NHL / NHLPA Reach Settlement
Long Term Contracts like those for Kovalchuk, Luongo, Savard, and Hossa are to be grandfathered as new rules are to come into place.
over 1 year ago
Steve Burtch
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When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens. - Certified Grabbo Lover
Boring as this may be
the change will be significant, and will affect how we build teams in the future. If long term’s go away… short terms may become far more popular as a means to controlling costs… turnover could sky rocket.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Finally, at least it's over.
Deals like those signed by Kovalchuk, Roberto Luongo, Marian Hossa, and Marc Savard will be the last of their kind.
Last thing to watch out for now is what the teams over the cap do to get under…
20 miles to Legoland!
Well the thing that will confuse me is
Do the cap hits remain the same for ALL existing contracts? and then they change the calculation for all NEW contracts?
That’s going to be a royal bitch to work with for some reason I’d think.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I’m assuming all contracts on the books remain the same, and any news ones get the new treatment. It’s pretty bs in my opinion and shouldn’t be implemented until the new CBA is approved.
When I read the nickname Testicula, the first thing that popped into my head was a vampiristic scrotum that can only be killed with a silver cross driven through the vas deferens. - Certified Grabbo Lover
by SkinnyFish on Sep 3, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah it's kinda weird
that the 30 man NHLPA committee can make amendments mid-CBA like this… I’d be a bit worried as a rank-and-file union member.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
That being said
the exact same thing could happen for ANY contract that bridges the next CBA expiry, so it doesn’t really mean that much in that regard. What changes now, could well have changed then, and it wouldn’t be any more or less BS as a result of the timing.
The players who negotiate deals will just have to work within the new framework, and that’s how life works.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I don’t know that the cap will be calculated differently or if the league will just have more control on what contracts get approved.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 3, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
TOTAL BS
For some reason this is really, really pissing me off
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Without having full details yet of what's been agreed to
I’d imagine that Kovalchuk will in effect be the last “grandfathered” contract – all signings that happen after this one will be subject to the new cap calculations. Probably something similar to the “ultimatum” points that were brought up by Brooks of the NYPost a few days ago.
20 miles to Legoland!
So Lou managed to have his cake and eat it too……..He must have a dirty video of Bettman talking about bringing a new team to Canada
Toronto Maple Leafs: Nowhere to go but up!
Lou gets a win
but the NHLPA gets a loss… they just lost some negotiating strength or whatever for the next CBA… probably wait until all the details come out before anyone freaks out one way or the other.
For now, Kovy’s a devil, and NJ, VAN and BOS are all still over the cap (based on current projected rosters)
20 miles to Legoland!
I don't know how much leverage they've actually lost
there’s nothing written in stone about what they can or can’t have in the new CBA… the idea that all the new rules can never be changed is something fostered by the ownership through the media (which they have a large controlling stake in in many ways).
If the old rules couldn’t be changed, we never would have ended up with a Salary Cap in the first place. Obviously things change, and I doubt the players will ever get the cap removed… but whatever rules they put in place now are on the table for renegotiation when the CBA expires.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I can’t get over how unfair this is. The Devils, Hawks, Bruins etc. get cap relief not afforded to the rest of the league. I suppose as Leafs fans we should be glad there will be no more deals like this because Burke was against them anyways, but if I was a fan of a team with a star up for renewal (Sharks with Thornton?) I’d be furious.
"That’s why stats are so important – anecdotal evidence just doesn’t cut it when you’re talking about history." - Bower Power
by The '67 Sound on Sep 3, 2010 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It does suck, BUT...
The same thing exists for any contract signed before a CBA. and all sides agreed to this just like in a new cba (notice I said all SIDES not everyone involved).
by BCapp on Sep 3, 2010 6:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It does have the effect, however, of handing a scant handful of teams a competitive advantage. They could have just let Hossa’s contract be the guidepost until the CBA expired; that would have been fair to everyone, I think.
