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My Mount Puckmore

Editor's Note: Here is one of our first entries to our random draw. The '67 Sound makes a great case for his selections. Let him know what you think or put forth your own.

What better way to waste time in the dog days of August before training camp begins.  I have come up with several different iterations of this, but believe I have finally settled on four.  In chronological order:

  • Conn Smythe
  • Ted "Teeder" Kennedy
  • George "Chief" Armstrong
  • Mats Sundin

After the jump, I'll set out my criteria and reasons for my picks (with a hat tip to Matt Roberts, to be explained below).

Star-divide

First, the criteria:

  1. The first thing you should think of when you hear this name is "Toronto Maple Leaf".  They needn't be lifelong Leafs, but if we are talking "face of the franchise", there should be no doubt whatsoever as to the team with which the player in question is most associated.  This, to me, excludes players like Frank Mahovlich.
  2. Ideally, the player should be consistent with the overall character of the franchise.  The Leafs were always the more workmanlike, gritty team in comparison to our flashier rivals up the 401.  Elite talent and scoring ability is important for the players on this list, but so is defensive ability and acknowledged leadership skills.
  3. History matters.  Contrary to what some would have use believe, this team was not founded in 1967.  We have one of the richest histories in North American pro sports and it would do that history, and our great franchise, a great disservice to disregard players just because the vast majority of us never saw them. 
  4. Winning matters.  Leading the Leafs to the Stanley Cup goes a long way towards making you the face of the franchise.  I can't see picking more than one player from the post-1967 era.  As great as Salming was, Sundin was better and has to be on the list.  And I can't have two of three players be post-1967.
  5. The player should have league-wide significance.  A franchise as glorious as ours has far too many players with unquestioned league-wide recognition and significance without having to choose someone that is dearly beloved and appreciated almost exclusively by Leafs fans.  Sorry, Wendel.  Please don't punch my blood out.
  6. In terms of objective criteria, I'm concerned obviously with goals, assists and points; but also with captaincies and awards.  While most advanced statistics are obviously unavailable for older players, I will refer to GVT since it helpfully "normalizes" statistics across various eras so that players from the high flying 80s, for example, are treated fairly compared to players from various "dead puck" eras.  Keep in mind, however, that career GVT totals still penalize players from before the introduction of the 80 game schedule in 1967.

With that said, here are the justifications for my choices.

Conn Smythe

  • Bought the Toronto St. Patricks in 1927 and re-named them the Maple Leafs.  Without Conn Smythe, there are no Toronto "Maple Leafs"
  • Built Maple Leaf Gardens in 1931, during the height of the Depression
  • Appears on 11 Stanley Cups as owner, out of 13 total for the franchise
  • His credo "If you can't beat 'em in the alley, you can't beat 'em on the ice" defines the franchise to this day under Brian Burke's leadership
  • Member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, which he helped build

Ted Kennedy

  • 694 GP, 231 G (10th all-time among Leafs), 328 A (8th), 559 P (9th)
  • 177th all-time in GVT; finished 4th, 9th and 11th in GVT league-wide in '47, '45 and '51.
  • Member of the Hockey Hall of Fame
  • Conn Smythe was so frustrated with Kennedy's lack of recognition league-wide that he created the J.P. Bickell Trophy, for the most valuable Maple Leaf, just to give it to Teeder in 1953
  • Hart Trophy winner in 1955, the last Leaf winner and only second ever after Babe Pratt (who won in a WWII-depleted 1943-44 season)
  • Captain for 8 of his 15 years
  • Five Cups (the first ever to win that many), three as Captain
  • Renowned for his clutch play and playoff excellence, a 2001 Hockey News Panel concluded that he would have received the Conn Smythe award three times had the award existed before 1964.  Considered so clutch, in fact, that for years after he retired, the Leafs' rallying cry was John Arnott's famous shout of "Come o-n-n-n-n-n Teeder!"
  • Considered a superlative defensive player, tough as nails, and perhaps the greatest face-off man of all-time
  • According to Frank Mahovlich, "Ted Kennedy never played for another team, never wanted to, and captained the Toronto Maple Leafs during its greatest era. He has been called the quintessential Maple Leaf." 
  • After Conn Smythe, the man most deserving of being called the "Face of the franchise".  He is everything Leafs fans aspire for in a player: Skilled, tough, leader, winner.  Teeder Kennedy.

