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Variation On A Theme

So far this season it looks like more of the same from Jonas Gustavsson.  As we head into a match up versus the Philadelphia Flyers, many Leaf fans are are shaking their heads at the decision to bring Gustavsson back for another kick at the can as an NHL level netminder.  I can understand this perception and it's obvious that to some extent Leaf fans are extremely frustrated with their perceptions that they have been saddled with substandard goaltending for half a decade - particularly prior to the arrival of James Reimer.

This is where I begin to enter a point of debate - how LONG of a term is required to assess a goalie's quality?  Jonas Gustavsson has played 67 games through the first 2+ seasons of his career, seeing the ice for a total of 3683 minutes thus far.  Generally speaking once you've seen 3000 minutes of play you'd THINK you'd be able to determine just how good a player is. Read on for some reasoning as to why you can't.

Star-divide

This isn't a posting that is designed to convince you that Jonas Gustavsson is a top end NHL prospect, or a goalie that is likely to ever be an NHL starter.  I honestly don't think he will ever be more than an NHL backup at this point, although through no obvious fault of his own he has been thrust into the starter's role in his first 2 seasons, and for all intents and purposes been thrown to the wolves by relatively shoddy defensive outfits.

I am personally of the opinion that NHL defenders do not significantly impact on goaltender save percentages.  There are arguments to be made from both sides, but I personally feel that defenses may allow more shots, and generally individual defenders may surrender more from bad locations, but overall much of this comes out in the wash.  Over the long term, a goalie's quality should theoretically be discernible also.

 

Below is a list of goalies who played over 3000 minutes through their first 3 career NHL seasons since the 2000-01 seasons, along with their SV% over that span:

Player GP TOI SA SV% Record
Jonas Gustavsson 67   3683   1827   .897   23-29-11
Jussi Markkanen 69 3602 1662 .916 23-26-8
Dan Ellis 80 4254 2138 .913 35-29-7
Martin Gerber   114 6394 3052 .913 55-37-13
Pascal Leclaire 59 3238 1782 .905 17-32-5
Milan Hnilicka 96 5246 2907 .902 25-52-12
Johan Hedberg 116 6832 3301 .901 46-57-12
Marc-Andre Fleury 138 7868 3708 .901 57-57-17
Cam Ward 157 8836 4268 .897 81-54-13
Antero Niittymaki 101 5813 2910 .896 35-44-15
Craig Anderson 56 3029 1484 .892 12-29-6

Now - think about the fact that every goalie on that list played over 55 games and over 3000 minutes over 3 years, so most of us would think it fair to assume we "know" what we're dealing with. Any goaltender with a save percentage under .900 three years running probably isn't an NHL goalie, and won't become one... at least that's the logic that seems to be operating with the ditch Gustavsson crusaders these days.  

With that same group of goalies listed above in mind, here is how their numbers look over the next 3 seasons of their NHL careers:

Player GP TOI SA SV% Record
Jussi Markkanen 59 3008 1330 .882 20-21-7
Dan Ellis 76 4183 1980 .904 37-23-8
Martin Gerber   112 6341 3202 .907 55-41-8
Pascal Leclaire 100 5405 2525 .902 40-37-9
Milan Hnilicka 23 1177 647 .892 4-14-1
Johan Hedberg 61 3234 1431 .899 29-14-5
Marc-Andre Fleury 164 9296 4531 .911 94-72-20
Cam Ward 189 10897 5685 .919 94-72-20
Antero Niittymaki 109 5886 3074 .909 48-35-13
Craig Anderson 53 2788 1628 .928 24-14-7

Does anyone see a lot of connections between the top list and the bottom list? Well Markkanen had the best first 3 years of any of the goalies in the first group, and then promptly followed that up with the worst stretch of goal keeping on his way out of the NHL.  Anderson had the WORST first 3 years of any of the goalies in the first group, and then followed that up with the BEST subsequent 3 season SV%.

Cam Ward and Marc-Andre Fleury are both stars for their respective teams and are unlikely to relinquish their hold on that job in the near future.  Antero Niittymaki is not by any means an All-Star, but he obviously has improved his numbers. Dan Ellis, Martin Gerber, and Pascal Leclaire all saw their numbers drop.  Milan Hnilicka didn't last another full season before leaving the NHL.

Johan Hedberg is an oddity in that he went from 8 seasons of middling work to a recent stretch of stellar keeping over the past 3 years.  He didn't really hit his stride until he was 36 years of age, but he held an NHL job as a back up for a long stretch by being a quality teammate and working hard without rocking the boat.