It’ll be interesting to see how much of the moral fulmination that came out of Jersey about the unfairness of the league suddenly dries up, now!
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Except
You say when the cba expires. However deals aren’t voided after a new cba. So these aren’t being voided after an amendment.
by BCapp on Sep 3, 2010 7:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I know that; I just think that it would serve the interest of fairness to have a window of opportunity that would close for all teams at the same time.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Oh I understand fully
I am just saying it’s not THAT riidiculous
by BCapp on Sep 3, 2010 7:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah. I should also have added, “a window of opportunity that everyone would know was going to close at the same time.” I don’t think anyone expected the CBA to be revised midstream.
I expect the league to be inconsistent, so I’m not that upset. But there was a simpler solution, and the NHL didn’t mind selling other teams out if they got to stop this kind of contract earlier rather than later.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
It's really not that controversial
a solution. 4 teams are saving less than a million dollars… and generally if they want to remain competitive they’re going to have to keep feeding younger players into their system, which means they’ll have to pay out bonus money and exceed the cap anyway.
As far as fairness goes, every NHL franchise had the ability to come up with these deals before today’s decision, and only 4 of them actually managed to make it work. They win for making it happen first before the loophole was closed…. congrats to them on saving less than $1 mill.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I understand what you’re saying, but there’s still a disparity. Less than one million in savings is still a savings.
The Hawks used every cent they saved on Hossa’s contract to sign other players. Their depth won them a Cup. And some teams had big-name players coming up (e.g. Thornton) — they just can’t exploit that in the same way. (NB I doubt Doughty or Stamkos would want any part of a contract that takes them past forty at this stage of their lives, but there are still players out there it would effect.)
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Yeah, I’m with you Niesy. I appreciate it may not be that big a deal but the indisputable fact remains that the Bruins, Devils, Flyers, Hawks and Canucks (am I missing anyone?) were given a competitive advantage, and the opportunity to match them was them taken away before anyone could reasonably have expected it to happen (i.e. CBA expiry). It’s the principal of it that I find offensive.
Plus the Devils deserve a penalty, not a leg up.
"That’s why stats are so important – anecdotal evidence just doesn’t cut it when you’re talking about history." - Bower Power
by The '67 Sound on Sep 3, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Who on the FLyers?
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 3, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Pronger
"That’s why stats are so important – anecdotal evidence just doesn’t cut it when you’re talking about history." - Bower Power
by The '67 Sound on Sep 3, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
The flyers didn’t gain any advantage on their cap hit, Pronger’s extension kicked in after he turned 35 so his cap hit stays even if he retires.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 4, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's the problem
The Hawks won a Cup LAST year with the OLD rules… there were no NEW rules when they won… the advantage you’re complaining about did not exist.
The only advantage exists is the one going forwards, and at this point, the Hawks have dismantled their team to such a degree that I doubt they win one again.
If the Canucks win it, or the Devils, or the Bruins, or the Hawks again, or the Flyers, then I guess we’ll have this debate again, but that’s a conversation to have after the end of the season.
Everyone has operated under the same rules all along, the reality that any team could have signed deals like this until today remains. The fact that the rules have changed in such a way that the tilting of the board in favour of 4 or 5 clubs to the tune of less than $1 million dollars, when teams regularly are paying over $1 million in penalties for bonus overage is sort of making all of this a moot point right now to me.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
the reality that any team could have signed deals l
ike this until today remains
Yes, the problem is the advantage going forward, as you say. And if any of those teams win the Cup…well, is it any coincidence that all of those teams on that list are considered to be contenders? I don’t.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Don't forget
the Hawks actually went into cap penalty last year by $4.3 million, so they’re dealing with a smaller cap allotment than the rest of the NHL to begin with anyway. As for the Bruins they finished 2nd in the bonus category ahead of the Leafs so their cap allotment was reduced by $1,759,795… again more than they’re saving from the Savard deal (which works out to $70,000… really not worth worrying over anyway).
