Shot to the Chart. But Who's to Blame? (You Give Goalies a Bad Name)
It's no secret that the Leafs have a bad penalty kill. In fact, it's beyond bad. Before tonight's game the Leafs sit dead last at a 69.4% kill rate. What's worse is that this isn't a new problem. Keith Acton and Tim Hunter were fired because of the horrendous special teams over the past few years. Specifically, the Leafs have finished 28th, 30th, and 30th in PK since Ron Wilson arrived. Scott Gordon and Greg Gronin were supposed to solve this problem (because presumably RW had nothing to do with the PK????). But sadly, here we are...
Previously, I've tried to make the case that coaching is the problem (as opposed to goalies), but with the poor PK persisting despite the change to the coaching staff (aside from the head honcho), it starts appearing less likely that coaching is to blame. So, when Chemmy posted about our special teams, Burtch made this argument:
I think a lot of that is probably our goaltending… Reimer’s got an .808 SH SV%, and Gustavsson has a .783 SH SV%. That’s not very good (53rd and 56th in the NHL respectively – out of ALL goalies 3SA).
Indeed, those numbers aren't very good. But as with all great correlations, we have a cause-and-effect problem: Is bad goaltending the cause of the crummy PK, or is the abysmal PK causing the goalies' SV% to go down?
While I'm not sure whether Gabe or Tom Awad or others have looked at this before, I decided to run my own analysis. After the jump: simple stats and charts.
The argument that others have made is that good goalies make for good PKs, whereas bad goalies make for bad PKs. But this assumption is always made based on the SV% during the PK. This doesn't remove the cause-and-effect problem. But this is a simple enough problem to resolve, right? We can just look at EV SV% instead of SH SV%, and compare it to the PK%. Good goalies (with high EV%) should make for better PKs. Right?

Above is a chart of the EV SV% for the 47 goalies who played more than 20 games for a single team in 2010-2011, plotted against that team's PK%. While you can see that there is a slight positive trend, the R-squared is .06. In other words, a goalie's EV SV% can account for about 6% of the variance in PK performance (at least, for last season any way).
I've highlighted a few individuals to highlight this point. Both Tim Thomas and Rick DiPietro played for teams with relatively good PKs. One of them was barely an NHL goalie. The other had the best SV% in modern history. One would think that if PK performance were related to how good a goalie is, EV SV% should have a stronger relationship with PK performance.
Accounting for Baseline Performance
OK, so whether a goalie is good at even strength has very little bearing on whether a team has a good PK or not. This doesn't support the argument that good goalies make for better PKs. This seems, in fact, to reverse the cause-effect relationship: bad PKs lead to low SH SV%. But in order to assess this relationship properly, I think it's important to account for baseline SV%. In other words, it's not enough just to look at SH SV% and compare it with a team's PK performance, since some goalies are naturally better than others; the real measure of how a goalie's performance is affected by the PK should be in their CHANGE in SV% (the difference between EV SV% and SH SV%):
The chart above displays this change in SV% (SH - EV) relative to the team PK% for each goalie. What you can see from this chart is that there's a fairly strong relationship between how a team does on the PK, and how much a goalie's SV% suffers: The crappier the PK, the bigger the hit a goalie's SV% will take while short-handed.
**(Author's note: This relationship is even stronger if I remove a few of the goalies with less than 25 games played to about 30% variance explained or r > 5)
Importantly, because this correlation accounts for baseline performance, these effects are independent of how good or bad a goalie is. For example, even though Reimer's baseline EV SV% was high, the crappy Leafs' PK lead to a big drop off in his SH SV%, almost exactly the same amount as for Giguere. Similarly, a mediocre goalie like Mike Smith has a smaller drop-off on a team with a strong PK.