So what's my point? My point is, even after 3 seasons of hockey, and 3000 minutes of ice time, you really can't be 100% certain how good a goalie is.  We don't have nearly enough data to be completely certain that Jonas Gustavsson will NEVER become a decent keeper in the NHL. That being said, there's also no real way to assess if he's about to improve drastically either.  It's just not a determination we can easily make at this point.

I too am frustrated when he plays poorly for the Leafs, but the idea that there is no chance he'll ever improve is belied by the list above.  Obviously this is a possibility, and the people who work on these things (i.e. Allaire) think there's a chance he succeeds.

Worst case for Leaf fans is this season is a total flop from Gustavsson's perspective and we cut him loose at season end.  If he does turn things around and earns another pay day then the happier we'll all be, but let's wait a bit before we decide to set upon a goalie that currently sports a 1-1 record this season... despite some troubles in the net.

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Comments

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Good analysis Steve. I had a feeling one of these was coming.

by TheCeej on Oct 24, 2011 11:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Gabe had looked at this a bit

A little over a year ago, and suggested that (at least with even-strength save percentage) a goaltender needs to face around 3,000 shots before you can predict their future performance with any confidence. That roughly comes out to 3 full seasons of data.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Oct 24, 2011 11:45 AM EDT reply actions  

How many .897 goaltenders get the chance to see 3,000 shots? Can’t keep throwing games down the drain to finally say “ok, well he hit 3,000 shots and he let a ton of them in, let’s bring in some other guy to play 120 NHL games”.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

but the point is not so much that the small sample performance isn’t valid but that your expectations for the future have to have a wider range.

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by Bettman's Nightmare on Oct 24, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Gustavsson was at say .900 maybe, he’s currently at .897 and trending downwards. Watching him play is like watching a small child being beaten up by a gang.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was at the game on Saturday and there was a woman next to me who would cover her eyes every time Montreal took a shot on Gus.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Oct 24, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was fergus wasn’t it?

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

hehe was thinking the same thing

by Nigel Cadbury on Oct 24, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gabe also looked at goaltenders SV% at the beginning of their careers

Here is what he wrote in the comment section:

13 goalies isn’t enough of a sample size to draw any conclusions about league of origin. The main point here is that you need 2000+ shots to make a decision about a goalie…And that to get a 2000-shot tryout, you’re best off hitting a performance high in your first few hundred shots…

As well, since bad goalies tend to be weeded out since teams will not continue playing them due to poor performance (As Chemmy stated), 2000 shots may be a better indicator of future performance. Right now, Gustavsson is only 173 shots away from 2000, and he currently holds a .897 SV%. Unless he goes on a miracle run, I don’t expect that to improve that much.

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

by Frag on Oct 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or 1.5 seasons of starter level hockey. Its basically 90-100 GP at 30-33 shots/GP

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
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by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ages in first year in NHL

Gustavsson – 25 (below average backup)
Markkanen – 26 (terrible, out of NHL in 5 seasons)
Ellis – 23 (a sub-par backup)
Gerber – 28 (an average backup)
Leclaire – 21 (god awful)
Hnilicka – 26 (terrible, out of NHL in 5 seasons)
Hedberg – 27 (a well below average backup until hitting 36 somehow)
Fleury – 19 (a below average starter)
Ward – 21 (an average starter)
Nittymaki
Anderson -

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Oct 24, 2011 11:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Problem here is

Markkanen was a .916 goalie three years in (or the same point we’re examining Gustavsson at) so you probably wouldn’t have called him horrid at this point.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

and how the hell

is a .919 goalie an “average” starter?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

When you see those swings, from first 3 seasons to next 3 seasons, re-confirms for me that the stats ALONE aren’t enough to comprehensively say, “Gus isn’t going to make it.”

But. He does just seem to have some wobbles to his game. Inconsistencies. Things he needs to bring under control.

And he may not be able to do that in the NHL. I’d hoped the off-season would give him a chance. If not, then it’s the AHL, and soon, for the Monster. And if that means we lose him, then… we lose him. Because this is a bubble team, after too many losing seasons, with a coach (and a GM) who need to win.

It’d be great if he looked tight tonight, like things could be brought together, in the same game.

Anyhoo. Rec’d for the post, Steve.

R.I.P. The playoff hopes of Montreal Canadiens fans for 2011-12.

by not norm ullman on Oct 24, 2011 11:58 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m not sure this is the smoking gun you think it is. Cam Ward was what, 21 when he first joined the Hurricanes? He showed steady progression year after year.

Your data says to me that we have a small chance Gustavsson could be average. This isn’t reassuring.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Thomas didn't get

into the NHL until he was in his 30’s… I’m not sure age and trajectories work the same for goalies as they do for skaters.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the age thing is the killer. Most of the guys who broke out were much younger.

