Attacking Ken Campbell's Anti-Leafs Nonsense
by Justin.88 on Nov 14, 2011 8:58 PM EST
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Ken Campbell is wrong. Very, very wrong. In his latest gem of an article he proclaims that the Leafs have never had a "true superstar" on the team, that Sundin doesn't belong in the HHOF in his first year of eligibility, and the HHOF is biased towards Toronto players.
Ugh.
Campbell argues that Toronto bias runs deep throughout the HHOF. He cites the fact that 53 Leafs are in the hall (26 of which spent the bulk of their careers with Toronto), despite the fact that Toronto has never had a true superstar on their team. The latter claim depends on your definition of superstar, but in Campbell's terms he states a "true superstar" is someone who was one of the top 5 players in the game at any given time. Things is, there are Toronto players that fit Campbell's definition, namely King Clancy and Frank Mahovlich. Both players were at the height of their careers in Toronto, both players were 1st team all-stars with Toronto multiple times, and both players were "true superstars." In fact, King Clancy retired as the highest scoring defenseman in NHL history. While they haven't had many, the claim that the Leafs have never had a true superstar is completely false.
Ken seems to be missing the point that you don't have to be a true superstar to be in the HHOF. Does he realize the majority of players inducted weren't his definition of true superstars? That's just not the way the HHOF works, and you don't have to be a so-called "true superstar" to be inducted. The "true superstar" argument Campbell maintains is really just completely idiotic. He also uses lack of individual awards as an argument that there shouldn't be many Leafs in the HHOF. While Leafs players haven't won many individual awards over the years, his claim is still baseless. By his logic, to name a few, Borje Salming, Daryl Sittler, Denis Savard, Mike Modano, and Brendan Shanahan all don't belong in the HHOF. It's even more hilarious considering in the same article he states Shanahan is a lock for the HHOF in his 1st year of eligibility. It further accentuates everything you need to know about Ken Campbell's flawed logic.
He goes on to state Mats Sundin doesn't belong in the HHOF in his 1st year of eligibility, wouldn't even be in the conversation if he didn't play in Toronto, and will only get in because of "Toronto bias" in the HHOF. He couldn't be more wrong, erroneous, and out of line. Any hockey fan knows that by reading Sundin's list of accomplishments, he belongs in the HHOF.
-26th overall in points in NHL history
-T21st overall in goals in NHL history
-Career PPG player
-One of only 27 players in NHL history to have 500+ goals and 1300+ points
-Tied for the lead in overtime goals in NHL history
-All-time leading scorer (goals and points) for Swedish players in the National Hockey League
-All-time leading scorer (goals and points) for the Toronto Maple Leafs, an original 6 franchise
-First European to be drafted first overall
-Three time Swedish Olympic captain
To suggest that Sundin wouldn't even be in the discussion if he played in Los Angeles or Nashville or San Jose is absurd. Furthermore, the indication of Toronto bias belittles and compromises the integrity of the HHOF. It's disgusting, really. There's only 4 people on the selection committee with Toronto ties: Pat Quinn, Jim Gregory, Mike Gartner, and Lanny Mcdonald. Meanwhile, he whines about there not being enough Canadiens in the HHOF. Yet, there are more people on the selection committee with Montreal ties (5) than Toronto ties. If the HHOF was so biased towards the Leafs, why wasn't Pat Burns inducted in the past 2 years when the whole hockey world thought otherwise? The accusation of Toronto bias, especially considering Ken failed to actually mention Leafs players who don't belong in the HHOF, is fallacious and false.
Ken Campbell is a silly Habs fan with clouded views and a penchant for writing anti-Leafs drivel. He once denounced Teeder Kennedy as overrated and basically proclaimed "Habs > Leafs" in an OBITUARY for Teeder after the legend passed away. It doesn't surprise me that Campbell would write such a skewed article.
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More egregious is that he claims Doug Gimlour spent the bulk of his career with the Leafs because he played the most games with them. He played 353 of his 1474 career games with the Leafs for a total of just over 26%
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You could argue that was the bulk if that percentage were higher than the percentage he spent with any other individual team, though. I’d check, but I can’t find any mention of this Gimlour person on HockeyDB.
His #1 Hit single rock da habsadeus was a disco anthem!
