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Clarke MacArthur Suspended 3 Games

It ok. Dion forgive Mac. *bangs rocks*

The NHL has suspended Clarke MacArthur for three games (tonight's final preseason game and the first two of the regular season) for his hit to Justin Abdelkader's head as time expired in the third period last night. Damien Burke, I mean, Brian Cox, I mean Damien Cox is reporting that the 'Leafs' (read: Brian Burke) are not happy with the decision by the NHL.

Video of the hit and more thoughts after the jump.

Star-divide

Here's how J.J. From Kansas saw the hit last night:

Still, a head shot is a head shot and whether or not MacArthur is a dirty player (he isn't), this is what we're trying to eliminate from the game and once Shanahan started the ball rolling, to stop it would be disastrous. We set the over/under on the Brendan Smith suspension at 6, I'm going to set this one at 1.5. This one looks no more intentional than Brad Boyes' hit on Joe Colborne and seemed to be slightly lighter contact.

I actually disagree with J.J. on this one. I think that there is enough difference between the two hits to justify giving MacArthur an extra game compared to Brad Boyes. Below is the video that Brendan Shanahan released for the Boyes suspension and I think that when the video comes out for this one that there will be a lot of overlap:

For those that cannot watch the video, Shanahan touches on the following points:

  • It is a hit where the head is the principal point of contact 
  • The play develops quickly and Colborne makes no sudden moves prior to the hit
  • That lack of movement puts the onus on Boyes to avoid hitting him in the head
  • While he doesn't believe that Boyes was intentionally targeting Colborne's head it was nonetheless a reckless hit.
  • Boyes' previous clean record played a part in the suspension as did the lack of injury.

Macarthur_medium

It is pretty clear from this still that Abdelkader's head is the principal point of contact and that, judging by his theatrics and subsequent race after MacArthur, there was no injury on the play. The difference between this one and Boyes is that this play was much slower in developing and not hitting Abdelkader's head would have been much easier for MacArthur.

Obviously, it's a shame that he'll miss the Leafs'  first two games of the season as it is vitally important for the Leafs to get off to a good start. The one week break between the team's second and third games means that he won't play again for two weeks. As per the press release, he'll forfeit $ 35,135.14 which sucks for him. What this means for the Leafs' lines is hard to tell with so many of the probable opening night players' health still up in the air. Matthew Lombardi will play tonight for the first time in twelve months, Nazem Kadri is out for four weeks, Tim Connolly will probably rest up for a few more days, and now Clarke MacArthur is out. I actually expect to see Matt Frattin slot into the open spot on Grabovski's line since they seem to have meshed well this preseason. It would be a heady jump for Frattin who at this time last year wasn't even on the North Dakota team. It will also help ensure that the long-term trio of Joffrey Lupul, Tim Connolly, and Phil Kessel are given time to continue to try to build some chemistry.

It is certainly disappointing to see Chris Neil escape any punishment for his attempt to brain Mikhail Grabovski but getting that decision wrong is no reason to get this one wrong as well. It helps continue to send the message to the players that the head is off limits as a target whether intentional or not. Players will hopefully begin to understand that they are responsible for their hits sooner rather than later.

Poll
What do you think of Clarke MacArthur's three game suspension?
Just right
140 votes
Too little/I am a Red Wings fan
5 votes
The debate about head shots is ruining the game
174 votes

319 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 237 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I thought the Boyes hit was a case where he tried to lay a big hit and got too high. I think the MacArthur hit was a cheapshot.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

There’s a lot of elbow and very little shoulder in that Boyes hit.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kulemin-Grabovski-Kessel

Make this happen! At least for the length of Mac’s suspension.

Or possibly see Frattin line up with Grabovski/Kulemin and lock down Lombardi(if healthy?)-Bozak-Army on the 3rd.

Chicken Little is dead. Long Live Positive Pete.
Lebda-free since July 3.

by nhlcheapshot on Oct 1, 2011 3:11 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s been tried It didn’t end well.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 1, 2011 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

One too many. Boyce got suspended two preseason games. Just as playoffs should/will probably count as more than a regular season game, preseason games should/do count less.

RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Boyce is suspended too? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

/notserious

Chicken Little is dead. Long Live Positive Pete.
Lebda-free since July 3.

by nhlcheapshot on Oct 1, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah crap. I caught myself doing that in other spots…it was only a matter of time.

Boyes.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

Preseason games shouldn’t count at all. He’s suspended for everything until he’s missed the first two games of the season.

I've been looking at the sky

by Back In Black on Oct 1, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was at the game and the immediate reaction of my entire section to the hit was “DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!” After watching the replay over and over I still don’t see why that’s a suspendable hit. MacArthur didn’t have his elbow out, he didn’t aim high, he didn’t jump for the head. It seemed completely accidental that the head was the principle point of contact. Maybe give him 2 minutes because it was a late hit, but I didn’t think it should fall under the headshot rule.