To further bring this point home, the chart below plots each goalie's EV SV% against his drop in SV% on the PK. You can think about the change in SV% as an index of how well the PK is performing; SH SV% should almost always be lower on the PK because the chances will be better: if there's a big drop in SV%, it's because the other team is getting better chances; if there's no change in SV%, the PK is almost performing as though there are 5 skaters on the ice. What this chart shows is that there is essentially zero relationship between the change in SV% and his baseline (EV) SV%. Some guys (like Mike Smith) play behind a solid PK, resulting in little dropoff (or in fact a small increase) in SV%. In contrast, others (like James Reimer) play behind really porous PKs, leading to an increase in quality chances, and a bigger decrease in SV%. How much it decreases, however, is unrelated to how good the goalie is to begin with.

Together, I think these three graphs point to the conclusion that bad PKs lead to low SV%, not the other way around. If that's true, then there should be some reliability to these effects. Goalies that play for the same team should be similarly affected by the lousy PK, since they're playing behind the same system. If, however, the goalie instead affects the PK, there should be little correlation between how two goalies on the same team perform on the PK.
The chart above plots the correlation in the change in SV% (SH SV% - EV SV%) for those 15 teams that had two goalies play more than 22 games last season (plus the Leafs who had three)**. What you can see from this graph is that how much a goalie's SV% drops on the PK is (weakly) correlated with the dropoff of the other goalie on the same team. Thus, it would appear the performance of the team in front of the goalie is the big factor in determining how much a goalie's SH SV% will suffer on the PK.
**(Authors note: I removed two data points that had goalies with 20 and 22 GP, as the small sample size for these goalies made things all weird. Ideally I'll have time to update this using multiple seasons).
Conclusions
Overall, I think these relationships show that goalies are unlikely to be the major factor that separates a good PK from a bad PK. Teams with better goalies only have marginally better PKs. Instead, the PK at the team level seems to largely determine how good (or bad) a goalie is going to do while short handed: those goalies who play behind strong defensive systems will suffer a lot less than those who play behind porous D. While this may seem trivial, I think it's important to keep in mind when we try to start assigning blame for the Leafs' abysmal PK (*cough* Ron Wilson *cough*). Thus, a few points I think we need to keep in mind:
- There's no substitue for good goaltending. Having a goalie who stops 93% of shots even strength is always going to be a better choice on the PK than a goalie who stops 87% of shots.
- BUT, SV% does not seem to have a causal affect on PK%. Good goalies don't automatically make better PKs. Conversely, bad goalies don't make for bad PKs.
- Changes in SV% (SH - SV%) are a good proxy for how a team is doing on the PK.
- Better teams help their goalies keep their SH SV% up. (If the Leafs SH SV% looks like crap, there's probably been an abundance of good PP chances for the opposition).
- Fixing the Leafs PK will require more than just putting a better goalie in net. Somehow, somebody has to help this team improve. Or, as Chemmy pointed out, it could make the different between glory and failure.
PensionPlanPuppets.com is a fan community that allows members to post their own thoughts and opinions on the Toronto Maple Leafs and hockey in general. These views and thoughts may not be shared by the editor of PensionPlanPuppets.com.
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Ok all of this makes sense
but I think the point coming out of this is, a bad goalie will make a crappy PK look far worse than a good goalie.
In other words, part of the reason our PK has looked so shit recently is because we have Gus in net and not Reimer.
I think that’s relevant.
Also, the drop in ES SV% to SH SV% for Reimer was MUCH larger than the drop for Gus last year but this year it’s quite similar.
This year Reimer goes from .943 to .808 (.135 drop). Gus goes from .909 to .783 (.126 drop).
Last year Reimer went from .933 to .855 (.078 drop). Gus went from .910 to .784 (.126 drop).
The variation for Reimer worries me a bit… but yeah… who knows. The consistency for Gus is kinda creepy really.
Suffice it to say, Gus suffers a lot on the PK because he’s not as good a goalie as Reimer. a guy that’s a .910 goalie at ES shouldn’t really be in the NHL. I think Scrivens should be our backup if he can continue to do what he did tonight vs. Columbus.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
and
the more I looked at it earlier, the more I shifted to the D men and F and not the goalie.