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Just to check – when he says 53 Leafs are in the Hall, he means to say that these players played for the Leafs at some point? Or are they inducted as Toronto players? Do the Rangers count Gretzky as one of their hall of famers.?
But yeah, just reads like a bitter Leaf hater with “don’t they realize 1967?!”
So, apparently I can now be followed.. but no stalking. @alsonamedphil
by Learn2Leaf on Nov 14, 2011 10:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
NHL players don’t go into the Hall associated with one tema (like they do in MLB), so it counts everyone.
So what’s really happening here is that the Leafs happen to have recently had a bunch of HOFers who were better known for other teams but happened to play a few years with Toronto. Off the top of mny head, that would include Leetch, Francis, Belfour, Nieuwendyk, Fuhr, Anderson, Gartner, Murphy… probably a few more.
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Nov 15, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
And we know the awful Murphy got in only because of his short stint of greatness with the Leafs
Follow me on twitter @CoolJ90
Booo!
/notserious
This space for rant...
by fair_n_hite_451 on Nov 15, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks. Good enough for me to shoot his theory full of holes. The simplicity of saying “HEY! Look at all these Leafs in the Hall!” when you are going to include those names is pretty weak.
Interestingly, I looked up Leafs in the Hall via the Wiki and noticed that since 1980, the players who were known (primarily) for their play with the Leafs inducted are Gilmour and Sittler (who is the player who played for the Leafs in the 80s to make the hall – fitting). Sounds about right to me.
So, apparently I can now be followed.. but no stalking. @alsonamedphil
Yeah, he says that there are all these Leafs in the Hall who shouldn’t be there, but doesn’t name them. I’d actually like to see that list, since I don’t really see any from the last 40 years or so.
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Nov 15, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Don't know who he meant, but here's the list from Wiki:
In alphabetical order, every hall of fame inductee who at one time played for the Leafs (indicated by the years):
* Jack Adams, C, 1922–26, inducted 1959
* Glenn Anderson, RW/LW, 1991–94, inducted 2008
* Syl Apps, C, 1936–48, inducted 1961
* George Armstrong, C, 1950–71, inducted 1975
* Ace Bailey, LW, 1926–33, inducted 1978
* Andy Bathgate, C, 1963–65, inducted 1978
* Ed Belfour, G, 2002-06, inducted 2011
* Max Bentley, C, 1947–53, inducted 1966
* Leo Boivin, D, 1951–55, inducted 1986
* Johnny Bower, G, 1958–70, inducted 1976
* Turk Broda, G, 1936–52, inducted 1967
* Harry Cameron, D, 1917–23, inducted 1962
* Gerry Cheevers, G, 1961–62, inducted 1985
* King Clancy, D, 1930–36, inducted 1958
* Sprague Cleghorn, D, 1920–21, inducted 1958
* Charlie Conacher, RW, 1929–37, inducted 1961
* Rusty Crawford, LW, 1917–19, inducted 1962
* Hap Day, D, 1924–37, inducted 1961
* Gordie Drillon, LW, 1937–42, inducted 1975
* Dick Duff, LW, 1954–64, inducted 2006
* Babe Dye, RW, 1920–26, 1930, inducted 1970
* Fernie Flaman, D, 1950–54, inducted 1990
* Ron Francis, C, 2003–04, inducted 2007
* Grant Fuhr, G, 1991–93, inducted 2003
* Mike Gartner, RW, 1994–96, inducted 2001
* Eddie Gerard, D, 1921–22, inducted 1945
* Doug Gilmour, C, 1991–97, 2003, inducted 2011
* George Hainsworth, G, 1933–37, inducted 1961
* Hap Holmes, G, 1917–19, inducted 1972
* Red Horner, D, 1928–40, inducted 1965
* Tim Horton, D, 1952–70, inducted 1977
* Syd Howe, LW, 1931–32, inducted 1965
* Busher Jackson, LW, 1929–39, inducted 1971
* Red Kelly, D, 1960–67, inducted 1969
* Ted Kennedy, C, 1943–57, inducted 1966
* Dave Keon, C, 1960–75, inducted 1986
* Brian Leetch, D, 2004, inducted 2009
* Harry Lumley, G, 1952–56, inducted 1980
* Frank Mahovlich, LW, 1957–68, inducted 1981
* Lanny McDonald, RW, 1973–79, inducted 1992
* Dickie Moore, LW, 1964–65, inducted 1974
* Larry Murphy, D, 1995–97, inducted 2004
* Joe Nieuwendyk, C, 2003–04, inducted 2011
* Frank Nighbor, C, 1929–30, inducted 1947
