fixing. lots of fixing
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
Just wondering....
With consent from Yahoo, how about posting the Ovechkin Interview… and then see if David Fuller takes that and puts it in the sun… that way u have more of a bigger organization behind u?
Get over it.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
by bkblades on Aug 21, 2010 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Color me unsurprised...
You know, I already had a bias against Sun Media. Especially since the “threatening-to-close-our-local-paper” part if they didn’t let news agencies write 90% of the paper.
But that? That? That is disgusting. It’s not illegal, it’s disgusting. i’m outraged. YOU CALL THAT A JOURNALIST. Yeah, I’ll copy and paste infos from unknown sources as well, so does that makes me one?
And the most disgusting is, considering their work ethics, I’m not expecting Sun Media to do a thing against it. :(
Best of luck to you, guys and gals, in this endeavor. I do have some faith in the CPC.
The Sun seems content to tell us to get lost.
Thanks for joining.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Welcome
Thanks for joining.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
What a bunch of jackasses.. Thier paper is shit and has been for decades..
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 21, 2010 12:20 PM EDT reply actions
Don’t be badmouthing the Sunshine Girls. That clearly is what applying to Journalism School is all about from the start.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
shoot, I forgot about that, kudos to the sunshine girls.
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 21, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a difference
If the Sun uses a translation from PPP here or there, like in the cases above, but credits the original source instead … shit happens.
It would be ethical for them to cite PPP as the inspiration for their coverage, but it’s the way of the world in journalism to ignore the messenger. This happens to Puck Daddy and Dmitry Chesnokov on a nearly weekly basis (and happened again Friday in the Alex Semin car accident story with the Washington Post).
So it the occasional parsing of a translated quote, I might not kill the Sun over it.
HOWEVER, what they did with the Kaberle piece was different. First, because they admitted they wouldn’t have found the story without having discovered it through PPP. They’re on the record with that, so the least they can do is credit the source that inspired their reporting.
But more importantly: They stole — call it for what it is — large portions of original reporting from this site in the Kaberle piece.
Yes, original reporting: The Czech piece was worthless to them without (a) the translation telling them there was news there and (b) the translation that cleaned up the garbled mess of Google Translate. Using a translator to turn the Czech report into something an English-speaking audience can consume is journalism; in so far as one believes journalism is an attempt to inform the citizenry.
And I like I said to someone defending the Sun yesterday: Had PPP paid $1,000 to have the Czech story translated, and the Sun took that work without attribution, we wouldn’t even be having a debate about ethics. Well, maybe the lawyers would have.
If you want to call that theft systemic, you’d get no argument from me. But Friday’s shameless, unethical thievery is 100 shades darker than the stuff listed above.
by Wyshynski on Aug 21, 2010 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not sure how, our member sleza translated this into English and Dave Fuller “used Google Translate” to get the exact same translation.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Hey Wysh…
I agree with you all, ethically speaking. But just to point out, PPP violated copyright law by publishing the articles verbatim in the first place. Translating an article does not make it an original piece, as far as the law is concerned, regardless of the fact that doing so does add value for those who don’t speak the original language. However, if PPP had been given permission for the original translation, then they would have had rights to that translation. In that case, there could be no question that Sun is in the wrong. Currently they can legitimately argue that PPP has no rights to a post that they had no legal right to publish.
I can’t just go publish Harry Potter in French on my website without first getting JK Rowling’s permission.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
So legally, no leg to stand on.
Ethically, work done by another person was stolen by Dave Fuller who claimed it was his own work… I think there’s a case.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 21, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
the quotes are news and public domain. they can be translated (as long as they are referenced with their source).
its not the same as harry potter because HP is an original creative work.
however, for the rest of the article, that is the creative work of hokej.cz. that is where the HP analogy does connect.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong.
The publishing of facts is not copyrightable as it lacks creative input. The publishing of a news story is copyrightable, as it involves a great deal of creative input from the writer. Any time you post an exerpt of a news story, you are doing so on a fair use claim. That said, whether or not PPP’s translation of an entire story is fair game under fair use, the Toronto Sun’s plaigarism is not. Low class move from a low class news outlet.
The publishing of facts is not copyrightable as it lacks creative input.
This is what I was saying, if a person makes a public statement that is “on the record” is that not then considered a fact? As in all of Sr Kaberle’s statements are “facts” in this public news sense?
(i.e. not ‘Harry Potter’)
The publishing of a news story is copyrightable
And the rest of the analysis/opinion in the piece is considered original (Savard, Komisarek analyses, etc)
(i.e. ‘Harry Potter’)
Now, the fact that the original post was an entire translation of the hokej article is probably not kosher, but it only violates hokej’s copyrights if they feel that it does. It wasn’t exactly an excerpt.
