Toronto Media Weighs In On Credentials Debate
WARNING: This post contains discussion about the sports media landscape in the NHL and Toronto. You've been given a heads up so feel free to skip this post.
Two years ago, a lot of the blogs that comprised the Barilkosphere at the time penned an open letter to Toronto Maple Leafs fans seeking to open their eyes to the excellent writing and analysis available to them away from the media 'superstars' of the MSM. The trigger was yet another lazy 'blame the fans' article, this time penned by Howard Berger, which served as the straw that broke the camel's back. I think that the open letter might have had an impact. When that was posted in October of 2008 this site racked up 17K visits for the month. At the end of this month we'll have racked up our third consecutive month of close to 140K visits. This is really missionary work that we are doing. Since that October, I haven't read Howard's writing other than when a commenter here or a friend suggests that there might be something of interest (Editor's Note: ie when he writes something exceptionally offensive to Leafs fans) which is what prompted this post. MapleStirUp mentioned on Twitter that Berger has name dropped the site so I checked it out.
Apparently, Howard takes sanitized questions from his readers every once in a while and Randy from Lethbridge (definitely not one of you guys) asked about the recent debate about blogs and media credentials, a topic that MF37 covered excellently:
"Hi Howard… always enjoy your work. There’s recently been a debate, on-line, that hockey bloggers deserve the same privileges as newspaper, radio and television reporters. Do you believe that reputable blogging websites should be accredited by NHL teams and their writers provided space in the press box? And, what do you think about the recent proliferation of independent hockey sites?"
After the jump is his answer and my reply.
I apologize in advance for the big block of text that you are going to read but far be it for me, a lowly pleb without a journalism background, to add paragraph breaks into a professional's writing:
My immediate response to your question, Randy, is the more the merrier. Hockey is an all-encompassing matter to untold thousands of people and I object to nothing that helps advance the popularity and relevance of the game. But, the issue you raise is a bit more complicated. First of all, I can tell you – without equivocation – that Canadian-based NHL teams, and many in the prime American markets, already have limited space in their press areas. As such, there has to be, minimally, a criterion which defines the nature of a website petitioning for access. Otherwise, all you’d have to do is submit a piece, on-line, and call up a team saying you deserve to be in the press box. That won’t fly. Others will argue the need for a distinction — as in all business pursuits — between hobbyists and paid professionals. Let’s face it: before the Internet, no person beyond those employed in media circles had a public voice, or the facility to transmit news and opinion. Many more people have a voice today, simply because they can. There is no restriction to starting a website other than one’s desire and wherewithal to do so. Qualifications that lead to the common hiring process are unnecessary. I have a very strong interest, for example, in the U.S. space program; it’s been a passion of mine since the days of the Apollo moon-walks 40 years ago. I’ve read practically every book related to the subject and – were I so inclined – could probably start a website with commentary and information that might be of interest to others. Of course, that wouldn’t give me the right to go down to Cape Canaveral and ask to be part of a space shuttle mission; or even plausible license to request a press credential for the next launch. Moreover, I believe websites that vehemently lobby for media privileges are diminishing their own product. I periodically sites related to the Maple Leafs, such as Pension Plan Puppets, Maple Leafs Hotstove and TMLFans.ca. There’s an enormous community of Leaf supporters that frequent these web-pages, and a mostly enjoyable coterie of bloggers. I’ve got more respect for Maple Leafs Hotstove because its writers have the integrity to submit articles under their actual names. But, no blogging site, in my opinion, should be granted media privileges unless it chooses to play by the same rules as the so-called "mainstream" element. Professional reporters are governed by libel laws; by standards of language use, performance and accountability. I got in trouble a few years ago for saying something on the air about Sean Avery that I shouldn’t have, and I was appropriately sanctioned. That’s what happens to known public figures when they violate the laws of media and/or society. Such standards are non-existent among many independent websites, whose administrators insist [for obvious reasons] to hide behind pseudonyms. You may not agree with my opinions, but you know who I am [by name], the legitimate, recognized media outlet I work for, where you can find my articles, and how you can get a hold of me, as my e-mail address accompanies each column. You may argue why I submit my FAN-590 blogs to the HockeyBuzz website, given that its proprietor is famous for anonymity. The answer is simple: Though you may not like "Eklund’s" rumors, or approve of his shtick, he neither judges nor takes gratuitous pot-shots at anyone from beneath his veil. Nor does he use disgusting language. By comparison, much of the Internet is a sewer. Even a burgeoning site such as Maple Leafs Hotstove will never be taken seriously until it moderates the rampant vulgarity in its chat forum — obscene language that demeans and devalues the honest work of its bloggers. That applies to the others, as well. No individual or sports media outlet in a press box anywhere in North America would be allowed to transmit such profanity; nor should it be. So, in answer to part of your question, Randy, I welcome any and all hockey voices in the blog universe; their own opinions, and opinions of me that are stated within appropriate boundaries. The only scourge in this racket is indifference. As mentioned above, however, lots of work must be done by independent websites to conform with mandatory laws of media and society before they should expect common privileges.
Whew! If you made it through all of those red herrings, misconceptions, and outright misrepresentations (Editor's Note: Don't forget the hypocrisy) then here is the reply I submitted which I trust will be moderated since I conformed to the mandatory laws of society...mostly.
Howard - First off, thanks for reading. Feel free to sign up for an account and comment. Elliotte Friedman has one and James Mirtle is a regular commenter.
As for the debate about credentials, it is not about allowing any Tom, Dick, or Harry with a blogspot address into the press box. The debate is whether there is a place for writers outside of the usual group of writers. Furthermore, every blogger interested in press credentials understands that there would be a vetting process. It would not be a free-for-all as you seem to suggest and no one 'expects' that they be given access.
The debate kicked up because of the Rangers' desire to control access to their team while on the road. They want to shut out bloggers that have been vetted by the home team. Some teams in weaker markets are courting their most dedicated and influential bloggers precisely because their press boxes are not packed to the rafters. In Toronto, where there is an abundance of media, whether they do anything useful with their access or not, the room would be cramped with any additions. Maybe they could use some of the seats that go empty.
I find it funny that the media is so obsessed with bloggers using their real names. If I used a name like David Danforth you'd think that you knew my name and suddenly I'd have more integrity? As it stands, you know everything that I write because I've used the same handle for four years now. If knowing my real name is a big hangup you could always e-mail me since I conduct all of my correspondence with it. However, blogging is a hobby and I do have a real job so until the day, that will likely never come, that blogging pays the bills my byline will read PPP. Oh, and my e-mail address is just as easily found. Anyone, whether the Toronto Sun's editor or a reader, can find it and contact me or my partner Chemmy.
The libel laws is a pretty fresh angle since, last I checked, bloggers are actually still governed by the law. I WISH I operated in a nebulous world where I could do whatever I wanted but sadly, that is not the case. Our accountability is different than yours of course. We're beholden to our readers and the blogging community as well as SBNation under whose umbrella we run the site.
Your association with him is a nice bit of 'integrity' by the way. I guess if we used our real names AND fed people bullshit it would be alright as long as we didn't say mean things about others. (Editor's Note: Oh yeah, Eklund plagiarizes as well) Good to know.