"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift

by The '67 Sound on Oct 24, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

but 25 isn’t at the upper end entirely. Anderson was 24 during his 3rd NHL season (he actually took 4 years to get those games listed above).

Niklas Backstrom entered the NHL at 28, Thomas entered at 28, Hedberg entered at 27…

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kiprusoff

was a backup with San Jose from 24 through 26 prior to his trade to Calgary. He only played in 47 games for the Sharks and had seasons of .902, .915, and .879 prior to being nominated for a Vezina the next year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are quite a high

number of guys that don’t figure shit out until their late 20’s.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kiprusoff

wasn’t on my list because he didn’t start 55 games through 3 years, but in his first 3 NHL seasons, he had a .897 SV%… then he went on to be regular starter that played 70+ games with regularity.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are a couple outliers who look good, but they are exceptions that prove the rule.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

again

I’m not creating a new rule. I don’t think a few exceptions means Gus becomes a Vezina candidate, I’m not that crazy.

I’m just saying those exceptions make it GLARINGLY obvious that after 3000 (or far more shots) you can’t be 100% certain your goaltending prospect won’t turn it around.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing’s 100% certain. No one is saying they definitively know Gustavsson is bad.

Basing your future plans on “maybe the best case scenario happens because it’s not impossible” is absurd.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Vezina’d

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Oct 24, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Basing your future plans on "maybe the best case scenario happens because it’s not impossible" is absurd.

The JFJ special?

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I hope YouTube comes down to film this.

by birky on Oct 24, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

heh. that was his MO.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

But but but

The Leafs almost made the playoffs last year with basically this team so we can take it for granted that making it to that level is a guarantee!

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

nope

nobody ever said that. I’m just saying that assuming we need a solid back up is strange considering how many teams make the playoffs with crap backups.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

for instance

the 2008-09 Stanley Cup Champ Penguins who got 0.898 goaltending from Dany Sabourin, or the 2008-09 Flames who had Curtis McElhinney produce .885 goaltending. Or the 2006-07 Rangers who had Kevin Weekes produce .879 goaltending,

Obviously it’s not a certainty, and most bad backups play on bad teams. But it’s not a guarantee either way.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what? It is stull very useful to have.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

what plan?

I’m not saying make him the starter because he’s going to become a future hall of famer.

I’m saying he likely plays out the string this year, and I hope he improves. If he doesn’t he’s gone.

I’m not expecting a long playoff run either way.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just saying those exceptions make it GLARINGLY obvious that after 3000 (or far more shots) you can’t be 100% certain your goaltending prospect won’t turn it around.

I agree with this but I question its importance. You can’t be 100% certain of anything, but I think you can be confident enough that its not worth playing him.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re using the exceptions in an attempt to prove your point. Now how about the multitude of crappy goalies who came in, played poorly, and we subsequently let go?

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Oct 24, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm saying

you have no idea whether he’ll be good or not. The exceptions aren’t making a new rule, they’re disproving your rule.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re right, I cannot say with 100% certainty that Gustavsson won’t turn it around and become the next Tim Thomas. But what I am saying is that all of the data present, and the history of other goalies point to him continuing to suck.

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Oct 24, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

if you ignore the data points being mentioned above, then ALL of the data present indicates he’ll continue to suck.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

obviously

SOME of the data.. i.e. the cases mentioned… indicate we have no real fucking idea whether he’ll turn it around or not.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

People on the verge of financial ruin win the lottery sometimes. It doesn’t mean it happens often enough to use them as an example of why being jobless with the mortgage payment due isn’t something to worry about.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

huge difference

in sample sizes there.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hold on let me get a list of ten lottery winners and show you that per my comps it works 100% of the time.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

All/most whatever. 20% chance he’s a decent backup. 80% chance he’s gone before the season ends.

Not sure why you insist on writing a post and backing up a 20% likelihood but whatever.

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by SkinnyFish on Oct 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

20% chance with cherry picked comps.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're using the word

cherry picked… over and over again… as if I’m trying to argue that he’s GOING to turn it around.

I’m not saying that… I’ve never said that.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I included

data of goalies that got WORSE than their initial numbers, how would that improve things for Gus?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your list of comps is not comprehensive. Saying “some of these guys turned it around” might not be impressive if as we add to the list of comps we see that for every guy who turned it around 10 are playing in the Finnish 2nd league.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

there

actually aren’t that many goalies who have played 3000 minutes within their first 3 seasons who aren’t in the good category early.