Pension Plan hosting an entire translation may or may not offend hokej.cz
The Sun copying excerpts of that translation without referencing the work that went into creating it is definitely a dick move.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you should read this http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2010/8/20/1633616/the-toronto-sun-classy#44891041
"I don’t know what it is about me that makes people think I want to hear their problems. Maybe I smile too much. Maybe I wear too much pink. But please remember, I can rip your throat out if I need to."
by Wrap Around Curl on Aug 21, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Hacks all around
Having worked in broadcast journalism and coming from a family of journalists, it does not surprise me in the least that a sad-sack newspaper like the Toronto Sun would stoop to these levels.
The Kaberle piece was over-the-top and far worse than the Gustavsson article above but both are still examples of plagiarism albeit at different degrees.
Just terrible.
A lot of people seem to think the Sun are hacks. Odd isn’t it?
Thanks for joining.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
there’s no question the Sun is a bush league tabloid, but i’m not sure this is plagiarism.
is a translation an original piece of work? if i translate shakespeare into italian, does someone quoting my italian translation have to quote me or shakespeare?
despite some nuances, wouldn’t 20 people translating these quotes come up with more or less the same words and meaning?
if they had used an online translator or had someone on staff do it, would they include that info in the story (ie Kaberle Sr said in an interview last week, as translated by Slavka our IT guy)
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
is a translation an original piece of work?
Yes.
if i translate shakespeare into italian, does someone quoting my italian translation have to quote me or shakespeare?
It would be professional to do both.
despite some nuances, wouldn’t 20 people translating these quotes come up with more or less the same words and meaning?
Somewhat. These are very similar and Fuller and his editor claimed they used Google Translate yesterday.
if they had used an online translator or had someone on staff do it, would they include that info in the story (ie Kaberle Sr said in an interview last week, as translated by Slavka our IT guy)
They wouldn’t need to quote Slavka the IT guy because he’s paid by them. They wouldn’t necessarily need to quote Google Translate but I’m guessing Google might not be thrilled to learn commercial entities are using their service for free.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I’m not sure about the precise legalities concerning your concerns, but I do know that in some pockets of the art world various translators of literature are held in almost as high regard as the writers they’re translating.
Having said that, I’d imagine a translation is typically considered an original piece of work, and I’d also imagine most translators would expect to be credited with a citation of some sort. Clearly a sports article is a smaller undertaking than an epic Renaissance era play, but the same principles should apply.
by Alex Grantham on Aug 21, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Correct me if I’m wrong, but for most literature pieces, any translation from the original text is accredited in the beginning pages where most publication information is found. I doubt it’s for professional courtesy only either.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Most translations have the translator on the front cover from what I’ve seen.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
the translator is always mentioned in the books
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
One of my best friends is an interpreter, and I’m an IP lawyer. As my interpreter buddy confirms, and like BesterThanYesterday said yesterday, the translation is a separate product that has its own rights. The term in copyright law is “derivative work” and it basically means the translation has two copyrights — one for the original source and one for the translation. This isn’t really a copyright issue — nobody involved has the money to start a lawsuit — it’s a plagiarism/reputation/code of conduct thing. But the same principles apply, and you are supposed to attribute both the original source and the translation.
Translation is an art of its own, and good translators are highly prized. They deserve acknowledgment for their work, same as the reporter who transcribed what the source said.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 21, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
huh, well i stand corrected then. i really have no experience with translations at all, i didn’t realize that’s how they were treated/considered.
and as chemmy said above, it for sure would have been a professional courtesy to at least quote the source of the translation.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Sorry IP lawyer dude. It’s true that a translation is a derivative work, and that it holds a separate copyright, but you have to have permission to make the translation in the first place! If you posted it without permission, then that work is an infringement to which you hold no IP rights.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
“IP lawyer dude”? Way to stay classy there. As someone familiar with Gould Old Days, I can assure you he’s not here to boast about being a lawyer, and I’m pretty sure he’s not spouting garbage. Besides, isn’t that how you introduced yourself to this issue yesterday?
you have to have permission to make the translation in the first place!
Really? Just to make a translation, whether I’m reading a Czech website or watching Telemundo, I need permission? That sounds ridiculous.
by Cluster on Aug 21, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Keep in mind that he’s been spouting off about AMERICAN copyright law for the past 24 hours, which seems rather irrelevant considering this is a translation between a Czech and then Swedish article translated by CANADIAN bloggers.
I may not have a fancy law job, but I am capable of doing basic searches on the Internet, and I found this little bit on Fair Dealing.
The Canadian concept of fair dealing is similar to that in the UK and Australia. The fair dealing clauses of the Canadian Copyright Act allow users to engage in certain activities relating to research, private study, criticism, review, or news reporting. With respect to criticism, review, and news reporting, the user must mention the source of the material, along with the name of the author, performer, maker, or broadcaster for the dealing to be fair.
My own emphasis added.
It goes on to list six criteria, and you can make a pretty compelling argument that PPP is above board on all counts.
Resident Capologist
by clrkaitken on Aug 21, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Calm down, everybody. Let’s have this discussion without calling each other assholes. We’ll get to the truth faster that way, and we won’t look like a bunch of idiots while we do it.