Since you read the site I bet you know a bit about how journalists in this city apply their 'professional standards' as Dave Fuller stole a story from our site. His editor promptly held him accountable by...doing nothing. It's far from an isolated instance in the realm of MSM-blog relations so excuse me and other bloggers for not heaping praise on those standards.
I agree that much of the internet is a sewer. For example, there is a website that sells 'season tickets' at $20 a pop to feed people false rumours. It features baseless speculation that sadly is taken as reality by a deluded set of fans. You might know it by it's full name: HockeyBuzz.
As for the issue of language in the comments of Maple Leafs Hot Stove or any other site, I wonder if you hold newspapers such as the Globe and Mail or a television station like TSN responsible for their comment sections. The language might not be as salty but a lot of the ideas are even more offensive. I would guess those comments don't devalue the work of contributors to either of those media groups because it would be in staying with the double standard that media members apply to blogs. We try to moderate them to a certain extent but at the end of the day, the comment section on the blogs is much like a sports bar. The way people comment is the same way that society today speaks.
Your comparison of the language that we use in our writing and that is used by papers like The Star or the G&M doesn't hold water. The reason they don't use the same language is because they are network television to our HBO and not just in the fact that there is a growing group of fans that prefer our greater depth. Furthermore, there's no need to hold on to an all-encompassing puritan standard of language on the internet because readers are able to decide what they want to read since they are adults.
Hope that helps dispel some of the misconceptions that you hold. And for anyone else reading this exchange I hope it helps to spur some discussion.
Cheers,
PPP
(not my real name!)
I wonder what Berger's readers will say since I assume that the overlap, at this time, is pretty thin but it should be interesting.
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Contradict Much?
I love how Berger who has a huge crush on Eklund stated Eklund has never taken any shots at anyone, I believe Eklund plenty of times has stated to his fans on twitter that he thinks some people are stupid because they dislike him, kind of like @damospin at times, and also not sure how many of you were up draft night but Eklund definitly acts mature, that arguement between him and Jay Onrait definitly showed that side of him, where he took shots at the MSM which had Darren Dreger and Bob Mckenzie both put Eklund in his place…what a joke
Don’t forget that Eklund intentionally keeps his identity a secret including blacking himself out of photos and claiming to have dated Cameron Diaz.
Anyone who wants to know our names is welcome to email us. My email address available at the bottom of the page is my first initial and last name at gmail, and no one on facebook has my last name except me, it’s not hard to figure out who I am.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Yea, if you spend more than 5 minutes on this site it’s pretty easy for figure out both your names, and like PPP said, even if you did use a “real” name, how would anyone know that is your actual name?
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
If you spend less than five minutes on this site and email me with the link on any page I’d be happy to discuss who I am with anyone who manages to mash “Send” in gmail.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
That’s a tall order.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Id just prefer to not spend the 2 seconds to scroll down and keep the fourth wall in place. I’m also going to keep on assuming you do indeed actually look like a giant cartoon tiger.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
i’m gonna keep on assuming that PPP looks like spaceman spiff
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 30, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Welcome
Thanks for joining. Glad to see you come in off of Twitter.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Well done Mr. Danforth, I mean PPP
You may argue why I submit my FAN-590 blogs to the HockeyBuzz website, given that its proprietor is famous for anonymity. The answer is simple:Though you may not like “Eklund’s” rumors, or approve of his shtick, he neither judges nor takes gratuitous pot-shots at anyone from beneath his veilI make money off an article I’ve already written and been paid for, dollar dollar bills ya’ll.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 9:52 AM EDT reply actions
Exactly.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Oh how I wish you were more clever
I’ve got more respect for Maple Leafs Hotstove because its writers have the integrity to submit articles under their actual names.
You may argue why I submit my FAN-590 blogs to the HockeyBuzz website, given that its proprietor is famous for anonymity. The answer is simple: Though you may not like “Eklund’s” rumors, or approve of his shtick, he neither judges nor takes gratuitous pot-shots at anyone from beneath his veil.
Oh PPP, if that’s even your real name, why are you reading the most astute Howard Berger (real name) so literally? Can’t you see that he’s being cryptic and actually taking a jab at his pseudo partner “Eklund” here? Because he uses the moniker “Eklund” in reference to one Dwayne Klessel, Berger is saying that he really doesn’t give “Eklund” respect; even if he uses his best Sunday School language.
You toot your own literacy horn with enough frequency that I thought you’d be clever enough to read between Berger’s lines. Oh what a fool I was for expecting more from you besides a potty mouth.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
by SkinnyFish on Aug 30, 2010 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
1. Rec’d
2. It might be time for us to all change our usernames to hysterical fake names. Karina could become Ivanna Tinkle, mf37 would be reborn as Seymour Butts, etc.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I call I. C. Weiner
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
I’m debating between “Baron Sausage von Dongknocker” and “Hugh Jass”.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Hugh Jass.
In Lou We Trust: Continuing a saga no one really cares about
If the quality of my posts begin to get better, it's because i'm doing steroids.
by Kevin Sellathamby on Aug 30, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I.P Freeley
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Oliver Closehoff.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
MilF69
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
WINNAR!!!!
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Somebody’s been on cougarlife recently
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 30, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I might just go to David Danforth full-time. Then I’d have instant integrity.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
my last name REALLY IS FromLondon
that makes me more credible than the lot of you!
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
lies.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
No, it’s true!
It’s just that his first name isn’t really Jared.
Also, in my culture, we tend to use single-name identifiers, sort of like Brazilian soccer players. 1967ers is an odd name in English, but it sounds better in the native language.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 30, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Please change my username to Ivanna Tinkle ASAP.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Also
Let’s face it: before the Internet, no person beyond those employed in media circles had a public voice, or the facility to transmit news and opinion.
Really Howard, what media outlet did Rosa Parks and M.L.K work for again? What about W.E.B Dubois?
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 10:05 AM EDT reply actions
Yeah
That’s a great point.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
alright alright, let’s not get glenn beck-crazy here.
its blogging credentials for away team dressing rooms, not some parallel to civil rights.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 30, 2010 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It just shows how poorly thought out that argument was.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
by PPP on Sep 1, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m going down to city hall and changing my name to Sir Wesley Tinklebottom Mantooth.
The Maple Leafs- making me certifiably insane since 1985.
by torleafsfan29 on Aug 31, 2010 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions
At the heart of the matter,
Howard Berger has a pretty good point in regard to playing by the same rules as MSM if bloggers desire the same access as MSM.
As far as the comments are concerned … I’m more in line with PPP’s take on that … sports bar is a very good analogy. The comments section is primarily made up of the fans’ voices, not the writers’, and as such should in no way take away from the work done by the writers. If one doesn’t like the comments, they certainly do not have to read them. One of the key aspects of the blogs which has led to their popularity is not just the content … but the willingness to allow fans to engage, have a voice, and form a community. Why doesn’t that happen on G&M or other sites? Moderation. CBC is the only one where anything close to a community is formed within the comments … reason being, they do not moderate to nearly the extent the other MSM sites do.