George Armstrong

  • 1188 GP (1st among Leafs all-time), 296 G (6th, and 1st among Leafs who played primarily pre-expansion), 417 A (5th, 1st), 713 P (5th, 1st)
  • 198th all-time GVT
  • 3rd all-time among Leafs for "Adjusted Goals Created" according to www.hockey-reference.com (behind only Sundin and Keon)
  • 7 time all-star
  • Captain for 12 years, longest-serving Captain ever
  • Won 4 Stanley Cups, all as Captain
  • Member of Hockey Hall of Fame
  • Conn Smythe deemed him "the best captain, as a captain, the Leafs have ever had"
  • Scored the empty-net goal to clinch the 1967 Stanley Cup
  • Exemplifies leadership, determination and two-way play

Mats Sundin

He needs no explanation for virtually everyone here, but indulge me with a few highlights:

  • 1346 GP, 564 G (20th all time), 785 A (33rd), 1349P (26th)
  • Franchise leader in goals and points
  • 30th in all-time GVT
  • statistics likely suffered from generally unremarkable linemates and reduced ice time compared to similar players
  • 8 time all-star
  • Remarkably clutch player: 7th all-time in game-winning goals with 96, 1st in overtime goals with 15
  • Led Leafs to 2 conference finals appearances.

 

For me, Smythe and Kennedy were no-brainers.  Sundin was next--we need a modern era player, and Mats was arguably the most talented and accomplished Toronto Maple Leaf ever in terms of individual achievements.  Sittler and Salming both have legitimate arguments, but I do not think either are remembered as all-time greats as I believe Sundin will be.

Armstrong was by far the hardest choice for me.  There were many different ways to go here.  Among the leading candidates for me, and the reasons I did not choose them:

  • Tim Horton: my initial fourth choice, before Matt Roberts suggested Armstrong instead.  I felt we should have a defenceman, and a representative of the 1960s dynasty.  Horton fit on both counts.  His resume is actually very similar to Armstrong's.  Both are in the HHOF, they are first and second on the all-time Leafs games played list, neither won any individual awards or had flashy statistics, both were multiple all-stars.  The deciding factor for me is that Armstrong was the captain.  Horton would be a very, very good choice, however.
  • Turk Broda: Two Vezinas, 5 Cups, HHOF, 1st all-time among Leafs in shutouts and minutes.  He gets the slight edge over Bower for me among Leafs goalies.  I left him off because it is hard for a goalie to be the "face of the franchise", and we already have Teeder to represent the 40s dynasty.
  • Dave Keon: another potential representative for the 60s dynasty.  However, he wasn't the captain, and while it was in no way his fault, the rift between him and the team would give me a sour taste for our "Mount Puckmore".  We aren't the Ottawa Senators--no reason to pick players who are signs of failure (in Keon's case, the failure of course is entirely attributable to Ballard, not Keon).

So there it is, my vote for the Leafs' "Mount Puckmore".  Look forward to hearing your responses in the comments.  I should give credit for most of the content here to www.hockey-reference.com, Tom Award's global GVT available at www.behindthenethockey.com, www.hhof.com, and www.wikipedia.org.

PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.

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Well done!
Like you said Symthe, Kennedy and Sundin seem to be no brainers. That last spot is really the only one up for grabs. I’m inclined to put either a Defenseman or goalie there.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 6, 2010 1:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, there’s a very good argument there, it’s basically a question of whether positional representation matters. If it does, you can pick Bower or Horton to represent the 60s dynasty (which I think has to be represented).