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by CanadianMaple09 on Oct 1, 2011 3:23 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah Abdelkader doesn’t help things with his ridiculous flopping around

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is another issue

that will have to be addressed at some point. If guys start making ridiculous dives that cloud the whole issue, they’ll have to start suspending the divers too.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Suspending divers is absolutely a move they should make. It’s often impossible for the refs to catch, and it ABSOLUTELY needs to be severely penalized. Hits may have a legitimate part in the game, but dives categorically do not. Watch the tape after, ferret out divers, where possible, and suspend their lousy play-acting asses.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 1, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

completely accidental that the head was the principle point of contact.

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A lateral or blind side hit to an opponent where the head is targeted and/or the principal point of contact is not permitted.

The reason it falls under the headshot rule is because the headshot rule doesn’t care whether or not it was accidental.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

he got a penalty

on the play… that makes it illegal… it doesn’t warrant a suspension necessarily.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say that it did. But it still gets looked at, because it still falls under rule 48.

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Me on Twitter

by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

right but the NHL also says the following
However, as is the case with Rule 48, the referee will be able to use his judgment to determine if the player getting hit put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneous with being hit, or if the check was unavoidable and contact was at the very least minimized.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was in the press release

along with the 10 minute video of Shanny explaining the rule.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

to my eyes

the player put himself in a vulnerable position AND Macarthur minimized the contact

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

he could have made

a much larger blow out of it by involving his elbow or using more follow through… the fact that he didn’t indicates to me that it sort of is on the fence… and he DID get a penalty… so the 3 game suspension including 2 reg. season games seems a tad harsh to me.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

a much larger blow out of it by involving his elbow or using more follow through

Yes, he could have done more damage if he had made a more illegal hit.

I do agree 2 regular season games is too harsh.

RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter

by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn’t stretch at the last minute. MacArthur had a chance to not hit his head and he still did.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok maybe "stretch"

is an exaggeration, but in the still you’ve got up there, Abdelkader is quite obviously leaning forwards with his head pointing in the direction of MacArthur.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

and he was

reaching one handed for a puck that was passing him up the boards… which he extended for as it passed him.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Abdelkader was already low to the ice. It’s MacArthur’s duty, if he wants to check him cleanly, to drop his body and check him in the shoulder. Abdelkader being low to the ice, something he clearly does not do suddenly or to avoid being hit, does not absolve MacArthur.

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I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

saying he doesn't do it

to avoid being hit is irrelevant… they don’t get into the “why” of the vulnerable positioning to that’s not worth including.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

he DID

drop his head to skate up ice… and he does it right before MacArthur makes contact.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

his head drops about as much as you would expect when someone makes a stride. He doesn’t drop the head more than an inch, maybe two.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

if it doesn't move down that far

the hit is far less dangerous.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

just like

I disagree about the amount of time he had to pull back or change his trajectory… so I guess we’ll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Do you think the hit warranted 3 games?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep. The puck is gone and it’s a reckless high hit.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

see

this goes back to my point about anticipation, if he’s moving in to hit abdelkader on the theory that he’s going to pick the puck up and exit the zone with it… there’s no problem… and he was going for the bang bang play, which means he really doesn’t have a chance to pull back …

but you see it as more black and white than I do I guess.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

 I’m a pretty decent hockey player, and I feel pretty confident from experience that I could have pulled back from that hit. That’s part of my point of view.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Andy Sutton Alert!
Andy Sutton Alert!

(sorry, couldn’t help myself)

Cynically Sarcastic
Сертыфікаваны Grabbo Палюбоўнік

by clrkaitken on Oct 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

like I said… we just see it differently… which is fine.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think also the point that Shanahan is trying to make is that even though MacArthur’s hit was borderline the issue is trying to get it in players heads not to attempt a hit if the player is in an unsafe position even if the other player puts himself in that position like Abdelkader has. I don’t know if that’s right or not as when I played, we were always told to keep your stick on the ice and heads up.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Oct 1, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Abdelkader’s shoulder is down around Mac’s hip at the point of contact. Thats more than an inch, maybe two.

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think he’s that low. More mid-back.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

look at the still

his entire head is below MacArthur’s head… he’s not a short guy.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

the top of his helmet

is below MacArthur’s shoulder… that’s pretty low.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Abdelkader

is 6’1" and MacArthur is 6’… so he’s taller than MacArthur and his helmet is below Mac’s shoulder… so he’s dropped his head what? 6 or 7" minimum?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

closer to

a foot in all probability.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

From the point where Abdelkader has turned to when Mac hits him, it’s definitely not a very much difference.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s low enough that his face is running into his forearm, not his shoulder.

The more I look at that photo the more frustrated I get.

Not Liking Nikolai Kulemin Means You Have No Soul

by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I mean, he was stretching but it wasn’t suddenly at the last second.

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Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess

I mean in slow motion it looks far easier to “pull up” at top speed? I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you guys are making it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that we oversell how hard it is for NHLers to make split second decisions. If they can do it with passes and shots and bouncing pucks they can definitely move to avoid hitting someone in the head.

Hell, even Todd Bertuzzi admitted last year that he made a split second decision to avoid hitting a guy in the head so it’s not impossible.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

but a lot of that

“split second” decision making you’re describing is anticipation… we’re ignoring how many missed passes and shots players deal with… the fact that they make so much of it look seamless doesn’t mean that mistakes never happen… the number of missed passes, one timers, etc. in a given game should make that obvious.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn’t pull up.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

MacArthur has enough time to take two more steps but not enough time for his brain to say “pull up”?