I looked at all 15 PP goals against, and Gustavsson and Reimer could only really be blamed on 4 of them so far this year, Reimer on 1, Gus on 3. There were also some rebound issues, but overall I think missed coverages could be blamed for like 6 or so?
That’s more on the D and F than the Goalie for sure.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Nov 3, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s more on the D and F than the Goalie for sure.
Yep, agreed. Skaters and coaches are both accountable for PK performance. Which of those is the problem for us is up for debate.
And FYI, I only used your comment because it articulated the question, which others have raised at other points.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 3, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Leafs in first-Burtch and VRN agreeing? It’s opposite day!
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Nov 4, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure I agree that a bad goalie makes a crappy PK look worse. On the scoresheet, yes. But the temptation is to chalk up a bad PK to crappy goaltending. This is why the baseline comparison is so important in my mind.
The bigger drop so far for Reimer this year seems to suggest that our PK is even worse than it was last year (especially early in the season). This doesn’t fill me with a ton of confidence, and confirms what I’ve seen with my eyes…
As for whether Gus should be in the NHL, I still think he’s got value. Maybe for a team like Detroit (at least the old Detroit) where the scoring chances are kept low, but where he can make a few key saves when needed.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 3, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
well it’s two main effects, right. The Goalie’s overall quality is important, and the four skaters reducing the quality of chances against is also important. If your goalie starts from a higher baseline level of skill, that can compensate to some extent for players giving him harder shots to cope with… but that doesn’t change the fact that all goalies will do better if they have a defence around them that limits the dangerous chances.
right. I guess I’m just taking exception to Burtch saying that “a bad goalie will make a bad PK look worse”. If there’s a 10% drop in SV% for both good and bad goalies, then in my mind the PK looks just as bad in both cases.
but as you said, the addition of the bad goalie is going to mean more goals are going to go in, which will make the PK% even lower.
Maybe, in that sense, change in sV% is actually a better metric of PK performance than PK% alone?
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn’t shots against per PK minute correlate highly with PK% – if you could show that teams allow fewer PK shots have better PKs, it would help out your argument that PK issues are more than goaltender problems.
presumably, yes…i should look this up…
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by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
JLikens looked at a lot of aspects of this last year; I tried to write a readable summary here, with links to the original articles.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
good point
the Canucks PP gets shut down easily when we can’t get any shots on net.
Nucks Misconduct writer, inter-blogging etiquette queen.
@NM_missy
the other problem
is the link between shot type and location and SH%… allowing fewer high quality shots will screw up the percentages also.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I think
the other problem with all of this is the samples are so damn small. I think looking at multiple seasons worth of numbers makes sense… and you could compare top goalies to crap goalies on the same teams to see what comes out of it.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
yeah, i’m a bachelor this weekend so I may very well do this. but once I’ve made up my mind about an issue no longer find it interesting, so I don’t want to do the work anymore (personal anecdote alert: my publication record has suffered because of this).
hopefully I’ll get around to it, but I’d be just as happy have someone else do it and show me that I was wrong….
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's what confuses me
we’re saying a bad PK lowers a goalie’s SV%, and a good one raises it? so where do we draw the line at what the goalie is contributing?
I mean what we’re arguing here is that the PK itself only affects a 9% range from good to bad (+0.01, to -0.08 on the chart).
So if the goalie represents the .900% or so with a + or – of 0.05% either way… isn’t the outcome still LARGELY dependent on goaltending?
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Right. Demonstrating that the team has an impact on PK Sv% (via reproducible differences between EV and PK for starter and backup) is not the same as demonstrating that the team has the majority impact on PK Sv%.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
that’s true.
but it does without saying that if a goalie has a shitty SV% at EV, he’s going to have a shitty SV% SH, doesn’t it?