The Canucks are the team getting away with something here… they save almost a million on Luongo’s deal and only had their cap reduced by $90,000 this season. Of course, Luongo craps the bed in the playoffs so this worries me not so much.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I’m not holding my breath but I’m hoping that when the next CBA is negotiated these grandfathered long term deals are exempt from any cap penalty free buyout periods. Giving the teams that signed these deals an out would be far worse than letting them get short term cap relief and screw themselves for years to come.
by Mirinov's Nose on Sep 4, 2010 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
@DarrenDreger dropping knowledge
5 years now defines a long-term contract.
35 yr old player signs 7 yr deal, the first 5 yrs of determine aav. Cap hit in year 6 + 7 would be actual value of his deal in those yrs.
players 36-40, amount used for aav is a minimum $1 million. (even if actual salary is less).
New rules only apply to contracts negotiated and filed after today’s date. They do not retroactively apply to existing contracts.
20 miles to Legoland!
Here's what I get from what I'm reading on TSN
Hossa’s deal would instead of being a cap hit of $5,725,000 would be the average of the first 10 years of his deal and then his cap hit in the final year would only be the $1 million he’s being paid. That means instead of $5,725,000 it would change to $6,230,000 for the first 10 years of the deal.
Luongo’s cap hit would become $6.2 million for the next 10 years (instead of $5,333,333), Savard’s would become $4.14 million (instead of $4,007,143), and Zetterberg’s wouldn’t change, and Franzen’s wouldn’t change.
Really this isn’t changing things THAT much… Hossa and Luongo are the two that are making the largest impact (and Kovalchuk’s), but it’s really not that ridiculous. The Hawks are saving $505,000 and the Canucks are saving $866,667… in the grand scheme it’s not that much.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I also find this comment in the TSN story kind of funny:
These new rules will only apply to contracts negotiated and filed after Sept. 3. They do not apply retroactively to existing contracts, therefore long-term deals signed by the likes of Henrik Zetterberg and Rick DiPietro would remain unaffected by Friday’s decision.
Ironically even WITH these new rules Zetterberg and DiPietro would be unaffected BECAUSE THE NEW RULES DON’T CHANGE THEIR CAP HIT. God it’s nice to know the guys doing all the leg work on these story’s know the ins and outs of what they’re posting. ;)
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
stories even
if you’re not sure what I’m getting at above, Zetterberg’s deal expires when he’s 40 and the final two years have a cap hit of $1 million, and DiPietro’s deal has the same value for every single year it’s in effect and it expires when he’s 38… neither one would change a cent.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Final two years have a salary of that, not a cap hit of that.
Hockey Blog Adventure: New Post: SBNation Mock Draft Protected Players (I'm also on Twitter.) GO BRUINS! (and Wild!)
by Cornelius Hardenbergh on Sep 3, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry
that is what I meant… salary of $1 mill not cap hit you are correct. That’s how I got the original “no change” conclusion.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Yeah pretty dumb on TSN’s part
We all know that dipietro is the same amount every year, so what does the new rules have to do with him?
He has a long contract
so they idiotically assumed that means it MIGHT have affected it, without actually working through the math to figure out if it would or not.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I wonder if this is one of those examples
of MSM professionalism where they rigorously fact check all of their work so as to appear professional in all things professional… unlike blogs.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I think you’re reading a bit too much into it. That TSN writer wasn’t sitting at their desk thinking “hmm how can I write this so as to stick it to the bloggers in their basements hurr hurr”
But if it makes you feel better/superior, then go for it.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Sep 4, 2010 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Let's see
Ian Mendes at Sportsnet wrote the following less than a week ago (directed at bloggers):
Rule #3 – Proof Your Work
Your credibility is compromised when you misuse words like "its", "their" and "who’s". If you are going to launch grenades at the media, make sure you don’t open yourself up to criticism with grammatical errors. It cheapens the quality of your work and your argument looks week. Whoops. I meant to say your argument looks weak.
I think the same sentiment goes for fact checking… if your point is completely irrelevant, it makes your writing and/or analysis look weak.