There were only 50 since 2000. Names on your laundry list of bad goalies that continued to be bad would include Fredrick Norrena, Sebastian Caron, Hannu Toivonen, Brian Boucher (not really horrible for the next 3 years), Joey MacDonald, Rick DiPietro, Curtis Sanford, Jeff Deslauriers (isn’t into his 2nd 3 year stint yet), Ondrej Pavelec, Peter Budaj, Pasi Nurminen, Brent Johnson, Ty Conklin, Steve Mason, Ryan Miller, Brian Elliot, Devan Dubnyk, Jonathan Quick, Tim Thomas, Mike Smith… beyond that their SV% early on are over .910.

I’d say Ryan Miller, Tim Thomas, Jonathan Quick would all improve my argument not make it worse.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

How exactly

Did you get this list? This can’t be all of the players that had 3000+ minutes in their first 3 nhl seasons can it?

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was pretty clear

that if he doesn’t improve he’s gone and that’s that.

I just don’t think it’s safe to assume he’s never going to develop. You guys do. Good for you.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

FTFY
if you ignore With the data points being mentioned above, then ALL most of the data present indicates he’ll continue to suck.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m saying you have no idea whether he’ll be good or not.

We have a reasonably strong idea. We can’t be 100% sure, but I would argue its not worth the risk to roll him out in the unlikely hope he’ll turn into a better than back up goaltender.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

why is your idea

reasonably strong? I’d like to know WHAT in his game leads you to this conclusion.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you suggesting that the first 3000 minutes of a goalies play has no predictive value on the rest of his career?

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Picking all of the goalies who were terrible and suddenly found their game while ignoring the mountain of flamed out goaltending prospects is disingenous at best.

It’s interesting to me that your comps don’t include Mikael Tellqvist. Swedish goalie who joined the Leafs as a 23 year old. His first 67 games had him at an .895 to Gustavsson’s .897.

Where’s he?

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is the problem I have. Far too many goalies never get to 67 games for the same reasons we’re shaky on Gus. Is 67 games an idea sample size? Maybe not. But its a hell of a lot more than the vast majority of goaltending prospects ever get.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying

those guys don’t exist… you’re ignoring my point apparently. I was pretty explicit about it above. I don’t think he’ll turn into a superstar, I said I think he’s likely a career back up.

I just don’t think we know enough yet to assume he’ll never improve. You have yet to show me why you know more in Gustavsson’s case than anyone did in the other cases mentioned above. Do that and you can tell me why I’m wrong.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is absolutely vital to your point: that your comps are a representative sample and so we can say “oh well ok those guys got better”.

If your comps are cherry picked exceptions to the rule you don’t have an argument, and you left off a guy who PLAYED FOR THE LEAFS with identical numbers to Gustavsson.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

they're

exceptions to your “rule” that 65ish games and 1600 shots are enough to decide a goalie is shit.

It isn’t a good rule… obviously.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re not particularly good exceptions. Your cherry picked point is that in the past some guys had bad starts and then turned out to be ok-ish and also Tim Thomas exists.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

hm

then why did I include guys that start well and end badly? doesn’t align with your view on my point… which isn’t my point at all but keep going.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

my point is

you don’t know how good he is… any more than anyone knew how good the guys on that list were after (in many cases) similar or even MORE games.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can keep

saying “data point to” and my point is that the data at this point is still too varied to be certain.

You’e really certain… obviously and intensely so.

Why?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

your point seems to be ‘no one can really predict the future’.

I had something really clever to say here. But I forgot.

by daoust on Oct 24, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

pretty much.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

as was pointed out above it’d probably be a better representation if you included all goalies of the last X years and that played some really low minimum number of games so you can see all the shitty goalies that flame out after 20 games because they suck. I’d argue that Gus has been given a chance to play a lot more games than he should have because our goaltending has been such a disaster.

I had something really clever to say here. But I forgot.

by daoust on Oct 24, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d argue that Gus has been given a chance to play a lot more games than he should have because our goaltending has been such a disaster.

I think this has a lot to do with everything, and Its still a problem. We’ve added some goaltending prospects who seem to have upside, but we know next to nothing about how they’ll perform at the NHL level. We know Gus hasn’t performed particularly well at the NHL level. Perhaps there’s a sense that at this point that it’d be better to go with one of the “unknowns” than what we’ve seen in Gus.

Essentially, there isn’t much to suggest with any certainty that a guy like Scrivens or even Rynnas wouldn’t be a better option at this point than Gus. If Gus needs time to find his game and develop, so be it – I can accept that. But can we afford to allow him to do that as the #2 guy on the organizational depth chart without seeing whether or not one of the other guys might be better suited for that role? I’m not convinced we can, or should.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Scrivens or Rynnas will be the cure to our goaltending woes. We likely need to look to a free agent or a trade at this point.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, and at this point am not at all thrilled that it wasn’t addressed over the summer. It’d be a vastly superior option to going with any one of our NHL untested goaltenders.