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
*goes
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, my objection is to this quote:
Teams with better goalies only have marginally better PKs. Instead, the PK at the team level seems to largely determine how good (or bad) a goalie is going to do while short handed: those goalies who play behind strong defensive systems will suffer a lot less than those who play behind porous D.
The way you’ve defined the strength of the defensive system means the skaters get the credit for all of the luck-related variance in PK Sv% — the goalie is credited for his EV Sv% and the skaters are credited for the difference between PK Sv% and EV Sv%, even though most of this gap (85% by your own correlation) comes from variance or other factors.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
That’s fair. I just like to write a fair bit of narrative into these things because 1) it makes it more interesting (like a newspaper with a heavy bias) and 2) it makes the discussion more interesting (like the letters to the editor of a paper with a lot of bias).
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
i think it’s a matter of how we define ‘success’. what I think I’m arguing here, is we can’t put a .900 EV goalie in the net and expect the PK to be running at the same efficiency as if we had a .930 EV goalie in net.
BUT, the bad performance on the PK can’t be attributed to the shoddy goaltending. The PK itself is presumably just as good or bad regardless of who is in net.
In other words, if Gus is the best guy we have, we should be working really fucking hard on keeping his SV% as close to .900 as possible, not running around with shoddy coverage and giving up multipel breakaways.
I’m not trying to say that goalies are unimportant. I’m really just speaking to the argument that a .800 SH SV% is indicative of bad goaltending, not a bad PK.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree we should be working at it
but I don’t think it’s going to make our PK “good” per se. Particularly with the personnel we currently have.
Reimer/Scrivens would be the best thing for our PK, they’ll have a larger impact than “new systems” or “new players”.
Because changing out a .900 ES SV% guy for a .930 ES SV% guy is a 3% improvement… I don’t think trading out one or two players is going to suddenly improve the team’s PK by that 9% range in it’s entirety.
Also – we have good PK guys, we just can’t play them the entire PK. Lombardi, Dupuis, Bozak, Steckel, and Armstrong have all done well this year in spurts, and Phaneuf and Gunnarsson are solid on the back end.
Komisarek, Schenn, Liles, Grabovski, and Kulemin have been generally horrid so far.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I think I'm going to call 3SA on over-interpreting Reimer's relative drop from one year to the other
yes obviously
but then the same could be said of our entire PK.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
3SA
Small Sample Size Alert.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
Great analysis.
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else."
Albert Einstein
by Say *plan the parade one more time*... on Nov 4, 2011 12:11 PM EDT reply actions
It's funny how much I can see you thinking like a social scientist here
Having got used to other types of people analysing sports data there’s a familiar approach in the way you came at breaking down the effects here. It’s like coming home :)
hah
yeah, I know that I do. I treat hockey data (in the way I think about it) in the same way I do about my research. I was tempted to perform partial correlations and regression analyses, but I decided against it. ;)
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
There are some people who say that difference scores are actually bad, and you’re better off using an ANCOVA or regression, and then analysing the residuals… but my attempt to look up sources on this turned up a nice summary article which says it’s controversial, so probably better going with the simpler approach that more people will understand here anyway :)
Are ANCOVA and ANOVA the same thing?
About time that people finally realized how awesome Gunnar is...
Certified Gunnar & Kule lover!
long answer: yes, with an if.
short answer: no, with a but.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 8, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
I prefer studies of this nature
"I will actually score as many times as Kulemin assists me."
-Mikhail Grabovski
by MapleLeafMole on Nov 4, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Great work
I think my only comment, based on the amount of noise in the date, is that the single biggest factor in PK performance is random variation. But I agree this suggests that PK effectiveness drives PK SV%.