* Reg Noble, LW, 1919–24, inducted 1962
* Bert Olmstead, RW, 1958–62, inducted 1985
* Bernie Parent, G, 1970–72, inducted 1984
* Pierre Pilote, D, 1968–69, inducted 1975
* Jacques Plante, G, 1970–73, inducted 1978
* Babe Pratt, D, 1942–46, inducted 1966
* Joe Primeau, C, 1927–36, inducted 1963
* Marcel Pronovost, D, 1965–70, inducted 1978
* Bob Pulford, LW, 1956–70, inducted 1991
* Borje Salming, D, 1973–89, inducted 1996
* Terry Sawchuk, G, 1964–67, inducted 1971
* Sweeney Schriner, LW, 1939–46, inducted 1962
* Darryl Sittler, C, 1970–82, inducted 1989
* Allan Stanley, D, 1958–68, inducted 1981
* Norm Ullman, C, 1968–75, inducted 1982
* Harry Watson, LW, 1946–55, inducted 1994
Thoughts?
So, apparently I can now be followed.. but no stalking. @alsonamedphil
In the past 20 years, I’d argue that Fern Flaman and Harry Watson were the only two weak selections from the Leafs.
People complained that Ciccarelli was undeserving, so they’d probably be able to come up with a bigger list.
by Spezzal Teams Playa on Nov 15, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
pretty much, and not a dino ciccarelli among them!
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 15, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Dino maybe for the off ice stuff but man he was a hell of a player.
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
And Pulford.
R.I.P. Habs playoff hopes for 2011-12.
And also, FCK LUCIC.
Did I mention the FLYRES ARE ASS?
by not norm ullman on Nov 16, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
wow a DGB sighting. Awesome!
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Olympic Gold Medal
You forgot to mention that little thing you wear around your neck… what do they call it??? An Olympic Gold Medal? Something…
Anyway, Sundin is a tight choice for Hall of Fame induction, but he’s in for sure. Its a hellova class.
THN will have always slanted their content towards slightly… err… controversial write-ups. Toronto fans will always be their bread and butter. See Simmons and Cox for details.
A few edits you might want to make
by Spezzal Teams Playa on Nov 15, 2011 1:11 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Corrections done
Thanks for the corrections.
As of last season, Sundin was the longest serving captain ever (tied with Alfie) but I forgot to take into account the current season.
I actually agree with Campbell that Sundin shouldn’t be a slamdunk first ballot HOFer, and you can even make the argument that he shouldn’t get in at all. It wouldn’t be a great argument, but you could make it.
That said, the idea that Sundin shouldn’t be first-ballot but that Brendan Shanahan is somehow an absolute lock is just bizarre.
Down Goes Brown - Unapologetically nostalgic for the past. Brutally realistic about the present. Grudgingly optimistic about the future.
by Down Goes Brown on Nov 15, 2011 11:49 AM EST reply actions
As long as these guys are consistent and treat guys like Iginla and Alfredsson the same, then I think the argument can be made… but I very much doubt they will make that argument.
When it comes to Toronto, words change. You’re not a contender unless you’re a Cup favourite. You’re not a superstar unless you’re a generational talent, inner-circle superstar.
I think getting into “slam-dunk first ballot” really complicates what should be a pretty cut-and-dried issue. Top 30 in points; top 25 in goals; international success (it isn’t the NHL hall of fame, after all); and maybe most important, status as a pioneer, the first European to go first overall in the draft and first to hit 1000 points (IIRC).
Clearly he belongs in the Hall, and I’m not sure I care whether he gets in first ballot.
Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
I don’t get that. Sundin captained a team to a gold medal. Had a higher GPG and PPG, and has the most points by a European… The only thing Shannahan has on him is his work with the league (not as a player) and 3 cups, but that was playing with Federov, Lidstrom, Lemiuex, et al.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
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When did Shanny play with Lemieux (and win the cup)?