Given the current status of our goaltending though, I’m just not convinced that it wouldn’t be worth a change of some sort, using what we’ve got to work with. I’m not entirely convinced that it would either (in fact I’m pretty skeptical of change in this way as well), but I have very little faith in Gus at this point and Reimer can’t play all 82 games, especially if he’s being run into by dwarfs every so often.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

not at all thrilled that it wasn’t addressed over the summer.

Just like the summer before that, and the summer before that, and the summer before that……..

The First Certified Grabbo Lover

by SkinnyFish on Oct 24, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's ridiculous to say

we need to increase the sample to include guys who were given even LESS of a chance to determine their true ability in comparison to random luck.

Arguing we know more by including guys about whom we know even less is sort of weird to me.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I too am frustrated when he plays poorly for the Leafs, but the idea that there is no chance he’ll ever improve is belied by the list above. Obviously this is a possibility, and the people who work on these things (i.e. Allaire) think there’s a chance he succeeds.

…let’s wait a bit before we decide to set upon a goalie that currently sports a 1-1 record this season… despite some troubles in the net.

This is a surprisingly optimistic assessment from you, Steve. We all know what the record is. But I agree it’s still a little early to send him out to pasture. His next few starts will go along way to settling that question, starting to night.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 12:21 PM EDT reply actions  

The support form Allaire has got to be a major factor here. The guy has picked and developed some fantastic goalies.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

To me, this is the only thing worth being optimistic about re: Gustavsson.

by the_walrus on Oct 24, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I’m not even sure if we really know Allaire to be high on Gus.

by the_walrus on Oct 24, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s true, although one might suspect it was part of the reason he was so heavily recruited by Toronto. Would Burke take a risk on a guy that Allaire had no interest in?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

the interest that Alllaire HAD in Gus is far less relevant at this point than the interest that he has in him right now.

Glory glory Man United, AND the other MU, AAAAnd the Leafs. Experiencing cheering whiplash for decades..

by Wan Ihite on Oct 24, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

do you guys

really think that if Allaire was down on Gus that they’d have signed him to the contract they did?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Quick Question about Allaire

We know of his success stories, but how many goalies has he worked with that never worked out. Does he really have a better record grooming goalies than anyone else, or did he just groom a couple very successful goalies which is the only thing people remember?

Bam Bam.- digga digga damm

by Eterrible on Oct 24, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if this isn’t a reason to be a bit pessimistic about Gustavsson instead – wasn’t he more of a stand-up goalie in Sweden? Maybe some of his issues are coming from learning to play the Allaire butterfly style. It’s hard enough to be successful breaking into the NHL without changing your style at the same time.

by polystyrene_man on Oct 24, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I seem to recall a report last year (Mirtle IIRC) about how Gus has had to “become” an Allaire style goalie from the “reaction style” he had been in Sweden and that it was this transition which was causing him to play so poorly. If that’s true, what was it about this kid that Allaire saw (if that is even how it went)? I don’t get it.

by Kessel'sOversizedSuit on Oct 24, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

This pretty much sums up my view on it…either way, it was a good post.

by Goosemonster on Oct 24, 2011 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

My reasons for giving Gus the benefit of the doubt would be: how many goaltenders in that list A) had lost their mother just as they were starting their professional career and B) had to deal with some pretty serious heart issues.

by Bakedpot8o on Oct 24, 2011 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

I would add: C) Had to make an immediate transition from European to NA leagues without AHL time (though admittedly that was his choice)

by Goosemonster on Oct 24, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe we should have drafted John Gibson after all.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

From what I see

The two goalies who made big swings in the positive direction in your sample were top goalie prospects who were very young.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
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by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Craig Anderson?

Miika Kiprusoff? Tim Thomas? I could expand the list and did above in response to Chemmy.

I just think the whole thing is a disaster in “expert” analysis. People are far too certain with a limited data set.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It still seems to me

That the most likely situation, is that the data we have is representative. There are a few examples that goes against it but most follow.

Even if the first 3000 minutes are irrelevant I just don’t think we can risk playing him

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by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a big difference

between saying “Gustavsson has had a shitty season and a half and needs to turn it around if we’re going to give him more of a chance” and saying “Gus is complete garbage who isn’t worth the effort we’ve spent on him” … maybe I’m the only one that sees it that way, I just don’t think it makes sense to completely lose all hope.