Back to the original point though … it’s hard to expect to be invited to ‘join the club’ (e.g. be granted equal access) when that club has established rules of governance and those doing the inviting are under the impression that those asking for the invite are not of the mind to follow those rules. To that extent, Howard makes a very good, and absolutely valid, point.
I’m quite glad that Howard wrote what he did … despite a few of the holes in his argument that were aptly pointed out in PPP’s response, he is onto something here. And, his base point is certainly one worth thinking about.
If anything, it is refreshing to read a take from a MSMer that approaches this debate is a far more positive manner than many others have.
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
The only place with more homophobic and insane racist commentary than newspaper website comments is Xbox Live. The MSM has no place to stand up and tells us our comments are vulgar.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Uh huh, anything that crosses the line is shot down fairly quickly on both this website and other SBN Blogs I’m a member of and visited.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
So we allow swearing? Boo-hoo. It’s the lingua franca of the sports world.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I was going to troll the comments on news pieces on the Sun, the Star, etc. and make that point obvious.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I believe one of the guidelines is to avoid excessive cussing, I put cuss in my signature instead of Fuck for cuss sakes.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s a good idea because signatures follow you around so while “FUCK DETROIT!!!” is good on St. Louis Game Time or Second City Hockey it doesn’t fly over at Winging It In Motown
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Plus, there is a time and a place for cussing, not as an ignorant coda to every comment I make.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Bingo
Like it says, if you pick your spot it’s more effective.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
That’s the funniest part, swearing is not all the prevalent here, and anyone who does so excessively is informed of the deal quickly.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
horsecock
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
by Chemmy on Aug 30, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Some are above the law.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Judge Dredd swears a lot. He just uses futuristic swears words that 21st century man is unfamiliar with. He cares not for this debate on vulgarity.
©1979-2010 article1 All rights reserved. Terms and conditions available on request. May be freely reproduced by anyone except those answering to the description 'Thieving Mittenstringer'.
by article1 on Aug 30, 2010 7:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
True.
But within the context of the argument (which is about hockey sites – MSM v Blogs), within that sphere the perspective is valid. I get what he is saying … even if I don’t agree it is something that should be considered an issue.
And, I have a feeling Howard Berger isn’t spending much time on XBox Live. Just call it a hunch.
Although I have to admit – I would have thought he’d say the same about the HB comments … which I would guess by his response, he doesn’t actually read.
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
My point is that if you read the comments on a Toronto Sun news article you’ll feel genuinely and truly sorry that as a society we’ve let it come to this.
Sometimes I say “fuck” in the comments for a laugh.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
To be fair, if you read the editorials in the Toronto Sun, you’ll feel the same way.
If I'm losing an argument, I ask myself "What would a real journalist do?"
Then I cower behind: "You still don't get it. Deal with it." Thanks, James Wallace.
by Bower Power on Aug 30, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
That’s the other thing that bothered me. His article was basically a complain about blogs with apologies for HB because, and it goes unwritten of course, he profits from the site.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
For proof, just go back a few months to the Brendan Burke stories on PD that had to have the comments section closed down because it turned into a defacto Klan Rally. And yes, I equate the PD comments section with those of newspapers and the like.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
A good point.
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
What is PD
Every site I went to was 80-90% supportive of the Burke family, and Brendan and all he stood for. I was happily surprised (I expected more homophobic idiots)
Puck Daddy. It wasn’t a pretty sight.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
The more popular a site is the more likely it is to be over run by the lowest common denominator trying to be part of it as well. Theres something to be said for elitism.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Yeah, part of me wants to see PPP blow up (it deserves a wider audience) but part of me thinks it wouldn’t be nearly as good.
Yay elitism!
by The '67 Sound on Aug 30, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Fast-forward five years…….nothing but 1967 articles and blaming fans….
“PPP you’ve changed man” or “It was better before it signed with a major label”
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
“I was a fan of PPP when they were still Indie man!”
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
literally, I was….
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
was there PPP before SBnation?
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, PPP and Chemmy had their own individual blogs.
I followed PPP’s.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
ah, cool
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
me and Karina are the only really cool ones cause we’ve been fans the longest
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
HIGH FIVE!
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
i can just imagine a PPP blog with Jared and Karina as the only commentors…. yet still hitting the 500 comment mark with ease haha
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
i think i had maybe one or two comments before he switched over to SBN, and even then it took me a month or two to dip into the waters
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
must have been pretty quiet around here
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
You have no idea.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
me too
but I was blocked by my work back then
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Just keep wading through the archives. It’s all there.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.
/goes to look up first post on PPP
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
heh, first comment is someone having an issue with the blog name. too funny
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
how adorable is it that one of PPP’s first comentors was his daddy/?
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
My blog came waaaaaaaaaaaaaay after PPP’s. The DTFC was pretty small when Julian asked me to come on board so I ditched it like a hot rock.
http://darcytucker.blogspot.com
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I could only remember it had something to do with Darcy Tucker and didn’t have much content before this place was created.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
the jason blake gif is the catalyst of awesome
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
“Hey everybody, an old man is talking!”
/knows you’re neither a man nor old
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 30, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I both look forward with eager anticipation and horrible dread to the day the Leafs may the playoffs with the possibility of winning more than one round.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d say Youtube comments are pretty up there as well.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Aug 30, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
i cant think of any comment section on any site sports/news related that isnt completley fowl
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I think a lot of birds are offended by your derogatory use of that descriptor.
by CanadianMaple09 on Aug 30, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
My apologies to the Bird community ;)
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Their response: “Squak squak chirp squak cock-a-doodle-doo!”
by CanadianMaple09 on Aug 30, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
i take it they didnt accept my apology….
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know. The underlying tone is definitely condescending.
As for following the rules of the MSM, that’s the whole reason that the blogosphere exists. When blogs are nothing more than a reflection of the MSM they are not nearly as interesting. The best posts you guys write are the in-depths interviews by far because you’re asking questions that may not necessarily be ground-breaking (I know how hard that is to do) but they are ones we usually haven’t received answers to from the Leafs.
And jokes on Howard, we do our thing and MLSE still reached out to us therefore we have no incentive to stop making fun of his clothes or laughing when Ron Wilson smokes him.
And the comment section on the G&M might be moderated for content but it is certainly not moderated for offensive remarks. Some of that stuff makes you wonder where those people live.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I didn't find the tone condescending at all ...
… except for the comments part. But, coming from the guy who wrote the Loserville series, I can take that part with a grain of salt.
As far as his points on libel, accountability, all that … I think it’s fair and reasonable. And like I said, nice to see this sort of approach … a guy willing to have the discussion and explore a few of those avenues … as opposed to, say, the approach used by Cox et al the past couple weeks.
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
My using a pseudonym here doesn’t excuse me from libel laws, and since we get paid by SBNation they know our details to identify us should they receive a subpoena.
Point not well made.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
If Berger had said “having a Blogspot/Wordpress blog with five followers shouldn’t get you a press pass” I think everyone would agree.
I don’t personally WANT a press pass because I don’t think it’s worth the hassle (I’m a fan and just want to talk hockey) but plenty of my colleagues here at SBNation do excellent reporting work as do you guys over at MLHS from what I’ve seen.