"[Phil Kessel]'s as streaky as a flipped coin" - Shift
that’s actually a good point. although, one has to think that with the Leafs being 27th or worse for 4 straight years, there has to be some systematic effect.
but yeah, it’s important not to over-emphasize either goalies, players or coaches when looking at PK performance. they all have an effect. but mostly I’m just speaking to the ‘the PK is bad because of the goalies’ crowd.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
it’s pretty much always like this when you deal with humans though. We’re very messy creatures, and about the best you can ever do is to beat chance guessing by some reasonable margin. Add up enough events (like a seasons worth), though, and things tend to get a bit more reliable. A bit.
exactly. human behavior (and the interactions between them) are complex systems affected by non-linear elements and emergence. so hoping to isolate individual causes is almost impossible.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Very nice
I wish the last plot had come first so I wouldn’t have expended so much mental energy disputing the implied causal direction in statements like “The crappier the PK, the bigger the hit a goalie’s SV% will take while short-handed.”
Like The ‘67 Sound said, random fluctuation dominates Pk Sv% (and therefore also Pk Sv% – EV Sv%). But your last plot does suggest that the team skill plays a small component too — though it’s not completely clear; for a random data set of the size you have here, there’s an 11% chance of seeing a correlation this large just from random chance.
Basically, I think it’s still open to debate whether the team has a significant impact on the goalie save percentage over the sample size observed on the PK. Your data is right on the border of statistical significance in correlation between starter and backup. Another study that looked at the three previous years found the same result, a modest tendency of starter and backup to move together when they go on the PK; however, it also found that the ES/PK correlation for goalies who changed teams was just as high (slightly higher, even) than for goalies who stayed on the same team.
Put together, I’d guess there’s a component from the skaters’ play, but there aren’t enough shots for it to reach a strong statistical significance.
I’d guess that in order, it’s 1) luck, 2) goalie skill, 3) skater suppression of shot totals, and 4) skater suppression of high-percentage shots.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Do you know whether those studies account for the change in SV% as I’m doing here, because if so, it could dramatically alter the interpretation.
Obviously, having better goalies who stop more pucks are going to make for a more effective PK. But they also make for a more effective 5-on-5. So their absolute SH SV% doesn’t really tell us anything about whether the PK is good or bad. It just tells us whether the team is more or less likely to get scored on…
I’ll try to look at those links later today if I have time. I spent too much time on this yesterday so I"m playing catch-up at work today.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope, EV Sv% didn’t come into JLikens’ look at team effects on the PK. He was just looking at how the PK Sv% of the starter and backup compare — if teams whose starters have good PK Sv% tend to also have backups with good PK Sv%, that would suggest that the skaters tend to help limit the dangerous shots.
He started with a simple correlation between starter and backup, but there’s so much variance in PK Sv% that this number being low didn’t mean much.
Then he looked at reliability coefficients (which are like correlation coefficients, but done pairwise between related pieces of data) across years. Basically, he asked “knowing a goalie’s PK Sv% on a certain team in year 1, how well can we predict his PK Sv% in year 2, 3, 4 with that same team? And do our predictions get worse if the goalie moves to a new team?” He found that the predictions are equally good, that switching teams didn’t change the goalie’s PK Sv% at all.
Then he looked at the reliability coefficients between a starter and his backups. He doesn’t quite use enough words for a non-expert like me to understand exactly what this means, but he concluded that this method did suggest an impact of the skaters on save percentage.
Finally, he looked at split-half reliability — given the PK Sv% in half the games in a season, how well can you predict the PK Sv% in the other half? And more importantly, given the difference between starter and backup PK Sv% for half the season, how well can you predict the other half? Again, this suggested some impact of the skaters, as the difference held to some degree from one half of the season to another.
A previous article had seen exactly the same thing at even strength: that looking at whether goalies’ save percentage changes when they move to a new team suggests the team didn’t impact his ES Sv%, but that comparing him to his backups via reliability coefficients or split-half predictions both suggested the team did. However, the effects were larger at ES than on the PK, and different methods gave different answers, so my conclusion is that if there is an effect, it’s not that large.