But hey I guess that’s why people are reading blogs anyway.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 4, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Ian Mendes is a douche, but then most columnists/media “personalities” are.
I have no problem antagonizing columnists or whomever who are clearly doing the same with bloggers, but when you jump over every single typo as some kind of grand evidence of moral superiority or vindication for the existence of blogs, then that is a tad arrogant and really not all that different from what the MSMers are doing.
I’m not defending writers who make mistakes; all I’m saying is a cigar is sometimes just a cigar.
Professional cusser causer.
by T is for Truculence on Sep 4, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that's more
for the cough simpletons who would ask questions later about the Zetterberg and DiPietro deals, not knowing any better… I just assumed they were being proactive for stupid questions.
20 miles to Legoland!
How about “Lou gets away with it again” rule.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 3, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see the Devils winning
a Cup anytime soon. Brodeur is aging, they have no replacement, and despite Kovalchuk’s offensive wizardry, they can’t hold the team together the way it’s constituted so they’ll need to make deals to get under the cap.
This isn’t something I’m going to spend time agonizing over as unfair for any other team… particularly the Leafs.
The difference in money amounts to an NHL team having another ELC contract on the books, or another player like John Mitchell…. being able to carry another top flight prospect is great, but I don’t think any of those clubs HAVE another top flight prospect to add to their rosters.
As for paying one more player an extra $800 K or whatever, or two extra players $400 K… etc. I don’t see that being what makes the huge difference in the end.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
you don't see the Devils winning a cup anytime soon?
I do, i’d consider them contenders as long as they have Brodeur (who, maybe not in tip top form anymore, is still damn good, especially with their defensive system).
Add in Parise, Zajac, Kovalchuk, Elias? They are legit contenders every year. It would not surprise me to see the Devils hoist the cup in the next 3 years.
Once Brodeur is gone however… then they need to rethink their strategy. They’ve been spoiled with above average goaltending for a LONG time.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Sep 3, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Goaltending doesn’t seem to win championships lately… it’s all about defense. The Devils defense still isn’t comparable to that of the Hawks, Philly, etc.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Meh
Just because the last few cups haven’t been like that, doesn’t mean it’s always like that. Goaltending can still steal games.
If Halak had gone crazy in the 3rd round and SC finals like he did in the first few rounds we’d all be singing a different tune methinks.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Sep 3, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Brodeur was kinda terrible last post season, let in some crippling goals if memory serves
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 3, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? This makes it obvious that you just read articles about his performance in the playoffs and didn’t actually, you know, watch the games. Devils hung Brodeur out to dry by playing atrociously, it was not the other way around.
I watched all the games that I devils could (at least 3) this post season and thus the “if memory serves”
I guess it didn’t, fully. The fact that Brodeur isnt able to steal games anymore means that he is, indeed on the decline.
but whatever
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 5, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Rec’d because I get annoyed when people focus on the perceived strengths of the latest successful teams and seem to think that there’s no other way to win.
Now please prove that teams can win in the salary cap era with players who all perform to the level of their contract or under because if I hear one more damned thing about ‘out-performing a contract’ I think I’ll choke someone.
by Mirinov's Nose on Sep 4, 2010 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions
The problem
with this type of reasoning is it misses the idea that it’s quite possible that the strengths of the latest successful teams are actually strengths, and the perception is not out of line with reality.
Goaltending can steal games, and it has stolen cups, but those occasions are few and far between, and I’m not thinking most people would go out and ASSUME it happens regularly, and it certainly doesn’t happen regularly with aging starting goalies who are pushing 40 and typically play 70 or so games in a season.
Jaroslav Halak is a young man compared to Martin Brodeur… Cam Ward is a young guy… Antti Niemi is a young guy… Patrick Roy WAS a young guy… heck even Marty Brodeur was once a young guy. Old goalies don’t usually win a Stanley Cup on their own if they’re playing a ridiculously high number of games.