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

2 steps?

what video are you watching? in the slow mo he takes 1 step and then glides into the contact… he didn’t have time to “power through” or raise an elbow… and don’t forget how much slower the video is.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

and my point was

he didn’t pull up, because he didn’t exactly have time… he didn’t raise his elbow or apply his shoulder into the head.

Heck even the Detroit guys are saying Abdelkader was sort of in a vulnerable position and there wasn’t much you could do about it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. He did have time.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

you say he did

I say he didn’t… obviously Shanahan agrees with you… but I don’t have to do I…

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he had time. As Birky said, any decent athlete could’ve avoided that contact.

"To be a Leafs fan is to know your heart will be broken in the end."
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by Berezin's Spleen on Oct 1, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say he took two steps. I said he had time to take two steps.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

in a slow motion replay?

I don’t think he did… but ok.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The fact that he could have done more damage shouldn’t absolve him of hitting Abdelkader in the head. Also, it doesn’t matter if it’s accidental as long as it’s reckless contact.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

He got a penalty

I’m not saying it wasn’t a penalty… I’m saying the 3 game suspension is too harsh.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d have suspended him for tonight as a warning and as a record to be more careful next time. 2 regular seaon games is fucking horseshit.

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Considering his record, that would have been nice.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

once he gets the 1 game… he now has a history… so you know the next suspension would be more serious… hell even 1 regular season game wouldn’t bother me as much.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

"he could have done more damage, and he already got a penalty"

also
“your honor, I only murdered the one person and I could have killed more. And also I already had to spend a whole week in jail after they arrested me”.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 1, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. Abdelkader was standing still as the puck bounces past him. He’s already reaching out and then begins to accelerate. It is NOT a case where he was skating and then suddenly lunged for the puck.

The other issue is that MacArthur never makes an attempt to hit Abdelkader in the shoulder. Because Abdelkader is low to the ice, MacArthur should have dropped his shoulder to check him. But Mac doesn’t do that. He just skates right into Abdelkader’s lane with his shoulder up. That signals to me that Mac never had any intention of checking Abdelkader in the shoulder. In fact, this hit reminds me of the Steckel hit on Crosby, only a situation where MacArthur very obviously goes out of his way to hit Abdelkader late.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok well

I guess I think the line he was skating in has something to do with it… I don’t think there’s any physical way MacArthur could have dropped in to hit Abdelkader on the shoulder without changing his path for the hit to the Left, and some of it is a timing issue. If Abdelkader takes off a millisecond sooner, MacArthur’s perfectly lined up to hit him on the shoulder, instead he gets there a little early and makes head contact.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

the burden is on MacArthur to hit Abdelkader cleanly.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

then why

ever include the whole part about players putting themselves in vulnerable positions prior to contact? If that’s in there it obviously isn’t entirely on the guy making the hit.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

You would be correct if Abdelkader had made a sudden turn or move at the last second. But he doesn’t.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

the word sudden isn't used in the rule

it’s “immediately prior to or simultaneously to the hit.”

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's there

to cover someone diving into you head first and then claiming it’s a head hit.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 1, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

The penalty was for high-sticking, which came after Abdelkader attacked him. It had nothing to do with the hit.

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by CanadianMaple09 on Oct 1, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

So why didn’t Neil get suspended?

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because Shanahan fucked up.

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Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Because Shanahan looked at the play, and must have decided that it wasn’t a “hit,” but was instead incidental contact.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup, there is a valid argument for incidental contact and zero intent on the Neil hit
not that I buy it for a second
on teh Mac hit? intent is clear, he meant to hit him

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by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

And like he said in the Boyes hit, it doesn’t matter if the contact was accidental. It matters that it happened and it was reckless. That’s the standard.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh…does he not realize that it was basically everything Neil’s hit was? It’s frustrating we lose MacArthur for 2 games because of a light brush while Neil still has a clean record.

Not Liking Nikolai Kulemin Means You Have No Soul

by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

not to mention the fact

that Abdelkader was leaning forwards at the time MacArthur went in for the hit, which makes it virtually impossible for him to hit anything BUT his head initially… even if he was trying to avoid solid contact with the elbow.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

So pull back from the hit. There was no need to attempt to hit Abdelkader there, especially since the puck was gone and he was in a vulnerable position.

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by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

except the rule itself states that if players put themselves into a vulnerable position and a player pulls back or minimizes contact that it can be taken into consideration… what part of that is irrelevant in this case?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

MacArthur doesn’t pull back. He cleanly connects with Abdelkader’s face.