One thing I like about your look that I don’t think his accounts for is the impact of shot recording bias. An arena that overcounts shots would make both the starter and backup look good, leading him to see a stronger-than-real impact of the skaters, but as long as they overcounted by the same amount at ES and on the PK, that bias should wash out of your data. The downside is that you’re adding in the noise of the ES Sv%, which fluctuates from year to year — maybe taking the goalie’s career ES Sv% as the measure of his talent would improve your analysis of how much he suffers on the PK?
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Looking at career EV SV% would be really interesting. Or maybe a 3 year average? It may make for a better assessment of both 1) how does the team do in general at supporting the goalie and 2) how the PK performs.
I should really calculate these correlations over multiple seasons as well…
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
So basically we can sum up in 3 points
1. A bad keeper will take a PK and move down a few notches.
2. A good keeper will take a PK and move it up a few notches.
3. The most important part of a PK is the 4 (3) men playing in front of the keeper.
As I suspected, the keeper isn’t the most important part of the PK, but he can certainly make an impact (small?) one way or another.
Great analysis.
by RepressedOptimism on Nov 4, 2011 3:18 PM EDT reply actions
I think that pretty much sums it up.
It seems like a trivial conclusion, but I think it’s important to keep in mind, particularly when we’re looking at the 30th PK unit in the league.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said, I don’t think I agree with this conclusion.
The correlation between PK% and PK Sv% is huge. So the question is how much of the PK Sv% is driven by the goalie’s talent, how much is driven by the skaters’ talent, and how much is driven by simple variance.
You’ve shown only a weak correlation between (EV – PK Sv%) for starter and backup — the R^2 of 14.8% suggests that less than 15% of the difference between EV and PK Sv% would arise from the skaters, and the small number of data points makes even that amount subject to question. The other 85% of (EV – PK Sv%) would come from luck or a goalie’s specific skill or other factors that impact the starter and backup differently, and then on top of that you have to factor in the goalie’s actual EV Sv% to figure out the PK Sv%.
I think this supports the argument that the team has an impact on PK success, but not the argument that it’s the most important part.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
I think
due to the randomness of goal scoring in general, and the abnormal game state of a PK, that a lot of it is probably random variation in that 85%.
Also, I wonder whether there’s trends towards some sort of “average” for PK SV%, similar in essence to how PDO regresses over the course of a season.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
I think this is where we’ll disagree.
again, the absence of a correlation between EV SV% and PK% seems to suggest that PK performance is largely independent of a goalie’s skill (either that or some goalies are PK or 5-on-5 specialists).
as i mentioned, the r^2 increases if i remove a few points to about 30%. I’d suspect the real value is probably closer to 25%.
I’d guess that random factors probably count for at least 50%. I would just weigh player performance ahead of goalies for the remaining…
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If they're
all random then your removal of percieved “outliers” isn’t really that relevant to a good analysis though.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
i only removed outliers based on number of games played. SSS issues.
look, before we get into a heated argument here, i’m not trying to provide the definitive answer. just trying to add my piece to the conversation.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
.
again, the absence of a correlation between EV SV% and PK% seems to suggest that PK performance is largely independent of a goalie’s skill (either that or some goalies are PK or 5-on-5 specialists).
To me, it suggests only that PK performance over these tiny samples is largely independent of a goalie’s skill. How many shots are we talking about in a year, 250? It’s like judging a goalie after 10 games.
If you take just the guys who have seen 500+ PK shots in their career and compare career PK Sv% to ES Sv%, you get R^2 of 0.27:

@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
that just means that good goalies are good. it doesn’t mean that they do or don’t make for good/bad PKs.
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by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
OK. but again, that’s not surprising, is it?
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by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
not according to Godel.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 4, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
But your conclusion that “Teams with better goalies only have marginally better PKs. Instead, the PK at the team level seems to largely determine how good (or bad) a goalie is going to do while short handed” suggests the opposite.
I think the impact on PK Sv% goes:
1) Luck
2) Goalie talent
3) Skater talent
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
The correlation between PK% and PK Sv% is huge.