In the past 21 years, only five goalies have won the Stanley Cup over the age of 30. Chris Osgood, Nikolai Khabibulin, Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, and Martin Brodeur.
The only ones 35 or older were Osgood, Hasek, and Roy. The oldest was Hasek at 37 years old, while Osgood and Roy were both 35. None of the three played more than 65 regular season games, with Hasek playing 65, Roy playing 62, and Osgood playing 43.
Khabibulin only played 55 regular season games, and he was only 31. Brodeur played in 73 regular season games but he was only 30 years old.
This coming season, Brodeur will be 38 years old – making him older than every Stanley Cup winning netminder from the past two decades of hockey. Last season he played 77 games, more than every goalie to win the Cup who was past the age of 30.
They’re bringing in Hedberg to cut down on his games played, but Hedberg is 37. No team has won a Cup with a starter and backup aged 38 and 37 respectively in the past 21 years.
They are FREAKING OLD and they are extremely unlikely to win a Stanley Cup with starting goaltending that is that old.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
woops
forgot Mike Vernon and Ed Belfour… that number just jumped from 5 to 7. Of course Belfour only played in 61 regular season games and was only 33, and Vernon only played in 33 regular season games… so yeah… still not playing much comparitively.
When Roy won his first cup with Colorado he was 30, and he played in 39 games… again not playing a whole lot.
If the Devils want to win a cup with Brodeur carrying them through the playoffs, he’ll only play like 35-40 games this season… somehow I don’t see that happening.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
They have to
remove pieces of the puzzle to get under the cap now that Kovy’s contract is accepted by the NHL.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Kovy's deal
is worth a reported $6.67 million… that puts the Devils at $2,971,666 over the cap, and they’ve only signed 21 players. That’s 12 forwards including Kovalchuk, 7 D, and 2 goalies.
They have to trade away at least one large contract, or possibly 2 smaller ones just to get under the cap. They are going to lose someone of value, or nobody will help them… and frankly I don’t see anyone helping them given the way they’ve gotten away with using the CBA loophole for the last time.
Dainus Zubrus is making $3.4 million and would do the trick on his own, if they bring on a salary around league minimum. Unfortunately nobody is going to want Zubrus at $3.4 million unless they can add in prospects to sweeten the pot.
Rolston is making $5,062,500 but his contract is an over 35 deal so nobody in their right mind will likely want to add that contract as it stays on the books even if he retires. This is more of an issue since he only had 20 goals and 37 points last season in 80 games… his production is obviously in decline… so I doubt he’s a tradeable asset.
The other option is likely Zajac, who could be dealt in order to obtain a number of prospects or picks. He’s making $3,887,500 right now, and would be enough to get them under.
Jamie Langenbrunner is only making $2.8 million so that isn’t enough. David Clarkson is making $2,666,666 so that isn’t enough.
They’re not in a great spot, and I don’t care if they have Brodeur, he’s not likely to win a Cup in the next year or two.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they’ll just waive Zubrus.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
there's also
Bryce Salvador who’s cap hit is $2.9 mill which puts them pretty close to even….
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Who in their right mind
would want Bryce Salvador at $2.9 million?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The other problem they have is
they don’t have many prospects left to sweeten said pot… they’ll be dealing picks if this comes to it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
They could just waive him.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
They could
and maybe they will… but that still won’t get them under the cap. They’d be $71,666 over.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. But they don’t need to lost an important player to make it work.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
they can't just
keep waiving crappy guys and keeping the good ones… they won’t meet the minimum roster size.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Zubrus + Salvador = cap room.
However they do it, I feel that at least one of those guys and another bit part will be moved out. Then they can sign whoever they want off of Mirtle’s leftover UFA list to low contracts if it’s just a matter of warm bodies.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm
if they move out both.. then I suppose that could happen… but it also makes the painful business of hockey more painful. Players they signed in good faith are being pushed out to make room for a dick of a goal scorer that hasn’t won anything? That’s a great way to run things.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
See how I come to my “ownership is screwing with Lou” idea?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I agree with it
I just think the whole situation stinks from a cap management perspective.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It definitely does. I am taking glee in it.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
And even if this is the case, entry level contracts are not going to provide a very strong supporting cast.
