The Curious Case Of Dan Bylsma And Michel Therrien
I don't recall who, but one of the hockey stats guys recently made a remark on Twitter that went along the lines of "Who was the last coach to be fired with a high PDO?" The idea behind that remark was the idea that coaching changes are often made on the basis of a run of bad luck rather than bad underlying statistics (St. Louis earlier this season being a good example). In today's FTB, Van Ryn's Neurologist suggested that the firing of Michel Therrien by the Pittsburgh Penguins in 2008/09 and the subsequent hiring of Dan Bylsma was a counter-example. He challenged anyone to disprove the numbers he had collected, so, being bored and on a train at the time, I decided to do that. What follows is, I would argue, an examination of the role of luck in team success and a look at what kind of effect a coaching change can have on a team's performance at even strength.
It is indeed true that when Michel Therrien was fired by the Pittsburgh Penguins in 2008/09, the team had a high PDO - 1016. Not only that, but once Dan Bylsma came aboard, the team did not have its PDO regress toward 1000 over the rest of the season, as the theory behind PDO might suggest. Instead, it rose; the Penguins' PDO during the portion of the season when Bylsma was the coach was 1028. At first glance, this appears to contradict the theory that many proponents of advanced statistics favour - that a high PDO at one point in the season will regress over time toward 1000, and that this should happen regardless of whether the coach stays the same or not. But I think if we look at the information in a bit more detail, we'll find that that isn't the case. Look at this graph:
| COACH | SV% | SH% | PDO |
| Therrien0809 | 0.916 | 9.89 | 1016 |
| Bylsma0809 | 0.924 | 10.35 | 1028 |
| Bylsma0910 | 0.909 | 8.53 | 995 |
It turns out that during Bylsma's first full season as coach of the Penguins, their PDO did in fact regress, falling below 1000. And yet, the Penguins had a considerably better record with Bylsma as coach than during Therrien's final season. Look at the records:
| COACH | WINS | LOSSES | OT |
| Therrien0809 | 27 | 25 | 5 |
| Bylsma0809 | 18 | 3 | 4 |
| Bylsma0910 | 47 | 28 | 7 |
So what's going on here? The Penguins have a lower shooting percentage and a lower save percentage in Bylsma's first full season, but their record is far better than it was under Therrien. I think I have an explanation for that:
| COACH | CORSI | FENWICK |
| Therrien0809 | 45.8% | 46.7% |
| Bylsma0809 | 51.6% | 52.8% |
| Bylsma0910 | 52.2% | 52.8% |
The effect that Bylsma has on the possession ratios is dramatic and immediate. Almost as soon as Dan Bylsma becomes coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins, they begin dominating puck possession; they go from a team that gets consistently out-shot to a team that consistently out-shoots the opposition.
So what does all this data mean? Here's my interpretation:
PDO, being luck-based, isn't a very solid indicator of how well a team is playing. It doesn't really do a very good job of reflecting how many wins the team was getting. I think the fluctuation that you see from Bylsma's first stretch with the team to his first full season further demonstrates that - the team's PDO falls drastically in 2009/10, and yet the team finished 4th in the conference, just one game behind New Jersey for 2nd in the conference and first in the division. The team's Corsi and Fenwick numbers, however, improve dramatically under Bylsma and remain consistent during the entire time period looked at here.
This is only one coaching change and two seasons worth of data for one team, but the conclusion that it leads to, I think, is that the PDO numbers you see are largely luck-driven and not an indicator of how well the team was playing, while the Corsi and Fenwick numbers are both much more reliable predictors of team success. So did the coaching change affect how well the team played? Yes. But Bylsma didn't make the team shoot more accurately and he didn't make the goalies stop a higher proportion of the shots. What he did do was put in place strategies that allowed the team to dominate puck control, overcoming the fall in the percentages, and making them one of the best teams in the NHL.
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What he did do was put in place strategies that allowed the team to dominate puck control, overcoming the fall in the percentages, and making them one of the best teams in the NHL.
Right. So coaches do have an effect on performance. And that effect is largely independent of PDO. Coaches with a high PDO can get fired, get replaced, see the PDO of the team regress, and yet watch the team improve without them. Clearly evidence that getting rid of the coach (or at least the decision to pick the guy that replaced them) was the right thing to do.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Dec 11, 2011 9:21 PM EST reply actions
I’ve never argued that coaching changes are ineffective. What I believe is that firing a coach with a bad PDO but other good underlying stats is a poor decision, and that much of the improvement the new coach sees in that case is due to a regression in luck.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 11, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
Also, I think this case makes a pretty good argument that Corsi is better than percentages for evaluating how well a team is playing.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 11, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, but in the case of the Leafs, if they have bad underlying stats, then the fact that they have a bad PDO doesn’t mean that replacing the coach isn’t a good decision. doesn’t it instead mean that PDO is essentially irrelevant to the discussion?