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I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

my point is

he didn’t produce as violent a hit as he could have… he wasn’t trying to kill him.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

he could have very easily

raised his elbow, or thrown more shoulder into it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, he could have done more damage if he had made a more illegal hit.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right but that shouldn’t absolve him of guilt.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

since when

is a penalty NOT guilt? he was given a penalty… suspensions aren’t automatic.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

So by saying “he could have elbowed him and killed him” is pointless. He didn’t. That’s why he didn’t get more games.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boyes could’ve turned around and curbstomped Colborne after that hit, but he didn’t, so he probably shouldn’t have been suspended.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

ha

right… well I guess my point is obviously that since MacArthur didn’t pull out a glock in the post hit scrum and shoot him in the head means he shouldn’t have been suspended.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

next up we'll debating

whether or not the Hague should be involved in deciding hockey suspensions.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well if a Canadian player hits a Swedish player it could have international diplomacy consequences…

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by clrkaitken on Oct 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh great. That’ll never get resolved.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

or we could just

want some more clarity on what constitutes avoidable, vulnerable, minimizing contact, etc.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well if your problem is that you don’t understand how the the rule is used then say so, and stop arguing that the rule was used wrong.

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by Wan Ihite on Oct 1, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

hm

I guess I don’t see why it warrants 3 games… and I don’t know if any of us know why he didn’t get more games… no one can really articulate to me clearly why this is equivalent to the other 3 game suspensions handed out so far.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

In my eyes, that’s another argument. If you think he shouldn’t get suspended that’s one thing but that he didn’t do worse isn’t really an argument for no suspension but more of an argument for him not getting a longer one.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am bothered by the length

I wouldn’t be that bothered by 1 or 2 games… not happy… but 3 is pushing it for me is all.

I also have a hard time understanding how this is 3 games, but Neil’s hit is zero.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think we’re all bothered by Neil getting 0 but two wrongs don’t make a right.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

like i said

Neil = 0 games, MacArthur = 1… I don’t sweat it… Neil = 0 games, MacArthur = 3? wtf?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would have a problem with it if Neil’s hit hadn’t even been looked at. But they looked at it and decided it was incidental. Not something I agree with, but I don’t think the league was looking to sweep it under the rug.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

but Neil COULD have avoided the contact… just like MacArthur could have… the main distinction to me is, MacArthur was trying to hit Abdelkader while Neil didn’t look like he was “trying” to hit Grabovski… he still hit him though.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

and where does

one accident stop and another start?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ideally, we’ll have a better answer to this after Shanaban has been in power for a while. We haven’t really seen two similar hits, where Shanahan really has to be consistent yet.

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by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is true

and maybe over time there will be some sort of consistent room for comparison… hopefully a catalogue of prior hits? that’d be ideal.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think the scorer in Montreal would have counted that as a “hit”

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where is the

oft mentioned League bias against the Red Wings here? Oh wait, Shanahan was a long time Wing… guess that pops that crap balloon.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Man, I think it’s a terrible suspension. Abeldaker is crounched down so his head is almost lower than Gionta’s, MacArthur barely grazes him, theres no injury and Abeldaker makes a fool out of himself with his flopping around. Hell, the ref in the Liverpool/Everton game wouldn’t have fallen for it.

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Atkinson would have suggested MacArthur be executed.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was watching it and thought “PPP must be cackling in glee right now”.

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I was laughing. Last year Krygiakos got a ludicrous red from Atkinson so this was evening up.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

There needs to be a 4th option on your poll

Laughable. Cause that’s what this suspension is. I understand the new wording of the rule, but if Abdelkader doesn’t dive there, this hit is never looked at again.

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by Isosceles Kramer on Oct 1, 2011 3:40 PM EDT reply actions  

i hesitate to call it a dive at all really, you get hit when you are that off balance you are going down to the ice. the flopping around was embellishment for sure, but you are damned skippy it gets looked at without that, the Boyes hit, colborne got right back up with no ill effect and it was looked at

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by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, you’re going down on a hit like that, but he spins himself around and throws his arms up crazily. To me that’s a straight up dive. As for the Boyes hit, that was clearly a case of Boyes powering himself up and into Colborne’s head. MacArthur doesn’t use a lot of force here. Illegal yes, suspendable no.

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by Isosceles Kramer on Oct 1, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah there is contact but it was definitely a dive. Abdelkader went down harder than an anoerxic in a hurricane.

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not entirely sure what that means

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by clrkaitken on Oct 1, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

a really small person would get thrown around by a hurricane much more easily than a heavier person.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most people get knocked over by hurricane winds. Lightweights get knocked over realllllly hard.

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s the third option basically.

Although I disagree that the flopping played any part in it. That’s as textbook a hit as possible for requiring a look from the league.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I just saw that as an option for those who don’t think headshots are an issue at all

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by Isosceles Kramer on Oct 1, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand the need to crack down on head shots – I’m not paying lip service; I completely support Shanny in his crusade here. But there needs to be a de minimis limit somewhere (cribbing the legal maxim that "the law does not concern itself with triffles – neither should the league).

The hit to the head was clearly unintentional and not obviously reckless, the contact was minimal compared to the power of the contact in other suspension cases from this preseason and there was no injury or serious threat of injury.

In fact, if MacArthur had contacted the shoulder primarily and sent Abderkader into the boards with actual power, i think the risk of injury would have been much higher.