Not all blogs are the same thing.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
We’re one of the largest team specific hockey blogs on the internet and we have one of the best communities. Advertisers love that people hang out here all day rather than just driving by to read something and closing the page.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
who knew
attracting Jared to your website could be profitable.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
my milkshake brings all the bloggers to the yard
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree that it’s nice that he tried to address it rather than doing what Simmons and Cox did.
Libel applies to everyone and we can actually get fired from this blog.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
It's different for everyone
PPP, Chemmy – In your case, Berger is unaware that you are paid by SBN … why would he have any idea how things are set up with them? Most bloggers are not paid a dime for anything they do.
See, my perspective on this is a bit different than yours as we don’t get paid at MLHS … in that sense his point about libel and accountability actually means a bit more … and is a key reason why we use our names … that isn’t something that played out that way accidentally … it’s on purpose, and for those reasons.
Like I said, different perspectives due to different setups, different modes of operation. I appreciate yours.
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
In your case, Berger is unaware that you are paid by SBN … why would he have any idea how things are set up with them?
Sort of interesting that Berger rails on about libel and accountability while not doing basic fact checking on people he calls out for those things, isn’t it?
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
But not surprising right?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
in that sense his point about libel and accountability actually means a bit more
Why? What standards of libel and accountability are you subject to that we are not?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
No. Didn't mean it that way.
Rather, just trying to explain where my own POV comes from.
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Wasn’t a general statement – just a personal one. That part of Berger’s commentary stands out to me.
Largely because I am an unpaid, could use a pseudonym, IP anonymizer, the whole bit … and in the process be one of those who paints the blogosphere with a certain brush and face minimal recourse for it. Hell I’m not even looking for a career in this, you know? It would be easy.
Berger is hinting at exactly that stereotype … you know, momma’s basement … which is why I say that yeah, I do take something like the accountability issue to heart with the use of real names. Last thing I’m interested in is being painted with that same brush.
But, you’re right, I could have worded that better in the first place. Cheers.
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Hell I’m not even looking for a career in this, you know?
This is why 90% of us use pseudonyms. A lot of employers google names and mine is very distinct. I’m not worried about curious parties finding out who I am, I just don’t want this to dominate google searches for me should a prospective non sports writing employer do so.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Bingo.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I suppose.
If an employers asks me about it, I don’t hide it. I just tell them yeah, it’s a hobby. Today my boss just told me how much her husband likes the site. Cool. Just hope they aren’t checking the timestamps on the articles too closely … :P
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly.
Plus pseudonyms are more fun.
by The '67 Sound on Aug 30, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t find the tone condescending at all …
It’s a lecture on the “work [that] must be done by independent websites to conform with mandatory laws of media and society before they should expect common privileges.”
That is condescending as all hell.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
No, it isn't.
It’s a fair and valid point.
My take is, simply: What gives us the right to expect to be treated any differently?
(Not trying to engage in any sort of a war of words with that … I just happen to think it’s a fair question we don’t ask ourselves often enough.)
"One day, we'll be perfect." - The Tao of Stieb
by GarrettBauman on Aug 30, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I think it comes off as condescending to a blogger like PPP – who works double time to NOT put out the senseless drivel that makes up a majority of the internet.
BS
by MapleLeafMole on Aug 30, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
But that’s the point, most bloggers don’t feel that way. He’s ascribing those desires so that he can ‘educate’ us about how the big, mean real world works.
I guess it’s like Damien. I factor in my past experience with Berger when evaluating the tone of what he writes.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
To be honest
I didn’t find it particularly condescending. He wrote it attempting to explain his point.
I use to spend time on G&M website. Comments seem to only get moderated, if reported as offensive.
BS
by MapleLeafMole on Aug 30, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
why do you think the Barilkosphere was born
It wasn’t because Leaf fans rose up, en masse, and said “hey i’m looking to spend hours of unpaid work per week redoing the exact same stuff i’m getting from newspapers, TV and sports radio because it’s so damn satisfying”
No, it was because there was a demand for something that wasn’t being supplied anywhere else. The market filled the void.
Years ago, I knew I didn’t give a cuss about canned comment from athletes in the dressing rooms, but i read the game recap story in the Star everyday because i was hoping to be surprised by something news. I rarely was.
This Berger article reads to me like a guy who’s thinking “things used to be better, and i want it to back to that.”
But here’s the thing, Howard — things didn’t used to be better.
You can be antagonistic and fearful or you can change your shtick. Your choice.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
at least change your sweater….
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Even more!
I have a very strong interest, for example, in the U.S. space program; it’s been a passion of mine since the days of the Apollo moon-walks 40 years ago. I’ve read practically every book related to the subject and – were I so inclined – could probably start a website with commentary and information that might be of interest to others. Of course, that wouldn’t give me the right to go down to Cape Canaveral and ask to be part of a space shuttle mission; or even plausible license to request a press credential for the next launch.
I’m fairly certain if you had a website devoted to NASA with a large community and asked for access to a launch they’d let you, NASA isn’t exactly drowning in publicity right now. Their last newsworthy event was that crazy lady who wore a diaper and drove cross country to kill her former lover.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 10:08 AM EDT reply actions
I’m not sure if Berger is insane and thinks that interviewing guys who play games for a living is the same as fumbling around with people about to risk their lives to advance society or if this is a sad indictment of our times that we hold athletes on the same level as astronauts.
You know who gets to be an astronaut? Fighter pilots with science doctorates. You know who gets to be a fighter pilot? Guys who have physical abilities on par with pro athletes.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
if NASA wants to get people interested/excited about space travel, then they should funnel them over to neil degrasse tyson. he is awesome.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 31, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s a terrible analogy. Saying that having a space blog wouldn’t get you a job with the space program is like saying having a hockey blog would get you a spot on the 4th line; not getting a spot in the press box. Berger has no command over the English language.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
His arguments are, predictably, terribly put together. Then again, this is the guy that makes his living off of blaming the fans for the Leafs’ failures.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I don’t know about you, but I always blame Berger when there’s a failure at NASA.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
in that section
of the two scenarios he offers, the first one is completely ridiculous…
Does anyone who runs a Leafs website expect to get a job working for the Leafs? On the ice? Behind the bench? Or even in the front office? No! So what the hell is the point of that analogy?
Some would argue they do a better job of COVERING the team, but to equate knowledge of a subject as an outsider to be some sort of RIGHT to get sent into a space shuttle is intellectually dishonest and i hope he knows it.
And as for his second point, whether NASA would give him a press pass? You know what, actually, I think they might! If you’ve demonstrated that you’re a source of space news with a large dedicated readership, I wouldn’t be surprised at all that they would. They’re eager to justify their existence right now.
So to recap, the answer to the two rhetorical questions Berger placed expecting resounding NO’s are 1) besides the point and 2) yes.
Great stuff.
In conclusion, 1967.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Ha ha, agree, that was my point, they probably would give him credentials.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s the duty of every Leaf fan to do their utmost to ensure Howard Berger has his life-long dream come true and gets transferred to the States to cover NASA full-time.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Well, The Next Shuttle Launch is Nov 1, also that day Astronaut JR. Reilly will be available for a Q&A as well as lunch, there is a small cost of tickets, let’s make this happen.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
What I want to see
is PPP get a press pass to cover that NASA launch.