Clrkaitken, the source you’ve cited from is this. In fairness, you should probably point out that one of the criteria for assessing the reasonableness of the fair dealing in the article on that site is the “amount of the work taken”. I think it is fair to point out that there may be an argument – and I’m not saying I agree with it, mind you, before everyone calls me an arse and tells me to fuck off – that publishing the entirety of the Czech article, in translation, without the permission of the original copyright holder, runs afoul of copyright requirements. Presumably, if that were the case, this blog would have received a request from hokej or Expressen by now to remove the offending material. I’m not aware that anything of that nature has happened, though I’m not privy to the inner workings of the PPP Kitten Farm.
All of that aside, you guys are getting lost in arguments about what is and isn’t “illegal” – another term that’s getting bandied about hereabouts that is problematic.
Focus on the ethical part of the discussion, the part of the discussion that has to do with what the right thing to do is. In that realm, PPP posted its work with full attribution and took no steps to obscure the original source of the material it was republishing in translation. The same cannot be said, in my view, about Dave Fuller and the Sun.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 21, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
good point
jerkface!
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 21, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
So’s yer face! :)
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
To be fair, my rebuttal wasn’t meant to be calling him an ass.
He’d been coming off very condescending in his opinion on this situation, and I felt this information needed to be brought into the discussion because I thought it provided a pretty strong argument that he wasn’t right.
Resident Capologist
Tthe “fancy law job” part of your comment is probably not called for. There are a number of lawyers who frequent this site, including myself. We know a few things about the law, because we went to school to learn them. I don’t practice in the area of intellectual property, so I don’t pretend to be an authority on the subject, but I know from what I learned in school that there’s a lot more to it than just the passage on “fair dealing” that you found on the internet (though it certainly appears that the concept of fair dealing, as elaborated upon in statute and the jurisprudence, would play a major role in the resolution of any dispute about copyright here).
My own post is meant more to draw everybody’s attention to the fact that (a) the copyright issue as between PPP and Hokej/Expressen is just that – between them, if it exists at all; (b) if there is a dispute in that regard, there are an awful lot more shades of gray than just black and white, I suspect; and © focussing on the copyright thing is totally missing the point of the Sun’s apparently AWOL journalistic ethics. Regardless of whether PPP had the right to post what it did, the Sun ought not to be presenting someone else’s work as their own. Period.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
by jrwendelman on Aug 21, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
O, the unintentional comedy of my c in parentheses turning up as © automagically!
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
This is what I'd like to emphasize
focussing on the copyright thing is totally missing the point of the Sun’s apparently AWOL journalistic ethics. Regardless of whether PPP had the right to post what it did, the Sun ought not to be presenting someone else’s work as their own. Period.
The Sun is not being sued by a lawyer.
They took the work of two of the people who post here, re-printed it, and then claimed that they themselves had created it with the help of google translate.
That’s pretty reprehensible.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 21, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s the law on translations:
3. (1) For the purposes of this Act, "copyright", in relation to a work, means the sole right to produce or reproduce the work or any substantial part thereof in any material form whatever, to perform the work or any substantial part thereof in public or, if the work is unpublished, to publish the work or any substantial part thereof, and includes the sole right
(a) to produce, reproduce, perform or publish any translation of the work,
(b) in the case of a dramatic work, to convert it into a novel or other non-dramatic work,
© in the case of a novel or other non-dramatic work, or of an artistic work, to convert it into a dramatic work, by way of performance in public or otherwise,
(d) in the case of a literary, dramatic or musical work, to make any sound recording, cinematograph film or other contrivance by means of which the work may be mechanically reproduced or performed,
(e) in the case of any literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, to reproduce, adapt and publicly present the work as a cinematographic work,
(f) in the case of any literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, to communicate the work to the public by telecommunication,
(g) to present at a public exhibition, for a purpose other than sale or hire, an artistic work created after June 7, 1988, other than a map, chart or plan,
(h) in the case of a computer program that can be reproduced in the ordinary course of its use, other than by a reproduction during its execution in conjunction with a machine, device or computer, to rent out the computer program, and
(i) in the case of a musical work, to rent out a sound recording in which the work is embodied,
and to authorize any such acts.
Source: the Copyright Act (Canada)
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright, now, Beantown, I’ve defended you in a couple of places on the blog.
You have correctly copied and pasted the applicable section of the Copyright Act. You know as well as I do that it’s only a starting point for the discussion about what’s permissible and what’s not. That’s where the notion of fair dealing walks in the door. What follows is a lengthy discussion about the purposes of PPP’s posting, etc. etc. etc., all in the context of case law that has been decided on these points. Case law that may, but probably does not resolve the matter definitively and beyond a shadow of a doubt.
If you’ve been to law school, you also ought to know a thing or to about mixing up the issues. Even if there has been an infringement of copyright, that fact contributes nothing to a discussion about the ethical responsibilities of the Sun reporter.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
Show me a case where including the entire text of an article without any additional analysis is considered fair dealing. That wouldn’t satisfy 29.2.