Two games is too much. Considering the mitigating factors here, I wouldn’t have gone further than a warning in Shanny’s shoes.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 3:42 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s a good point. Shanny talked in the Brendan Smith video that the injury had an impact on his decision so he’s not being consistent in that sense here.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

A hit resulting in contact with an opponent’s head where the head is targeted AND the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO OR SIMULTANEOUSLY with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

Abdelkader turns and puts his head down IMMEDIATELY PRIOR to the hit. Otherwise it would have been a shoulder on shoulder check. Shanny dropped the ball on this one.

by Matthew Whitty on Oct 1, 2011 3:42 PM EDT reply actions  

that's kind of

where I’m at… but apparently the onus is only on the guy making the hit? (which is illogical if there’s a whole section on players putting themselves in vulnerable positions).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

A light breeze would have hit Abdelkader hard than MacArthur.

Not Liking Nikolai Kulemin Means You Have No Soul

by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

So he’s two for four on suspensions involving the Leafs. Been perfect elsewhere, do we start to act like Red Wing fans and wear our tin foil?

Not Liking Nikolai Kulemin Means You Have No Soul

by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

considering that he has been in favour of the Leafs on incidents like the Armstrong hit early preseason, it is hard to say either way

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by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah…and really everytime we play the Red Wings I’m shocked at how often calls go their way. Why do their fans complain? I’d be estatic if we got those breaks.

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by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

getting catered to does not create a happy fan, it creates a greedy fan

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by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

and no team’s been more catered to since Bettman took over than the Red Wings.

by Nigel Cadbury on Oct 1, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think we’re alleging a conspiracy here – just that he got this one wrong.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT reply actions  

This sucks for the Leafs and their first two games of the season.
But there’s the bigger cause here, and if sacrificing MacArthur for a few games to hammer further home the point that head shots need to go… than so be it.

by The Muppet on Oct 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

That’s more or less where I’m at.

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by clrkaitken on Oct 1, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think punishing an obviously unintentional head shot will have a deterrence effect on intentional head shots league-wide?

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, because it will make players have to think harder about throwing a check in the first place, if someone (like Neil) who thinks he can get away with making it look unintentional knows that he could be suspended anyways, it deters

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by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

of course

that obviously won’t occur to Neil since he got away with it the last time he did it.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

the idea that mass deterence

stems from individual suspensions doesn’t always follow until the penalties are really really large.

Think about speeding tickets… how many of you are deterred from speeding because of the risk of a $200 ticket that other people get?

How many of you are deterred when YOU get a $200 speeding ticket?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that also depends on whether $200 is seen as a significant sum of money to a particular person.

I’d never be driving 50 km over the speed limit, because I’m not willing to forfeit my car, my licence and a couple of thousand dollars.

But I still drive 110 -120 on the highway.

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by clrkaitken on Oct 1, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

my point is

humans have a huge tendency towards the logic of invincibility until they suffer punishment themselves.

Look at teenagers (which many NHLers are for the record).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly

the point is to get players to actively avoid the head, so that it never happens… in some situations players might choose not to throw a hit at all

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never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

you'll never

get to the point that it “never” happens.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're right

it won’t. I think there’s still room for improvement though. And I’m happy to lose a better player for a couple games if it causes progress in that direction

I’m just imagining if it were abdelkader hitting macarthur…. I’d want a suspension for sure

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would still

think 3 games is harsh for a hit like that… even if it had been Abdelkader.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously unintentional?
I haven’t read the above discussion, maybe it’s the collective opinion here but from what I saw Clarke didn’t try to NOT hit him in the head.

Suspension. I’m backing Shanahan on this one.

by The Muppet on Oct 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The key for me is the lack of attempt by MacArthur to drop his torso/shoulder at all.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

see

to me that’s kind of a double edged sword, because if he drops down further the hit could have been even more awkward for both players in question.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, to clarify: I think the video shows that the head as the primary point of contact was unintentional. Obviously, the intention to initiate contact was intentional.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

In that case, I do think that even punishing unintentional head shots will help deter intentional ones. If you see a guy get 5 games for an accident then you wonder just how many you might get if it’s judged to be intentional.

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

so since

we punish manslaughter, we’ll deter people from ever accidentally killing other people?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm wondering

how plea deals would work with suspensions.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

"yes I did it accidentally"

community service + house arrest

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well Chris Neil does have to live in Ottawa….

Not Liking Nikolai Kulemin Means You Have No Soul

by Clawson on Oct 1, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

what’s the other solution here? what’s the harm in punishing unintentional headshots?

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

with a penalty?

nothing… but if it’s unintentional then you can’t really say he was trying to do it in the first place… in which case how was he supposed to prevent it?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

now we're arguing

that people should be proactive in every effort to minimize contact to the head, and that leads inevitably to the fact that the best way to avoid accidental head contact is to avoid contact.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes that’s true but the only thing actually being outlawed would be hits to the head. It’s a talent to be a good checker and I think there is enough room for contact in hockey for it to still be a physical game with minimal head injuries.

In my opinion if the game of hockey can only be played in a physical way where a substantial amount of head injuries result, the game needs to change. Player safety means more to me than fan enjoyment

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I seriously don't think

head injuries are going anywhere in the sport… despite all the recent efforts. The speed is too high, and the impacts too regularly, even when incidental, to completely remove the chances of head injury.