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Dec 11, 2011 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
BTW, I’m rec’ing this cause I’m glad you did this. I’m glad I can provoke the discussion, even if only because everyone’s trying to tell me how wrong I am all the time.
Move along. Nothing to see here...
by Van Ryn's Neurologist on Dec 11, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
Right. So coaches do have an effect on performance. And that effect is largely independent of PDO.
I’m not convinced this is the case. I think high or low PDOs will go towards 1000 (+/- a small amount to account for goaltending) over time, but seems to be like there are some catalysts that will make that happen more quickly, a coaching change being one of them (Boudreau in 07-08, Bylsma in 08-09, Lemaire in 10-11, Hitchcock this season). I don’t think PDO is all coinflip-esque puck luck, but I do think there are some elements of “tension in the locker room” or “holding sticks too tightly” or “the system isn’t working but the coach is sticking with it instead of making adjustments” going on there as well.
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by red army line on Dec 15, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Really cool, nice work.
Curious, did you do the Corsi, Fenwick and PDO numbers yourself or is their a database for that?
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by pho king awesome on Dec 11, 2011 9:28 PM EST reply actions
I grabbed most of the data from timeonice.com, then I did some arithmetic with the numbers myself. It’s kind of a time consuming process, to be honest, and I probably wouldn’t have done it except that I was on a train and didn’t have anything better to do.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 11, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t figure out timeonice.com how do you know the game numbers? Anyways nice work
@phoking_awesome
my blog, "The Silver Fox", check it out!
by pho king awesome on Dec 11, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
how do you know the game numbers?
NHL.com, go to schedule and find the game recap. Look in the URL. For example, Anaheim-Phoenix from last night:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/recap.htm?id=2011020450&navid=sb:recap
Ignore the first five digits of “id=”, so your game ID is 20450.
Also, shameless self-plug for how to use TOI.
Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
I believe in next year.
by red army line on Dec 15, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
Great stuff
Also, yes, Bylsma is a much better coach than Therrien. Bylsma kept it simple and found commong ground with Mike Yeo at the time.
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by Mislav Xterratu Jantoljak on Dec 12, 2011 1:12 PM EST reply actions
To be fair, PDO was never intended to point out how well a team was playing.
Only how lucky they were/are. PDO should, at most, temper your expectations for a team, not dictate your assessment of them. At best, all of these advanced statistics are complementary, and PDO is no exception.
Watching Keith Aulie play last year, for example, I saw a young defenseman turn the puck over, make slow (and rather unfortunate) decisions in his own zone, and get positionally exposed without much in the way of speed to make up for it. Some of his numbers looked great, but his PDO was just one thing that helped confirm for me that he still had a lot of growing to do. The fact that he had a PDO of 1024 in and of itself didn’t mean he wasn’t playing well – just that his numbers might not look as good as they did last year with different luck.
Not followin' @JPNikota on Twitter? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'.
To be clear,
I realize that VRN and draglikepull understand this, but not everyone’s already so into advanced statistics, and I think that this is something that could have been emphasized here.
Not followin' @JPNikota on Twitter? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'.
So if PDO is high, that means you are lucky? But isn’t it a function of SV% and SH%? What if you are just good? Shouldn’t good teams have a higher PDO anyway? The average tends to 1, but when you look at individual teams or players, there’s no reason to think it would, seems to me.
by Leaf in Habland on Dec 12, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
Over time it tends to regress toward 1000 on an individual player basis. It’s theoretically possible that “good” teams will have higher PDOs because they’re good, but even on a team level there is still a tendency for it to regress. The Penguins, as mentioned in this post, are a great example – they actually won more games with a lower PDO.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Internet Champ. I'm on Twitter too! - draglikepull
by Draglikepull on Dec 12, 2011 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Excellent work
this speaks back to the point I was trying to make about Minnesota, Boston, and the Rangers so far this season. All 3 teams have abnormally high PDO numbers right now (i.e. lots of luck) but their Fenwick % are very low.
Boston and NYR might stay up a tad because of their high SV% being sustainable due to the likes of Thomas and Lundqvist, but I doubt they both keep shooting over 10% at ES. On the other side is Minnesota who have the lowest Fenwick % while tied on the road and yet are boasting a .945 team ES SV%. That won’t sustain itself.
They’re going to crash and burn eventually, despite the fact that after 30 games they’re in 1st place.
On the flip side of the coin are Colorado who are only shooting around 6% at ES and yet have very good Fenwick % numbers, and to a lesser extent LA, who aren’t as good from a Fenwick % perspective, but are shooting only 5.9% at ES.
They’ll likely improve and make their new coach look good (whoever he is if not John Stevens long term).
Either way, the PDO as luck thing explains a lot. St. Louis was a great example of underlying numbers that indicated they weren’t as bad as they looked, while the PDO thing was working against them.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."
- Sir Winston Churchill
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Leafs.
by Steve Burtch on Dec 13, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
sometimes your superstar player also shuts off the head coach and stops listening
I think that was a factor with Crosby and Therrien and also with Ovi and round boy Bruce in Washington
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