If someone gave you a 20% chance to live and you were on your death bed, You’d take it. We dont’ have a lot of cap space, or far better options.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

No we don’t, and I think some of the frustration stems from the fact that this hasn’t been addressed. To me its not that I’m certain Gus is shit. It’s that I’m not certain there aren’t better options even within the organization, and some frustration that this has been allowed to persist into another season.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think

going with Scrivens or Rynnas would have been a HUGE mistake. Neither one has even a full AHL season under their belt yet.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Scrivens

and Rynnas are both still under 45 AHL GP.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t entirely disagree – potentially it would be a total disaster. I’m just not entirely certain it would be much worse.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t say the second for him, but I am prepared to say it may be time to give up. We have enough cap space to bring up either of Rynnas/Scrivens. We could see what it costs to trade for a proven backup. Maybe Clemenson when he is healthy. Or maybe Nittymaki when he is healthy. We could also consider signing a guy (though as I predicted basically no one is left).

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

seriously

this is like beating my head against a wall… why are you guys so certain he won’t improve after 3000 minutes of hockey and 1600 shots.

Gabe’s work has shown you don’t really have a clear picture until around 3000 shots, so we’re slightly over halfway there.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not willing to risk it. How many goalies make it to 3000 shots when they have a S% below 0.900 by 1700?

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

between saying "Gustavsson has had a shitty season and a half and needs to turn it around if we’re going to give him more of a chance" and saying "Gus is complete garbage who isn’t worth the effort we’ve spent on him" … maybe I’m the only one that sees it that way, I just don’t think it makes sense to completely lose all hope.

You’re definitely not the only one. I’ve bene arguing this for about 12 months.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

For me, its just that its not worth the risk to roll him out if a better option is available. I don’t know about UFA’s (I don’t see anyone) or trades. But I think its time to try Rynnas/Scrivens.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok

this is another problem for me… far too many people are ready to drop Rynnas and Scrivens in there.

LESS than 1 Full AHL season and they’re the solution? WHY?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is part of the reason Gustavsson

has value to us… he’s a stop gap until the kids are ready. And believe me, they AREN’T consistent yet… at all.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to agree with you here, Steve. All we need is Gus to be OK, preferably with sheltered starts.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

For sure

But if he can’t be, its irresponsible to not look at other options.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

it's been

2 freaking games… he’s had good stretches before, and it’s not impossible that he will again.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I assumed we were talking a few weeks in the future. I don’t mean we need to make a move today.

On other hand deals do take a while to happen, so Burke should already be kicking tires at least.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

he's probably

been kicking tires since last season… how many good backups actually changed teams this year?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

and OK

for Gus is .900 level goaltending. I don’t expect our back up to post a .912 league average SV%.

I actually discussed this in my league preview in the MSP… .900 would be good.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

a lot of that depends on team D and PK performance. .900 could turn into .912 with a better PK.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope this team is more disciplined when Gus is in net. I mean I hope they’re disciplined all the time, but I’m really concerned when Gus is in net for the PK

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 24, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree

The median S% of the goalies who played 10-35 NHL GP last year was 0.9115. That should be our goal for our backup.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

again, the median S% of the teams was a lot better than ours. that could help a lot.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

For sure. And that should eb our goal. Not 0.900.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

.900 is dogshit, not “good” or “acceptable”.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

We can try them and if they are not ready they can go back down. Many good NHL goalies have a couple seasons with 2-6 NHL GP before they become an NHL regular.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

perhaps

but I don’t see how this is likely to improve the Leafs results.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

usually

those 2-6 NHL GP don’t work out spectacularly… and they’re injury fill ins only. It’s not because the backup has played poorly.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think

it’s sort of silly how far people are going with all this get rid of Gustavsson rhetoric when Reimer’s likely to miss what? 1 or 2 games? he’ll start the next 5-10 games after he gets back, so I’m not sure why this is a serious problem.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because that just delays a problem. The team is not good enough to make the playoffs if we lose most of the games our back up plays. They need to be winnable.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

because we almost made the playoffs last year and that was with Reimer only playing half the year.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you willing to gamble on that again? I think our backup goaltender being pretty damn terrible is worrying and should be rectfied.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

the team

has much deeper problems that are evident game to game than the play of Jonas Gustavsson.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

This I wholeheartedly agree with.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

As long as Reimer is healthy

But with a guy who has once cracked 55 GP in professional hockey I don’t want to depend on that.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

who are you, and what have you done with Steve Burtch?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is vintage Steve Burtch. Find a trend in the general consensus, argue against it.

