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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Part 1 - Is This Contract Open to Review?

1) The NHLPA argued that the CBA does not expressly preclude contracts like the Kovalchuk deal. If it doesn't expressly rule out these contracts, the CBA wasn't circumvented.

2) While the NHL conceded that the CBA does not expressly preclude these types of deals, it argued for a "broader inquiry" and a more "comprehensive examination" of the deal. The language of the CBA, the NHL argued, is sufficiently broad that a comprehensive review of the contract is permitted and in fact warranted.

In this regard, Article 26(3) allows for a finding of circumvention if the intention of the parties was to circumvent the CBA OR if the net effect of the deal, intention aside, was to get around the CBA.

On top of the, the CBA also provides that a club or player can't enter into an agreement that is "designed to" defeat the CBA.

As well, the CBA precludes "understandings of any kind" that undermine the CBA.

Eric Macramalla has a copy of the arbitrator's decision and analyzes it. They both seem to agree with my reading of the CBA's section 26.3 which basically reads that anything not covered explicitly who works only to circumvent what is covered in the CBA is not allowed.

Personally, I am surprised that the league didn't use it to argue the contracts that is apparently retroactively reviewing (perfectly within the CBA) including the Hossa, Luongo, and Pronger deals. This could get very interesting

almost 2 years ago Calvin_tiny PPP 130 comments 0 recs  | 

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Comments

Display:

I actually never thought the League could win this one. Good on them – the contract is obviously messing with the CBA.

by unavoidable on Aug 9, 2010 11:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Does anyone think that the NHL will actually go after Hossa, Luongo or Pronger? That’s a surefire way to make things super ugly before discussion of a new CBA.

by zekebud on Aug 9, 2010 11:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t see how they can go after Hossa since he’s already played one year of the deal. If they do that, Hossa would probably have to forfeit last season’s salary, and how do you let Chicago keep their cup without it being tainted?
I still don’t see the big deal about Pronger’s contract since it has to stay on the cap even if he retires at the end of it, but it doesn’t start until the season does so I guess they could. Same for Luongo.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right about Pronger. His name need not be invoked as there is absolutely no circumvention involved (though whether the Flyers had intended to is another story).

As for Luongo, his two-year tail (some might argue 3) is not so blatant that I would expect any retroactive review, but Hossa’s longer 4-year tail probably should have been challenged at the time. As it stands, with the taint of a Cup win possibly giving the league office a black eye, I also don’t foresee a new challenge (though it is within the Commish’s power to do so).

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hossa’s contract was “investigated” and I’m not sure we’ve ever heard the results of the investigation… have we?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only result

Was that he was allowed to play under it all year, but no, I never heard anything other than that the contract had been approved.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

so the CBA allows for investigations to go on indefinitely, even if a contract has been approved, and they can later revoke that contract approval depending on the investigation. So they could claim that this was their intention all along.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that the ones that have not started can be de-register but not ones that have started.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 10, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Does this include anyone other than Kovalchuk? No-one signed since the conclusion of last season, certainly.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, Pronger, Luongo, and Savard don’t kick in for two months so those have been mentioned.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 10, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

ah

wasn’t considering that Luongo and Savard hadn’t kicked in. I see a lot more of a problem with Luongo.

Pronger’s contract isn’t an erasable-tail deal, though.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Luongo’s doesn’t look that bad to me, to be honest. The great majority of his contract is paying him the exact same salary across the board. In the last 4 years it drops, but only the final 2 years are at $1 mill.
Still a far cry from Kovalchuk’s 6 (?) years at league minimum.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 10, 2010 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Goalies from 1969-1971 not withstanding

I think that skaters actually enjoy a better chance of playing until age 43.

Put up your Chelios’es and your Claude Lemieux’es and your Recchi’s against the Dominator and I guess the 3-to-1 ratio doesn’t exactly reflect the 18-to-2 ratio of the league, but I’d like to see a breakdown of how many skaters v. keepers are still in the league at age 40 (let alone those making Recchi or Selanne money).