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 6, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn't happen too often

But I agree almost 100% with this.

Well done.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 6, 2010 1:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Hey, thanks for the hat tip!

Always love these discussions, especially with a crew of true blue leafers like yourselves. Having a chance to reflect on the teams history and the great players we have had over the years is a nice.

Its hard not to feel guilty about leaving off so many other greats, I just think that the founding father, the quintesential leaf, the longest serving captain and offensive leader should get the spots….. leaving defence and goaltending off is a tough call to make….. but I dont think anyone else could knock those 4 guys off….

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Aug 6, 2010 2:03 PM EDT reply actions  

the founding father, the quintesential leaf, the longest serving captain and offensive leader

Perfect.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Perfect, except for my reply fail.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

if only mount rushmore had 6 heads we could include the defensive juggernaut (salming, horton) and the china wall (or broda)

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Aug 6, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not even easy on defence. In addition to Salming and Horton, don’t forget Day and Clancy.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

clancy is huge…. he hasnt got enough respect yet

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Aug 6, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

wasnt hap day the FIRST leaf captain as well?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Aug 6, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, for 10 years. Then coach, then GM. He’s on the Stanley Cup 7 times. He wouldn’t be a bad choice at all were in not for Smythe.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

One of my indelible images of childhood games at MLG is him in Ballard’s bunker.

Yeah, he was a great that we too easily forget.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

bought him off the ottawa silver seven for like $25 000 and a bunch of players or something like that?

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Aug 6, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Clark, Sittler, Gilmour, Horton :)

by Cat Smasher on Aug 6, 2010 2:16 PM EDT reply actions  

hmmmm….
Yes sir – I like it!

BS

by MapleLeafMole on Aug 6, 2010 2:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Couldn’t agree more.

Waiting on the Dave Nonis era.

by PassivelyTruculent on Aug 6, 2010 2:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that having thought and reviewed my list is as follows:

Symthe
Kennedy
Horton
Sundin

I think you need a defenseman or goalie on the list and the 60s era needs to be represented. Horton fills both those criteria.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 6, 2010 3:54 PM EDT reply actions  

I initially had Horton over Armstrong so I can’t really argue. You can’t go wrong as long as Teeder and Smythe are on the list.

Plus he founded the greatest coffee chain of all time.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is also true.
Yea the 1960’s need to be represented one way or another.

The Guess Who sucked, the Jets were lousy anyway

by Plea From A Cat Named Felix on Aug 6, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, for any aspiring fanpost writers this is a good example of what you should aim for.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 6, 2010 4:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m down with that list, for sure. In the other thread I had Sittler in place of Kennedy but it’s a tough one. Being 20, my first-hand knowledge is very limited. I’ve read a lot about the 60s but not much about the 40s… I agree with the sentiment that it’s tough to include two post-67 players, and I was really between Sittler, Salming and Kennedy for that spot… can’t disagree with Teeder, knowing what he represents. I’d be very pleased with this as our Mount Puckmore.

by CarlPeelash on Aug 6, 2010 4:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Hard to argue with these choices.

Today's tears will become tommorows Rain.

by Future_considerations on Aug 6, 2010 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Great list but I would still argue you gotta dump Sundin.

Ya, he is supremely talented so he scored lots of goals but did he ever go beyond his skill to help the team? Did he ever lead with his heart the way guys like Gilmour or Roberts or Clark did? Where was he when Toronto were one series away from the cup finals twice? In fact I recall in the conference finals against Carolina the Leafs fell apart as soon as #13 came back from injury part way through the series. He produced points with his sheer skill He never got us past a playoff foe on his back. Ever.