I agree with you on mixing up the issues… but if people tell me I’m wrong, I will defend myself! Because I’m right!
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s Saturday, and I don’t care to spend my day doing legal research looking for a case on a point that I’ve just indicated is irrelevant to the main topic of discussion. I value my spare time more than that.
But if you look at the Supreme Court’s leading ruling on fair dealing, it is clear that the amount of material re-printed is only one of several criteria used to assess the fairness of the dealing. The force of logic ought to tell you that the Supreme Court envisions at least the possibility that 100% of the material might be reproduced without infringing the owner’s subsisting copyright.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
I know that the amount of material copied is only one of several factors, and I’d guess that there wouldn’t be any great direct precedent on a case like this because stuff like this probably happens all the time in the blogosphere and most would not care, let alone put up the effort to fight this to that level. But you seriously think the Supreme Court would accept that if one news service republishes material from another newservice in its entirety, but in translation, without adding or analysing anything, this would be acceptable fair dealing?
So if I just translate articles from the globe and mail every day into French and publish it online, on my website, where I make money off the ads (as little as that may be) that would be acceptable?
Honestly?
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 21, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
So if I just translate articles from the globe and mail every day into French and publish it online, on my website, where I make money off the ads (as little as that may be) that would be acceptable?
Honestly?
In my completely non-legal opinion, but based on what has gone on with this particular situation, I say yes, it is acceptable in my opinion if:
(1) The Globe and Mail doesn’t provide said articles in French.
(2) You fully credit the source where you post it.
(3) The primary benefit of you providing the translation is for your readers, who otherwise wouldn’t have access to the articles (or wouldn’t be able to understand them because they were originally published in a foreign language)
by CanadianMaple09 on Aug 22, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s fair enough. Again, I’m only stating what the law is, not what it should be. I tend to agree with your points morally, but I’m pretty certain the law would not.
by Beantown Canuck on Aug 22, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, I don’t think PPP really has a legal leg to stand on, which is fine.
It isn’t about stating that what the Sun has done is illegal, it is just a discourteous and ethically poor thing that they have done.
What I am most pissed about is that they outright lied about using google translator to assemble their translation.
Sad and pathetic.
I think a representative from PPP should send a letter to the Czech newspaper apologizing for translating their story into English and ask them if they would like PPP to remove it from the site.
I can’t say I know what they would write back, but I doubt they are worried about losing residuals because of the translation and post.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 21, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Although they may be interested to learn that a ‘Newspaper’ had pretty much used the translation and used it as part of their paid for content.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 21, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
IMHO, whether or not PPP lacks permission to post the translation is up to Hokej. It’s not up to the Sun to determine for themselves whether or not PPP deserves a copyright, and they should not simply assume it doesn’t apply. In fact, I don’t see how PPP’s copyright is invalidated whether or not they have the right to post that copyrighted material. It remains the intellectual property of the translator.
Regardless of that, the Sun is in error because they did not quote Hokej, or their quotes would have been written in Czech. Languages are not interchangeable. They quoted PPP’s translation, which is a different work.
I've been looking at the sky
by Back In Black on Aug 21, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry IP lawyer dude. It’s true that a translation is a derivative work, and that it holds a separate copyright, but you have to have permission to make the translation in the first place! If you posted it without permission, then that work is an infringement to which you hold no IP rights.
What you say may or may not be true, but it certainly misses the point. I don’t know the Canadian law on reproducing Czech articles in a derivative form. But I am sure that the translation as an independent derivative work gets its own protection, separate and apart from any protection the original article is entitled to. It’s entitled to that protection whether permission was obtained for the translation or not. And more importantly, I did say:
This isn’t really a copyright issue … it’s a plagiarism/reputation/code of conduct thing.
I stand by that. Nobody’s talking about any lawsuits. If this had happened in America where I’m based, I doubt I could write a complaint for less in attorneys fees than the most PPP might possibly recover in damages for the infringement of the copyright in the translation — much less take any depositions or do any discovery or hold a trial. In a situation like this, litigation is just crazy.
The interesting issue here is the ethical issue. And there’s not much doubt there — the Sun should have attributed both the original article and the translation.
Atta dinnin stick a who!
by Gould Old Days on Aug 22, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
despite some nuances, wouldn’t 20 people translating these quotes come up with more or less the same words and meaning?
Stay on target.
It wasn’t 20 people, it was one person who inspired the Sun’s article and did the work for them, yet didn’t receive any credit for their part in breaking the story.
Let’s save the Shakespeare debate for another day. Steve Simmons is pulling rank on me via Twitter…
i am on target. i was asking a hypothetical question about translation. i thought that’s what we were talking about here.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Your hypotheticals muddy the issue. Shakespeare is public domain, translated 1,000 times in 10,000 different languages. If I wanted to compare translations to see which one worked, and for accuracy, I could.
In this case, there were two choices: An exclusive translation on a blog and gibberish from Google Translate. And the went for another reporter’s work without citation rather than the gibberish.