Just to rub it in Berger’s bad-analogy-making face.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 30, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
if there are any montrealer astronauts on the crew that can be heckled, this needs to happen.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 31, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Howard Berger...
though for different reasons. The only legitimate point Berger made was that he’s a paid reporter with a boss who has to adhere to certain standards of behaviour or potentially face severe sanctions (e.g. getting fired). To a team, that’s something of a guarantee that the person they admit will behave in a proper manner (think Dr. Yueh’s mark of Imperial conditioning…and I use him as an example because there is occasionally a bad apple). There is nothing PPP could lose that would be equivalent to that. That being said, a blogger like Wyshinski could lose something equivalent since he is paid (even if his writing doesn’t merit it). But as far as I know, most serious sports bloggers are hobbyists and don’t make much. So Berger does have something of a point there.
On the more general point, I believe a team should be able to control their access to any form of media competely. If a team doesn’t want any of their players talking to the media (bloggers, journalists, reporters etc.), then they should have the right to ban all media access. Access to players is a privilege. I find it amusing that Berger seemingly applies that attitude towards bloggers, but not to journalists like himself.
Access to players is a privilege. I find it amusing that Berger seemingly applies that attitude towards bloggers, but not to journalists like himself.
Agree completely.
Obviously the standards of accountability are different but the law still applies and we’ve seen what kind of coverage the MSM’s access has gotten us…
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
The only legitimate point Berger made was that he’s a paid reporter with a boss who has to adhere to certain standards of behaviour or potentially face severe sanctions (e.g. getting fired).
Plenty of us are paid bloggers with a boss who have to adhere to certain standards or face getting fired.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
I mentioned Wysh as an exception. And when I’m talking about paid Chemmy, I mean actually paid (e.g. 60k + a year), not making peanuts from ad revenues.
Peanuts?
We could buy cashews with our scrilla.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Not a knock on Wyshynski but I’d be surprised if he was making 60K writing a hockey blog.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
mmm…well I’m Canadian, from a mid-sized town near Toronto. I don’t know what the adjustment for cost of living would be, but cost of living here in Canada is higher than in the States. I wouldn’t be surprised if Wysh makes about that much when factoring in the CoL difference for wherever he lives.
Wysh lives in DC, it’s not cheaper than Canada.
Join me on the Hockey Blog Adventure! (or Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Aug 30, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
He better hope he’s making 60k because that’s about how much you need to make to afford to live in DC.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
Oh I Dunno
I saw some pretty laid back people living on the streets in DC. They probably didn’t have much more than a nickel to their name, but hey… they were alive… and living in DC… I won’t comment on how well they were doing though.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
mf37 said essentially this in a guest post, and you’re both right. Sports teams are private entities — they do not owe the public anything at all and are completely within their rights to cut off access to ANYONE, mainstream media or blog or whatever.
Frankly, since i don’t care much about canned “110%” answers in dressing rooms i have no desire to see bloggers spend time in press boxes. To me, this issue is not about how teams treat bloggers. It’s about how journalists treat bloggers.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
Great point.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
That being said, a blogger like Wyshynski could lose something equivalent since he is paid (even if his writing doesn’t merit it)
I think Wysh does a fine job covering the entire spectrum of hockey news. Considering he’s been watered down & reigned-in by his Yahoo overlords and has to appeal to the broadest possible base, his work is exceptional. How witty can you expect someone to be 5 times a day when their reporting covers everything from UHL youtube highlights to all-you-can-drink arena promotions?
If that blog still had the tone/community it had 2 years ago, you probably wouldn’t be so dismissive towards Wysh and the job he does.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 31, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Everybody be cool
My name is Rees Harriosn.

I now have a licence to judge and take gratiutous pot shots.
by general borschevsky on Aug 30, 2010 10:22 AM EDT reply actions
You weren’t wearing a hat the last time I saw you. I don’t think that’s you in the picture because I would have remembered a hat.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
Yea, and that guy looks a lot like my friend and his name isn’t Rees Harriosn. Is that even your real name, are you sure it isn’t Harrison, did you spell your own name wrong?
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Harriosn
It’s pronounced harry’oh’shyn.
And no it’s not my real name. But that handsome devil in the photo is me. Sorry if I’ve destroyed any illusions.
I know many of you imagined I looked this guy:
by general borschevsky on Aug 30, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
howd you get my picture?!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Aug 30, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
New Rule (cue Bill Maher Music)
If you work for an anonymous guy making money off of false rumours and you get a financial benefit from those shenanigans you can’t pen a post condemning blogs for writing under pseudonyms.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
get over it
Negative. I am a meat popsicle.
by birky on Aug 30, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
hehehe yes!
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
You better believe that got a rec’n
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
And green.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You just don’t understand. That’s not how hypocrisy and being on the take work in journalism.
If I'm losing an argument, I ask myself "What would a real journalist do?"
Then I cower behind: "You still don't get it. Deal with it." Thanks, James Wallace.
by Bower Power on Aug 30, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Professional reporters are governed by libel laws; by standards of language use, performance and accountability.
i think there are couple of “professional reporter” whou should be informed about this law…
besides, little profanity has never hurt anyone… and athletes swear on tv too
Мы в любовь играли,
И как кровь из вены капает слеза.
Remember kids it's down the road not across the street
Hmmm also
Professional reporters are governed by libel laws; by standards of language use, performance and accountability.
EVERYONE is governed by libel laws – hence it being a law. Standards of language use are pretty low in the MSM as far as I can tell. Performance and accountability is a bit of a loose set of controls as far as I can see. They don’t seem to be held accountable for their poor performances… EVER.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Berger photoshop request
Somebody needs to photoshop this movie poster so it’s about bloggers and libel.

Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
Something somewhere went terribly wrong…
by CanadianMaple09 on Aug 30, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
in a world, where bloggers run free….
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It was a poster of Steve Segal’s Above the Law….
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
I got to the part where Berger compares press credentialing with astronaut training and promptly choked on my cereal.
For the sake of my own well being, I’m not going to read anymore.
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Aug 30, 2010 10:46 AM EDT reply actions
What is the press box?
Not in the literal sense but what is the purpose of the press box as far as the abstract in this argument. Are we arguing for literal access to a room where a bunch of out of shape journalist majors spend a large portion of their time or just respect as legitimate news sources. It seems most people currently allowed in the club work for major news sources who get loaned a spot and they sit there by default or are people who have already carved a name out for themselves. You would have to figure out why Average Daily Newspaper is worth a spot and PPP isn’t. Is it because of viewership, name recognition (which is an untouched but legitimate reason), or legitimacy as a actual news source.
To me the subject is currently being argued “why does joey joe joe shabado JR get a spot in the press box, that guy sucks” and instead should be “why does Average Daily Newspaper get the press box spot when they barely care about the team.”
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Why did Jeff Finger and Garnet Exelby get so much time in the press box last year? They aren’t journalists or even bloggers for Christ’s sake!
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
by SkinnyFish on Aug 30, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is it just me, or does
‘Finger in the press box’
sound kinda dirty.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 30, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Or to be more to the point
At what point does everything cross the virtual line where more people go here to get their Leafs info than to the traditional press.