Put a guys face on a mountain because we SHOULD have a modern-era player? Hogwash! This is a guy who wouldn’t waive his no trade contract to help a team that had made the next 6 generations of Sundin’s millionaire’s, a team that made him captain of the one of the worlds most cherished sports franchises. Then he won’t let the team trade him at trade deadline to help said team, and then he goes and signs for all for the money in Vancouver?

Mats Sundin was an elite NHL talent and should probably get into the HOF on his talent and numbers alone. He was classy and didn’t beat his wife and always played nice with the media. He scored some bloody great goals and had some games we’ll never forget and I’ll always think of him as a damn good player.

But in the end Mats was all about Mats. Not who I would want symbolizing my team.

Throw up Salming or Gilmour or Johnny Bower. At least they symbolize what a Maple Leaf should be.

by The Muppet on Aug 6, 2010 5:15 PM EDT reply actions  

I think Mats gets knocked for his style of play and size, much as Lemieux did (at least early in his career). It almost looked so easy for them it seemed they weren’t trying.

I actually remember Mats playing a pre-eminent role in virtually every Leafs’ success they had during his tenure other than while injured. Even vs. Carolina in 2002, he scored the tying goal in Game 6; same in Game 6 vs. Philly in 2004. Facing elimination, down to their last breath, Mats sent it to overtime both times. Unfortunately he didn’t win them in overtime too but his overtime heroics are well-documented (to give but one more example, without his OT blast against Ottawa in 2000 that series was not a sweep and might have turned out very differently).

And if we’re going to hold contractual issues against him, you have to throw Gilmour in there too. I hold it against neither of them.

Bottom line: if Mats were 5’10" 165 like Dougie, no one would question his heart. But in every way imaginable, I think he’s got all kinds of heart.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of perceived discounting of legacies due to contract disputes

I’m surprised that Bobby Baun’s name never came up over the past 4 days. At the risk of dissing Jimmy Thompson, I’d call Baun the best stay-at-home defenceman in Leafs history.

At the very least, he’s the best stay-at-home defenceman in league history to score an absolutely monumental goal (sorry Uwe).

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 7, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

you know way too much about the Leafs to be a sens fan
colour me suspicious

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

When you're as old as I am

You had to root for someone between the years 1936 and 1991.

Though growing up in Montreal has to make me even more shady, doesn’t it?

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 7, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

CODE BLUE CODE BLUE CODE BLUE

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Blue being the colour of Quebec

But wait, the Leafs wear blue and the Habs wear red, so that means ….

I’m so confused now

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 7, 2010 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

You were rooting for a team in 1936?

Jeez dude… you’re pushing 70?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 7, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just trying to feed the meme

…. and then when my Sens moved to St. Louis in ‘36, we’d go down to the rink for a skate and say, “Gimme two beavers for a moose …. what, with skating costing 15 cents at the time …. and if we got hungry, we would snack on the onion on our belt …. onions being the only food we had due to the war and all ….”

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 7, 2010 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

You get off my lawn, you

Wait, where am I? And who are you? I’m hungry …. and cold …. wait, where am I?

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 7, 2010 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

you know what scares me?

everything!

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hurray, it's spring and we can finally go outside

But I don’t like the looks o’ dem teenagers over there, let’s go back inside.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 7, 2010 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

And what war was that going on in ’36? The Spanish Civil War? hahah

by CanadianMaple09 on Aug 7, 2010 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are incorrect

You can argue that he doesn’t belong on the mountain – but to say he only cared about himself is fallacy.

This guy played with the garbage given to him and still managed to score a point per game. Check his stats – he is clutch.

He negotiated his right to a no trade clause, so don’t shit on him for not wanting to waive it.

Sure we all had hard feelings when the reason he gave was because he didn’t think it was right to go to a team part way through the year – and then did that exact thing with the Canucks, but to say Mats was all about Mats?

His presence helped keep this team respectable, and a lot of us only fully realized his impact after he left.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 6, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree, I can think of many a time where he threw the team on his back and dragged it into the win column.