I do want them to remove intentional targetting of the head, but the incidental, accidental stuff? that’s never going away, so it strikes me as unreasonable to punish it in a draconian fashion.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Macarthur’s hit was unintentional

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

You think he purposely targeted the head? That’s the relevant issue – not whether the hit itself was intentional.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think he was active enough in making sure the head was avoided. I think that’s something players should do.

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just remember how hard it was back in my hockey days to avoid a hit that was already in motion – and, besides, we’re going to paralyze these players with the fear that every hit could potentially attract the All-Seeing Eye of Mordor Shanahan, whether or not they had any intent to contact the head.

There’s would necessarily be a chilling effect on contact in general with a rule that punishes unintentional shots like MacArthur’s.

Also, punishing the innocent is just… unfair. I, for one, am not at all comfortable with ideas of sacrificing the one to the many for a “public good”, especially where that public good hasn’t even been established by evidence as being served by that sacrifice (i.e. that punishing unintentional hits will deter intentional hits – the legal system has struggled with this question for years, and the evidence is more than ambiguous).

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I haven’t played hockey at any meaningful level so I don’t know how hard it is to avoid a check that’s already in motion, but I’d guess that Shanahan, and whoever is assisting him with his decisions, do know. They judged he could have avoided it.

I don’t think that most hits to the head are intentional in the sense that players want to hit the head. They know they will be punished (especially at the current level of scrutiny) and they know they are greatly increasing the chances of an injury. . That’s why the unintentional hits should be punished as well. I think an active avoidance of the head is necessary. That’s just me tho

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

uhhh yes?

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

doesn't seem

to have worked so far.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s really calculable

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree

And even if it was

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by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

The correct procedure here should be a balance of probabilities assessment of whether or not the allegedly offending player intended to make contact with the head.

If we consider whether the allegedly offending player tried to avoid contact with the head, that effectively reverses the onus and requires the allegedly offending player to prove that he didn’t violate the rule.

In law, the presumption of innocence has primacy – when an infraction is alleged, the prosecuting authority bears the burden of showing that the violation occurred on a balance of probabilities. There is every reason in the world to transplant that standard into decisions on NHL suspensions like this one.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

I don’t think it’s fair to somehow expect guys to prove they “tried” to avoid something that obviously happens… it assumes guilt…

although, the French legal system assumes guilt (rather than innocence) if I recall (although I’m neither a lawyer nor a legal scholar so that could be totally incorrect).

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok I was wrong

having looked into it further… it’s in civil law in france also… nm.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

ah wikipedia

1. With respect to the critical facts of the case – whether the crime charged was committed and whether the defendant was the person who committed the crime – the state has the entire burden of proof.

2. With respect to the critical facts of the case, the defendant does not have any burden of proof whatsoever. The defendant does not have to testify, call witnesses or present any other evidence, and if the defendant elects not to testify or present evidence, this decision cannot be used against them.

3. The jury or judge is not to draw any negative inferences from the fact the defendant has been charged with a crime and is present in court and represented by an attorney. They must decide the case solely on evidence presented during the trial.

So really the “state” in this case the NHL as punishing authority, would have to prove MacArthur intended to break the rule as stated.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly. The presumption of innocence is the “golden thread” that ties our legal system together. NHL authorities (many of whom are legally trained) should already be familiar with these concepts, and should definitely be applying them in decisions like this one.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

another random issue relating to this… I think the games things works because players of every level will lose an equal percentage of their income, but since I don’t think the rules are applied equally to everyone I’m still unclear if this will have any noticeable impact.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Comparing the MacArthur hit with the Boyes hit, I thought the Boyes play was actually worse. It looks like Boyes actually jumps into the Leaf player, while MacArthur simply bumped Abdelkader as he was skating slowly by. Either way, a hit to the head is a hit to the head and as someone who suffered a serious sports related brain injury as a child, I feel the league is going the right way. Eventually, players will reassess the way they hit each other and will be more aware of where the other players heads are in relation to the hit they put on that player.

by Jockeyshifter on Oct 1, 2011 4:10 PM EDT reply actions  

RE:Headshots,the NHL

Will the media (mms + blogs) ever stop talking about this and start talking hockey again?

The sport has become so politicized, every event turns into a referendum.

by Johnny Bower's Pokecheck on Oct 1, 2011 4:42 PM EDT reply actions  

this was a play

that happened on the ice, and I’m pretty sure losing the 2nd top scorer on the team for 2 regular season games due to suspension is worthy of discussion.

The fact that it’s a point of debate is WHY it’s under discussion. If nobody differed in their opinions on this it wouldn’t be worth mentioning…

People who dislike discussion or debate make strange internet trolls… IMO.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 1, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

hey now, didn’t you know that talking about things that happen during hockey games or affect the game is played have nothing to do with hockey?

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do the kids say in these situations again?

Is it “lol”?

Yes, I think it’s “lol”.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

In fact, I’d like all further comments on the blog to be limited to “what was the score?”

RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter

by Bower Power on Oct 1, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

do you even check the box score?