As for Savard, I see so little problem with his contract that I’d advocate trading for the guy (be it to Burke or to Bryan Murray).

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Savard’s actually looks fishier to me:

2010-2011 $7,000,000
2011-2012 $7,000,000
2012-2013 $6,500,000
2013-2014 $5,000,000
2014-2015 $1,500,000
2015-2016 $525,000
2016-2017 $525,000

Dropping from being a $5 million player to $1.5 million seems a lot less reasonable than Luongo’s dropping from $6.75 mill down to $3.5 mill and then down to $1 mill.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 10, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

but he’s playing at age 40, rather than 42. 40 is quite reasonable, or was before the concussion.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

…not saying that either might get annulled, they both have clear tail years with incentive not to play.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Playing close to home, and family, should be plenty of incentive ;-)

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fishy, yes

I guess I got sidetracked and forgot what this thread was about.

I do love me some Savard contract, though.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would tebnd to think that the Hossa,Pronger, Luongo..etc contracts have set sail already. They should have raised this back when this type of contract was becoming more prevalent. To try and overturn them would be a farce.

Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9

by Future_considerations on Aug 9, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see it as a warning shot to other GMs out there thinking about setting up more deals like this one. The line in the sand is drawn.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m now curious as to the ideas needed for the next CBA to work out. I think contract limits would be a good idea for cases like this, but I’m wondering how far the league will want to take this issue in the agreement talks.

by zekebud on Aug 9, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hossa’s long deal hasn’t kicked in yet.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 9, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow, ok maybe his should be voided then ;D (Hossa)..and take his ring back also..wouldnt that be the ultimate..

Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9

by Future_considerations on Aug 9, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

as punishment

he has to watch his agent scrape his name off the cup with steel wool that is only polished with hossa-tears.

by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 10, 2010 3:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

really?

but they signed him as a UFA last summer, wouldn’t that have been the contract he played under this past season?

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uhhhh

You’re right. I lumped him in with the others.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 9, 2010 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah
so I can’t see his contract being revisited unless Gary wants to take that Cup away from the Hawks.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The hubby is really hopeful that Luongo’s extension could be overturned. It seems Canucks fans aren’t so fond of the idea of having him around for another 12 years.

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 9, 2010 11:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Can’t blame him, locking up players for long periods just beg for problems.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did somebody mention Rick DiPietro?

by zekebud on Aug 9, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Rick’s got a deal where the cap hit per season is nearly exactly the same as his salary. And it doesn’t matter, insurance pays it anyway.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looking at his contract on CapGeek, he’s totally kosher in terms of cap circumvention (aka: none really), but he’s an example of GMs shooting themselves in the foot with super-long contracts.

But does that mean there should be a contract limit, even if there is no cap-avoiding involved?

by zekebud on Aug 9, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no need for an absolute age limit. Simply tweaking the 100 percent rule would suffice.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

wasnt he the first?..Nice going crazy islander owner

Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9

by Future_considerations on Aug 9, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

His salary remains consistent over the duration of the contract, so it’s not the same as the tail-ended deals we’re seeing now-a-days. If you’re talking about long-term deals, then Yashin’s is the first (signed by the Islanders).

Waiting on the Dave Nonis era.

by PassivelyTruculent on Aug 10, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe insurance only covers up to 7 or 8 years. I recall reading that somewhere when Ovechkin signed his deal…

I have nothing interesting to say.

by blurr1974 on Aug 9, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

but hold on...

Wasn’t it until recently, ( for those that followed hockey for over 20 yrs) that free agency didn’t exist. In fact teams owned players and traded them away when they wanted. The whole free agent thing is still new so the idea of having guys for years on end, that is if you wish to retain them, was the norm.
?

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Aug 9, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Baseball’s reserve clause fell apart in the mid-70s, and free agency was basically the rule from then on. It was just a question of the circumstances under which one became a free agent.

Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.

by 1967ers on Aug 10, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, bad enough he had to put up with wellwood for a few yrs..

Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9

by Future_considerations on Aug 9, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Canucks fans are oddly fond of wellwood for some reason.

by LeafFanInVan on Aug 10, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m constantly astounded when one of them wonders to me why he hasn’t been signed yet….

"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky

by Karina on Aug 10, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

So... uhh

Lemme see if I got this right: an arbitrator decides the Devils weren’t playing fair, and just like that Kovi’s a FA again. Cue the speculation about him, the rest of the FA market, Kabbie, and dreaming of Kovi in blue-and-white. So basically, all the speculation (etc.) we did all of July went to waste because we start all over again.
The arbitrator just wasted a month of my life.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Ha! It’s all back to the drawing board. I still don’t think the Leafs chase him, because it appears that Burke has no desire to offer the term (and thus the big dollars) to Kovalchuk. I imagine if someone could wrangle him into a short (ie 2 year deal, at 8 or so per) that would be doable for the Leafs, I just don’t see him settling for much less that what the Devils offered.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still don’t think the Leafs chase him

Um, we dream about players that aren’t available (Rick Nash and Brayden Schenn would agree). Reason ceases to exist in Leaf Nation, especially when we’re talking about an All-Star scoring winger.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what I was trying to say (before I accidently pressed “post”.. stupid laptop) is that I’m going back to dreaming. Wake me up when Kovi signs for 16 years.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I say he signs shorter. 5 years.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

6

Deal or no deal?

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I say they offer him something like 40 or so million for 5/6 years.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I say

Kovi gets frustrated and runs away to Russia.
They care about hockey there (ie. the market’s there), and they’re willing to give him money. He won’t even have to use currency exchange every time he goes home.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

i dont think he’s interested. the money has been there all along. but there is that whole sense of it being an “old man’s league” that the young superstars are figuring out.

by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 10, 2010 3:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

The KHL is basically the WHA. They might nab one or two stars, but the rest are either old guys, young guys, people putting in time until an NHL job comes up, or players of lesser quality.

Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.

by 1967ers on Aug 10, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

My dart at the wall is 12 years, $84 mill.

by Nirbo on Aug 9, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

LA ‘offered’ 13/80

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

wasn't the rumour

15 years and $80? I have to assume there’s a tail in there. It might have passed muster if they had kept it to that level though.

by Nirbo on Aug 9, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never said people won’t dream for it, all I’m saying is I think it’s unlikely the Leafs get him.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

But we can still dream, so my month was still wasted.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think his deal isn’t directly holding up anything with Kaberle. I just think teams aren’t giving Burke a fair price for him

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not, because most teams in need of scoring won’t want a defenceman.
It’s just that I’m tired of hearing all of this and I need Kovi to just sign somewhere and let us get on with our lives of analysing our own players (Kabbie)

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reason

is wielded with great frequency round these parts. It is often hitched to rather nakedly biased motivations, or stuffed in a closet if it just won’t fit. :)

by Nirbo on Aug 9, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree about the Kovie speculation.

During the period of time that Kovie’s contract was in limbo, a good number of FA forwards decided to sign with new teams, believing that either a) the league or the arbitrator would eventually approve the contract, or b) that they were sick of waiting. The lesser lights like Poni, Frolov, and Selanne are no longer waiting for Kovalchuk to decide where to play, so I don’t think that Kovalchuk impedes movement in the FA/trade market in the same way he initially did on July 1st. It’s tough to evaluate exactly what kind of effect this has on a Kaberle trade, but I would guess less effect than the fact that the deadline to trade him is in six days.

Furthermore, I don’t see that this process has really lead to any acrimony between Kovalchuk and The Devils, so it seems likely to me that he’ll simply re-negotiate a deal with a slightly shorter tail, and slightly higher cap hit in New Jersey again. I guess this is speculation on my part, but since a lot of other teams moved on from the Kovie sweepstakes snapping up other FA’s (and putting significant dents in their available budgets or caps) there are probably fewer teams interested in him now than ever.