Today's tears will become tommorows Rain.

by Future_considerations on Aug 6, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agred.

Also, I agree. And rec’d.

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 6, 2010 5:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Johnny Bower

Syl Apps. eeder himself said Apps is best all time.

Any Leaf Mount Rushmore most include them. Also, criteria MUST state that the player has ONLY EVER worn a Leaf uniform.

by Johnny Bower's Pokecheck on Aug 6, 2010 5:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Also, criteria MUST state that the player has ONLY EVER worn a Leaf uniform.

I think that’s a silly criteria.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Aug 6, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re both worthy, the question is who you drop. I also can’t agree with your second paragraph. Horton, Borje, Clark, Sundin… are they not true Leafs?

Even Johnny Bower played for the Rangers, remember.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

A player’s tremendous contributions to the Blue and White shouldn’t be disregarded because he happened to be drafted by another team or played with another team.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Aug 6, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

history tends to be forgotten when compiling lists like this

thats why a guy like Sundin gets mentioned more than a god like Conacher

by Johnny Bower's Pokecheck on Aug 6, 2010 5:45 PM EDT reply actions  

True

but despite everyone’s Herculian attempt at being impartial, unbiased, and giving credit to every era in our history, this is a blog written by a couple guys under 30, with the majority of commenters (not all) being in the same age bracket.

No matter how hard we try, the franchise we’ve grown up with dominates our passion compared to players before our time. Stats, books and photos of old times are great, but what we remember most is the period we’ve been around for.

History isn’t forgotten, but it does get unfairly biased against.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Aug 6, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

how abouts a Rushmore

that has a representative of each magnificent era

the 30’s Kid line
the 40’s Apps, Broda
the 50’s Teeder
60’s Horton, Bower, Armstrong Keon
70’s Sittler
80’s Ihnachek
90’s Killer
2000’s Sundin
’10’s Mitchell

by Johnny Bower's Pokecheck on Aug 6, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

See that's the problem

There literally is a limit of 4. Which is why this is such an impossible task.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Aug 6, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Im aware of the limit

i was just having some fun there. kinda like playing with myself in the corner of the room

by Johnny Bower's Pokecheck on Aug 6, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope no tissues were needed.

by hockeyphreak on Aug 6, 2010 7:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Just 43 years worth of tears.

by Tynford on Aug 7, 2010 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

haha

way to slip in JFM/“Socks” under the radar.

by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 8, 2010 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

The 80s Don't Deserve A Puckmore

The 80’s deserve to be buried in an underground bunker, locked away from civilization.

Visit my blog at: http://50-mission-cap.blogspot.com/
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)

by FiftyMissionCap on Aug 8, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually didn’t forget Conacher (or Day, or Clancy, or Primeau, or Jackson, or Apps, or any of the other greats).

I just don’t think their accomplishments measure up to the four I picked. Which is hardly a criticism.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 6, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

Sundin’s GVT and plethora of 70 point seasons trumps those other guys stats and cups and awards and what-have-youse. Internet. Got it.

by Johnny Bower's Pokecheck on Aug 6, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ummm, no. It’s a lot more complicated than that. Longevity, competition, teammates matter. Day had Clancy. Conacher had Busher and Joe. They all played in a much smaller league where it was easier to rack up awards and Cups.

I won’t re-iterate the case for Sundin, but rest assured those of us who support him don’t do so based on “GVT and a plethora of 70 point seasons”. Have a little more respect for those with differing opinions.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 7, 2010 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

hahaha

You’re hilarious. SCARY NUMBERS!

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 8, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

nailed it

well done man. can’t disagree with any of your selections.

Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.

by daoust on Aug 6, 2010 11:59 PM EDT reply actions  

yeah basically
I still want Mass on there, but these 4 would make me completely happy.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 7, 2010 1:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Wait I mean Salming.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 7, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

you mean salmon right?

mmmmmm salmon

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

mass? why would Wellwood be on there?