If you look at chicago and philly’s 3rd lines, they were pretty solid. Heck, even our third line will have decent guys with armstrong & all his intangibles.
NJ will be lacking in that department with no cap space.
Wow, I didn’t know they had $1 mill in buyouts for Andrew Peters and Jay Pandolfo
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm
and then they’re down to 19 skaters with around $430 K in cap space… and only 11 forwards. Still not quite enough probably to solve the problem.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
it’ll be interesting, but with Loophole Lou doing it, somehow I doubt they’ll lose anyone of substance.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
the thing to remember is… they’ve got Kovy signed for the following year too and now they’ll only have around $11 mill in cap space to sign another 6 players minimum… including the likes of an RFA Andy Greene, RFA Zach Parise, RFA Vladimir Zharkov, UFA Jason Arnott, and UFA Jamie Langenbrunner…
they’re screeeeeewed.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
even if you assume
Arnott and Langenbrunner aren’t coming back… that’s still only $11 million to re-sign Parise and Greene and bring in another 4 players of substance… good luck… how are they going to compensate for the loss of Arnott AND Langenbrunner with what amounts to less than $3 million in all likelihood.
This seriously wasn’t solid planning on their part.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh and
they’ll need a backup goalie to replace Hedberg.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This is why I believe their ownership has been jerking Lou around.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
the kovalchuck trade was such a bad choice for so many reasons
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 3, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
As was
the Rolston signing, and the Zubrus signing… etc.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
FREE AGENCY
is lunacy…. seriously… wtf is with GM’s/Ownership in free agency… they all lose their freaking minds.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The only GM, off the top of my head, who hasn’t pulled one of these insane UFA signings is Doug Wilson. Oh and Lombardi.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Doug Wilson...
insane signings… ummm… Thornton + Marleau + Heatley + Boyle?
He didn’t sign them, but having all four on one team is kinda nuts.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Lombardi
took on the Ryan Smyth contract… and he’s signed Michal Handzus, and Kyle Calder… he’s done his share of stupid signings he just has a young developing team now so we don’t notice them as much.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Trading for a stupid salary is different from signing a UFA to an outrageous one, I think. Lombardi could do it because he had so many ELCs that Smyth’s contract didn’t matter. Neither Handzus nor Calder’s contracts were that outrageous, even though they’re definitely overpaid.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say
trading for a stupid salary is just as bad as signing the contract yourself. In some ways it’s worse… I don’t see how the Sharks gained by dealing Michalek for Heatley… they got rid of Cheechoo… that’s about the only plus.
I’d rather have Michalek, and $4 million extra to spend on a better defense.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose. I don’t think it’s bad long-term asset management, though, as none of those contracts Lombardi took on had many years left on them.
With the way the Kings were rebuilding, they had wiggle room to overpay in the short-term. (BTW, Handzus is incredibly valuable to the team in other ways than offense; that was only a bad deal for us when he wasn’t healthy, IMO. I hate to think that we will do when that contract is up and we have no replacement for him.)
In Dinglebarn We Trust
When he wasn't healthy
I assume you mean when he was playing at less than 100%, because if he’s on the IR you get to use replacement salary and get cap relief so that part doesn’t really factor into what I’m saying.
You’ll find a younger/cheaper replacement.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I was referring to fan uproar when he was out due to injury, and the knock on Lombardi was that it was a stupid signing. Those complaints evaporated later on. Sorry to be confusing.
You’ll find a younger/cheaper replacement.
Well, yes. But my point is that I think that will be a step back for us.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
See Phaneuf, Dion.
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
- Certified Grabbo Lover
by Sergei Puckizin on Sep 4, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno, who would you have replaced say, Marleau with if they let him walk this off season?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Pavelski
Setoguchi, Clowe… any of their 2nd line guys could fill a similar role.