All that means is that goalie skill is important to both. It doesn’t mean that a better or worse PK can’t also significantly help or hinder the goalie. Figure that a correlation of S% and PK S% of .8 (very high) would imply that goaltender skill explains 64% of the variance in performance. That leaves 36% to be explained by some combination of randomness and the skill of the PK skaters in containing the increase in the quality of shots that come in (eating up rebounds, not allowing clean releases with time to aim, etc).
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the skaters have no impact, just that it hasn’t yet been shown to be large.
In your example, 64% of the variance would be from save percentage, some fraction of which comes from goalie talent for stopping shots, some fraction of which comes from skater talent for suppressing quality shots, and some fraction of which comes from simple luck. The R^2 of 0.148 above suggests that the skater talent for suppressing quality shots is no more than 15% of this 64%.
The remaining 36% would come from shot prevention, some fraction of which comes from skater talent and some fraction of which comes from luck. I think the skaters’ role here is probably more important than their role in suppressing the quality of the shots.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
updated based on your new post: If the R^2 is 0.27, that still means that there’s an enormous amount of variation to be explained by the quality of the PK operation in front of the goalie.
And really, you’d EXPECT there to be a correlation here, it’s really just a measure of whether a goaltenders skill and ability reliably predict performance across two highly related circumstances. It’d be shocking if their reflexes and ability to read puck movement suddenly stopped mattering as soon as there was one less skater in front of them.
Heh, my post is for the correlation between career ES Sv% and career PK Sv%, not between in-season PK Sv% and in-season team PK%. The latter would be much higher, because the only factor included in the latter but not the former is shot volume.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Which is funny because that conclusion flies in the face of conventional wisdom which says that the goalie is the most important penalty killer.
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by PPP on Nov 4, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for taking the time to do this and disproving the age old theory of “a goalie is often the team’s best penalty killer”. If you keep hanging him out to dry then you can expect a bad percentage. PK is a team thing, just like the rest of the game. I was always a silent proponent of the quality of a shot, the location and the circumstance. I also don’t think that quality averages out over a season. Some teams d stinks and their goalies are asked to make much harder saves and this goes for all situations. It’s hard to quantify but it’s definitely real.
Raycroft! I like the move. Falls inline with the push for youth and is a solution for the future. Trading Rask was unfortunate, but with Pogge and Raycroft only being 26, I think the TO goaltending future is a bright one. - Some guy from 2006
Hm
I dunno if you read the comments in the thread, but the goalie is still the team’s most important penalty killer. The goalie’s skill level makes up the vast majority of the SV% on the PK, irrespective of the players in front of them.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Nov 4, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
and while
there is “skill” in getting good shots consistently in good situations, the problem is DEFENSE is the part that doesn’t seem to vary drastically from team to team.
That’s why D is so hard to suss out from team to team as an individual skill set.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Nov 4, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting to note how Vokoun on the Panthers last year sported league best .925 SV% on PK but on the capitals this year it is .844. Same goalie but big difference (SSS nonetheless).
Then if you go look at Florida themselves (who are not the same PK player wise) have
Jose Theodore is .813
Jackob Markstrom is .938
This is probably all small sample size but I’m surprised in Vokoun PK Save % change.
It’s more than probably all small sample size. He had 280 PK shots last year. That’s nothing. Lehtonen has faced more total shots than that so far this year and posted a .947 Sv%, but nobody’s talking about records or trophies for him just yet, because they understand that 280 shots is almost meaningless.
Spreading them out over a whole year’s PK doesn’t make the sample size larger or more meaningful, just more spread out.
@BSH_EricT
Writer at Broad Street Hockey
Definite sign
that this sample size is way too small…
12 NHL goalies currently have a higher PK SV% than ES SV%, including the NHL SV% leader Nikolai Khabibulin.
PK SV% is random noise at this point.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
for this season? for sure. these data are from last season.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Nov 5, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions

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