I just think the debate can get out of hand if we start dealing with the “What ifs…”
sorry man… these are the thoughts that popped in my head. i’m sorry they ‘muddy’ the issue for you. i think it was muddy before i got here though.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Not sure what’s muddy about our being mad about someone taking our content, admitting to taking our content, not sourcing us, telling us they will never source us and telling us to get over it.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Aug 21, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
sorry, it was muddy to me then. i didn’t know how translations were typically treated/thought of in the literary world. i stood corrected above, and got scolded for posing some hypotheticals that were relevant to my gaining an understanding of the issue. i agree, as a professional courtesy they should have credited the story to you (well, not you… you didn’t do the translation).
anyways, i’m out of here, you guys are way too cranky today.
Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.
Sorry that we’re not happier about people stealing our work.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
don’t forget the lying!
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 21, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
In this case, there were two choices: An exclusive translation on a blog and gibberish from Google Translate. And the went for another reporter’s work without citation rather than the gibberish.
That’s the crux of the issue right there. That, and nothing else, is the problem with this whole issue, which The Sun doesn’t appear to see as anything wrong.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
What if we christen Dave Fuller with a new nickname (a la ‘Malkin to the Kings’)?
Let’s say… Dave “Accused Plagiarist” Fuller?
Its not libelous because it’s true (he’s been accused). And if he says its an unfair characterization, then just tell him to ‘get over it’.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 21, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Dave “Google Translate” Fuller
Resident Capologist
by clrkaitken on Aug 21, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
win
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 21, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
it is crazy how classless the sun is coming off during this whole thing. Continually shooting themselves in the foot.
David Fuller has clearly done something that at a minimum is unethical. His editor telling us to “get over it” and other members of the Sun rushing to his defense is fantastic to see.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
It is indescribable. So bush league.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 21, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
My favorite part is how late they have been on repeating the stories. However,
my inner me is projecting this whole fiasco onto a broader societal canvas. How can we trust our major sources of media anymore? They’re playing the big boy card and saying “get over it” I’m not even involved in this and i feel like I’m being bullied.
I won’t condemn the other members of the Sun defending their colleague, per se. I would hope my peers would stand up for me, too. But I’m not sure I want Steve Simmons to come aid me when he’s writing absolutely factually incorrect statements.
Ridiculous what he’s tweeting about right now. I cannot believe a columnist, who is in every respect totally different from a reporter, is trying to hand out plagiarism information to people.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Yea, I get coming to his defense but there’s a line.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 21, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Simmons is comparing apples to oranges right now. I’ve always thought VERY lowly of him, but is he really THAT stupid?
is he really THAT stupid?
Based on evidence I have accumulated over years of reading his columns and watching him on TSN’s “The Reporters”, I am forced to conclude that the answer to this question is fairly obvious.
jrwendelman
The Artist Formerly Known as "Junior", who blogs at heroesinrehab.ca/blog
"But if someone so eager to engage into fist talk, we can always meet after season end in Minsk." (Mikhail Grabovski and a well-meaning but not particularly skillful translator)
David Fuller ADMITTED that he read our post and used it to “correct his translation”. There’s nothing to argue about. There’s nothing to defend.
He has admitted his guilt and still his colleagues defend his right to steal from us by saying we’d understand if we were real journalists.
We don’t have to be real journalists. We link to everything we post that we didn’t make and give credit to the people who made that content. I don’t need to have gone to journalism school to understand the ethical implications here.
I’d also like to say, just once, that this shit about journalism school is a laughable argument. My lack of journalism training isn’t because I was too stupid to go to liberal arts school.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Good point:
“Heart surgery is very complex and you should not attempt it without having gone to medical school.”
Bad point:
“You don’t understand plagiarism. Sure we took your content and didn’t even have the courtesy to mention your name but you’d understand had you gone to journalism school.”
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
"You don’t understand plagiarism. Sure we took your content and didn’t even have the courtesy to mention your name but you’d understand had you gone to journalism school."
And where did I say I agree with Simmons’ incorrect definition of plagiarism when I clearly stated that the rules for being a columnist is completely different from a reporter?
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Right, so I don’t see why you need to clarify what Simmons is saying as wrong as a response. Hopefully, everyone knows that.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I’m tired of the attitude that as a blogger I don’t have any idea of what I’m doing.
I could have done a lot less work in college to get a journalism degree.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Which isn’t to say all journalists are dumb or anything like that. There are tons of journalists out there doing amazing work that I could never approach doing in a million years.
But for hacks like Dave Fuller I think it’s a fair characterization.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
As am I. And I’m with you guys all the way here. I’m just trying to understand why someone like Simmons and the rest of Sun media are defending their fellow Sun dudes. Maybe it’s for friendship, but I’m going to assume it’s because of any legal ramifications. By having a unified front, no matter how wrong they are, it’s easier for them to continue what they were doing in the first place.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I’m curious to know which J-School class teaches how to end a sentence …
Resident Capologist
by clrkaitken on Aug 21, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
David Fuller ADMITTED that he read our post and used it to "correct his translation". There’s nothing to argue about. There’s nothing to defend.