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’ll be glad to know that there are a number of alternative “hockey” discussions for you to enjoy in the FTB.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 1, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, forget that whole player safety thing, lets just put swords on the end of their sticks!

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s a hot button issue. Once there is sufficient progress towards eliminating headshots, it will cease to become so discussed.

Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 1, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

frankly the No touch icing is a hotter button issue, but there is a general consensus on what must be done, either that or people who are for touch icing are absent / keeping their mouths shut in fear of being shouted down
so we go to the simmering button topic of head shots

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t understand why the no touch icing or hybrid icing is taking so long to implement. People get mangled so much worse on those than any other hits. And like you said the consensus has pretty much been reached.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

it really is mind boggling, I can’t say I have ever heard one argument to keep it that has been even semi-intelligent.
To me it sounds like there are just a bunch of stubborn old men who are taking a stand against changing “their” game and this is their beach head

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You probably haven’t heard a semi-intelligent argument in defense of touch icing because there isn’t one.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 1, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny how that works :)

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

but at least it makes the game more exciting and prevents it from becoming figure skating!

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s not forget how aesthetically pleasing it is!

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

We don’t take kindly to no-touch icing in these parts.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol nice signature.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was due for a new one

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya gotta love it when people do the work for you too

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 1, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

also

the new avatar fits well with it

by Nigel Cadbury on Oct 1, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

ive been spending the last week reading the whole calvin and hobbes series over again, sometimes things just come together

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I need to grab all mine the next time I’m home. Had the whole collections or maybe missing just the last book.

by Nigel Cadbury on Oct 1, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

so just asking..

Are your maladjusted antisocial tendencies the product or your berserk substandard pituitary gland?

by Nigel Cadbury on Oct 1, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

what?

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

there he is folks Moe! let’s give him a big hand!

by Nigel Cadbury on Oct 1, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh look I’ve gone cross-eyed.

Chicken Little is dead. Long Live Positive Pete.
Lebda-free since July 3.

by nhlcheapshot on Oct 1, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

tastes a bit nutty.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

And even the ultimate stubborn old man (cherry) is all for it so really mind boggling is the only way to describe it.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

honestly, cherry is consistently ahead of the curve about a lot of issues in hockey

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

and here I thought he was just a racist xenophobic old crank who just yelled about visors all the time

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

he’s got some funky suits too I’ve heard
and a dog

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

except goonery, foreign players, french Canadians and Ovechkin’s celebrations. Don Cherry knows his hockey a hell of a lot better than I do. But I’m just saying he is a stubborn guy and he’s old so he fits the description. But he’s been pushing for an icing change for what seems like over a decade.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

he’s not perfect but I just think it’s unfair to lump him in with morons like millbury or something

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one deserves to be lumped with Milbury except Glenn Healy.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

BCWW

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 1, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

How dare we talk about hockey. Bad hockey blog.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I miss when we talked more about baseball

Chicken Little is dead. Long Live Positive Pete.
Lebda-free since July 3.

by nhlcheapshot on Oct 1, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Flagged for baseball :)

1/1/11: Saw the beginning of the Optimus Reim era. And it was glorious!!!1
Oh...and Phil Kessel says YAAAAAAYYYY!!!1

by LeafBoy on Oct 1, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Strictly looking at the Boyes hit as a precedent I think MacArthur got too much. Boyes actually had to reach with his elbow to make contact whereas MacArthur used his shoulder and the hit was lined up directly. To me elbowing the head is worse but maybe because they were skating faster it was more of a split second decision?

Either way with it being both their 1st offence I would have given him 2 games 1 preseason/1 regular season

by scott tubbesing on Oct 1, 2011 4:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Do teams submit hits they want shanny to review or does shanny and his group pick whatever hit they want to review?

by jeffgm on Oct 1, 2011 4:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Good question. My guess is all of the above.
Maybe the refs file reports at the end of the game. Probably every game is being watched by the NHL and Shanahan, so they see it live like the rest of usl

by The Muppet on Oct 1, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Under Rule 28.1, supplementary discipline is reviewable at the discretion of the investigating authority. So, at his discretion, Shanahan can target any incident for review and then investigate it to reach a conclusion on whether he thinks supplementary discipline is warranted.

However, under that same rule, a Club or the League can request a review of an incident and the Commissioner is required to follow up with an investigation.

So, basically, The Muppet is right that the answer is “all of the above”.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

going to be a record set for amount of suspensions this year..Hopefully the players get the point and stop doing stuff like this though.

by Tats16 on Oct 1, 2011 5:06 PM EDT reply actions  

I don’t see anything wrong with what MacArthur did. It barely even classifies as a hit. If all “stuff like this” gets taken out of hockey, there will be no physical contact whatsoever because even slight contact could potentially lead to a suspension. I agree that there should be a crackdown on headshots, but I don’t think that what MacArthur did should qualify as a headshot. I don’t believe he targeted the head, he clearly didn’t try to injure Abdelkader, and it wasn’t a dangerous hit.