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 24, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

except it’s the same argument I was making most of last season, which he seemed to be vehemently opposed to.

in any case, i don’t mind.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha, he was in the minority back then

He’s a hipster statistician

elephant shell
never question our ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - yardly

by sportsfan2 on Oct 24, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

to be fair, my argument was much more “our team sucks and therefore RW is terrible”, which I think is more of what Burtch took issue with.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

I don’t really think RW is all to blame, any more than I think Gustavsson is all to blame.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

well

this is fair, except then I was basing the argument on 3 months of Gustavsson sucking. I never said he was irrecoverable as an asset in net. I said then I didn’t think he’d drastically improve, and I still don’t. But I don’t think we have a better option.

Most of the time I was against him was before Reimer was promoted… in Late November when he was our main starting option.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

2 months

not 3 months.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats because if they play really well they are likely to stay up past hte 2-6 GP. If they don’t do well they go back down for some conditioning. If the Gus continues to play so poorly than it needs to be considered.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve bene arguing this for about 12 months.

In that span Gustavsson put up an .890 in 1300 minutes in the NHL. Seems like you may consider re-evaluating your position.

Also I really doubt you were the only person banging the Gustavsson drum: his rookie season we all loved him for not being Toskala and thought he got some shitty breaks but could improve. Consensus 12 months ago wasn’t “Cut Gustavsson”.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

for the first 700 minutes he was putting up > .915 numbers.

it was the second half where he hit the skids.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes his first 700 minutes were nice. Given how awful his second 1100 were I’d peg them as some sort of weird outlier.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m talking about the first 700 minutes of last season. that is, 700/1300. that is, more than half.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, I work with numbers and thought he played 1800 last season, not 1300.

Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

So yeah, more than half at .915 and a finish at .890 is puzzling.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

it was bad. but a large stretch of that is when Phaneuf was out and Phil couldn’t score. The whole team looked like trash.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, hopefully the last five periods were an outlier but…

Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

to be totally fair he has probably only been horrendous in 3 of those periods, maybe 3 and a half

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 24, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

/notsureifserious

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say

cut him… I said he wasn’t anything more than a future NHL backup, and I had no visions of him starting for us.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s what I’ve been saying too, glad to know there’s others that feel that some have rushed to a “certain” judgement.

by Goosemonster on Oct 24, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure your judgement is objective and clearly laid out.

Pension Plan Puppets*
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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here are the 50 goalies with 3000 minutes played in their first 3 NHL seasons since 2000

I wouldn’t want any of hte goalies who were below 0.910 and above 25, besides Thomas.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 1:56 PM EDT reply actions  

you wouldn't

be adding them now… you’d be getting them going into their 4th season.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point I am making is that most of them didn’t pan out. None of the goalies who were 25 or older by their 3rd season and had a cumulative S% below 0.910 (let alone Gus’ below 0.900) EXCEPT FOR THOMAS turned into anything I want on my team.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh ok

so most = all?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I said all except for Thomas. When I double checked it was all except for Thomas and Nittymaki. That is what I was referring to

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

you wouldn't prefer

Niittymaki, Hedberg, Conklin, Anderson, Kiprusoff

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nittymaki-I did include
Hedberg-I’ll give you
Conklin-I’ll give you
Anderson- Under 25
Kipper-Wasn’t in that list.

So I would rather have Nittymaki and Thomas. And am iffy on Hedberg and Conklin….

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

craig 874 anderson? ew

Resident Internet Tough Guy

by JaredFromLondon on Oct 24, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd have taken

Craig Anderson and his .928 hockey over the next 3 years. I wouldn’t want him now obviously.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

He wasn’t above 25.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point I am making is that all of the goalies who had below a 0.910 who turned into anything I would want were young.

The only exception is Thomas (who is a very odd situation) and I guess Nittymaki.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cam Ward?

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

sorry. neglecting the age thing.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

No worries man. My point was that all of the goalies there I don’t mind/like (Fleury/Ward/Anderson/etc) were still quite young.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here is a list of goalies

Who since 2000 had a S% at or below 0.900 with at least 1700 shots in their first 5 seasons.

The only ones who are any good are Nittymaki and Conklin and they are far from special… For the most part if a goalie can’t be at least okay by this point its just not worth the risk to continue.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:11 PM EDT reply actions  

interesting that 3 of the goalies on that list are Leafs prospects.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know eh?

We have had a terrible time with tending prospects. I just think if a goalie can’t be at least okay by that point you need to cut your losses.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like Dubnyk.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obligatory rec for Artus Irbe hate

by samspade on Oct 24, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

yet another scary list:

Since 94/95, the Leafs have only had 8 seasons with goaltending above .910. 6 of them came from Ed Belfour and Curtis Joseph. The other two came from Reimer and GIggy with limited starts.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ughhhhhhhhhhh

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

mmmmhmmmm.