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 9, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t Selanne re-sign with the Ducks?
I personally don’t think it’ll impact the Kaberle trade (?) very much, just that people will be speculating on what these developments could mean for Kabbie’s value.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, but he was a FA nonetheless. Had the ducks been serious about Kovalchuk (yeah they probably weren’t), they wouldn’t have re-signed Selanne. Also, any other team looking to pry him out of Anaheim is no longer forced to wait for his decision.

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 9, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

To add to the Kaberle point,

How many of the likely suitors for Kaberle would even have had interest in Kovalchuk aside from LA? Dallas? Philly? Buffalo?

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 9, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only team that I can think of

off the top of my head that has serious problems on D is Washington.
And I don’t think they were in the running for Kovi.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I haven’t heard of them being serious bidders for Kaberle, either.

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 9, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

True

but I was thinking of D in general.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

So to answer your question, I don’t know.

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 9, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is all a big threat by the league. Basically, these kind of deals are going to end here and now. The likelihood of the NHL suddenly forcing teams to renegotiate long term contracts with their best players on the eve of the season is incredibly low. Even lower is the possibility that they become free agents. If that were the case, Bettman would be looking for a new job shortly.

but no pop

by birky on Aug 9, 2010 11:28 PM EDT reply actions  

No, it’s a full on shot across the bow. No more long term deals with low money tails.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s obvious the Kovy was extreme, but where is that limit? Who will be the first to test the NHL on this? Do you think the Devils will end up back in this spot again soon for not backing off enough?

by zekebud on Aug 9, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if the Devils get fined or have an imposed cap reduction to swallow this season.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 9, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Somehow I was under the impression that there wasn’t any penalty… not sure why.

The obvious difference between this and, say, the Frogren deal, is that Frogren had played for The Leafs for a significant time before the league was either handed extra information about the nature of the deal or player, and decided it was against the rules. The Leafs had (I suppose, in the league’s eyes) successfully cheated the CBA for a while, whereas the Devils simply submitted a contract for approval, and didn’t get it.

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 9, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bettman got what he wanted

I doubt he ever had any intention of penalizing the Devils.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reads like any punishment is dependent on there being an intent to circumvent. That wasn’t the ruling here.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 9, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I respectfully disagree
“The dynamics of this SPC, with particular reference to its final six years, are such that there is scarce reason for Either player or Club to continue the relationship. The incentives are strongly to the contrary.”

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

From the decision:

Nothing in this Opinion should be read as suggesting that either the Club or Mr. Kovalchuk operated in bad faith or on the basis of any assumption other than that the SPC was fully compliant with the CBA.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 9, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Touche

I would counter with:

In this case, the record strongly supports the claim this contract is
"intended to, or has the effect" of defeating or circumventing the Salary Cap
provisions of the CBA. The overall structure of this SPC reflects not so much the
hope that Mr. Kovalchuk will be playing in those advanced years, but rather the
expectation that he will not.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mine clearly has precedent and supercedes yours.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 10, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're challenging

the overlord PPP on who’s been on PPP the longest?

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 10, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's kidding

And it’s actually not me. It’s one of the SBN developers.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 10, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I realised my sarcasm detector’s broken again (it happens when I’m tired).
So.. you’re… not.. the overlord?
/world comes crashing down

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 10, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even Darth Vader had to answer to someone.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Until he threw him down the pipe or whatever it was.

Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.

by 1967ers on Aug 10, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whose site was first out of the gate?

I’m gonna assume Mirtle was up and running first, and I think Mile High Hockey claims to be the 2nd member of SBN’s hockey.

Does that make them an older franchise than yourself?

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe,

but postings from earlier franchises don’t count.

by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 10, 2010 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

On the hockey side? Die By the Blade was first I believe.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 10, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know how the original matrix was created with a man inside? Well that’s like this sbn dude and ppp

Kinky

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 10, 2010 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

We all know it’s Jared.