Probably not quite as many goals, but the team wouldn’t be way worse, and they could probably spread that money around to improve their new holes (i.e. no more Rob Blake).
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes but how would he have improved the team by letting Marleau walk? IE where else could he spend that cap space?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
On D?
getting Gonchar maybe? or Hamhuis? or Volchenkov… etc.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
They actually had enough space to sign any of those guys before they got Niemi…
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I don’t think they seriously pursued any of them… they could have gone out and tried to land a better goalie via a trade?… or a blue liner.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
They definitely need to upgrade the blueline… I just don’t think it’s having those big 4 that’s stopping them from doing it. I heard they were Hamhuis’ 2nd choice, for what that’s worth.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Vancouver
is the “best team” in the NHL right now… on paper based on last year.
That being said, I think they’ll drop off a bit… atl east some of their secondary scoring will… the Sedins are pretty awesome though.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Burke should’ve tampered more.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I remember saying how they would be a great signing and arguing with a lot of people on here about it… I feel smug and vindicated even if I am annoyed it never went anywhere.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha
I have a feeling I probably argued with you, but yes, you were right.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I recognize
that many people agreed that they would be a good pickup… but there was a tonne of talk about how they hadn’t “done anything”… one of them has a Hart Trophy now.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
They’re just frustrating to watch a lot of the time.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
because they have the puck and they cycle it ridiculously well… it’s like watching them play keep away …
even if it gets frustrating you have to admit they’re ridiculously good at it together.
Just think of it this way… watching the two of them play together is when you’re watching what may well be one of the best hockey “duos” of the past oh… 60 years.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
A SJ with Gonchar blasting rockets from the point would be pretty scary
Especially if you have dan boyle too. Not sure if they could play PP together but that would make two solid PP lines
Meh
Gonchar will be injured for half the year anyway… I just think it’s weird that they brought back Marleau again… although I thought the Heatley deal was stupid also.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If I was them, I’d let Thornton walk next summer… what do you think?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I would also
I’m curious to see where he ends up.
I’d let him go and try to get Richards if I was them.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know that I’d even try to get Richards. Run with Pavelski/Couture. Are there any big names on D that are possibilities?
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm
thinking about it… Kaberle?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha
interesting
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually
if they let Thornton walk, and brought in Chara with the salary savings, they’d immediately become one of the favourites to win the Cup.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
That would be spectacular.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
they could let
Thornton and Kent Huskins walk… bring in Chara… bam Stanley Cup.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
If I'm Chara
I’m waiting for free agency again like I did last time… although Boston looks pretty good in the not to distant future.
He’s probably seriously considering dropping his salary to $4 or 5 million a year so they can keep improving the team around him.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I just noticed
Boston is over the cap right now by $3 million… because Seguin is listed on their opening day roster… doubt he’ll be there when the season starts.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
They won't
let Thornton walk, save for an absolute disaster in negotiations. Big Joe loves playing for the Sharks.
I do agree though, if they had one more great d-man on the back end they could again be considered one of the favourites.
Such a rediculous offense.
20 miles to Legoland!
oh and the biggest
Chara
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Oooooooooooooooooooooh
That would be amazing.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Think
how great the Leafs would be if we let Kaberle go (or traded him) and then traded away oh… Beauchemin? and brought in Chara.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
i cant wait to see how terrible the sens will be defensivly,l they lost 3 of their 4 best defensive players in cullen, sutton and volch
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 3, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
An injury to Alfredsson and they’re sunk.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
An injury
to Alfie or Spezza or Gonchar is pretty likely since they’ll be playing over half the game.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The most important question: what number does Gonchar wear in Loserville? Karlsson is already wearing 55!!!
Now with 25% fewer operable limbs.
- Certified Grabbo Lover
by Sergei Puckizin on Sep 4, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure how deep their prospect pool is with the high finishes every year but I would have bumped up one of their second liners, and then signed a D to replace blake,
Or maybe resign nabby/pick up a better goalie
nothing against niemi
Their D is really worrisome but I’m not sure who of the UFAs this year would really have been worth it. Volchenkov or Michalek I guess.