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL Glenn Healy

I had something really clever to say here. But I forgot.

by daoust on Oct 24, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Raycroft won 37 games with a .894. That’s crazy

Living and dying with the Blue and White, season to season, game to game, shift to shift.

by ThickSkinnedAlive on Oct 24, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thoughts?

A good question is: If they post win games, is S% negligable?

"The Passion Continues..."

by WendelMadeMe on Oct 24, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. Goaltenders are not measured by Ws.

06-07 Leafs were 6th in GF. With an actual goaltender, they were a phenomenal team. They were 25th in GA.

(side note: hellooooo, 2011-2012 Columbus Bluejackets.)

RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter

by Bower Power on Oct 24, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Instead of being phenomenal, no playoffs. Just pain. And suffering.

by Self Destructive Zones on Oct 24, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

"The Passion Continues..."

by WendelMadeMe on Oct 24, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was a Cup favorite team with a league average goaltender.

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by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Gustavsson is still capable of succeeding – and in theory, he is – I would like it to be with another team. I don’t want the Leafs taking on the risk that comes with Gustavsson being the project that he seems to be, given his current play at the NHL level.

RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter

by Bower Power on Oct 24, 2011 2:30 PM EDT reply actions  

even if we agree

that he’s better served with a change of scenery – who do we replace him with that’s superior?

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not even necessarily saying that his play improves with a change of scenery. I just think that, even though some comparables show that it’s physically possible for his play to improve to an NHL-backup level, I just don’t think I want to see my team roll the dice on that happening by putting him in net.

At this point, he’s here for the year. The same team that left Toskala in until the trade deadline isn’t going to cut a guy playing 1 out of every 5 games. I just don’t want him brought back. If Scrivens/Rynnas isn’t ready by next year? I’d sign anyone from Nabokov to Huet, with the lone exception of Andrew Raycroft. Because fuck Andrew Raycroft.

RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter

by Bower Power on Oct 24, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

My main problem

with all of this “prefer him on another team” thing is – how is this going to happen. And why assume Scrivens or Rynnas are ready? I don’t really think they are.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Gus is providing us with VERY BAD goaltending. If he can’t improve it substantially and soon, our GM is failing at not providing a better back up. Other options NEED to be explored.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

according to that list of Leafs goalies, he actually’s doing pretty well comparatively…

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

mmmmhmmmm

Move along. Nothing to see here...

by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Oct 24, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

“This meat pie tastes like dog shit”
“Better then that last meat Pie, tasted like horse shit”

What it means to be a Leafs fan.

No Good Komi Scum

by SPERO on Oct 24, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

right

but don’t go the Rynnas / Scrivens route… it’s not worth it. Also you have no idea what the going rate is on “solutions” right now.

Look at NHL rosters and waiver wire potential options and see if you see any names that you think would be drastically improved.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is so terrible about giving them a game or two? If they do well great, roll them (and Owuya gets to go to the AHL). If not, they are not yet ready and we send them back down…

Confused why people think Aulie is better than Gunnarson. Please ask me to explain
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!

by BCapp on Oct 24, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

How we found Optimus. Could you imagine if Gus even put up .900 goal tending they may have never called him up.

No Good Komi Scum

by SPERO on Oct 24, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Optimus"

as you call him had been playing AHL hockey for 2 and a half seasons.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

- Sir Winston Churchill

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.

by Steve Burtch on Oct 24, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Using every goalie with more than five games played I added up all the saves and shots to get a league wide save percentage. I then took the standard deviation of all reported save percentages.

Using those tools we can compare how a goalie’s performance compared to league average in terms of standard deviations.

Here’s a bad goalie: Andre Racicot. In 92-93 he played 26GP with an .881 SV%. This was below the league average that year of 0.885. In fact Racicot was a full quarter of a standard deviation under average.

Jonas Gustavsson?

In 09-10 he was -0.75, or “-3 Racicots”
In 10-11 he was -1.80 or “-7 Racicots”.

Discuss.

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* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 5:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Out of interest, could you compare that to other goaltenders that the Leafs had at the time in 10-11 Giguere and 09-10 Toskala?

RIP Former-and-forever Leaf Wade Belak
Me on Twitter

by Bower Power on Oct 24, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

10-11 Giguere -1 STDEV = -4 Racicots
09-10 Toskala -2.51 STDEV = -10 Racicots

Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.

by Chemmy on Oct 24, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

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