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

shush you

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 7, 2010 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

SO IS YOUR FACE

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

MAN UP MOOSE

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 7, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

ill man you up!

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I generally concur

and have no problem with any of the choices.

Also glad to see the majority of names that were settled upon are the same ones I came up with on my own… always nice to see people I agree with agree with me in return.

Now if only all those other people that disagree with us would agree with us also, everything would be boring and nobody would have anything to talk about … ever.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Aug 7, 2010 1:15 AM EDT reply actions  

I disagree

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 7, 2010 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

How come so many people put Kennedy over Apps?

Is it the advantage in Stanley Cup winning teams contributed to (5 for Kennedy, 3 for Apps)? The Hart trophy in ’55?

Kennedy was a fine player and an excellent player, of course. Syl Apps was the better player IMO. Apps won the Calder in 1937, finished 2nd in the NHL points race as a rookie, finished 2nd in league scoring several times, was one of the top point-per-game producers every season (lowest finish was 8th). Led the Leafs in scoring five times. Voted to the end-of-season All-Star teams five times, twice for the 1st team All-Stars. Apps played for ten seasons, interrupted by three years of military service (it appears he left the club in the middle of the 1942-43 season) during WWII. Kennedy played slightly more years, with appearances in 14 seasons (that includes a 2-game stint in 1942-43). He had only 56 PIMs over 423 games, and was one of the classiest individuals in the game and one of the classiest leaders to ever represent the Toronto Maple Leafs.

No disrespect intended at all towards Teeder, he’s certainly a good choice for Mt. Puckmore, but I just don’t see Syl Apps getting enough recognition here. Of course, with all the great Leaf legends to choose from, some are bound to be overlooked.

My picks for Mt. Puckmore would be Conn Smythe (who has to be there), Apps, George Armstrong, and Borje Salming.

by Slava Duris #24 on Aug 7, 2010 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I mentioned Apps in the original post – a few others as well.

I think he is definitely in the conversation. The only thing that I think gives Teeder the edge is he played longer (I am not penalizing him for leaving to go to war – that takes some serious courage.)

I wouldn’t be upset at all if Syl Apps was on the Leafs Mt. Puckmore.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 7, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Apps was right after Teeder for me (I think Apps was on my first ballot before I started digging more), and the Hart and Cups werea big part of the difference. There are definitely arguments for Apps having a statistical edge but for me, Teeder had more “intangibles” (yes people, I do acknowledge them on occasion). He was, for a host of reasons, the “Quintessential Leaf”.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 8, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I do think Teeder can be mentioned in the same breath as Apps, overall. I’d personally like to see Apps getting recognition he deserves, too, for the part he played in the Leafs dynasty of the 1940s. That’s my favourite era in Leafs history (not the more talked about 1960s) and I’d be very pleased if 1967ers completed a writeup on that period, not to press him. :)

by Slava Duris #24 on Aug 8, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tough to argue with 6 Cups in 10 years.

I do get the impression that league-wide scoring declined fairly significantly throughout the 40s, which hurt Teeder’s totals. But as you point out, Apps did pretty damn well in terms of league rankings.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 8, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

The "Big M."

Just wondering why Frank Mahovlich Is not mentioned? His 48 goals in a season stood for 21 years. He was the highest ranking player who spent most of his career with The Leafs at #27. According to The Hockey News top 100 of all time.

by Rythmnman on Aug 8, 2010 12:03 AM EDT reply actions  

To me, he’s got too much of the Habs stink. When you think of the Big M, you don’t just think “Leaf”. You think “Leaf and Hab”. Or, depending on your perspective, “Hab and Leaf”. That DQs you from the Leafs’ Mt. Puckmore, for me.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 8, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

its too bad as well, he was a great hockey player.

he also left the club on bad terms i think… but so did sundin.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"

by Matt_Roberts on Aug 9, 2010 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

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