But didn’t Fuller admitted to that through e-mail? I don’t think Simmons was privy to HIS response. So yes, Simmons through his twisted definition of plagiarism (which we established is wrong and full of shit), is defending for his colleague as the right thing to do for his honour or whatever. That’s all I’m arguing for in this case. I said nothing about the context of his argument.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
If you’d blindly defend anything you’re making a poor choice.
I wouldn’t defend any of my colleagues in engineering without knowing all of the facts.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Well, clearly Simmons would. Or at least he’s using the limited knowledge he has on the subject for his right to defend. Again, I don’t know if Simmons knows the whole situation, especially about Fuller and Wallace’s admission that their story was from this site. That was determined through e-mails from users. Either way, Simmons is a moron, in no exact terms, and this doesn’t change that fact.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
Random Steve simmons column.. Translation attempt
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 21, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
PPP Rule #5 – Fact check
If you don’t know the whole situation, it’s best to remain silent until all the facts are known before speaking on it.
In my work, if I defend someone’s mistake without knowing all the facts, I could lose my job.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
Using your role as a perceived expert on a situation to influence the decisions of others without knowing all of the facts is unethical.
Every profession has a responsibility to the honor of the profession at large to fact their colleagues before defending their actions.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
“fact CHECK their colleagues”
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
In my work, if I defend someone’s mistake without knowing all the facts, I could lose my job.
As it should be. But journalism is a different profession altogether and like it or not, they have rules that don’t necessarily follow the same logical line of thinking. Doesn’t mean the industry needs to change or at least, be more amenable to change, but our words aren’t binding to their technicalities.
Supporter of the Sergei Berezin "Give and Go" - You give me puck, then you go to hell
I went to journalism school.
They’re full of it.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.
journalism AND architecture school? Woah.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 21, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I woke up today and had the strangest case of internet Deja Vu. (Can someone translate that for Dave?)
according to goggle translate – french to english – deja vu translates to ‘deja vu’.
the waters become murkier and murkier…
by somny on Aug 21, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ESPN_Burnside
Must admit am immediately suspicious of virtually all stories originating from Russia, Czech Republic, wherever, and translated to English.
ESPN_Burnside
Rarely are the circumstances of the interview conveyed via translation, the tone, the relationship between interviewer and subject.
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
Burnside’s hitting on a more important piece of the story that everyone else is (understandably) ignoring: That the coverage of Kaberle Sr’s quotes are being badly overhyped.
Has anybody asked him for clarification? Anyone asked Tomas whether he agrees? Any quotes from Burke or Wilson on this? Any context on whether this paper is credible? Anyone even know whether Tomas and his dad are close?
Those all seem like important questions to ask before you splash a “Kaberle open to trade” on your home page.
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Aug 21, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Interestingly when the translation was posted on PPP we had such a discussion and did not present the information as “Kaberle would welcome a trade”. It was more, hey look this is neat Kaberle’s dad gave an interview and said some things, let’s discuss that.
Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 21, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
after all is said and done, my interaction with a Toronto Sun Newspaper will remain as so:
1. Pick up paper
2. turn to the back pages
3. comment that the sunshine girl is a butterface
4. put paper down and continue on with my life
5. Litter box lining
Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9
by Future_considerations on Aug 21, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
6. Burn that mother down! BURN IT I SAY!
by Marc Pilgrim on Aug 21, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I leafed through the Sun today, saw another article by Fuller on Kabs, and his “new” article beside it on Gustavsson, and thought about buying it only to set it on fire and watch it burn
Introducing the all new and improved Me! Now with more Me then before! Get the new Me while supplies last! Quantities are limited!
Offer not guaranteed to contain Me, New Me, or any quantities of Me. Offer limited to Me. No refund of Me will be issued.
I leafed through the Sun today, saw another article by Fuller on Kabs, and his “new” article beside it on Gustavsson, and thought about buying it only to set it on fire and watch it burn
Introducing the all new and improved Me! Now with more Me then before! Get the new Me while supplies last! Quantities are limited!
Offer not guaranteed to contain Me, New Me, or any quantities of Me. Offer limited to Me. No refund of Me will be issued.
But then you’d have the stupidity on your hands, literally, the ink would stick to your fingers and potentially transfer itself into your bloodstream leading to a violent brain aneurysm followed by hemorrhaging then death.
Don't think, it hurts the team!
"Kneel before Todd!!"
Wes Werbowy>Chuck Norris
Thats a good point, i’m glad I didn’t buy it…oh NO! I picked it up! I’m already doomed! Is there no cure?!
Introducing the all new and improved Me! Now with more Me then before! Get the new Me while supplies last! Quantities are limited!
Offer not guaranteed to contain Me, New Me, or any quantities of Me. Offer limited to Me. No refund of Me will be issued.
Ah, a peaceful way to go, i’m alright with that
Introducing the all new and improved Me! Now with more Me then before! Get the new Me while supplies last! Quantities are limited!