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Nov 15, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
I meant to write Yzerman.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
I guess I could see how you confused them; they’re both Canadian and played for one team their entire careers!??!?
Actually, I thought you wanted to refer to the gold medal he won in 2002.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Nov 16, 2011 8:17 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. Shanahan should not be a slam-dunk and neither should Sundin.
I’d say both have at a 66-75% chance of making it next year, but that’s far below slam-dunk percentages. But if Gilmour had to wait this long, there is a chance that both of these players wait at least a year or two.
There’s Sakic, maybe Cassie Campbell, probably Pat Burns. I could see them maybe stopping there. Probably not, but there’s a chance.
by Spezzal Teams Playa on Nov 15, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Bure should be in by now.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
so should Pat Burns
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 15, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
if Sakic isn’t a first ballot HOF’er then no one is. Even after his career he’s still underrated it seems. I’m a huge Leafs homer and all but come on. I’ll probably get flak for this but I don’t see how Belfour gets in first try and Sakic doesn’t.
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
isn’t he eligible already?
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
next year is his first year of eligability
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E"
by Matt_Roberts on Nov 16, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Salming and Sittler could fit the bill as a top 5 player at certain points in their career.
In 1977-78, Sittler was third in league scoring.
In 76-77, Salming was 3rd in the NHL in assists and finished 2nd in Norris trophy votes (he finished 2nd again in 1980).
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The latter claim depends on your definition of superstar, but in Campbell’s terms he states a “true superstar” is someone who was one of the top 5 players in the game at any given time.
So people like Sundin and Gilmour then?
The First Certified Grabbo Lover
Was Sundin ever top 5? As hard as it is to compare skaters to goalies he played most of his career with 2 of Brodeur, Hasek and Roy in the league so those 2 would be ahead of him. Add in guys like Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr, Niedermeyer, Leetch, and Forsberg and I wonder if he was ever top 5.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
However, Sundin did lead his team in scoring/points for like what, 10 years (I know there wasn’t much competition, but hey).
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Nov 15, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
So what you’re saying is that Sundin was far too consistent over his 20 years of dominance. If he was streakier, and lumped a bunch of his points into one year while taking another one off, say, we’d think he was a better player.
Yeah, there were some real stars around over the same period, and yet Mats Sundin was #4 in points over the duration of his career.
It kills me how consistency gets punished when it comes time to telling stories.
Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
Agree that Mats is generally underrated within and without Leafs Nation, but the notion of peak v. career when it comes to evaluating players isn’t simply a narrative thing. A higher peak increases the chances of a championship. I don’t have a problem with either Mats’ peak or longevity, but I think it is fair to point out that his peak was never really all that high. He was Top 10 in points only twice as a Leaf.
Phil Esposito only scored 9 more NHL goals over his career than Mike Gartner… but I’d much rather have Espo’s goal profile.
well from that list alone 4 guys aren’t considered superstars by captain dipshit.
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
He was 4th in NHL scoring in 2001-02. I’m not sure if that’s the only season he was, but he definitely was then.
TWEET AT ME BRO
Leaf fan for life! (No, really. They gave me a no-trade clause when I was born.)
by FiftyMissionCap on Nov 16, 2011 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
The fact is Sundin gets in the hall of fame alone for the reason he is the best Swedish forward ever. And by chance, what Habs players would Kenny like in the HOF anyways?? All their greats are already in and I can’t think of anyone else that deserves to go in.
Andre Racicot
But in all seriousness probably Recchi and maybe Dejardins?
and of course the Poise King is a lock.
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
The entire point of this piece was to combat the stupidity of that type of article.
Leaf, the universe and everything.
Now in year 44 of the 42-year saga.
I do find it interesting, though. In most markets, there’s a campaign to get the local player elected to a Hall of Fame. In Toronto, worthy players get belittled.
There are several comments on that article to the effect that Gary Roberts is a more deserving choice than Mats for the Hall.
Gawd dang I hate sports fans.
Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
I like Roberts, but always felt he was just short. On the 2002-04 Leafs, we already have Leetch, Francis, Nieuwendyk, Belfour… Sundin is a slam-dunk, and I think Mogilny will one day get in. If Roberts, then I think you gotta induct Mogilny. Then, you got All-Star guys like Kaberle, McCabe, Nolan. Man, what a team.
It’s amazing how many great players came through Toronto in those years. Then we got JFJ.and things went all crazy.
My rambling tweets
Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing - Vince Lombardi
Give us Mogilny in his prime with Sundin in 2004 and look out NHL
Sometimes it seems this cycle never ends, we slide from top to bottom then we turn and climb again.
by Chris Stoikoff on Nov 15, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Only problem with that team was that
Leetch, Francis, Nieuwendykwere pretty much at the tale end of their careers.
by gettingcozywithsarkozy on Nov 15, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
Roberts is ~.75 points per game for his career. The comparison is just completely ridiculous. The difference is that with Roberts you have all sorts of Don Cherry-friendly narratives—persevered through horrible injuries, hard worker, rough and tumble, good ol’ Canadian boy (which is the most important one).
Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
Agree that I don’t considered Roberts a HoFer and that Sundin v. Roberts is a mismatch. It is interesting that Campbell cited him as competition next year (and CuJo — another guy I feel is maybe borderline) on the ballot. If both Roberts and Cujo eventually get in, maybe there is something to be said for the HHOF Leafs bias! (Then again, the bulk of Roberts value is his pre-neck injury career with Calgary and Cujo’s work with St. Louis and Edmonton).
Dave Keon
Calder Trophy, Lady Byng, Conn Smythe Trophy, 4 cups, long standing short handed goal record for one season, less than 140 PIMs in almost 1,600 professional games (despite being his team’s premier shut down center in addiiton to being a key goal scorer). He wasn’t one-dimensionally flashy, but that man was a God of hockey.
Great Leaf? Or Greatest ever?
I’m on the fence, but he’s in the discussion, the way Mario is in the league-wide discussion.
by Spezzal Teams Playa on Nov 15, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
For me, he was the greatest, the player I would have chosen to emulate, the hero of my team growing up. Stats suck. Heros are forever.
Ballard – curse his name – was merciless in deriding him and then demanding extortionate compensation, making his return to the NHL virtually impossible.
I hate that Ballard pissed off Keon so much that we can’t even honour his number. He’s unreachable from a Leafs perspective. Probably Ballard’s greatest sin off all his numerous sins.
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
The thing that annoyed me the most was that he said 53 was a lot without comparing it to any other franchise. I have no idea if that is a lot. How many do the other original six teams have?
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Maple_Leafs
Unless I’m counting wrong, Wiki lists 60 former Leafs players to have been inducted into the HHOF, plus another 15 builders. Anyone know what the discrepancy is? Is it one of those “Arenas and St. Pat’s don’t count” stuff?
Yeah, seven guys never played for Conn Smythe.
by Spezzal Teams Playa on Nov 15, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
how do the Leafs inductee numbers compare to other original 6 teams? I mean if a team is around longer than there is a pretty good chance you are going to have more players/builders that passed through your franchise in the HHoF
Resident Internet Tough Guy
by JaredFromLondon on Nov 15, 2011 2:11 PM EST reply actions
That was my question too.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
According to Wiki
Habs have 50… That must be what pissed him off.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
46 Rangers. Don’t have time to hceck the other 3.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
46 Rangers in the Hall, and they’ve won four Cups. Yeah, sure, it’s Toronto that’s overrepresented.
Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
Draper has as many cups as the Blackhawks and Rangers.
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
Henri Richard has MORE than every team put together except Detroit, Toronto, Montreal, Boston, NYR, Philly, NJD and Edmonton.
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
and Islanders
I used to love the Leafs... I still do... but I used to, too.
by Chuck Diesel on Nov 15, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
doesnt sundin have an NHL record for most GWG?
Eat your waffles, kid.
by HomeMadeWaffles on Nov 15, 2011 2:40 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Sundin is on this page 7 times
26th in points (most by a Swede, 4th most by a European).
21st in goals (tied with Nieuwendyk (sp?))
7th in GWG
1st (4 way tie) for OT goals (this is a little misleading as OT is new) (also Jagr and Elias are tied with him and are still playing)
33rd in assists
17th in shots on goal
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
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