History. Leafs. Drawing. In no particular order!
My Portfolio

by CanadianMaple09 on Oct 1, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a good argument. And I say this with absolutely no bias, having not outlined an identical argument previously in this comments thread.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree. Mac specifically was an overreaction. Boyes hit Colbourne square on the head but to me at least there was something awkward about the hit as Boyes turned to look at the puck just as he finished his hit. So I don’t think that’s totally preventable from his end. Anyway you’re never going to be able to completely remove head hits and still allow hitting. There’s always going to be incidental/unintentional shots to the head. I just don’t want the players to become squeamish about hitting.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fully agree it’s barely a hit. A “brush-by” as Wilson put it. No argument here. But that brush by resulted in a head being clipped. Concussions have been administered with pretty innocent looking contact in the past. The brain doesn’t need much to get rocked.

by The Muppet on Oct 1, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If individuals are that worried about getting concussions, they shouldn’t be playing a high speed, high contact sport like hockey in the first place. No matter how safely you try to play the game there is still risk involved. That isn’t to say you shouldn’t try to minimize unnecessary risks, but I just think that “brush-by’s” that accidentally make contact with the head shouldn’t be punished, because there is going to be a certain amount of physical contact like that in any game. I’ve seen far worse intentional contact in my men’s league and intramural “no-hit” games that were seen by the ref and not penalized. That’s not to say that the reffing is at the NHL level or that they go by the same standards, the point is that physical contact is a part of hockey, there is inherent risk in that, and punishing minor instances where there was no intent to injure, no injury occurred, and it wasn’t a dangerous hit, with 3 game suspensions, isn’t helping anything really.

History. Leafs. Drawing. In no particular order!
My Portfolio

by CanadianMaple09 on Oct 1, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

it seems to me like Shanny set a precedent early, and now he’s following through. i don’t think he fully thought through what the consequences would be.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 1, 2011 5:29 PM EDT reply actions  

should have consulted a neurologist first, methinks.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’m not saying what he’s doing is wrong. i’m just not sure he fully thought it through; he’ll probably increase the number of suspensions by 1000% percent at this rate. i don’t think based on what he said this off season that that was his plan. but like i said, the precedent is set.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 1, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

it will be very interesting the first time a super star gets his pee pee slapped by one of these

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 1, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

DGB might have to re-do his suspension chart if he actually changes how the league suspends superstars and/or Pronger.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually that was my weird way of agreeing with you. I understand he wants to make everyone understand he’s serious. But maybe he went a little too far and now he has to continue.

October 25, 1966. Thank you Lord Kelvin

by Chuck Diesel on Oct 1, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep. Come playoffs this will be difficult if a team is losing a top d or key forward to suspensions.

Also was thinking the Mac could have been a warning as abdel wasn’t hurt and embellished with the dive. Its only two games but if I’m mac – so no big deal – but next game I think Mac is going to be reserved about hitting and probably avoiding checking.

I guess we are going to see more chasing the puck? And more grabbing to slow players rather than risking a suspension with a hit.

by jeffgm on Oct 1, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shanahan (i.e., me) laid a hit to the head of the league as the result of a decision made during the preseason. I had the chance to pull up, and to make the head not the principle point of contact. It may have been accidental, but it was still a reckless play.

And that is why I am suspending myself 8 games, for reckless endangerment of the league, and for failing to consider the consequences of my actions.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 1, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I think that’s fair. He is going to have to probably toss out a long of 8-15 game suspensions soon. GMs will HOWL at that point.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Oct 1, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually all this headshot talk and questioning calls is a lot like the hooking/obstruction calls we were all treated to the first year back (months really) after the lock out year. Both players and officials will need time to adjust to the new rule. IMO this is a very important thing that they are trying to do and as a fan I just hope they get it right.

Like I said above, I think the hit/suspension is valid in the sense to educate players that if a opposing player is in a vulnerable position that the hitting player should avoid that contact not necessarily about the severity of the hit or intent. To me, it just looks like Mac had a choice and chose to finish his check hit Abdelkader instead of letting off.

Its a fine line but it needs to be drawn somewhere.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Oct 1, 2011 6:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. And, essentially, those of us who disagree with this decision are saying Shanny drew the line wrong.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see this will be an ongoing unfortunate reoccurring debate, lets hope it will only last for the first month as we all become adjusted to the new rules. All I would want is one thing, consistency.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Oct 1, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t see what’s unfortunate about it. This is a timely and important debate – and one that needs to happen for the good of the players and the game we love.

We should welcome dialogue.

by G.g.B on Oct 1, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see, however not the point I was making.

"There's been four different Cup winners the last four years, and I got one of them (Anaheim) and it was a fighting team. We're playing it that way regardless." - B. Burke, Toronto Maple Leafs GM

by BlueBuds on Oct 1, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMO he wasn’t going for the head, but either way I understand the league needing to crackdown. If he had hit Abdelkader on the button he could have been seriously injured.

by Goosemonster on Oct 1, 2011 6:31 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m just upset because now I won’t see the MGK line when I go to the Leafs game next Saturday… But as for the suspension, while it seems to be a bit much, I’m not all that much against it. I definitely would have been much happier with 1 regular season game, or remainder of the preseason though.

Never stop believing. Go Leafs Go.

by MLS on Oct 1, 2011 9:17 PM EDT reply actions  

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