If 150,000 people are coming here monthly, that’s still pretty far below the regular readership of the Sun, Star, or G&M in a given month… although not all of their readers bother to look up how the Leafs are doing. When is this an even playing field?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Does it matter?
Seriously. If I were a team, who cares where people go? Bloggers are dedicated to my team. They’ll go wherever they need to go to get the information. I could distribute it anywhere, even to some random kid who sells it for a fee, and bloggers would go there to get it because that’s their whole shtick. So if the current system works for the team and will continue to work for the team, what incentive would they have to change it?
It matters to some extent
if I’m looking to spin my product to the most people, would it not make sense to grant access to the sources that are reaching the most people?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think the current status quo
continues forever. Eventually the MSM will be an anachronism and internet media will displace the worst of it. The line is blurring pretty heavily already. Fewer and fewer people buy newspapers, and most of the major media sources are moving away from print and trying to control television, internet, etc.
There’s a reason TSN and Sportsnet pour so much energy into their websites. Media conglomerates like to control things as much as they can from a spin perspective, although sports are less important to the cause, they’re still relevant to the dialogue with the public.
CTV Globe Media (BGM) (Just as an example) owns the Globe and Mail, CTV News, TSN, CHUM radio network, and the Toronto Star. We’re dealing with very large corporations that operate under a huge catch all umbrella… losing reader/viewership from one part of the group to another doesn’t really bother them.. it’s when things bleed off to sites they have no control over that they worry.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Not in the case of bloggers...
because bloggers are just that…bloggers. They report on the team out of interest, and that interest damns them because the team knows they’ll always be there and will always go to where the information is. Thus the team doesn’t need to engage them directly and can give the information to TSN or whoever, knowing that the bloggers will go there to get it and then distribute it to their community.
Since allowing bloggers would be a change from the status quo and likely incur costs, while providing no real benefit since bloggers will seek out the information anyway. So why bother?
To put it another way:
The Maple Leafs are the hot girl (or guy) and the bloggers are the nerdy guys (or girls) falling all over themselves to cater to her (or him). Because that chick (or dude) from Montreal is so ugly, the hot girl (or guy) never has to worry about losing those needy nerds and can continue to make no effort to treat them right. The nerdy guys (or girls) will continue to behave as they have because they’re so smitten with the girl (or guy).
Blogging
is just a format of presentation… it’s easy to get “published” online but the source site is likely a bit different from place to place.
There is no cost to the team in changing the status quo, aside from possibly lost ad revenue. I don’t think this change is happening anytime soon.
I think it will be a long time (i.e. forever) before a place like SBNation can match the advertising funding available to the likes of CTV-Globe media.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
You're assuming
the nerdy guy is poor in perpetuity. That’s not a safe assumption.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Well…when PPP becomes the Pension Plan Panthers and Leafs fans start converting en masse because the Leafs don’t allow access to bloggers, let me know. =)
It’s made with bits of real panther, so you know it’s good.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 31, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
What an odd analogy. The thing is though is that there ARE bloggers out there who act much more like journalists as opposed to bloggers. The guys from the Flyers SBN site were invited by the team to sit in the press section for the SCF, they realize that blogs reach a different market than the MSM and they want to give that market more information so that their relationship with the team increases. On a personal note since joining PPP I have become a more passionate Leaf fan. I had never bought my own jersey until recently, never subscribed to LeafsTV. You can bet were it not for PPP I wouldn’t have heard of the rookie tournament, let alone bought tickets for it. I bet I’m not alone in this.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying bloggers are evil or bad, just that their interest in the team means the team can safely ignore them. Whereas teams can’t safely ignore other media outlets because those outlets aren’t driven by interest in the team.
The Rangers for example, can safely ignore bloggers because the bloggers will go anywhere to get the information. They need their fix of the team. The bloggers would then report that information to their followers. So the Rangers get the benefit (free publicity) from the bloggers, even if they ignore them.
Even better, the Rangers could make an agreement with the Versus for example, granting them exclusive information in return for something, knowing that bloggers would go to Versus to get the information. So then they get something and publicity from Versus….and still get free publicity from the bloggers who will re-report what Versus said.
Contrarily, the Rangers can’t safely ignore the New York Post, because the New York Post could just stop writing about them, and ignore them back. The New York Post isn’t dependent on the Rangers. This would hurt the Rangers with regards to publicity and would probably have some sort of monetary impact.
Why would any sensible business ignore something that could give them access to an un-tapped or under served market?
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are you calling me evil?
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
David Danforth disappeared under suspicious circumstances…
just sayin.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 30, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
If I have learned anything from movies it’s that when I am a billionaire the hot girl is going to be begging for me to take her in.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Because press box access gets you into the game for free, and that sure as hell beats trying to buy tickets to TO games ;)
DING DING DING
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I'm using my actual name
and technically my pension plan owns a large chunk of the team… and works FOR me… I employ IT… not the other way around… when can I get my credentials?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
P.S.
Swearing doesn’t equate to sewage.
People swear in a lot of different jobs… and it doesn’t affect whether or not they get to work there. Hell even television and magazines and radio have swearing. If that is one of his pillars of justification he has no leg to stand on. Why are we stuck in the 1950’s on the idea of filtering what people WANT to listen to for their benefit?
I think 95% of hockey fans would rather read a well put together article with the occasional swear word than a complete fabrication that makes no sense but uses the Queen’s English.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t let any of your students read what you just wrote.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
They already have.
Not likely to be a problem.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
The fact that I contribute to a blog
is known by my superiors… and my co-workers… and my students… none of them care as long as things are reasonably above board.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh and
Kids already know they’re allowed to swear at work… it’s just an issue of who you swear at and when/why.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I know, I was kidding.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Gotcha.
It’s too early for me to follow sarcasm/irony at this point.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
These things happen.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I think readers south of the border would prefer things be written in amurican.
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Aug 30, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok
that makes sense… If Mark Twain was writing about the Leafs it would be ok I guess.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
reply fail
I guess Mark Twain or JD Salinger’s English would work fine for me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I love your response! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Twitter: RJAndTheCity
Web site: R.J. And The City
Anonymous blogging can hide conflict of interest
Working journalists are focused on anonymity because it’s a staple of responsible journalism.
There is a place for anonymous comments in a newspaper or on a blog, and that place is the comments section here, or sometimes in news stories.
But the place for anonymity isn’t the byline. If the writer is anonymous we don’t know who he is and whether or not he has an agenda or a conflict of interest, as is so very often the case.
For instance, if the writer attacks the Leafs all the time, is he a former Leafs employee? Or was he spurned by the Leafs? Or maybe he just hates the team owner for some personal reason.
If he attacks an agent, is he a rival agent or someone in management?
If he attacks the MSM constantly, was he spurned by the MSM or fired by the MSM?
It’s good to know — crucial to know sometimes — if there is any axe to grind, or any conflict of interest. That’s why we’re focused on this. We believe in responsible journalism.