Brain: The irony of it all, Pinky. Years of trying to take over the world, and all I had to do was say "truculence".
Follow me I'm Boring!

by blindfolded tank driver on Aug 10, 2010 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

He already had 2000 posts when SBnation started up.

Figure that out.

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

Albert Einstein

by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Aug 10, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the event that the System Arbitrator finds that a circumvention has been committed by a Club or a Club Actor, the Commissioner may impose any or all of the following penalties and/or remedies set forth
below:

Where does it say anything about intent?

by The '67 Sound on Aug 10, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Huh

Thought it had to be intentionally. Well, there you go.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 10, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Quisp’s been ranting on this point. He’s really lapping the field in the Koval-sphere.

by The '67 Sound on Aug 11, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Club or Club Actor, directly or indirectly, may: (i) enter into any
agreements….if either (i) or (ii) is intended
to or has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the
intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement

by Nirbo on Aug 9, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

From 26.3a:
No Club or Club Actor, directly or indirectly, may: (i) enter into any
agreements….if either (i) or (ii) is intended
to or has the effect of defeating or Circumventing the provisions of this Agreement or the
intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement

…or has the effect of. Key.

by Nirbo on Aug 9, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

What's a

“Club Actor”?

What would we have to do to get Crosby on the Leafs...?
Wishful thinking never ends in Leaf Nation. For now, Go Leafs! (and Pens!)

by Leafer87 on Aug 10, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously, anyone with the authority to sign a player contract.

But “Mickey Rourke” is an acceptable answer as well, I think.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

A general manager (or maybe a guy like Toskala who is pretending to be a goalie).

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I suspect that permits Mr. Bloch to make his ruling, yes

But within his ruling, I am arguing that he uses some language that implies he finds that the Player and Club have intended to cirmvent the CBA.

Though PPP makes a strong case that his Opinion is not so.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t disagree with that.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah?

Well then I do. [anything to be contrary]

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

If we two don't stop arguing

I’m sure someone will turn this blog right around and we’ll all have to go home.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just replicate the Hossa terms

Give Kovy the same deal he already signed – $102M over 17 years with a $6M cap hit – only restrict the tail to 4 years of $1M and the league can’t say no.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

To satisfy all the complaints that the arbitrator put forward, they’d also have to extend or completely eliminate the full NMC. They’d have to cap it at 15 years, to keep Kovalchuk to 42 which is at least the precedent. They would have to bring the tail up higher than a mill, because the expectation on league minimum is naturally different for 2020-21 (Hossa) rather than 2028-29 (where Kovalchuk would’ve been).

by Nirbo on Aug 9, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

But from a PR point of view

The Devils could get away with even going slightly lower than Hossa’s tail, and safely wager that the league would leave it alone.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 9, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Quisp

needs a big shout-out for his (nerdy as hell) blog post parsing the logic of the league’s argument. He absolutely nailed the reasoning that Bloch used in the end.

by Nirbo on Aug 9, 2010 11:37 PM EDT reply actions  

btw this article has many pie charts and graphs

Today's tears will become tommorow's rain.
My twitter! http://www.twitter.com/tangerinedream9

by Future_considerations on Aug 9, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good article, but…
The player retirement ages from 1918 to effectively present to derive odds of Kovalchuk has a few issues
1) Players are in better shape now, and generally can play longer
2) Players way back when would be more inclined to retire at an earlier age and get a “real” job; unless you were a star, you weren’t making that much money, and even then you weren’t laughing to the bank.
3) The data should only consider retirements after age 27. 54.95% of the retirements in that chart were age 27 or younger. You can’t make the argument that there is a 54.95% chance that Ilya will retire before he turns 28.

But again, I thought the rest was well-done.

by McCabe the Martyr on Aug 10, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

You never know

He may just sign a one-year, $11M contract and then “retire” to Russia the day before he turns 28, as the Devils miss th playoffs.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting:

The contract was to expire in 2027, and there was a No-Move clause that went up until 2017, at which point it changed to a No Trade Clause. Since the NTC would allow Kovie to be sent to the minors, it would give The Devils the option of burying the contract in the minors should Kovalchuk not be worth his cap hit.