I think Niemi/Nittymaki will be fine in goal.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Niemi sucks
Nittymaki is a better goalie. They won’t win anything this year though.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Sep 3, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you ever heard of prospects? Oh wait you’re a Leafs fan, all the draft picks you could have used to strengthen your team went to Boston for Phil Kessel. Was he worth it?
dawwww, look at the joisy fan getting all defensive
you know jumping in a day old conversation after it is done, especially to add jabs like that is a little sad.
Do the Devils have any prospects that could step in and produce at half the level of said players they are replacing?
Oh wait, I thought they all got traded to the thrashers for Kovalchuk
tell me, was he worth it?
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 5, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Keep it cute or put it on mute.
Boston for Phil Kessel. Was he worth it?
You’re going to get a wide range of answers for this. More likely, since everyone and their daughter has already expressed their opinion, you’re not going to get any answer.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Sep 5, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yup
their blueline is a JOKE
looking at their lineup makes me think of Atlanta back when they had Kovy + Hossa or Kovy + Heatley…. so top heavy, with maybe 3 legit NHL defenders… they really gotta hope Brodeur can bring the magic.
They’ll make the playoffs with their system/scoring but I don’t even know if I seem them getting out of the 1st round…
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
they’re screeeeeewed.
They’re really not. They aren’t in a worse position than Chicago was going into this post-season, and they did OK. They’ll do the same thing…. ditch the luxury items, keep the core.
Trades, waivers, buyouts… they’re all possible.
Do I think they’re in a great position for the 5 years? No. Once Brodeur is gone (I know you guys disagree, but he’s still an above average goalie) they’re going to have to change their tune. They have not made any perceived attempt to replace him with an even DECENT backup, let alone a new starter.
They still have a few years of window where they are a contending.
20 miles to Legoland!
I never said
Brodeur wasn’t above average… he is… but they still aren’t likely to win the Cup with a 38 year old starter and a 37 year old backup. Based on the history of the playoffs and the number of games Brodeur has played in the NHL I’d say his decline is in progress.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
DING DING DING DING!
we have a winner!
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Sep 4, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I kind of have to agree
Besides the fact that Brodeur is aging (and he & the D were the ones that won the cups of them) they’re starting to throw away any chance they have down the road.
They traded a couple prospects and a couple picks for kovi, and now on top of that they have to lose a couple guys to make cap space for him, AND who knows if they get a penalty for the circumvention attempt
It just seems like they’re working their way into a corner with no high upside—kovalchuk may be a point a game player, but with all the combined assets they’re losing, they’ve probably lost more value than he is.
What prospects (stress on the plurality of it) did the Devils trade for Kovalchuk? They moved Oduya (overpaid 2nd pair D-man, replaceable), Bergfors (24 yr old rookie who spent 5 years in the AHL, looks like at best a 2nd liner, replaceable), Cormier (the only actual prospect moved, character problems and not their top prospect – see Tedenby, Mattias or Josefsen, Jacob). So I see an overpaid D-man, a 2nd liner, and a troubled prospect (not prospects).
how about that 1st and 2nd round pick in last years draft?
just up there you were mouthing off how the leafs picks traded for Kessel seemed to count towards prospect depth and now you seem to be either real short on memory, or back tracking in hopes no one realizes what a shitty argument you are making
Rule #20
by JaredFromLondon on Sep 5, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay I get you're defending the trade, but that's simply not true.
Oduya whatever. Bergfors was having a great rookie season, and Cormier while troubled was a legit prospect. Plus the 1st round pick.
20 miles to Legoland!
by nhlcheapshot on Sep 5, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
If anything, Lou is probably happy for the rule change so that his owners can’t pull this again. He didn’t seem too thrilled with the first contract.
"The only way out is in a body bag. Go Leafs Go." - Blinky
by Karina on Sep 3, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
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