Cheers David Staples, The Cult of Hockey @ The Edmonton Journal
by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Aug 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT reply actions
This is a considerably better point than anything Working Class Howard made. Thanks for stopping by.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Indeed, and I see the issue, but it’s not like either you or PPP change your name constantly to try and remain anonymous, or that you are writing with some sort of agenda.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
And as they keep saying
if anyone wants to look up who they are… it takes 2 seconds.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Knowing someone’s name does not mean you necessarily know their biases. Why does Howard blame the fans? Why does Cox hate Pat Quinn? We don’t know who Eklund is, but he’s consistently bad, so we know to avoid him. It doesn’t really matter why he has a compulsion to make things up.
I agree with your point generally, but anonymity is not necessarily completely anathema to credibility. Or, put another way, PPP and Chemmy aren’t “really” anonymous. They’ve established their reputations. It doesn’t matter under what name they’ve done so.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 30, 2010 12:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Beat writers and other journalists usually try and stay pretty neutral in their writings as well. They write like players interview, usually pretty bland and inoffensive to everyone. Im sure teams are worried that the writing style might also reflect how people act while there or might cause them to write articles with their new found knowledge they would prefer remain un written. For websites you would have to credential people whereas now im under the impression they credential news agencies.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Which is why it stand out when some of them clearly have some bias, but don’t want to own up to it. If it is about agendas, the issue is not with having one, but with standing by it, and with backing it up. You don’t need a real name to do that. And having a real name doesn’t automatically give credibility. See below re CoxBloc. Or does their skewering of Cox credibility not count because they are a blog? The content is what matters, not the byline. The byline is or isn’t credible because of that content, not because of the name itself.
That’s the big problem to me. It sounds like David Staples is saying that using your real name and being in a newspaper is what gives you credibility. Perhaps superficially, but not really. It’s certainly better than a one-off anonymous attack, but that’s not what this blog is.
DGB said it below: it’s the message not the medium.
by Leaf in Habland on Aug 30, 2010 1:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That is a much better comment than Berger’s.
However, journalists do not always reveal their biases either. For example, Damien Cox carved up anything that Fletcher did but has given a pass to Burke for a lot of the things he has done in a similar vein.
Bill Watters is a former Leafs Assistant GM and he has a well known axe to grind…to the hardcore fan. To the casual listener he does not go out of his way to explain that he was unceremoniously dumped.
So I see your point but again, the MSM is nowhere near as clean as it purports to be.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Uh-huh, a Nucks fan mentioned that he like Watters, I enlightened him.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course
Just like they all loved Cox until he turned his trolling prowess on them.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
It’s good to know …if there is …any conflict of interest… We believe in responsible journalism.
Good thing you don’t work for the National Post then.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 31, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Twain, Salinger = red herrings.
by David Staples @ The Cult of Hockey on Aug 30, 2010 11:22 AM EDT reply actions
I was looking for
American Authors of stature… they’re both also deceased so I don’t think anyone expects them to pick up a keyboard anytime soon.
It was in response to the Queen’s English comment I made originally.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
What Ive always wondered is what you guys get for being hosted by SBNation? Do you get more traffic then you would as a standalone site? (I think by now you could leave SB nation and do just as well). What hindrances do you have for being on SBNation?
They get more hits
than they would on a stand-alone… it’s the same reason SBNation is affiliated to Yahoo!… increases traffic through the networking.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Aug 30, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
We don’t really have any hindrances for being here and they handle a lot of the stuff we don’t care about (finding banner advertisers, tech support, they deal with image licensing and a ton of other minor stuff).
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
They build the site up for us so that’s why our commenting system is amazing and like Chemmy said, all of the stuff we’d never do, they do.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
You really can’t be this commenting system.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait I got a question. This might totally have been covered already but it just sort of struck me. Has anyone at PPP got in contact with the Leafs and tried to get press credentials?
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
We’ve had plenty of contact with the Leafs and won’t be getting credentialed by them ever.
We’ve been credentialed by the NHL in the past.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Yea, as has been stated, in a market like Toronto there is no shortage of media.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
So it was more of a “We got no room, go back to your web log” type of thing rather than a “No chemmys” rule? I guess I missed the post about it.
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Just because Jay McClement is the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't mean he should win the Selke.
Well
It’s not necessarily a closed door.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I’ll close the door for good in the next ten minutes if you want.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Only because you don’t get to see free games! I want free games dammit.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
I periodically sites related to the Maple Leafs (sic)
Professional reporters are governed by libel laws; by standards of language use
I guess these standards don’t include grammar or proof-reading.
It seems to me that he greatly overuses commas for pauses for what I think is dramatic effect. Kind. Of. Like. William. Shatner. It may work fine for conversational speaking but I find it distracting and amateurish in published media. I’m not a professional by any means, but it’s the kind of gimmick I expect to be used by non-professionals trying to sound poignant. I don’t actually read his writing so I don’t know if this is his normal writing style but I find myself annoyed by his letter-responding style.
He skipped a word.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
sentence structure gets boring if you always have the dependent and independent clauses in the same order:
Despite looking similar, these two sentences read differently.
These two sentences read differently despite looking similar.
by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 31, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Access for bloggers
I’d love to post about 5,000 words on this whole blog vs. MSM debate, but since I have to go wipe vomit and poo off my shirt, here’s one quick thought:
Access to NHL teams should have nothing to do with platform. It should be all about two factors: audience reach, and professionalism.
As it happens, those two criteria tilt the playing field amost entirely in favor of MSM writers, and disqualify 95+% of blogs from ever getting access to anything. Sad but true.
But denying blogs as a policy simply because their writing appears on a screen instead of a dead tree is just madness. Anyone who argues that bloggers need to take a backseat to “traditional” media is essentially saying that they’d rather see a writer from the local alternative weekly, or community newsletter, or high school newspaper get into the press box ahead of one of the guys from Puck Daddy. And if they really believe that, they’re not taking the issue seriously in the least.
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Aug 30, 2010 12:30 PM EDT reply actions
This basically makes sense. There are a ton of blogs out there that I think have no business getting credentials, but that doesn’t mean that no blogs should get them.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to go wipe vomit and poo off my shirt
If I didn’t know any better, I’d say that was one hell of a weekend you just had. Welcome to daddy-hood. :)
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Aug 30, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes! Welcome!
However, wiping doesn’t work. Incineration is your only hope.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.
well, the barf just smells like sour milk. nothing a good wash won’t take care of.
the other end, I just tried to limit exposure to.
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Aug 30, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
man, I can’t wait to have kids…..
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Aug 30, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
"... morally bereft ... the kind of story that deeply sets back the cause ... "
Though you may not like “Eklund’s” rumors, or approve of his shtick, he neither judges nor takes gratuitous pot-shots at anyone from beneath his veil.
Or is the anonymous name-calling OK as long as it’s aimed at bloggers?
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Aug 30, 2010 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Berger was on the radio last week talking crap about Colby Armstrong.
Any of you guys read his book on the 94-95 Leafs? Actually a good book before he became all weirded out and got on his high horse.
i'm fine with him talking crap about Colby Armstrong.
because that constitutes analysis. If he went on the air, or in print and made a case as for why Armstrong was a great signign or a terrible one, and backed it up with evidence, that’s great. That’s an intelligent thought. I would hope he’d stick to that later and revisit the issue as circumstances change but they rarely do.