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 9, 2010 11:55 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s things like this that put me in the camp of Lamoriello structuring this as a deliberate snow job. Why not just make it a NTC the whole way, even with the gap year? Just so many things criticized.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's strange.

The timing of the NMC/NTC actually implies that Lamoriello actually believes that he might have to bury the contract in the minors because Kovie would still be playing. So yeah, it seems like a front to make the deal look credible.

"Defense! Defense! Common! Do you call that blowing!?"

by JP Nikota on Aug 10, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m pleasantly surprised by the fact that Bloch named so many things that were wrong with the contract… he could’ve easily kept it to one item over the line, and not set such a strong precedent.
Wonder why the NHLPA was so sanguine about his selection?

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:03 AM EDT reply actions  

They should have nominated Ron Pink instead. Just think of the Resrvoir Dogs photoshop implications that we could have enjoyed.

by Spezzal Teams Playa on Aug 10, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t bring myself to care about the fine points
Of this any more I just want it to fucking end

You may be taking Jared a little too seriously

by JaredFromLondon on Aug 10, 2010 12:40 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Never mind the fine points, the blunt end of this one is that any team willing to pull complete shenanigans on a player contract—e.g., 29 teams that don’t employ Brian Burke—no longer have the complete approval of the League to do so.

by Nirbo on Aug 10, 2010 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

The circumvention clause says that anything permitted by the CBA is not circumvention. The NHLPA took this to mean that anything not specifically prohibited by the CBA is not circumvention.
But that leaves only two possibilities:
1. If a contract is specifically prohibited by the CBA, it is already invalid, and contravention is irrelevant.
2. If a contract is not specifically prohibited by the CBA, contravention is impossible.
Which is ludicrous, because it would make the contravention clause meaningless.

by DaveDaytona on Aug 10, 2010 12:45 AM EDT reply actions  

This guy should just have a site called blochblogbloch.com .

A Nation of Masochists
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing - Vince Lombardi

by furcifer on Aug 10, 2010 1:05 AM EDT reply actions  

it should be there...

i think theres a link through bob loblaw’s law blog.

by Death_By_Leafs on Aug 10, 2010 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably a stupid question, but couldn’t they just put an end to this by making the year’s cap hit whatever the player is getting paid for that season, and doing away with this averaging out business? Who is advocating this?

verbeauty!

by A Lindros Jaw on Aug 10, 2010 8:33 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it has something to do

with making a level playing field for all market teams or something. I don’t really know why it was instituted in the first place. However, they can’t really change it until a new CBA is written, so we’re stuck with it for another 2 years.

Tick Tock, Tomas. Tick Tock.
A drinking team with a hockey problem.

by nhlcheapshot on Aug 10, 2010 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

The salary cap was instituted so that Glen Sather couldn’t inflate market prices by signing goons to contracts for silly amounts of money and drive up the market.

Wait… crap…

Also, the salary cap is averaged so you can’t purposely pay all your players less money for one particular season to make a hawks-like run at the cup.

for example, say hossa, kane, toews, keith, seabrook are all making 10M$ a year every year, with the exception of 2013 where they all make 5M$. This gives the hawks 25M$ extra cap space to sign free agent mercenaries.

On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.

by Ubiquitous on Aug 10, 2010 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

That sounds about right.

Waiting on the Dave Nonis era.

by PassivelyTruculent on Aug 10, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

this has been talked about before. if you did it that way, teams could get cute with how they structure deals so that some players have low cap hits in years other players have high cap hits.

i know it would kill hours of discussion around here (and elsewhere) , but just get rid of the f8cking salary cap already. please please please.

Yesterday is dead, but not my memory.

by daoust on Aug 10, 2010 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

O GLORIOUS DAY! THE SALARY CAP DOES STILL MATTER!

You’re next, Hossa.

On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.

by Ubiquitous on Aug 10, 2010 9:01 AM EDT reply actions  

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