Offer not guaranteed to contain Me, New Me, or any quantities of Me. Offer limited to Me. No refund of Me will be issued.
The PPP Health Plan
“If we can’t fix you we’ll puree your ass free of charge!”
Don't think, it hurts the team!
"Kneel before Todd!!"
Wes Werbowy>Chuck Norris
If the sunshine girl is the most redeeming quality of a newspaper
It’s got problems.
Truculence...starting 10/1/09
That's hilarious
If Fuller actually did use google translate, then his quotes would look even more like PPP’s translation.
So Fuller knows that he’s ripped it off, so he has tried to change them to make it seem like he hasn’t copied them directly, although if he truly did use google translate, then he could point to the translations to show that he did them himself
I had a couple more e-mails with Editor James Wallace, which ended very succinctly with this:
Simply because credit belongs to the writer, not the blogger who translated the piece.
I think, in some twisted little world of his, only one individual can earn credit for a piece. In truth, they should be crediting both.
Deal with it.
After watching this go down for two days, I think the whole translation part of it is distracting from the real problem. Here’s how I see the timeline:
- Hokej publishes article
- Member of PPP sees the story (I can’t remember who it was, sorry)
- Blurr’s friend translates the article
- ESPN Insider sees article on PPP, sources PPP
- Toronto Sun sees article on PPP, sources Hokej
- TSN, Sportsnet, etc see article on Toronto Sun, sources Toronto Sun
TSN and Sportsnet see the article on the Sun, publish, and say they saw it on the Sun. ESPN sees the article on PPP, publish, and say they saw it on PPP. The Sun sees the article on PPP, and the best I can guess, decide they don’t want to validate internet-based media, and go around it and pretend they saw the Czech article. The translation is really just the smoking gun that the Sun saw the article on here. No one would find the Czech article first, and then somehow arrive at that nicely-translated article purely by searching.
The plagarism and copyright charges are distracting from the main point, that Fuller lied about his source. It’s not illegal, it’s just really, really scummy, especially when the fix is so simple.
Prefers pugnacity to truculence.
I think this is at the heart of the matter. Fuller stole someone else’s work without crediting the original reporting, full stop. As a print editor, if any of my reporters pulled this shit, that’d be a paddlin (after which I’d probably get fired, but still, worth it).
"To be a Leafs fan is to know your heart will be broken in the end."
–Seamus Heaney Boreshevsky
by Berezin's Spleen on Aug 21, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yahoo! Sports fully credited Pension Plan Puppets
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 21, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
All I can do is shake my head. You know The Toronto Sun is a rag when they have to depend on scantily clad women for page hits.
All of the Sun Corp newspaper relies on that. Controversy, Sex, Sports.
They have to, since in Quebec, they lockouted their employees for over one year in both Montreal and Quebec. (quebec conflict is solved…Montreal one is not. It’s been…over a year for sure)
GUD CONTENT.
Back when I was in Western Canada, I tried reading the Winnipeg Sun, to compare to JDQ.
Same trash, different name. Thanks goodness for the Winnipeg Free Press.
Wow
This stuff is unreal. As someone who has written for a living, albeit not in journalism, it’s shocking. Doing something like this should never even enter anyone’s mind, no matter how close your deadline is.
The Sun’s attitude is ridiculous, too. In my experience, a writer’s boss will generally back them up on many things, but plagiarism is definitely NOT one of those, and we’ve established that translations are original works. And, clearly, since he’s done it again,. they haven’t even told him not to do it anymore, which I would have expected at a minimum.
All that said, they did it. But why on earth wouldn’t the Sun at least give some credit? It’s one freaking line and doesn’t detract from their piece in any way. They are just being douchebags, and for no other reason other than they can. Fuck them. I’d boycott them, except I don’t buy their garbage now as it is.
Blue and White has been alive and well in Ottawa since waaaaay before 1992.
Frankly, doing it once, it can be chalked up to stupidity and laziness.
Twice? That’s some serious stuff. Sleza is a poor finnish student who has put in a lot of time translating for us. For the Sun to benefit from her effort without permission really upsets me.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 21, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions
I agree. http://twitter.com/felixpotvin/status/21758900634
So does sleza http://twitter.com/sleza10/status/21758785958
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Anyone creative enough to create a fake foreign newspaper site complete with made up hot scoop? Translate the story back into english and post it here, and see if the Sun picks it.
The fake site doesn’t even have to work, seeing how the Sun fact checks foreign stories by running through Google Translate
As tempting as that may be, I’m not sure how worthwhile it really is. I’d like to think that we’re a more reliable source of news than newspapers, and printing something fake just to entrap a newspaper writer seems like something that would cause us to lose a lot of credibility.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 21, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
A pyrrhic victory, if you will.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
it is the cleanser
You may be taking Jared a little too seriously
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 21, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I did think about that. PPP would probably be hurt more, if only because they, unlike the Sun, have viewership to lose
by Hansmoleman on Aug 22, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow
who knew that Dave Fuller can translate both Czech and Swedish so well? I wonder how many other languages he can translate? The Toronto Sun is so fortunate to have such a great asset on their staff.