It’s the revisionist history BS that I hate. I hate to paint with a wide brush, but what irritates me so much about Cox is that he finds a way to say “i told you so” no matter what they said. Cox Bloc had an epic thread one day deconstructing a cox column in which he had claimed “who ever said Quinn only likes veterans? certainly not me”
Within 30 minutes, a quick Google search by readers had found at least a dozen Cox articles where he said directly that. If you’re going to hide behind the “we have higher ethics and are accountable” canard, then own your mistakes.
So write me a column about why Armstrong was a lousy signing (editor’s note: jesus christ, he was) but if it comes up again later, especially if what you do is give opinion pieces, there’s no shame in noting the mistake and move on to something else. It actually ADDS credibility in my book.
I think many of these guys just long for the halcyon says when you could say something on the air and have it disappear. After you’ve done your 90 second hit, your job’s done and nobody cares.
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
sorry
“Colby Armstrong sucks” would equate to talking smack, but it doesn’t constitute analysis. Neither would “Colby Armstrong sucks because he’s paid $3M per”.
analysis would constitute outlining a position, and then providing the necessary data points to back it up. Comments made only to garner a response are nothing more than trolling.
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Aug 30, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s my biggest beef with Cox too. He will never fail in trying to pretend he was always right.
Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.
Seriously. That’s my job.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
sure
maybe i didn’t explain it thoroughly enough, but i’d love to read a story that tells me why Colby Armstrong is a terrible buy at $3M, he doesn’t hit, intangibles are BS, he plays soft minutes…whatever. Or hell, something else. Take a position and explain it.
Much like half the stuff i see here, i’m not averse to opinions i disagree with. I just want people to back them up with some attempt at empirical proof. If they “show their work” then it’s easy for me to gauge the value or dismiss.
that applies to Berger or anyone
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
reply fail
comment was at Blurr1974 response to mine
Unabashed fan of the surprise 2012 Stanley Cup champs
OK, there’s a reason I neither read nor listen to Berger or Cox 95% of the time, it has to do with the unabashedly cynical and negative commentary that they spew forth on a daily basis. A human being can only withstand so much of that sort of thing at a time before they either give in to the darkness or walk away. The reason I post at PPP is because, unlike your mainstream media, PPP is fun. I can find out about Leafs news quickly and succinctly and then have a chuckle when someone makes a decent joke or when Jared horrendously misspells something. The atmosphere of the site is open and friendly, even when talking about something no ones particularly fond of. Like today, someone running a lower brow site might not only accept but encourage the type of trolling and vulgarity that Howie seems to expect. Instead we keep the ‘vulgar’ language to a minimum (mostly) and dissect the beliefs we obviously don’t share in a dignified manner.
And unlike the Toronto Star or Sportsnet.ca the first time I commented here and the first time most people did the guy who runs the site made good and sure that he greeted me personally. That was huge to me! The fact that the big cheese of a site with as many posters as this one makes sure he gets to know everybody by their handle and get some sense of them from their writing or whatever, when most internet sites and every newspaper doesn’t give a, let’s call it a hoot for Howie’s sake, hoot about the vast majority of their readership.
The people at this site kick butt. I am certain that Howie wouldn’t be able to identify the ‘Supernatural’ reference in my sig, but wrap around curl did. I can’t laugh at what Cox says (well, I can and do, but he doesn’t mean for me to) but there are dozens of commenters here that are hugely amusing most of the time. Howie, you can keep the newspaper, you can keep the radio and TV stuff too, for me at least the sense of at the very least grudging optimism and a realistic view of how the Leafs will do on either a single game or the whole season, whether it’s good or bad, more than makes up for the “lack of credentials”. And chances are that no one will take issue with my poor grammar or my tendency to post rambling run on sentences. Now, lest this post begin to sound too much like a ‘leave britney alone’ thing, somebody make a joke.
Don't think, it hurts the team!
"Kneel before Todd!!"
Wes Werbowy>Chuck Norris
by antrofan on Aug 30, 2010 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
tee hee hee
big cheese
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Also PPP loves Nik Antropov. You’re probably his favorite commenter.
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Green
for PPP love
(Skinnyfish is probably jealous)
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 30, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Embrace your Amateur Side
I am not down with the term "hobbyist" when it comes to independent hockey writers. I prefer the term "amateur". Hobby is defined as "an activity or interest pursued for pleasure or relaxation and not as a main occupation". Amateur, on the other hand, is defined as "a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons". The distinction is subtle, but important. With "financial benefits or professional reasons" comes a host of obligations to the employer. And in the case of the mass media that means major corporations. Professional journalists are essentially corporate propagandists who know how to toe the line, what they can say and what they cannot. When they cross that line, as Berger admits, they are put back in line. I think it is time to discard pejorative connotations to the word "amateur". In the case of hockey writing the best amateurs easily surpass the best professionals in terms of analytical abilities and critical thought. The best bloggers are "amateurs" in the positive sense of the word. Or for those not ready to embrace that term there is that already positive and very accurate moniker: "independent".
by Raja Pakkomielle on Aug 30, 2010 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
Blaming the fans in 140 characters or less
Berger is now on twitter: @BergerFAN590
Can’t wait for all the @LimoMontreal re-tweets.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...
The first tweet @ him that I found
@BergerFAN590 any truth to the Kaberle for Wheeler rumour ?
lol wut?
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens.
To be fair, the guy heard to from Berger’s boss.
PPP ain't nothin to cuss with
The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway
by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 30, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
excellent
I finally unfollowed Simmons this weekend, Berger gets to fill my quota of MSM.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Careful, he might get paid/reviewed based on followers. Go ahead and read his tweets but if you follow him you’re probably helping him, however, indirectly.
by The '67 Sound on Aug 30, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hmm
This is a good point.
Dammit.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Aug 30, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Honestly, this issue with the Sun has pretty much led me to divorcing myself from the MSM. I cancelled my subscription to the dead tree edition of a paper that need not be identified, and I’m not even reading the sites much.
As an exercise in silliness, I dug out the “insider” book Berger wrote about the 1995 Leafs and thumbed through it…he’s still writing the same exact shit 15 years later. Cox? go back and read his old columns; they pretty much write themselves. He’s been writing the same tired stuff since he had that ridiculous flowbee mullet.
At least Carrot Top comes up with new material every now and then.
The Maple Leafs- making me certifiably insane since 1985.
by torleafsfan29 on Aug 31, 2010 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's a thought...
get rid of the press box altogether. If a paper wants their reporters at the games, then buy the seats. Better yet, buy a box. I honestly find it difficult to believe that the Sun, Star, G&M etc don’t have corporate boxes, or at the least, season ticket seats in the ACC.
If conflict of interest is what concerns fine, upstanding reporters, then surely something that equates to a greased palm (free seats and food) should be seen as just such a conflict of interest.
This is my BOZAK!!!1
by blurr1974 on Aug 30, 2010 6:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Interesting concept, but if events charged I doubt media would come out…the Sun had a box at the Gardens but it was for the execs. Not sure if they have one at the ACC.
Bitter Leaf Fan: because sometimes there's no option but to be bitter...

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