This man ought to work for the United Nations.
by Slava Duris #24 on Aug 21, 2010 5:03 PM EDT reply actions
I hate when people plagerize things from other peoples posts so Dave...
since I know you’re reading this, why don’t you just drop us an email and say “thanks for translating this, can we use the translated quotes?” We would have said “sure”, as long as you gave credit to Rom and now sleza whose work you’ve stolen.
Also
Can’t help but notice all those newspapers say
“BRING ON THE GERMANS” obviously referring to the World Cup tournament.
How did that end up, again?
Please don't act like this comment is important
by Archimedies on Aug 21, 2010 5:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Check page 4-1.
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by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 21, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This transalation
seems more different than the other one. Good catch though.
A Nation of Masochists
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing - Vince Lombardi
It’s also about the scoop on the story. You don’t think Fuller peruses Swedish newspapers do you?
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
of course he doesn’t, he doesn’t have the time, he spends it all perusing this site.
Introducing the all new and improved Me! Now with more Me then before! Get the new Me while supplies last! Quantities are limited!
Offer not guaranteed to contain Me, New Me, or any quantities of Me. Offer limited to Me. No refund of Me will be issued.
Everyone should do this
Step 1: Call Sun Subscriptions
Step 2: Subscribe to the Sun using Dave Fuller’s name
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit!
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 21, 2010 8:35 PM EDT reply actions
New Idea
Next time there is an article to be translated, get whoever is translating it to make obvious mistakes, a few sentences that have been translated completely wrong. Then if uses the wrong translations, we know for sure he is ripping off PPP.
We've had our complaints about the Ottawa Sun this summer, but this...
This is what the word “disgraceful” was created for. Following this over the past few days, I’m amazed there haven’t been any corrections to the original article. How hard is it to credit the source of the translation?
Fuller got caught plagiarizing — plain and simple — and rather than admit guilt, the Sun is falling back on the perception of blogs as a defense.
Just disgraceful.
Silver Seven - The Daniel Alfredsson of Ottawa Senators Blogs
Apropos
I know you’re out there…I can feel you now. I know that you’re afraid. You’re afraid of us, you’re afraid of change…I don’t know the future…I didn’t come here to tell you how this is going to end, I came here to tell you how this is going to begin. Now, I’m going to hang up this phone, and I’m going to show these people what you don’t want them to see. I’m going to show them a world without you.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Aug 22, 2010 12:41 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Disturbing
Dave Fuller and the Sun are way out of line. IMO they are now just messing with PPP for fun. The part that I do not understand is how an editor is willing to pay a writer, who clearly is incapable of generating an original idea. Twice over the course of a week this guy has stepped in to PPP, found an interesting blog and “re- writes” it as his own idea, even claiming a scoop on the kaberle article. Even to say “re-writing” is a stretch since much of the first article was just pasted from PPP. Professional journalistc integrity? Swamp rats more like it.
Welcome
Thanks for joining. Agree 100%
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
If PPP is 'just a blog', surely they won't mind if you use the power of the interwebs?
I notice you haven’t done it yet, so I dropped by to suggest that you use Dave Fuller’s name prominently in your post titles. Perhaps (if SBN allows this) change the titles of previous posts to include his name.
Since it appears that the Sun is unwilling to do anything, putting the guy’s name in your post titles might help attract the google machine. Google indexes heavily on the words in title text, so by using Fuller’s name there, you may at least help spread the word of his unethical antics to anyone who googles his name. Right now none of this is hitting the first two pages of a ‘dave fuller’ google, but with help from title text, you could change that.
by spokeinthebandwagon on Aug 22, 2010 11:44 AM EDT reply actions
I’d write a check to PPP to help pay for them to take out a full page ad in the Toronto Sun advertising Pension Plan Puppets as a great source for Leaf related news.
The day of/after the ad runs, repost the two stories of how they ripped off the translations.
See if a) The Sun is stupid enough to allow us to run the ad
and b) hope that at least a few dozen (hundred?) people call and cancel their subscription due to poor ethics.
The only thing that really matters to these people is money.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 22, 2010 4:01 PM EDT reply actions
LOLZ Steve Simmons
Give the poor man a break. Of course he doesn’t know what constitutes plagiarism—he’s been plagiarizing himself his entire career.
I don't know if someone's already suggested this...
Look up the going hourly rate for translation services and send the Toronto Sun an invoice for the amount of work needed to translate that article.
Looks like the Toronto Sun is taking pot shots from their own blog?
http://torontosunfamily.blogspot.com/2010/08/sun-re-translation.html
They’re taking pot shots at the PPP too, how sad.
That said, we prefer to name and highlight media and blogs that do respect the work of others, not dwell on the ignorance of lesser entities.
‘respect the work of others’
File that under ‘pot calling the kettle’
From now on, I wish to place a moratorium on that Rag that shall not be named.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 23, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining. I think he’s referring to Fuller though.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
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